Irwin expansive bit no 22

[Tomi Rosso]

Again little question of age estimation. I got Irwin bit no 22. There was also remais of original cardboard box. I am always interested, when my tools are made and this is not exception. And because it's made in usa, so you are best source of this kind of answers.

If I am correct, this kind of bit was patented at 1940. Or that dialing mechanism is. Anyway, how long this kind of box is used? That gives already quite good hunch of age.

BR,
TR

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Tomi,

My answer is close to a wild guess if anything. There are two .pdfs of Irwin booklets on my computer. One is dated 1939 the other 1951. Neither have the Irwin in italics as is on your bit. Neither of them show a #22 bit though both have expansive bits. Some of my bits do have the red painted shanks, but those are Stanley Handyman bits. The 1939 booklet has Irwin in block letters. The 1951 booklet has most with the box around the name and a few with block letters.

Not sure, but my guess is they are likely from the 1960s.

Maybe someone has a set with a later dated booklet that might help determine a date.

Here is a link to the page with the 1939 booklet:

http://toolemera.com/Books%20%26%20Booklets/booksuseoftools.html

Here is a link to the 1951 booklet:

http://www.woodworkslibrary.com/repository/how_to_select_and_care_for_bits1951.pdf

Maybe someone can come up with other years.

I did find a set that already sold on Etsy with the same shank logo and the same box. I do not think the terms of service allow me to post that link. If you are interested send me a PM.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I can't comment on the box.

I have an Irwin expansion bit. I've only used it a couple of times. It is a bit awkawrd to use.
Maybe I should try it again.

[John Vernier]

Note that the box is marked "Copyright 1924." - and that the artwork is certainly old fashioned by 1920s standards, even more so for later decades. Whether the box is original to this bit is another matter - are there any side labels on the box?

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with the comments on the graphics. My guess is that they figured that their new product was so futuristic that they needed to bring back the old box to show they had been around a while and could be depended on to "make this dream a reality". Take care of the box ,it's a nice piece much more rare than the bit.

[Tomi Rosso]

Thanks Jim very much. I have found that toolemera booklet already, but that second was new to me. Quite interesting.

I have found quite many selling advertisement which contains bit number 22 or 21 and this same kind of cardboard box. So I think that box could be original. There was also those bits in plastic case at some adds.

There should be sticker, which contains info of the bit in right end of the box, but of course that end is missing from mine. Box is quite rough looking bastard, but that was nice bonus still. And outlook is quite nice too.

That patent is for micro-dial system and it looks just same than in that one. But I don't know exactly which kind of construction was those first expansion bits. If I am right there was no 1 and 2. And maybe more, that is not clear to me.

I haven't tested that bit yet. I have to sharpen it first. But It look that I can make it work again. I have used this kind of bit only with electrical drill before, so I don't know how it behaves. That one with electric drill does not leave so nice finnish, but bit construction was little bit different.

BR,
TR

[lowell holmes]

I have to sharpen it first. But It look that I can make it work again. I have used this kind of bit only with electrical drill before, so I don't know how it behaves. That one with electric drill does not leave so nice finnish, but bit construction was little bit different.

BR,
TR

I sharpened mine with a flat saw file.

[Jim Koepke]

I would try it in a brace before trying to sharpen it. An auger bit can quickly become unusable from improper sharpening. I know, I have done it.

From the 1939 catalog it looks like the micro-dial bits may have had a vernier type dial that could make adjustments down 1/1000 of an inch according to the pamphlet.

Some of the bits had the cutter sliding in and out without a dial.

The pamphlet claims "Irwin also manufactures many other brands of Expansive Bits... "

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I would try it in a brace before trying to sharpen it.
jtk

I agree with that.

If it's necessary to sharpen, a saw file will sharpen the inside surfaces of the cutting spur.

[Tomi Rosso]

That longer sliding section was take little bit abuse, but nothing serious. Probably don't have to touch that bit itself at all.

That 1/1000 inch accuracy sound little bit funny when it's stepless dialing system in question. :) But I know, that means this scale. That stepless selector gives me that advantage that I can use metric holes again. I got several C.I. Falls auger bit sets, but they are all goddam imperial. :D

Edit: I probably found that same add what Jim mentioned. End of shank is painted red and Irwin text in shank is at capital letters and skewed. Only that box is different than mine.

