Engraver for a School Program

[Matthew McGuire]

Hello all, I have been reading through many threads for awhile now and contacted many different laser companies for quotes and prices.

I am looking to add a laser to my Technology Education Program. I already have Lulzbot 3d Printers, a Shopbot CNC router, and Roland Vinyl cutter, so am quite familiar with cnc/cad equipment.

I had set my mind to rabbit laser QX-9060 which I applied for a grant to get funding for and was unfortunately turned down this time, got funding from the same source for the CNC several years ago. So I am now hunting around for any other potential funding sources without much luck. I have about $4000 from a school budget I can put to a laser but that will not cover the cost of the rabbit so now I am looking at other options at this lower budget and looking for some input/suggestions/comments. What I have narrowed it down to at the budget is..

Boss LS-1416 Gen V 50w 14x16 https://www.bosslaser.com/boss-ls-1416.html#.V9QqdpMrJn4
Automation Technology 60W CO2 Laser Engraving Machine, auto focus 24 X 16 http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/laser-engraving/60w-co2-laser-machine
rabbit QX-30-5030 30w 20x12 http://www.rabbitlaserusa.com/laser_QX5030.html

The rabbit is really less powerful and priced higher than I would prefer, but do seem to be the best reviewed company around here. Automation Technology seems to be the best for the money, but not always consistent positive about them, and some say they are basically priced up direct imports and not really gone through in the US like rabbit and Boss.


Any sort of suggestions or recommendations are welcomed. Yes, I do know IDEALLY I should go with one of the Big 4 (Universal I think would be my pick) but cannot afford that with the funding I have available. I do know several companies give educational discounts, and tax except and have already had machines quoted at these prices.

Thanks for any thoughts

-Matt

[Keith Downing]

Couple thoughts:

What type of program is this? Continuing Education with all adults? Or a high school or community college program? Do you charge for the class or is publicly funded? Based on those answers, you might be able to work out a per cost use for the laser equipment which might help with the funding issues.

Also, have you considered reaching out to one of the laser companies regarding a non-profit discount or price break? I know Boss has worked with military and student orgs in the past to some extent. They might be willing to drop off 10-20% if you're a non-profit, and presumably a lot of people would be introduced to their brand using it in your class. That's the pitch I would very politely give them anyways.

[John Lifer]

If it were me, then I'd be hitting up Boss for a discount to get a machine in your school for the $4k you have. And I'd be looking at all the other US companies to try and get some sort of a machine in your school. Might not be biggest, greatest, but at least a laser. Then work on upgrading depending on what you use it for.

[Bert Kemp]

I know Ray at Rabbit offers discounts for schools have you talked directly with him or Carol?

[Matthew McGuire]

Thanks for the responses, I am actually mainly in a middle school program, also one HS course. I will be the one mainly running the machine, students creating the files, as I do with the other CNC equipment we have. As mentioned earlier, I have received quoted prices with discounts for education already. I received several PMs with other company suggestions as well that I will look into.

Is automation technology lasers just direct from china laser sold through a middle man? or do they actually go through and upgrade lasers like Rabbit or Boss do? I feel they probably do not as their prices are so much cheaper than Rabbit or Boss.

Thanks again for the help.

[Jerome Stanek]

Automation just reships from their warehouse but it still is a good deal. One thing to remember is that when you set one up you are learning a lot and don't have to rely on a third party. Being a teacher you should know how valuable knowledge is.

[Wilbur Harris]

You're buying a laser that just about has to work from day to day. All I need for my hobby is a Chinese laser but you need one that will run day in and day out. Get your hands on a used, somewhat cheaper, Trotec machine and if the tube is poor get it re-charged. I understand completely about the money but I think you're going to be in trouble sooner or later with a Chinese laser. If you do buy a Chinese laser, get an extra tube and power supply for starters....and make sure you know how to replace them.

