Handmade

[Phil Mueller]

The recent post regarding Woodsmith, got me to thinking about how handmade is defined. Apparently, it's open to great interpretation, although occassionally challenged by the FTC. Below is just one snip of info. This has apparently been an issue with Esty for sometime. Recently they revised their definition to include hand assembled and hand altered.

It would suggest that "manually-controlled methods" would include woodworking machines. But Esty does discourage "mass production"; a cabinet making factory would not be able to post as "hand made", but an individual using the same methods could. Although, they are considering (or already have) loosened that definition as well. Very confusing.

"It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product."
It continues:
"It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.

[lowell holmes]

What is your point?

[Art Mann]

As far as I'm concerned, the term means nothing. I always just tell people how I made my stuff.

[Pat Barry]

So if you use a circular saw or a jig saw or a cordless drill it's not handmade?

[Brian Holcombe]

I tend to agree, the term has lost much of its meaning since it is so commonly used. I think the images conjured up in ones mind of what 'handmade' equates to is far from the reality of most 'handmade' product.

Anymore even using the term suggests that a product would like to be considered handmade more than it actually is. Many who actually make by hand have gone toward painstakingly documenting their processes in order to illustrate how much of the product is made by hand. John Lobb Bookmaker is a good example, whose taken to providing a step by step of how a pair of their shoes are made (by hand).

This is why I have a blog depicting exactly what it is that I do to make a product.

[Stewie Simpson]

The same can be said within a number of online boutique saw maker advertising. They state that the saw teeth have been hand sharpened, but fail to mention that the saw teeth were punched out prior too, (not hand filed) using an automatic machine such as a Foley. Its a case of how far you want to interpret the truth.

[Frederick Skelly]

We've had this debate here before and it's an interesting one to me. I think it's sort of a spectrum. On one extreme, is the obviously hand made stuff - where you harvest the tree with an axe, use a froe, wedges, hand powered saw, etc to turn it into usable materials for the project, and then use nothing but hand tools to prep, shape and assemble the parts. On the other extreme (and I admit this is debatable) is where everything is 'as mechanized as possible' - here, everything is done with power tools except the physical assembly - chain saws, band saws, electric jointers, planers, CNC routers, electric sanders, etc. I bet most can agree this extreme can't really be called 'hand made'.

But is it hand made, if I buy S4S lumber and do the rest with hand tools? Probably, or at least maybe. Is it hand made if I buy S4S, cut some parts on a bandsaw and then use a spindle sander to smooth the curves? Maybe, but maybe not. So I can see where folks like Art are coming from when they say the term is meaningless.

In my own (hobby) projects, if I want to tout the parts that were 'hand made', I get rather specific (like Phil's post describes), saying 'hand cut joinery' or 'hand scraped and hand rubbed finish', etc. That's truthful and accurate. But it might still be meaningless. Dunno - what do you folks think?

Fred

[lowell holmes]

I can and have made items completely by hand. I don't feel any great challenge to do so.

However, having been able to develop hand skills is important to me. I am pleased to have the ability to pretty much perform any operation with hand tools.
I may do the rough shaping of a project such as squaring and planing wood to thickness by machine, but I then I may not. It depends on the circumstance and the mood I'm in at the moment. :)

Phil, I didn't mean to be offensive with my remark. It was important to me at one time to be able to do something by hand, but with advancing age it does not mean as much anymore.

[Prashun Patel]

Far more important for me is well made and well designed. While I am in great admiration of those who have great hand skills, it is only because I aspire to do what they do. When I wear my consumer hat I am really more concerned with design and quality of the end product.

[lowell holmes]

Stewie,

I did buy a saw kit from Ron Bontz and made a 20" long tenon saw. It is a 12tpi rip saw that cuts straight and fast. He cut the teeth but I filed and sharpened them.

The saw cuts tenons straight and fast. I made the handle, but purchased the saw nuts from Ron.

Is my saw a "home made saw"? :)

[Phil Mueller]

No offense taken at all, Lowell. I did just kind of throw it out there. It's interesting to me, as it can be quite difficult for some to compete, or even justify value crafting items they believe to be "handmade" when the definition appears to be a moving or very nebulous target.

Recently Makers Mark got into trouble for advertising that it was handmade using some kind of old mill process, when in fact it was distilled using modern equipment. Clearly this is deception. But when someone uses their hands to push a piece of lumber through a table saw, is that not handmade...

I found one article interesting that showed a chinees stuffed animal factory where material was hand cut (with scissors), hand stitched (no sewing machine), hand stuffed (no machine), yet was not allowed to indicate that their products were handmade on Esty....because they are a factory with 4000 employees.

[Steve Voigt]

So if you use a circular saw or a jig saw or a cordless drill it's not handmade?

The Etsy guidelines Phil posted clearly don't suggest this. I'll repeat the relevant portion, lightly edited:


It is unfair or deceptive to represent … that any industry product is hand-made … unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

"Manually-controlled" pretty clearly refers to machines. The determinative part is not hand vs. machine tools; it's the ability to "control and vary…each individual product." So of course a cordless drill would be fine, because you can "vary each product" by putting the hole wherever you want. Same for a tablesaw or any other common machine. I would even say a CNC mill or lathe would meet the guidelines, as long as the programmer and operator were the same person, and that person could make changes to the program when needed. When I worked in a machine shop years ago, I'd sometimes use a CNC mill to make a single part. Using CNC controls didn't hamper my ability to "control and vary" each part.

What wouldn't count is a situation where the machine operator is an unskilled laborer who loads parts into a machine that was programmed by someone else, spitting out parts that were designed by someone else. That's the difference.



I found one article interesting that showed a chinese stuffed animal factory where material was hand cut (with scissors), hand stitched (no sewing machine), hand stuffed (no machine), yet was not allowed to indicate that their products were handmade on Esty....because they are a factory with 4000 employees.

Here too, I think the guidelines are pretty clear, and logical as well. If there are 4000 employees, it's a given that each employee is just performing a set task, probably pretty limited one, over and over. Such as cutting out a pattern, sewing two pieces together, adding the stuffing. If the employee decides to get creative and change the pattern, chaos would ensue and the employee would probably be fired. So, even though the work is done by hand, the employee has no ability to, once again, "control and vary" the individual product.

I have to say, I think the Etsy guidelines are pretty good. (I have no affiliation with Etsy and never shop there)

[george wilson]

In machine shop work,there is a term "Hand machined". This means the item was made on a manual,not CNC machine. All the operations were made by the operator moving dials and handles himself. Frequently this also means that the item is a "one off" piece.

[David Carroll]

I tend to think of the term "hand made" as being a "one-off" made by one person, as opposed to something mass produced. The specific tools (powered vs. hand tools) used in the process are to me less relevant than the design, execution and finishing.

That said, I do take special pride in those projects where all the work was done with hand tools. The folks who wind up with the stuff I make don't really know the difference. But it makes me happy when I start off with rough timber and make something beautiful.

