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Michael Fross
09-30-2005, 8:03 AM
Hello everyone,

I'm starting to get into hand tools (I'm actually very excited) and have been reading quite a bit in preparation for purchasing my first plane. I've decided on an LV smoother, but I'm a bit confused by the differences between the BU smoother and the low angle smoother. They seem very similair with the exception of the blade angle and, based on the catalog picture, the ability to shoot.

It's my understanding that for smoothing, you would typically want a larger bevel to better handle tough grain, and was thinking that the 38deg was about right.

This is a big purchase for me and I'm probably over analyzing, but I want to make sure I choose the right plane. The #4 and BU smoother seem to be the two I'm choosing between and both are the same price.

Any thoughts our guidence would be appreciated.

Thank you very much. I've recently discoved this forum and this is actually my first post.

Regards,

Michael

Karl Laustrup
09-30-2005, 8:25 AM
Welcome Mike. Lots of very savvy people here.

I'll be watching this thread closely as I'm about ready to take the plunge also.

I have several planes that I want eventually. The hard part is deciding which to go with first. Of course then you need a good sharpening system, which I've already decided on, but haven't purchased. All in all this first jump to neander is probably going to be about 1k.

Karl

Gary Herrmann
09-30-2005, 8:35 AM
Its heavier, and a bit wider, which is a good thing for smoothers (Derek or any other experts may want to verify this). Also, the blade will be interchangeable with the LA jack and the LA jointer. I have the smoother and jack and am quite pleased with them. Asking Santa to bring me the jointer for Christmas. While you're at it, buy the high angle blade if you're going to be planing highly figured woods.

Altho, if this is your first plane, I wonder if you'd get more utility from the LA Jack with all 3 blades?

Almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Mark Singer
09-30-2005, 8:41 AM
I had the very same question and asked Gene Collison in a PM. He has all of the LV bevel up planes. I think he favors the BUS which is larger. The low angle smoother he uses for end grain now. I don't think you need both and you may not need a #4 right away either. I would start wit the BUS and go from there. The LV bevel up planes seem to be generally liked more than their convention planes. I have the Jack and the jointer and the are both excellent.

Derek Cohen
09-30-2005, 9:00 AM
..I've decided on an LV smoother, but I'm a bit confused by the differences between the BU smoother and the low angle smoother .... It's my understanding that for smoothing, you would typically want a larger bevel to better handle tough grain, and was thinking that the 38deg was about right..

Hi Michael

Let's take separately the three issues you raise.

(1) LV LA Smoother vs LV BU Smoother: These are both exceptionally good at planing difficult grain. Both are capable of the finest performance. Both perform about equally. Both can use a wide range of blades with as many cutting angles as you can think of. These are the similarities. The differences are that the LAS has a wider range of uses, such as being able to perform on a shooting board as well (the BUS cannot). The LAS is smaller and lighter (#4 size) and some prefer the more immediate "feel" it offers. THe BUS, on the other hand, is larger and heavier (#4 1/2 size), and offers a greater degree of control on difficult timber. The extra heft creates greater momentum. Lastly, the BUS also shares blades with the LA Jack and BU Jointer, so it makes a "system" more cost-effective. The LAS does not share blades with any other plane.

(2) I do not subscribe to the notion that a wider board requires a wider plane. The difference in width here is 1/4" in any event (2" LAS vs 2 1/4" BUS). Also the thickness of the blades is really not significant, and Rob Lee will be the first to admit that 1/8" is sufficient and anything over that is hype (1/8" LAS vs 3/16" BUS).

(3) The cutting angle makes a huge difference - depending on the timber being planed. The greater the degree of interlinked grain, the higher the cutting angle needs to be. If I were choosing two blade angles for the LAS it would be 25 degrees (=37 degree cutting angle) for end grain on a shooting board, and 50 degrees (=62 degree cutting angle) for difficult grain. For the BUS it would be 37 degrees (=49 degree cutting angle) for medium density timber) and 50 degrees (as before).

I should mention that these angles are chosen partly because they are available on the LV Honing Guide Mk II.