[Rob Luter]

I think the box is a pretty standard Irwin design that was used for many years. Here's a set of Augers I found in an Antique Store a while back. I guessed they were from the 1940's or 1950's, but could be a bit newer. The artwork appears the same.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3930/15436814915_a479a87389_h.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

My understanding is copyrights run much longer than patents. Usually if a product has a patent date it can be dated to within 15 or so years to the date. My understanding of copyright is blurred by how often the law has been changed. (mostly to protect the rights to one very well known mouse) My recollection is it was originally 75 years. That could be wrong.

Rob, It looks like there are at least two distinct variations on the markings on your bits, both in the branding and the stamping of the numbers on the tangs.

It may just be the angles of light and camera, but the bit between the #7 and #8 looks a bit different from the #7 yet does not look to be a #8.


That 1/1000 inch accuracy sound little bit funny when it's stepless dialing system in question.

From what I gathered in the add it was made to be able to set without checking which would imply a vernier scale incorporated into the dial.

Are their metric bits available from Europe? I have always wondered about that. For automotive work my wrenches are used somewhat interchangeably. Some sizes just do not translate, like 10mm or 3/8".


I probably found that same add what Jim mentioned. End of shank is painted red and Irwin text in shank is at capital letters and skewed. Only that box is different than mine.

I haven't seen that ad, if you have a link, I would appreciate it.

When it comes to boxes, their are often separated and later end up in a mismatched marriage with a different container. There is also the situation where a manufacturer changes the pattern of an item or a marking punch or brand marker wears out. Then there is a lot of items in stock with an old logo and some with the new logo blended in set shipped to the distributers and retailers. For the type set theorists, finding a box of these with a dated receipt inside is like hitting the mother lode.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

.......Rob, It looks like there are at least two distinct variations on the markings on your bits, both in the branding and the stamping of the numbers on the tangs.

It may just be the angles of light and camera, but the bit between the #7 and #8 looks a bit different from the #7 yet does not look to be a #8.


Yup, the stamps are a little different. The 9 and the 10 are upside down compared to the rest. They're marked (L to R) 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.

[lowell holmes]

I have my Dad's boxed set. There are 13 bits, #2 through #16. They are sharp and do a great job. I only have three braces. One is Bell Telephone brace.

[Jim Koepke]

I have my Dad's boxed set. There are 13 bits, #2 through #16. They are sharp and do a great job. I only have three braces. One is Bell Telephone brace.

Lowell, Is that a typo? Usually a 13 bit set starts with a #4. A #3 bit is rather rare. I do not know if there were any #2 bits.

jtk

[Tomi Rosso]

My understanding is copyrights run much longer than patents. Usually if a product has a patent date it can be dated to within 15 or so years to the date. My understanding of copyright is blurred by how often the law has been changed. (mostly to protect the rights to one very well known mouse) My recollection is it was originally 75 years. That could be wrong.

I noticed several from ebay, that they are selling those at 1924 made. Little bit misleading, but as always it stays at reader, what he believes and what not.


Are their metric bits available from Europe?

I don't know about Irwin bits, but yes we have also metric bits. It still seems imperial bits are much more easier to find. I have couple of german made bits which are metric. All others which I have are those Swedish made C.I. Falls and those are all imperial. Or at least those which I have.

[lowell holmes]

Jim,

You are correct. They do start with #4. I don't know what I was thinking when I made the post. However, they are a fantastic collection.
Particularly when I put them in my Stanley Bell Systems Brace.:)

[Tomi Rosso]

This kind of picture popped up when do little bit searching. I can't say how this 1942 is concluded, but if looking picture, there are paper inside which says 1942 and something more. But often if year is totally pulled out from a hat, it's patent year or like this case many times that copyright date 1924.

But in picture there are missing just that spot in label, so could be that seller remembered date wrong and typed that paper "mistakenly" wrong.

But still, box, red painted shank end and cravings looked quite same. But too small picture, that could say for sure.

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