[Robert Engel]

Hand made/hand crafted .... In the days before electricity, it would be very easy to define, and therein lies the true definition.

Its very blurry now. Guys want to take credit for something a CNC machine made.

[Steve Voigt]

In machine shop work,there is a term "Hand machined". This means the item was made on a manual,not CNC machine. All the operations were made by the operator moving dials and handles himself. Frequently this also means that the item is a "one off" piece.

I had, in the past,plenty of experience as a professional machinist and I have never heard this term. It doesn't make much sense to me. Cranking handles is the least skilled part of running a machine. It doesn't matter if the table is fed by my hand, by the servo motors on a manual mill's power feed, or by a computer. And, as I mentioned before, I have made many one-off parts on a CNC mill. I have also done production runs in the hundreds on manual machines. No machinist I've ever met would care; the only consideration would be if the set up time need for NC outweighed the slower run time of a manual machine.

[David Carroll]

Well, not to get too far off topic, but I think of machining the same way as George, machining by hand vs. CNC machining. I do it by hand because we don't have CNC equipment, just old school equipment in our machine shop. I'm the only one who knows how to use it and we mostly only do development work and prototypes.

I dont really make a value judgement hand vs CNC, but the old timers, who trained me 25 years ago did. But for production work and repeatability, hard to beat the CNC mills.

DC

[James Pallas]

IMHO handmade means exactly what it has always ment. If a woodworker does the work from the log to finished product it is handmade. If a seamstress takes it from the cloth to the finished product it is handmade. If a smith takes it from the iron bar to the finished product it is handmade. I think everyone knows the meaning. We also know that there are many attempts at deception in today's world. If you buy a pile of wooden spoons from a factory and then hand carve a few wheat leaves on the handle and then market it as handmade then IMHO you are a deceiver. You could market it as factory made with hand carved decorations but that would defeat the handmade deception that could possibly make it worth more.
Jim

[george wilson]

Steve,the term "hand machined" is common enough. I am surprised that you haven't heard it.Some of the items I have posted,like the spindle with ivory bobbins and brass flyer would be referred to as "hand machined". Some parts,such as the brass flyer were by necessity,fully hand made. But,some parts,like the bobbin and the spindle are lathe turned on an individual basis.

The steel acorn shown below,I did with a combination of manual lathe with normal tooling,and some freehand turning tools,like you would turn wood. Being all curves,freehand turning was the only way to make these on a manual lathe. The bobbin and flyer were for an 18th. C.. spinning wheel of the grade used by wealthy ladies as a hobby. Spare parts are impossible to buy,and must be made. This was also done with normal type tooling on a manual metal lathe,along with lathe filing,and some freehand turning as well. The flyer and bobbin assembly in front is the original.

I don't know how to use CNC equipment. But,I have seen a friend,who runs a machine shop at NASA in Hampton,take hours to program a complex part. Then,the CNC machine made the one off part in 20 minutes.

If you hung out on the "Practical Machinist" forum,you'd see the term used sometimes. I agree,in an non artistic,production shop,guys only care which gets the job done sooner,for the maximum payoff.

I would have to class myself as an "artist machinist",which is definitely a term I invented. But,with my unusual museum back ground,and with the unusual things I have been commissioned to make,most times there is as much artistry as machining involved,as in the brass surveyor's compass below. You won't see things like this being made in an ordinary shop. This compass took me 4 or 5 months to make. It combined machining,hand filing,engraving,woodworking and hand polishing that went on for 9 days.

I hope these examples will help you understand the terms "hand machined" and "artist machinist". Ordinary machine shops would look at you like you were crazy if you walked in and asked them to make these objects,and to this quality.

[Steve Voigt]

Well, not to get too far off topic, but I think of machining the same way as George, machining by hand vs. CNC machining. I do it by hand because we don't have CNC equipment, just old school equipment in our machine shop. I'm the only one who knows how to use it and we mostly only do development work and prototypes.

I dont really make a value judgement hand vs CNC, but the old timers, who trained me 25 years ago did. But for production work and repeatability, hard to beat the CNC mills.

DC

Well, I don't want to keep beating this drum, but you guys have the wrong idea about CNC machining. It is not at all like the difference between hand tool and power tool woodworking. It objectively takes more skill to dimension a board with a hand saw and a hand plane than to do the same task with a tablesaw, tailed jointer, and lunchbox planer. Whereas to be good at programming and running a CNC mill or lathe, you need to be proficient at doing the same tasks on a manual machine first (there are people who aren't, but they tend to get flummoxed by small problems rather quickly IME). To run a CNC mill, you need to know everything about running a manual mill, plus you need to be able to program.

It is also, as I have said three times now, not about production and repeatability vs. one-offs. Suppose you need to put a bunch of 2.470" (or other odd size) holes in an aluminum plate. You'll probably drill them and then set up the boring head, a fairly slow operation. Someone with a CNC will just cut them with an end mill, in one operation. Suppose you need to cut 6" diameter circle, off-center, in the same plate. You'll need to take it over to a large lathe and dial it in on the 4-jaw, or use a rotary table on the mill if you've got one that's big enough. The NC guy will just cut it with an end mill; it will take about a minute to program. Have you ever had to cut an ellipse? Laborious and downright scary on a lathe, easy on an NC mill. There are many situations where making a one-off part is faster on an NC than on a manual machine. Of course, a good machinist will know when to use one and when to use the other. In the shop I trained in, the two best manual machinists, by a mile, were also the only two guys there who knew how to program (and who taught me everything I know about both manual and CNC machining).

Apologies to Phil, the OP, for derailing his thread. Though I must say, I am pretty amused at defending CNC in this thread, after defending hand tools in the other one. Go figure.

[Pat Barry]

IMHO handmade means exactly what it has always ment. If a woodworker does the work from the log to finished product it is handmade. If a seamstress takes it from the cloth to the finished product it is handmade. If a smith takes it from the iron bar to the finished product it is handmade. I think everyone knows the meaning. We also know that there are many attempts at deception in today's world. If you buy a pile of wooden spoons from a factory and then hand carve a few wheat leaves on the handle and then market it as handmade then IMHO you are a deceiver. You could market it as factory made with hand carved decorations but that would defeat the handmade deception that could possibly make it worth more.
Jim
This definition makes little sense. Starting point is sawing the tree down? But the seamstress gets by starting with cloth? Seems to me she should have picked the cotton first. Lol

[James Pallas]

This definition makes little sense. Starting point is sawing the tree down? But the seamstress gets by starting with cloth? Seems to me she should have picked the cotton first. Lol
:p I didn't say that a woodworker had to cut down the tree with an ax and drag it out of the forest, without the help of mules or horses either. :D
Jim

[george wilson]

Even in the cabinet shop in Williamsburg,which has been the ultimate hand workshop,they are able to start with rough sawn wood,just as they did even in the dark ages in Europe. Sawing planks from logs has always been a separate trade from making furniture,or whatever, from it.