[Bert Kemp]

Why does everybody knock Chinese machines and tell people to get an extra tube Both are wrong! Theres perfectly good Chinese machines out there , ones that will preform well, and telling people to buy an extra tube is also wrong, tubes have a shelve life and will go bad sitting on a shelve also they are warrantied from the date of MFG not the date you start using them.
and as a side note Chinese machines are cheap to fix when they break down if they break down, check out the cost to fix a trotec or epilog when they have problems and they do.

[Glen Monaghan]

Why does everybody knock Chinese machines and tell people to get an extra tube Both are wrong! Theres perfectly good Chinese machines out there , ones that will preform well, and telling people to buy an extra tube is also wrong, tubes have a shelve life and will go bad sitting on a shelve also they are warrantied from the date of MFG not the date you start using them.
and as a side note Chinese machines are cheap to fix when they break down if they break down, check out the cost to fix a trotec or epilog when they have problems and they do.

There is a strong historical reason for that cliche... While there may be "perfectly good Chinese machines out there", there have long been a lot more (and, generally, a lot more readily available) perfectly crappy Chinese machines out there. There is little hard documentation readily available to the typical buyer to differentiate the allegedly good machines from the morass of mediocre-to-bad ones and, so, you get a lot of people knocking them after being disappointed with their purchase. Also, people are more inclined to sound off about their problems and complaints than about their successes and kudos. As for buying an extra tube, a large percentage of people buying Chinese laser machines quickly destroyed their tubes by overdriving them (pretty sure you know that story), and rants about the shipping costs, long shipping times, and high breakage rates for replacement tubes are legion. Heard a lot of reports about the value of those warranties, rather, lack of value. So, if you don't want to wait inordinate amounts of time for imported parts to fix your imported machine, you buy spares when you buy the machine.

[Bert Kemp]

I'm at a loss as to why any one would wait all that time to get a tube shipped in from China. There's 5 or 6 places right here in the US that sell decent tubes at a fair price. By time you pay shipping for a tube from China is almost the same cost as buying it here and half the time they arrive broke and you have to wait for a replacement to ship.:D Also 90% of the people that come here asking for advice about which machine to buy complain about the price then go buy a cheap ebay laser then come back and grip about the Cheap Chinese laser.







There is a strong historical reason for that cliche... While there may be "perfectly good Chinese machines out there", there have long been a lot more (and, generally, a lot more readily available) perfectly crappy Chinese machines out there. There is little hard documentation readily available to the typical buyer to differentiate the allegedly good machines from the morass of mediocre-to-bad ones and, so, you get a lot of people knocking them after being disappointed with their purchase. Also, people are more inclined to sound off about their problems and complaints than about their successes and kudos. As for buying an extra tube, a large percentage of people buying Chinese laser machines quickly destroyed their tubes by overdriving them (pretty sure you know that story), and rants about the shipping costs, long shipping times, and high breakage rates for replacement tubes are legion. Heard a lot of reports about the value of those warranties, rather, lack of value. So, if you don't want to wait inordinate amounts of time for imported parts to fix your imported machine, you buy spares when you buy the machine.

[Matthew McGuire]

I do understand that the quality of a Chinese machine may not be the same as one of the big 4 lasers, I also know that I will not have a budget for a US machine and am not allowed to buy used equipment, nor would I want to. The argument as to whether Chinese machines should be purchased over US machines is not one that needs to happen here, as it has many times over already, as is not an option for me either way.

I do not need a machine that is going to be running everyday, the laser is not the only equipment that will be used in the class. It will probably be used for one main project that will be run twice a year, then whatever other random projects or fundraisers that come up through out the year. I try to expose my students to as many different aspects of technology as possible as laser engraving is one that I would like to add to that. I am fairly well capable of learning/ problem solving/ fixing equipment myself with occasional assistance from great resources like these forums.

With that said... Would I be okay going with an automation technologies machine for about $2800 or should I go about $4100 to go with a boss machine to get possible better service and some upgraded components (how much of a difference do they make?). Again a rabbit machine even the lower model seem to be out of my current budget.

