Question about Moxon vise

[Mark R Webster]

Hi Guys, I have a classic European bench I made many years ago based on the one Frank Klaus uses. I don't really like cutting dovetails in the shoulder vise or the tail vise. I was considering the Moxon... thinking I could be closer to the work. It seems though, having it sit on top of the workbench (currently) 34" tall, the ergonomics of sawing would become a problem when a piece is higher. I am about 5' 6" so I would have to sand on a stool to keep my forearm horizontal. Is this a realistic concern? Should I consider remodeling my bench to incorporate a twin screw (replacing the shoulder vise), keeping things at the normal height? Thoughts?

[Derek Cohen]

If a Moxon vise would raise the work too high, a twin screw vice let into the side face of the bench top would likely be the preferred option.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Bussey]

You could drill and put in a couple of threaded inserts into the side of you top and then you could fasten the vise right to the bench top and make the top of the moxon any height you want. Moxon vises are usually a little on the thick side so the not would need to be counter bored in with enough room so that the nut at the back can be tightened.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks for the idea Tom.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I LOVE my Moxon vice..... It is what I use for hand-cut dovetails.

http://benchcrafted.com/MoxonVise.html

I have also seen plans in various wood working magazines, I don't remember which one(s), with say a "small" bench that can simply sit on top of your existing bench and it has a large end vice similar to a Moxon vise. The primary advantage is that you have a larger surface on the back side of the vise in case you want to lay a board flat (while say marking where to cut pins). I am sure that there are disadvantages to it, however; for example, then I would end up marking the top of the vice face if I did not still life it up a bit, but at least it could be only a slight rise.

Google Benchtop Bench.

[Jim Koepke]

To join in with Derek and Tom the front edge of the bench, or even the back for that matter if accessible, can be used as the back chop of a moxon (twin screw) arrangement.

If you want to give this a noncommital trial, you could try a board across the front held on by a couple of pipe clamps to see if it fits you need.

jtk

[Mark R Webster]

Great info thanks!

[Blake M Williams]

I did something similar to Jim's idea at first. I was trying to figure out a rough size that worked best. I used this for a little while until I got more comfortable with dovetails, I now cut them fairly regularly and I decided on a twin screw set up on the side of the bench. I do have to bend over a tad, if piece is to high in vice I get some vibration. Its not to uncomfortable, but when I make a larger bench and also have more room I wouldn't mind having a top mounted moxon.

[Derek Cohen]

I've dug out a picture from about 15 years ago. This was before the Moxon became an Internet fashion.

This is a "twin screw" vise used for dovetailing. It is made with metal thread inserts into the side of the bench top ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/image010.jpg

And, yes, the bench had two face vises!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

My experience has been since I built the Scandinavian/Klausz bench you talk about,

344217 I use the shoulder vise to cut dt's rather than the moxon.

This is because the moxon mine has a base that elevates about 6" above bench.

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Without the base, it will add about 4" to bench height (which I plan to do).

Also, if I had to do over, I would make it 24" between screws rather than 16.
This would be very handy right now for the dresser project I am working on when cutting the tails.

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[Mark R Webster]

Very nice Derek, thanks for the idea!

[Mark R Webster]

Hi Robert, The shoulder vise puts me a lot further from the work piece than I like. It just feels uncomfortable (​to me). I probably don't get the most out of the vise since I mainly just use it for edge treatment on wide boards. Thanks for the tip on the width. If you drop the moxon are you going to use it for dovetailing?

[Prashun Patel]

Or you can use a Dozuki for sawing and not even use a vise.

[steven c newman]

The way I have been working..
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I seem to do a lot of work right out on the end of the bench, whether sawing for hand-cut finger joints..
344220
Or, cutting dovetails, for angled work
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Most of what I do revolves around this corner of the bench..
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Because this is usually all the space I have to work in....

[Mark R Webster]

I am sure one could do it without a vise, but I seem to need one even with a Dozuki :)

[Mark R Webster]

Having an end vise like yours would be nice for dovetails, but mine is an L vise, which will work but.... Thanks for the pics and the insight!!

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Robert, The shoulder vise puts me a lot further from the work piece than I like. It just feels uncomfortable (​to me). I probably don't get the most out of the vise since I mainly just use it for edge treatment on wide boards. Thanks for the tip on the width. If you drop the moxon are you going to use it for dovetailing?

I have a moxon-type vise (the one TFWW sells), but only use it for very small/detailed dovetailing.

IMO dovetailing vise height is a tradeoff between visibility and cutting mechanics. It's easier to see what you're doing with a high vise, but it's harder to cut with a relaxed, straight stroke. As I've gotten (a little) better at dovetailing I've come to prioritize mechanics over visibility. I've cut enough at this point that I find that I can follow my layout even with limited visibility, but there's no substitute for clean mechanics.

I think that a twin-screw face vise like Derek's is a good choice, perhaps with a low-power magnifier as those can deliver a clear view at a decent working distance.

Just my $0.02...

[Mark R Webster]

Sounds logical to me thanks Patrick!!

[Robert Engel]

Hi Robert, The shoulder vise puts me a lot further from the work piece than I like. It just feels uncomfortable (​to me). I probably don't get the most out of the vise since I mainly just use it for edge treatment on wide boards. Thanks for the tip on the width. If you drop the moxon are you going to use it for dovetailing?Probably just for wide boards. I've found the SV is not uncomfortable you just have to adjust the wrist angle a bit when sawing.

[Mark R Webster]

Hi Robert, I am giving the SV another try as we "speak". Thanks for the input.

[Glenn de Souza]

This is a coincidence. I have been thinking about Moxon vises lately and spent yesterday afternoon making one. It may not win any beauty contests, and it's not nearly as spiffy as one of those benchcrafted models, but then again it was not even $15 in hardware store parts plus some soft maple I had laying around. The worktable you see it on is about 34" and the jaws are about 4 1/2" high. The work is at the right height for me when standing and sawing, but then I'm 6'. The beauty of a Moxon vise is that it can be set it up anywhere, so maybe a dedicated table that puts it at the right height for you? You'll see holes in the end of the back cleat on mine because I plan to hang it on the wall when not in use.

Also, like others have mentioned, you could build it right into your bench. David Barron, the James Bond of dovetailing has a video that talks about his Moxon vise and why he chose to install it permanently in his bench. You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ZNU7atoxc . I think he has a follow up video on some refinements he made to his vise like adding springs (which I did also). Obviously his objective is to have the work at the right height for sawing in a seated position.

If you're of a mind to make your own Moxon vise and you've made a European cabinetmaker's bench before, a project like this will be a walk in the park for you. You can make a poor man's version like I did, or get acme thread screws, wood screws, the benchcrafted kit, or whatever. There's lots of info on the web about Moxon vises. If function is your main priority, I will tell you my humble vise has an incredibly strong grip and will hold a sheet of paper so tightly, you can lift the unclamped vise with it.

You're smart to be thinking about ergonomics. I should have done the same when I was setting up my shop. It's all a work in progress.

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[Mark R Webster]

Nicely done Glenn! And thanks for the link.

[Mark R Webster]

Hi again Glenn, I really like David Barron's Moxon version from your link. That would really take care of my wants. I guess at this point I just need to decide if I want to modify my current bench or try to find another spot to have a separate bench similar to Barron's. I spent some time dovetailing on my shoulder vice yesterday and it wasn't as much of a problem as had remembered from past use for dovetailing. Anyway lots to think about. Thanks again