Wood for musical instruments is still supplied in the traditional sizes and thicknesses that it has been for hundreds of years.

[Art Mann]

According to your example about cutting down a tree, the seamstress should also pick the cotton, spin it into thread, weave it into cloth and then make something out of it. The blacksmith should also operate the furnace that melts and refines the iron. You need to be consistent in your examples. By the way, how many people do you think fell their own trees and saw and dry the lumber? According to your definition, the number of people who hand make something is a very tiny percentage of all woodworkers.


IMHO handmade means exactly what it has always ment. If a woodworker does the work from the log to finished product it is handmade. If a seamstress takes it from the cloth to the finished product it is handmade. If a smith takes it from the iron bar to the finished product it is handmade. I think everyone knows the meaning. We also know that there are many attempts at deception in today's world. If you buy a pile of wooden spoons from a factory and then hand carve a few wheat leaves on the handle and then market it as handmade then IMHO you are a deceiver. You could market it as factory made with hand carved decorations but that would defeat the handmade deception that could possibly make it worth more.
Jim

[John Schtrumpf]

:p I didn't say that a woodworker had to cut down the tree with an ax and drag it out of the forest, without the help of mules or horses either. :D
Jim
Which is why you should always cut your wood in the winter. It is much easier to drag the logs out of the forest, when you can roll them on to a toboggan in the snow. :)

[george wilson]

As I just mentioned,the trades of weaving,and sawing wood were separate trades. Others were usually not permitted to weave their own cloth or saw their own wood. This strict division of labor protected the incomes of those involved in it.

In America the trades were not always so rigorously protected. Certainly they were in England and Europe.

Ladies were able to spin their own thread,but weaving even in this country was a man's job. So,women did not weave their own cloth.

No blacksmith ever smelted his own iron. The different trades had their secrets,which were most often jealously guarded. Thus,it was difficult for encyclopedists like Diderot to always get truthful and accurate information. Generally,his illustrations were fairly accurate,since he could see the tools and devices used. He did draw a picture of a completely spuriously strutted harpsichord soundboard.

[Steve Voigt]

George,

Thanks for posting those photos; I really enjoyed them. Lovely work as always. I'd just call them "handmade," rather than "hand-machined," but I understand where you're coming from.

[george wilson]

There aren't a lot of people who engage in many different trades. I had to,as the toolmaker. So,it's difficult to know what term to describe myself. I always thought that toolmaker was not an accurate term,since my work often covered making special gifts like the compass,for David Brinkley,or fully non tool items for heads of state and others. Or,for the museum.

I guarantee,the term "hand machined" is a real term.

[James Pallas]

There aren't a lot of people who engage in many different trades. I had to,as the toolmaker. So,it's difficult to know what term to describe myself. I always thought that toolmaker was not an accurate term,since my work often covered making special gifts like the compass,for David Brinkley,or fully non tool items for heads of state and others. Or,for the museum.

I guarantee,the term "hand machined" is a real term.
George, After seeing so many examples of your work and getting first hand descriptions from you. I will say that on any given day you can look on the shelf and pick any hat you like. You earned it.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Steve, your posts illuminate a number of the issues well. I agree with all of the points you made but one, and that relates to the use of a CNC. The point I will made links with George's term, "hand machined", which is applicable here.

In my mind, the central issue is that the piece being made is controlled by the hand, and there must be a direct link to the hand. One hand holds the work piece and pushes it through a tablesaw blade. The hand holds the saw/handplane/chisel that cuts/saws/carves the work piece. The hand holds a drill/router or the hand pushes the workpiece through a router table or against a spindle sander. In all these, the shaping of the work piece has a direct connection to the hand.

The issue I have with the CNC machine is not that it is a powered machine, but that it is a cognitive rather than a physical operation. It is no longer hands on. It is more clearly hands off.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Trevor Goodwin]

If you want to classify CNC as handmade, according to Steve's interpretation of Etsy's rules, objects made on a 3D printer or laser cutter would be also. They are all programmed into a computer and controlled by a computer. I'd be very surprised if Etsy allowed these types of methods to full into the "handmade" category.

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

This is the Ship of Theseus.

But more often than not, I find that people who are actually handmaking things rarely advertise them as handmade. Ergo, the more I see "handmade" stamped on something, the less I can assume it is.

[Brian Holcombe]

The trouble with wanting to do everything from start to finish is that you have to be exceptional at every one of those tasks or you risk causing yourself a great disservice and lowering the overall quality of your end product. I feel I have enough on my plate building furniture/cabinetry/shoji and frames without adding the efforts a sawyer takes to that.

I rely on expertise of another at that point, much the same as cabinet makers did in years past.

[Steve Voigt]

Steve, your posts illuminate a number of the issues well. I agree with all of the points you made but one, and that relates to the use of a CNC. The point I will made links with George's term, "hand machined", which is applicable here.


Derek,

Thanks for the comments. It is kind of funny to be getting so much pushback on this, to the point of obviously offending some people (not you, but others), considering that 95% of my own work is done with hand tools and I haven't touched a CNC machine in over 10 years.

Admittedly, my example of CNC machining is a bit extreme and I don't blame you for disagreeing. However, I don't agree with your reasoning. Let me work through a couple points.



In my mind, the central issue is that the piece being made is controlled by the hand, and there must be a direct link to the hand. The hand hold the work piece and pushes it through a tablesaw blade. The hand hold the saw/handplane/chisel that cuts/saws/carves the work piece. The hand hold a drill/router or the hand pushes the workpiece through a router table or against a spindle sander. In all these, the shaping of the work piece has a direct connection to the hand.


I don't know why there has to be a direct link to the hand; it seems an arbitrary requirement. But let's go with it for now. Every mill or metal lathe I've ever used has power feed. I'd guess it's been standard on machines since at least the 50s, if not before. To make a cut of more than a few inches on a lathe, one would nearly always use the power feed, since it produces a better finish. So, would you say that if I crank through the cut by turning the handle manually (an operation that takes less skill than feeding a piece of wood to a table saw), I'm working by hand, but if I throw the lever that activates the power feed, I'm not?

Or consider threading on the lathe. On a "manual" lathe, once I'm set up, I throw a lever and the machine feeds through the cut, automatically bottoming out and stopping when it hits a pre-set stop. On a snazzy toolroom lathe like the Hardinge, I pull another lever and the cutter retracts without me having to touch my depth of cut setting. I throw another lever to feed back to the starting point, advance the cutter a few thousandths, and repeat. At no point am I actually controlling the cut with my hands. And the only thing that's different on a CNC lathe is that the retracting/advancing steps are done automatically and much faster.