I know no one can tell me exactly what to do, I am just asking for opinions to guide my decision off of. Again I have read through many many threads on this and other forums for several weeks now which is why my options are so narrowed down.

Thanks again
-Matt

[Bert Kemp]

well if Rabbit is not an option if it was me I'd go with Boss just for the better support as I've heard Auto Techs support has gone down hill lately. If you could do a direct import maybe Thunderlaser.

[Mark Sipes]

Have you made any attempts to link up with a community partner "Captain's of Industry" and see if a donation (machine) is available.


.

[Matthew McGuire]

I tried looking up "Captain's of Industry" from what I can tell they are a marketing company? I am in Long Island, NY and they are in Massachusetts, so not exactly in my community either. I may be missing something, I am not sure how they can help?

[Mark Sipes]

Captain's of Industry is a term for the movers and shakers in your community....... maybe a company that uses lasers and is currently upgrading their manufacturing equipment.

[Wilbur Harris]

It's not that difficult to order and ship a machine from China. Just buy a good one rather than one of those cheapo things on ebay. I say that not knowing what I'm talking about but I do have a pretty good laser I bought on the cheap from Shenhui. It's way too big but is a pretty good laser machine. This ain't as difficult a choice as you might think given that you know your gonna buy a Chinese laser and use it very little.

I will say that if you are not going to use it very often then don't buy anything extra. I didn't....but I'm having to buy a tube right now and don't have a lot of money to throw around....like I thought I would when I bought the darn thing. :)

[Bill George]

I taught for 12 years before retirement. Schools pay via PO and terms, hard to get them to part with money upfront. He also needs someone that when he picks up the phone someone on the other end can give him answers. A USA Chinese machine vender like Rabbit or USA made machine with support. Been there, done that.

Issue is money, a Rabbit USA will run him perhaps $7000 new, a new USA made machine or Trotec will be $15-20,000. Used machines are available but still over his price range.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Be aware few Chinese direct imports will meet school safety requirements

[Ross Moshinsky]

Be aware few Chinese direct imports will meet school safety requirements

We're a funny bunch over here. Sometimes we go crazy with safety concerns and then other times we're blissfully ignorant. I expect as long as it "looks safe" the school wouldn't have an issue. Obviously that's until some kid complains of their eyes bothering them or something like that.

As someone that deals with a lot of government agencies including schools. You need to talk to your boss or potentially direct with the BOE. They'll tell you your purchasing parameters. I doubt you'd be able to buy a machine directly from China. I'm also fairly confident that you'll have to go through PO in order to purchase so you'll have to find someone willing to deal with the PO process. If everyone isn't on their game, it can take 120 days to get paid via PO. If everyone is on their game, you can get paid under 30 days.

[Matthew McGuire]

I have been reaching out to find funding for several reasons, also run a robotics and technology club, both unfunded by the school. Have had some help but not nearly enough to get my dream machine for the program of course.

[Matthew McGuire]

Through the school ordering directly from china would not work unfortunately.

[Mark Sipes]

Set your standards high and go with a fund raiser...... not in the education arena but I have been in many a car wash, bake sale and gift wrap events to know they work.... Technology is a "Button Pusher" so go push some buttons and quite waiting for the perfect solution............. venting again!




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[Matthew McGuire]

I do my fair share of fundraisers and grants, and hope when I get a laser it will be another source of future funding. In the past 4 years I have brought in about $35,000 from outside sources to my program for new equipment and projects. This year I need to raise around 4,000 for robotics competitions for the year and about another 1,000 for tech club projects and competitions. So all of my fundraising is going to that and have not found a grant that will work to fund the laser at this time and have been trying to work that route for over a year.

Anyway... with the money I do have available for the laser, I believe I have decided on the Boss ls14-16 based on feedback and help from several people here and speaking with them. I think I can squeeze in the 60w compared to the 50w for another $250.. is that worth the extra?

[Mark Sipes]

Just depends on what your mission is... Instruction, education or actual production ????