Take a look at the recent review I wrote on the BUS, in which I did investigate the differences between these two planes.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~derekcohen/reviews/bus/index.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Michael Fross
09-30-2005, 10:32 AM
Its heavier, and a bit wider, which is a good thing for smoothers (Derek or any other experts may want to verify this). Also, the blade will be interchangeable with the LA jack and the LA jointer. I have the smoother and jack and am quite pleased with them. Asking Santa to bring me the jointer for Christmas. While you're at it, buy the high angle blade if you're going to be planing highly figured woods.

Altho, if this is your first plane, I wonder if you'd get more utility from the LA Jack with all 3 blades?

Almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
I thought about the LA Jack Plane. I've very little experience (hence my post) but everything I've read says the #4 or #4 1/2 smooth plane is the most used plane in the shop. Seemed like a good place to start. But if a jack does a pretty good job of smoothing and can be used for some jointing work, that makes sense. Especially with the ability to share irons with the dedicated smoother and jointer.

Can folks comment on using the jack plane for these activities?

Thanks for all the help. This is great.

Michael

Derek Cohen
09-30-2005, 11:10 AM
... if a jack does a pretty good job of smoothing and can be used for some jointing work, that makes sense. Especially with the ability to share irons with the dedicated smoother and jointer.

Can folks comment on using the jack plane for these activities?


Michael

Using a "long" plane as a smoother means that the surface you are smoothing has to be flat, otherwise you will have to reduce the surface until it is flat enough to plane. The shorter the plane, the less the surface is required to be flat in order to smooth it.

The LV LA Jack can make a fine smoother. It has the same blade, mouth and bedding as the BU Smoother. But it is a long plane and would be better suited to surfaces that are already quite flat, such as boards that have gone through a power jointer. It is a lot less work to smooth timber with a shorter smoothing plane, such as the BUS or LAS.

The #4 and #4 1/2 are the same lengths as the LAS and BUS, respectively. However they are different concepts, being bevel down planes. You need to decide whether you want a bevel up or bevel down plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Alex Yeilding
09-30-2005, 12:12 PM
All in all this first jump to neander is probably going to be about 1k.

Karl, I don't doubt that your initial jump into neandering will be that much, and it might be exactly the right approach for you.

But I wouldn't want someone considering greater hand tool use to read that as the minimum price of entry. It can be much less.

Buying new versus buying old and fixing up is a subject for another thread, and the answer will be different for each individual. But clearly, you can get into hand planes for a LOT less than $1,000 by getting a vintage plane from a reputable dealer and starting to sharpen with scary sharp, only buying stones when you decide you will do this enough that they will be more economical.

Michael Fross
10-09-2005, 8:06 PM
I'd like to thank everyone for their help on my first plane purchases. I bought a used Stanley #4C sweatheart smoothing plane. It'll need a little work, but should be fine. It won't arrive for a few days, so I might have a few old plane fix up questions. However, I've read Hack's plane book and have Blackburn's hand tools book which both describe tuning an old plane.

I'm also going to pick up the Veritas block plane next weekend. Should be a good start.

Thanks again.

Michael

Mike Wenzloff
10-09-2005, 9:01 PM
Nice plane to get, Michael!

Mike

Gary Herrmann
10-09-2005, 9:16 PM
Hey Michael, where in Chi are you? I was born there. Grew up on Narragansett - about 7 miles from Wrigley. Needless to say, being in STL now, I get a lot of grief from my friends and neighbors about being a Cubs fan. I root for the Cards as well, but I just can't give up on my childhood team. Being a Cubs fan = building karma. Or maybe just patience...

Oh, and congrats on your new plane. I've got a couple of old Stanleys I inherited that I hope to clean up this winter.

Michael Fross
10-09-2005, 9:46 PM
Hey Michael, where in Chi are you? I was born there. Grew up on Narragansett - about 7 miles from Wrigley. Needless to say, being in STL now, I get a lot of grief from my friends and neighbors about being a Cubs fan. I root for the Cards as well, but I just can't give up on my childhood team. Being a Cubs fan = building karma. Or maybe just patience...

Hello Gary. I now live in one of the Western suburbs. But I did live a few blocks south of Wrigley for many years. I miss the city and hope to move back there one day.