The point is that almost none of the skill in using a metal lathe (or mill) has to do with the cranking the handles through the cut, the "direct link" that you describe. A machinist needs to be able to sharpen a tool (that's half the ballgame, at least), know speeds and feeds, deal with deflection, vibration, heat, and a host of other issues, secure the part in the machine, indicate it in, etc. etc. Most of these things are done by hand and eye, regardless of whether it's a manual machine or CNC. And they take a great deal of training and skill. An unskilled person who couldn't make a threaded shaft on a manual lathe, couldn't make one on a CNC either.

So, if we're going to disqualify CNC work from the "hand made" category (which is fine with me), we need to disqualify manual machining as well, because as I hope I've demonstrated, they are not that different and there is an enormous amount of overlap between the two categories. I think a lot of people here think that "CNC" means you walk up to computer, type in a few instructions, and out comes a part without ever getting your hands dirty. And that is simply not the case.

Personally, I think the whole discussion of whether something is "hand made" is about as useful as debating where the "real America" is. I'd prefer "custom made" or "made in small batches." Currently, I make planes by using a few antiquated machines for only the roughest operations, and doing most of the work (and all finished surfaces) by hand. If I bought a mill, would my work be less hand made? Perhaps. Would it be less custom made? Definitely not.

[Derek Cohen]

Steve, I think we need to distinguish between two different lathe processes. The first is the metal lathe, which I have never used but understand requires a guide for the blade to create a precise cut. There is no direct contact here between hand and tool (other than the set up, which requires skill - which I do not dispute or take for granted), but I would not classify it as "hand made". I would call it "machined". I am not happy that one would call it "hand machined" when the blade is guided by a mechanism. By contrast, turning wooden items relies on the hand for its creation. The lathe simply turns the wood. The same identification for the metal lathe extends to a CNC machine and laser cutting and a 3-D printer ... all are programmed, which requires knowledge and a separate skill of its own, but none have direct contact between the hand and the machine or the hand and the work piece. None are, therefore, even "hand machined". They are simply machined.

I think the essence (for myself) is that there is actual hand skill, made up of eye-hand coordination and dexterity, and that this is the primary ingredient in calling something "hand made". And I think that this does have relevancy, such as in circumstances where "hand made" is considered a central factor in the value of an item. A painting, a statue, a wooden box, furniture ... whatever ... that is desired for its uniqueness, rather than considered off a production line where at any time the manufacturer could just push a switch and make more.

We are entering a new era where computer programming is entering woodworking. It is likely to evoke similar criticisms from traditionalists as the tablesaw or planer or any other machine must have when these were first introduced. What they have in common is the reduction in hands-on skills. The skills are different, and perhaps in the future they will be accepted into main stream woodworking, but not by myself at this time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Doug Hepler]

It is easy to get lost in semantic details. I feel sure that I know what hand made means. True, my dictionary does not support a claim that I can use power tools to make hand made furniture. It says that hand work is performed without the use of machines. (I’m sure it means machinery powered by steam or electricity because every tool is some kind of machine.) I tend to agree with the Etsy criteria quoted by Phil. They reflect David Pye's concept of "workmanship of risk." (See below)

When I was trying to decide this, I started with analogies. Hand-painted furniture or glassware, etc., seems self-evidently painted with a brush by a human. Hand made paper is actually made by hand, one sheet at a time. A handmade carpet is literally woven or knotted by hand. Although a machine, e.g., a loom, may have been used to produce a flatwoven carpet, the pedals and shuttlecock presumably were operated by feet and hands, and the artisan personally controlled the appearance of every inch. The yarn used to make a handmade carpet, however, may have been spun by an industrial machine or by hand, using a spinning wheel (a human-powered machine). A hand-thrown pot can be made on an electric potter’s wheel, and hand sewn clothes can be made on an electric sewing machine. Hand-blown glass is, of course, not touched by hand at all (ouch!) but is blown by human breath, one piece at a time.

Hand-made furniture shares the idea of individual character, craftsmanship, one-at-a-time production, and a connection between the craftsman and the user. In David Pye’s terminology, craftsmanship requires the workmanship of risk, where an operation is under the control of the workman and could go wrong if he or she were not sufficiently competent and attentive. This idea applies equally well to hand tools, hand-held power tools, and hand adjusted bench power tools. It seems to exclude automated substitutes for craftsmanship. Pye believed that workmanship of risk would produce small diversities in fit and appearance that would enhance the beauty of the piece, and which factory made furniture could never achieve. This is what many people mean when they say hand made. (Workmanship of risk is not a term that I intend to use very often in describing my work.)

People who value hand made furniture may have an additional criterion: uniqueness. When a client says, “hand made,” he usually means that the piece is not mass-produced. A piece designed to suit a client’s particular tastes and needs for color, style, dimensions, materials, and finish probably deserves to be called hand-made. It is technically custom made or (in the UK) bespoke furniture, but it would inevitably require a considerable amount of hand work, despite the fact that power tools were used in some operations. In my shop, it will certainly be fitted, assembled and finished by hand. Such a piece of custom furniture is assembled and finished part by part, regardless of whether the parts were made using power tools. Each step is visible to, and under the control of, the craftsman who is making it (me). The quality then depends on my competence and attentiveness at the moment (including my discipline to “do it right or do it over”).

I do see that my settled (personal) opinion about this will be challenged as CNC machines become more powerful and cheaper. I still do not think that I have to rip table legs and aprons from a rough cut board with a hand saw in order to call it hand made.

Doug

[Derek Cohen]

There is a fair chance some of the hand tools in your workshop have been manufactured using CNC technology.


Stewie

Thanks for the link to Lee Valley. I have visited there and walked through their machine shop and production lines. A number of the tools I reviewed privately for them began life as plastic printed models. And of course, their tools are not hand made ... but then are we expecting them to be? They are not advertised as such.

Veritas (and LN and Stanley and Clifton, probably include HNT Gordon as well ... ) are mass produced, and machines take up most of the donkey work. All are finished by hand, on machines. None of this surprises us. We do not expect more. We just expect is a good product.

Similarly, Carl Hanson & Son manufacture chairs designed by Hans Wegner, and have done so since 1950. The chairs are also mass produced. Most of the work was completed with copy lathes back then, and possibly today they use CNC machines. The chairs are finished by hand sanding the parts, and the company makes a big deal of that aspect. We admire the chairs for their design and solid construction, and the manufacturing process is irrelevant. The price of these chairs (several thousand dollars each for The Round Chair or "The Chair") makes them exclusive enough. The fact that they are beautiful makes them desirable. The construction is not advertised as hand made - but the fact they are referred to as hand finished indicates "hand made" is a desirable factor.

Incidentally, the choice of building The Chair by hand was a deliberate one by myself, and the challenge was to see how close I could replicate a machine made original using hand tools (after all, Wegner was a trained furniture maker as would have built the prototype by hand). The process was a huge learning exercise for me - not simply because I needed to find a way to replicate machine results with hand tools (ironic I know), but because along the way I was reminded that it might have been built differently if designed to be built with hand tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

I get annoyed at the millions of square feet of "hand scraped" flooring I see at HD, Menards, Lowes, etc. Even a 6 year old would recognize that as a lie or deception.

[Stewie Simpson]

By golly, the mods are fast at deleting posts.

[Prashun Patel]

When i wake up to three emails from different people complaining about the same, repeated feud, yes. You should know that most of the time when i delete it is because several others have complained. Goading is usually recognized as such and many members besides me find it distracting and annoying. So, please stop.

[Stewie Simpson]

Appreciate you stepping in Prashun.

Stewie;

[James Pallas]

I found myself lol about this subject. I was thinking about that song way back about the year 2525. Since once a CNC is programmed and set in motion it doesn't need any human action to keep going. It will cut whatever is in its space, wood, plastic, metal or dog poo. If left unattended it will just cut air. The air will however be cut to exact shape. Just some fun interjected here. No harm or criticism intended.
Jim

[Phil Mueller]

Steve, thanks for helping me think through that. Esty's guidelines do seem appropriate for the times for the most part. I struggle a bit with their acceptance of hand assembled within the handmade selling site. It would suggest that I could come up with a unique table design, purchase pre-milled legs, top, and aprons to my specs, assemble it with purchased hardware, and sell it as handmade.

In essence, that is not much different from purchasing beads and stringing them in a unique pattern on a piece of wire. For some reason through, the jewelry scenario feels more handmade, than the woodworking scenario. Perhaps the expectation for woodworking is a bit on a higher order.

[Brian Holcombe]

Stewie

Thanks for the link to Lee Valley. I have visited there and walked through their machine shop and production lines. A number of the tools I reviewed privately for them began life as plastic printed models. And of course, their tools are not hand made ... but then are we expecting them to be? They are not advertised as such.

Veritas (and LN and Stanley and Clifton, probably include HNT Gordon as well ... ) are mass produced, and machines take up most of the donkey work. All are finished by hand, on machines. None of this surprises us. We do not expect more. We just expect is a good product.

Similarly, Carl Hanson & Son manufacture chairs designed by Hans Wegner, and have done so since 1950. The chairs are also mass produced. Most of the work was completed with copy lathes back then, and possibly today they use CNC machines. The chairs are finished by hand sanding the parts, and the company makes a big deal of that aspect. We admire the chairs for their design and solid construction, and the manufacturing process is irrelevant. The price of these chairs (several thousand dollars each for The Round Chair or "The Chair") makes them exclusive enough. The fact that they are beautiful makes them desirable. The construction is not advertised as hand made - but the fact they are referred to as hand finished indicates "hand made" is a desirable factor.

Incidentally, the choice of building The Chair by hand was a deliberate one by myself, and the challenge was to see how close I could replicate a machine made original using hand tools (after all, Wegner was a trained furniture maker as would have built the prototype by hand). The process was a huge learning exercise for me - not simply because I needed to find a way to replicate machine results with hand tools (ironic I know), but because along the way I was reminded that it might have been built differently if designed to be built with hand tools. For those who did not see the recent Pop Wood announcement, this did receive some recognition:

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Congrats!! Nice to win editor's choice in Popular Woodworking, and The Chair is certainly deserving of it.

Danish furniture making has always seemed a nice balance in my mind between hand and machine, especially in shops like Rud Rasmussen which produce an incredible amount of hand cut miter corner dovetails that are so accurately done they do look machine made. The Danish manufacturers produce for a huge design industry and so it would be very impractical for them to make entirely by hand, but the parts which require the effort are given the effort.

FWIW it's actually PP Mobler which manufactures 'The Chair' or PP501. Prior to PP Mobler 'The Chair' was produced by cabinetmaker Johannes Hansen. Carl Hanson & Son produce many of Wegner's chairs, most notably the Wishbone chair, or CH24.

[george wilson]

The German made workbenches that Wood Craft sold in the 1960's boasted that a worker had to be working on their benches for 25 years before they were allowed to work in the SANDING and OILING department. What kind of VERY slow learners were they hiring!!:)

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

Congrats!!

Thanks Brian. It was a surprise, I assure you.

You are correct about PP Mobler - a senior moment on my part. Hansen manufactured The Chair in 1950. Mobler came later, and remain current.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

George, combine my surname and the speed at which I work and the numerous "learnings" I encounter with every build, I suspect they we're hiring my ancestors...must still be in my DNA:)

[Mike Holbrook]

The problem I see with this topic is "politics" gets drawn into it. Certainly most posters here have some background to base an opinion on regarding what makes something "hand made". Unfortunately Mr. John Q public may have to rely on labels and advertising claims with little real knowledge of the topic. Politics too often IMHO (in my humble opinion), involves compromise, however, compromising on labels and product construction "definitions" is often counter productive.

Often those companies making products end up compromising among themselves to make the rules about labeling/describing their products. For instance, IMHO, dog food labels are intentionally vague/confusing/even deceptive. The "rules" may be designed more to cloud than illuminate the facts. I find that much of advertising, particularly in the last couple decades, attempts to target a product/companies greatest weakness and make it seem like a great strength. The whole idea of truth in advertising has become a bad joke. Certainly this environment makes defining a term like "hand made" very difficult. Even if we were to come up with the perfect definition that at once illuminated the prerequisite requirements and advantages, chances are, competing "not hand made" products would immediately find ways to cloud the subject in the public view.

[Stewie Simpson]

When my father was completing his trade apprenticeship as a Carpenter & Joiner in Scotland during the 1950s, wood finishing was still classified as a separate trade. When he arrived in Australia, his 1st commission work was to build a traditional spiral staircase with 5 upper landings. All in timber. No tradesmen locally had the depth of knowledge to take on that type of work. I've had the opportunity to work with some extremely talented craftsmen in the woodworking trade, and he was in a league above them all. R.I.P. old man.

[george wilson]

In Germany,I can't recall when,they used to actually have a contest where several craftsmen would build stair cases in a large room to compete with each other!

[Chris Fournier]

I watched a video about Red Wing shoes being made in their factory. I would call them hand made. Hand made in America. Awesome.

[Derek Cohen]

This link directs to some WoodCentral advertising, not pop woodworking. Can you please supply a better link?

Pat, I am not sure whether one needs to be logged in or not. The link should take you to a list of Pop Wood award winners. Here is the link again ..

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/congratulations-2016-pwm-excellence-awards-winners

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

Pat, I am not sure whether one needs to be logged in or not. The link should take you to a list of Pop Wood award winners. Here is the link again ..

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/congratulations-2016-pwm-excellence-awards-winners

Regards from Perth

Derek
Regards from Perth

Derek

Congratulations Derek!

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Fred

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

Pat, I am not sure whether one needs to be logged in or not. The link should take you to a list of Pop Wood award winners. Here is the link again ..

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/congratulations-2016-pwm-excellence-awards-winners

Regards from Perth

Derek
Thanks Derek. The new link works. Your chair looks better than ever! Congratulations on the accomplishment and recognition.

[Derek Cohen]

Many thanks for the kind words Pat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ron Bontz]

{"I find that much of advertising, particularly in the last couple decades, attempts to target a product/companies greatest weakness and make it seem like a great strength. The whole idea of truth in advertising has become a bad joke."}
AAAmen. Deceptive propaganda has always been around and will no doubt remain. Too much biased, politics, and the all mighty dollar to ever rid ourselves of the disease which infects the consumers will to decide. " That's all I got to say about that" ( Forest Gump ) :)

[Jim Belair]

Hand-made furniture shares the idea of individual character, craftsmanship, one-at-a-time production, and a connection between the craftsman and the user. In David Pye’s terminology, craftsmanship requires the workmanship of risk, where an operation is under the control of the workman and could go wrong if he or she were not sufficiently competent and attentive. This idea applies equally well to hand tools, hand-held power tools, and hand adjusted bench power tools. It seems to exclude automated substitutes for craftsmanship. Pye believed that workmanship of risk would produce small diversities in fit and appearance that would enhance the beauty of the piece, and which factory made furniture could never achieve. This is what many people mean when they say hand made. (Workmanship of risk is not a term that I intend to use very often in describing my work.)



The Workmanship of Risk concept is what determines "hand made" for me also.

[Brian Holcombe]

Risky, like a shaper with spindle runout and a skipping feeder? :D

[paul cottingham]

Pat, I am not sure whether one needs to be logged in or not. The link should take you to a list of Pop Wood award winners. Here is the link again ..

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/congratulations-2016-pwm-excellence-awards-winners

Regards from Perth

Derek

thats terrific, Derek, and well deserved!

[Prashun Patel]

Congratulations Derek. Well deserved. The thread was informative and inspiring.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Paul and Prashun

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Kananis]

Beautiful chair, Derek - well-deserved and congrats.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks John

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Very nice Derek, I am wondering which hand tools you used to get those perfectly matched curves. It must have taken more patience than I am thinking I could muster.

Ron, good to hear someone else shares my disdain for how pervasive the influence of advertising/politics/spin has become. Some of us appreciate that there are still people who take the time to do it the way they believe it "should" be done.

[george wilson]

Chairs are SO much trouble to make!!!!! Congratulations,Derek!!

[Malcolm McLeod]

Congratulations, Derek! Something I'd be proud to own.

I attempted to make my kitchen cabinets by 'hand', but it seems my fingernails just don't grow fast enough to scratch them out of the tree. So, I resorted to 'tools' (saws and planes) and store bought lumber. But again, I was betrayed by the advance of time (my wife was impatiently waiting on HER house to be live-able). Fearing for my life, I resorted to machines (TS and router). I lived. (And tongue is firmly in cheek!)

This thread has numerous references to 'the right way', 'thesaurus', 'sematics', 'advertising' etc.. No one seems to agree on the line between 'hand-made' and 'not-hand-made'. It is a vague reference to begin with, and I doubt it will get any clearer. What does seem clear is that we ALL use tools (please correct me if I missed the finger-nail mfg'd thread:confused:) - - powered by a variety of systems, but still tools.

Wouldn't it be easier to say something was built by a craftsman? And maybe a craftsman is defined as someone who gets paid to care about their work product, rather than simply for the time they spend on it?

...or Craftswoman. (Sorry ladies.)

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Mike, George and Malcolm.


I am wondering which hand tools you used to get those perfectly matched curves.

The Fiddleback Jarrah was so hard that I struggled to shape the arms with spokeshaves. Even a sharp drawknife couldn't cut the wood ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart1_html_m73c39cdd.jpg

In the end I sawed kerfs and along the lower triangle, and used a chisel.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart1_html_m5ac4917f.jpg


Chopping out as much of the waste as possible. And then followed up with a Shinto rasp, and eventually more traditional Auriou rasps.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart1_html_m155cbb8c.jpg




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart2_html_4a270e0c.jpg


1http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart2_html_m3e457de9.jpg 2http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart2_html_4747edd2.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart2_html_c4c28e9.jpg http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart2_html_21241c9b.jpg

Only at the end was I able to use spokeshaves ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart2_html_m4e94e364.jpg

... and smooth with scrapers ...



http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart2_html_1ed1076e.jpg



Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Nice work!

Sooo, how do I make sure a box like this
344431
Would be sold as "Handmade"? Does the fact I used a bandsaw to resaw the Cherry, or the use of a sander, affect whether the box was handmade.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the pictures and information Derek. Great idea putting a handle on the far end of the Shinto. I may follow suit on that idea. Those saw blades do cut through very tough wood. Did you try Iwasaki rasps/floats? They were one of the few tools I found that would work purple heart and I use them on dried hard wood all the time. They leave a surface that is closer to hand planes, although not that close. I have a glued up similar chair back, mine is just oak. I can appreciate the challenge.

Nice leg vise, glad to see it is working out for you as I have plans to make something similar.

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek, is that Pexto drawknife a bevel down? I use my "bevel downs" both ways too. Galbert insists that the bevel down drawknife, which has the handles in line with the blade as opposed to angled away from it, works better with the bevel down. Maybe you have it sharpened more like I tend to do with dubbing on both faces which may make the tool more versatile? Dubbing on both sides or a knife-edge drawknife, equal bevels on both sides, should be easier to get into and out of cuts in hard wood.

[Mike Holbrook]

The shavings are from the LV skew rabbit not the drawknives. I had cleaned up the drawknife shavings. Maybe pictures will help.

This is a Bar Tools knife-edged drawknife


344454

This is an old Worth Bevel-down drawknife, which maybe the dubbing is visible on.

344455

This is the beveled side of the same Worth drawknife

344456

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, is that Pexto drawknife a bevel down? I use my "bevel downs" both ways too. Galbert insists that the bevel down drawknife, which has the handles in line with the blade as opposed to angled away from it, works better with the bevel down. Maybe you have it sharpened more like I tend to do with dubbing on both faces which may make the tool more versatile? Dubbing on both sides or a knife-edge drawknife, equal bevels on both sides, should be easier to get into and out of cuts in hard wood.

Mike, I used that very drawknife to demonstrate rehabbing and sharpening the blade of a drawknife. When done, it pared Radiata Pine endgrain with ease.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/SharpeningADrawknife.html

The Fiddleback Jarrah was simply harder than the drawknife, which needed to take thick shavings. I was not interested in fine shavings at this stage. It also resisted paring with chisels. The only way to take it down was to chop it away.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks for sharing Derek...beautiful chair and congrats! I am really starting to love curved work and the sort of freestyle shaving with files/rasps/spokeshaves. I've got a long way to go...just completed some slight curve table legs...but really enjoyed the process. Seeing your work is inspiring.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Phil. Post your progress here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Christopher Charles]

Congrats Derek! More than well-deserved!

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for your kind words Christopher.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Derek: You got those finger joints SO accurate!!

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks guys. While I am really chuffed with the recognition from Pop Wood, and even more so with the response of my friends here, the thought that was going through my mind when I posted (in response to Stewie) was "at what point do we refer to something as "hand made", and when is the relevant?".

Personally, I would not refer to the original The Chair as hand made as it was made with machines that were hands-off. I do not consider hand finishing to constitute hand made (the original was finished with spokeshaves and a sandpaper). Hand assembly does not count either.

Pop Wood recognised that the handwork I put in added value. Megan's kind words made that evident. Does this mean that is is not enough to look at a piece of furniture alone for its looks, but also to consider the skills that created it? Would you value furniture more if it is built with handtools and hands-on machines, or with computers?

I could ask the same about handplanes: do we value the custom infill because it is handmade? Do we devalue a cast plane because it is not dovetailed although it performs better?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Derek: You got those finger joints SO accurate!!

Thanks George. That was one situation where the inside of the joint was more important than the outside of the joint ... because the outside was cut away.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

Does this mean that is is not enough to look at a piece of furniture alone for its looks, but also to consider the skills that created it? Would you value furniture more if it is built with handtools and hands-on machines, or with computers?

I could ask the same about handplanes: do we value the custom infill because it is handmade? Do we devalue a cast plane because it is not dovetailed although it performs better?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I've found that, all things being equal, the knowing that a piece was crafted arduously and with uncommon skill has a profound effect on the person to whom the object goes, provided they've acquired the object for want, and not merely happened across it. This is often and easily attributed to ignorance or superstition, but--among many other things--it has reinforced in me a belief that the ease at which one *feels* a thing is different for being "hand-crafted" is evidence that a certain something is left or imbued in the objects one hand-crafts.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks Brian. It was a surprise, I assure you.

You are correct about PP Mobler - a senior moment on my part. Hansen manufactured The Chair in 1950. Mobler came later, and remain current.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Finally catching up on this thread, and....Wow! Very nicely done Derek.

Chalk me up as another for the "workmanship of risk" concept. IMO "handmade" is yet one more example of a term to which people impute deep meaning, but which is nearly meaningless as a practical matter.

In that sense "handmade" a lot like "GMO". As Neil deGrasse Tyson famously pointed out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ecT2CaL7NA), just about everything that humans grow or breed is genetically modified. Our very existence genetically modifies the environment around us by modifying evolutionary pressures. One can only make meaningful arguments by drilling down a level or three and addressing specific techniques/practices.

IMO Pye's notion of "workmanship of risk" provides a framework with which one can meaningfully discuss and classify specific crafting practices.

[Kees Heiden]

Congratulations from me too Derek! When you made the chair I was allready in total awe. Nice to see this recognition from outside the forums too.

[Derek Cohen]

Many thanks Patrick and Kees!

Patrick, as I understand, "workmanship of risk" is about the use of hands alone. No guides or jigs or hands-off machinery. Dovetail jigs are out. Tablesaws are out. Bandsaws are in, as would be a handheld powered router as long as it is not guided in any way.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

I am having a problem with comparing "workmanship of risk" to the term GMO.

"In that sense "handmade" a lot like "GMO". As Neil deGrasse Tyson famously pointed out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ecT2CaL7NA), just about everything that humans grow or breed is genetically modified. Our very existence genetically modifies the environment around us by modifying evolutionary pressures. One can only make meaningful arguments by drilling down a level or three and addressing specific techniques/practices." None of which is relevant to the reasons for GMO labeling or restrictions.

GMO is a very important factor in the making of food products. As it turns out an increasing number of people, such as myself, have increasing degrees of sensitivity and allergic response to whether some very small amount of chemicals and or very large quantities of certain common food elements occur in our diets.

There are the Paleo people who point out that the human body does not handle concentrations of many elements well unless it is given very long times to adapt to them. The German Shepherd dogs I raise do not tolerate a change in the major protein source in their diet. If you feed these dogs, and many other breeds; lamb, beef....when they have been eating a chicken based diet they instantly have major digestive issues that can actually kill them. Most of the better dog foods used today contain no grain as research has proven it can cause havoc in the canine digestive tract. Humans are proving to be a little less sensitive, probably due to our more omnivorous diet, but are increasingly having issues adapting to major changes in substances in our food.

All wheat today is genetically modified to contain 3-4 times the amount of gluten as the original plant contained a few decades ago. Wheat/gluten is cheap and often added to an amazing number of our food products, simply because it is cheap. There is an increasingly large percent of the human population that has a large range of negative reactions to having those large quantities of this grain added to their diet. This grain has a relatively short and minor part in the human diet historically and it is becoming evident that GMO labeling and restrictions may be the only way to protect large numbers of the human population from these very rapid changes in our diets.

I do not see how protecting large segments of the human population from major health risks relates to how much "hand work" is involved in the construction of a wood object. If I understand where Derek and others are going with the "hand made" idea, they are relating "hand made" more to a state of mind and attention to detail, specifically by using ones hands.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think there is a certain ideal quality to strive for, regardless of how you are getting there. I've done some contemplating on this and my hangup with manufactured furniture is usually where they start to cover quality with brand allure. You see brands like the aforementioned PP Mobler and Carl Hansen and they turn out a beautiful product, handmade, machine made (really both) or otherwise their product does not lack in design or execution. You can see they have a sense of quality in every aspect of their product from material sourcing on through to the finished product.
You also see studio makers following that mantra to the extreme, starting with design and following through with wonderful choice of material and consideration of joinery all the way on through to the finished result.
In both cases these guys are using many hand tools since they're the most effective device for achieving the best result in many situations.

[Patrick Chase]

Many thanks Patrick and Kees!

Patrick, as I understand, "workmanship of risk" is about the use of hands alone. No guides or jigs or hands-off machinery. Dovetail jigs are out. Tablesaws are out. Bandsaws are in, as would be a handheld powered router as long as it is not guided in any way.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I should clarify: I think that "workmanship of risk" is valuable as a framework for analyzing the degree of human involvement in various techniques, so that we can have a meaningful discussion of the balance between man and machine contributions to a piece of work. The value or importance that one attaches to those classifications is a separate question. In that regard I'm far from being a purist, as I regularly use tools and techniques that fail the test.

Here's one example of why I like "workmanship at risk": Bridge City makes this nifty jig (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/jmpv2-jointmaker-pro.html) that basically takes all of the risk out of certain joinery cuts. By Pye's test using a JMP would be further out toward the "automation" end of the scale than a tablesaw with a simple fence, and I think that's about right. The JMP is a "hand" tool, but there's zero craftsmanship in its use, and that illustrates the problem with "hand made" as a framework for discussion.

[Patrick Chase]

I am having a problem with comparing "workmanship of risk" to the term GMO.


You just made my point Mike.

Even accepting absolutely everything you say as true, "GMO" isn't what causes the problem. It's specific practices (increasing gluten in wheat as you describe, for example) that are the problem. Example: If you like to play with dogs or cats, then you're "pro GMO" in some sense, because both species wouldn't exist without genetic modification by humans. Wolves and bobcats don't play so much. "GMO" is something that happens whenever humans interact with their environment. It can be good (dogs) or bad (glutinous wheat), but the fact is that it's pervasive and unavoidable.

We are far more credible if we address specifics (as you actually did in your post) than if we argue about the goodness of something as diffuse and practically meaningless as "GMO". Same for "handmade" - that's the parallel I was drawing.

[Warren Mickley]

A few days ago I was at a store when a van pulled up. Hand Made Brooms was written on the side. So I asked the guy if he used machines to make his brooms. He looked at me as if to say "What part of hand made do you not understand?" Then he said "no machines, they're handmade". He asked me if I knew what a schnitzelbank was.

Years ago I had a girlfriend who planted flax seeds and harvested the flax. Then followed retting, scutching, heckling, spinning, dying, warping and weaving to produce a linen shawl. I don't think one need do all that to call oneself a hand weaver. I also know a blacksmith who has dug and smelted ore, but it is his work at the anvil that would cause me to say made by hand.

There is a guy who has 70 people working in his furniture factory. His logo says Handmade, but his employees are probably more proficient with belt sanders and router jigs than with planes and chisels. I think there is some delusion or deception involved here.

There is no shame in using machines. There is a lot of skill in using machines. Well made machine furniture is better than hand made that is done poorly. But if a guy is pushing stuff through a machine, that is not hand made.

[Alan Schwabacher]

There is no shame in using machines. There is a lot of skill in using machines. Well made machine furniture is better than hand made that is done poorly. But if a guy is pushing stuff through a machine, that is not hand made.

I agree entirely. "Handmade" may not mean better, but it means made by hand.

But just because I interpret it this way does not mean everyone does. Hands almost always use tools, and few would argue that using a flint flake or a pocketknife would invalidate the claim to handmade status. Highly skilled hands type the code needed to run CNC mills and operate robots that assemble cars, but if those are allowed in the category of handmade, the term loses any meaning at all. Somewhere in between we need to draw a line, and to me it means that both the power and the guidance of the tool is by hand.

The fuzzy part to me is something like a powered wood lathe, where the guidance and power for the tool is by hand, but the work spins with another power source. I would call that handmade, but it's close. I suppose even with a pole lathe the power is not by hand but by foot.

[Mike Holbrook]

"You just made my point Mike."
Patrick I think you have a good deal to offer this forum technically and I respect your points. It just seems to me that tossing science/math/engineering principals up against a proverbial wall to see if any of it sticks tends to obfuscate instead of illuminate.

It seems to me that there are two ways to go in these discussions. One way attempts to simplify, clarify and relate personal experiences to our specific areas of interest. The other tends more to obscure actual meaning in a sea of technically inconsequential, non related subject matter.

My admittedly off topic comments above were solely made to accentuate the fact that IMHO off-topic, unrelated technical information, which does not stand up to scrutiny as relevant in this context, was tossed at the subject.

Trying to relate the YouTube comments of an Astrophysicist, talking about a completely unrelated topic, tying that to some obscure reference to GMO IMHO has very little chance of illuminating the discussion. IMHO it would take volumes of written material to draw any meaningful comparisons on topics that diverse.

Patrick, it is interesting that you chose a Neil deGasse YouTube video to illustrate your point. In an article in Wired entitled "Neil deGrasse Tyson Is a Black Hole, Sucking the Fun Out of the Universe" Wired said:

"Neil deGrasse Tyson is, supposedly, an educator and a populariser of science; it’s his job to excite people about the mysteries of the universe, communicate information, and correct popular misconceptions. This is a noble, arduous, and thankless job, which might be why he doesn’t do it. What he actually does is make the universe boring, tell people things that they already know, and dispel misconceptions that nobody actually holds. In his TV appearances, puppeted by an invisible army of scriptwriters, this tendency is barely held in check, but in his lectures or on the internet it’s torrential; a seeping flood of grey goo, paring down the world to its driest, dullest, most colourless essentials. He likes to watch scifi films, and point out all the inaccuracies."

[Van Huskey]

The Fiddleback Jarrah was so hard that I struggled to shape the arms with spokeshaves.



http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart1_html_m5ac4917f.jpg



Regards from Perth

Derek

First, gorgeous chair and kudos for doing it the hard way... Speaking of hard things is your Sinn U1 the tegimented version?



Whenever their is not a universally applicable and precise definition of a term of art that can be used to increase the monetary value of an item you can bet there will be controversy and long discussion about it. Etsy is in the unenviable position of having a market place to protect and needing to come up with a definition of handmade that can be applied objectvely to a broad spectrum of products. Handmade is one of those things I see like Justice Potter Stewart used to craft his threshold test for obscenity "I know it when I see it". The only problem with that and this is everyone sees through a different set of eyes. I think the closer one is to a hand tool only user the more strict their personal definition of handmade might be. This got me thinking about a couple of pieces I have built over the years, I made a pattern, roughed out the part on the bandsaw, slapped the pattern on the wood and put it on the shaper with a pattern power feeder and viola a near finish ready part. Were they handmade? I dunno, I never really thought about it but if someone had ask me "did you hand make that?" I would have reflexively said "yes".

[Mike Holbrook]

This discussion is near and dear to me. This is a point having to do with why we as Neanders choose to work as we do. There is a point between the juncture of woodworking and art where many "woodworkers" here straddle the line between art and simple construction of physical objects for use in the home. Certainly guys like George, Warren, Brian, Derek and others seem to me to hoover over this line. This is a place I would like to spend more time in as well.

For me "art" is created "by hand". Certainly there is computer generated art but someone still has to do work with their hands to "create" the physical art, even if morphing software....is used. For me, it is precisely these junctures between different: disciplines, hobbies, art, science, philosophy, work & even religion that offer us the best learning opportunities.

My objective in this conversation does not relate to any individuals but to styles of posting and discussion which may or may not be conducive to pursuing the topics. It seems to me that pursuing the styles we use posting on topics has the potential for reducing or eliminating issues. I do not claim to own any space on the "righteous" side of any of this discussion. I have seen many posts get blocked. I only hope these can be reduced and have often thought that pursuing posting styles might help.

Abe Lincoln was noted as apologizing before one of his longer speeches. He commented that he just did not have the time to write a shorter one. I will admit to frequently failing at this task as well and would like to apologize for not always taking the time to edit.

[lowell holmes]

Derek,

I realize you are at least 15 hours later than we are in the Central Time Zone in the U.S.

You and Stewie must spend a lot of time on line in the wee hours of the morning? When do Aussies sleep? :)