Woodsmith shop

[Brent Cutshall]

Ok, I just watched my first episode of Woodsmith shop, and good grief. Them people have power tools for everything, and what's bad about it is that they have a whole heap of hand tools hanging on the wall behind them. They're doing dados and rabbets with a table saw and behind them sits a set of shoulder planes. I wish I had some of those planes. It's a nice show for power workers, and I liked it(little brother was bored) but come on, they cut tenons with a table saw and they had a TENON saw behind them. I guess I've been to long in a shop that I built with hand tools, working with hand tools, and not using power tools. They had me scratching my head. I wish they showed The Woodwrights Shop on dish.

[steven c newman]

pbs.org......full episodes of The Woodwright's Shop. Usually have at least three years worth of episodes on the sight to watch..

Never could get into the woodsmith bunch......most of their stuff I could do faster with the handtooling I have....almost like watching the Router Workshop.....

[lowell holmes]

They do use hand tools occasionally, but they are power tool guys. I still like to watch them. They organize their projects well.

Of course, full disclosure requires that I have a nice power tool shop as well as an extensive collection of hand tools. I'm making a handle for my D12 Disston and I have no interest in cutting the shape with my coping saw. I will use brace and bit and hand crank drill though.

[Stewie Simpson]

Brent; its quite likely the episodes of the Woodsmith Shop are designed to cater for the vast majority of we woodworkers who do rely on a combination of hand and power tools to complete their work. A far cry from what's being offered by Roy within his series of the Woodright Shop. I have heard many comments on this forum praising the work of Chris Schwarz in promoting the use of hand tools. But. You're rarely offered the opportunity to view what Chris chooses to use when the camera is turned OFF. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3LkC8JpO1g

Stewie;

[glenn bradley]

The Woodsmith folks are power-tool-centric. Expecting their show to be different is a bit off target, no? Although the mag and website give some attention to hand tools that is not their focus. For an alternate view I often watch Roy (who I really enjoy) tackle things better done with a bit of powered assistance IMHO but, that's part of the joy of the craft. We all do this for different reasons and in different ways. As in many things leaning to one extreme or the other is rarely the best for everyone.

[Derek Cohen]

I read a Chris Schwarz blog on a related topic recently. It was titled, "Why I adhore my machines". He expressed my own views very well in this quote, below ...

Stupid: Making a jig to cut a compound angle on the table saw.
Not stupid: Knifing a line and cutting the compound angle with a carcase saw.
Stupid: Processing 200 board feet of rough lumber with a jack plane.
Not stupid: Using an electric jointer and planer to do the work in an afternoon.

Further to this, I have watched videos of woodworkers building tables with machines where they went to inordinate lengths to create jigs to cut curves or angles. What was really a simple project turned into a complex and lengthy procedure. I wanted to scream out, "just pick up a carcase saw and saw to the line. Then finish with a spokeshave". That would have been too simple.

Another time, I was demonstrating mortice-and-tenon joint making with chisels and tenon saw at my woodworking club. I passed the pieces around to members to look at. One came up to me later to ask how the parts were sanded to obtain the finish I got. Of course they were planed in 2 minutes - I just took for granted the finish (that would require probably several grits of sandpaper, not to mention the dust and rounded corners).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

I read a Chris Schwarz blog on a related topic recently. It was titled, "Why I adhore my machines". He expressed my own views very well in this quote, below ...

Stupid: Making a jig to cut a compound angle on the table saw.
Not stupid: Knifing a line and cutting the compound angle with a carcase saw.
Stupid: Processing 200 board feet of rough lumber with a jack plane.
Not stupid: Using an electric jointer and planer to do the work in an afternoon.

Further to this, I have watched videos of woodworkers building tables with machines where they went to inordinate lengths to create jigs to cut curves or angles. What was really a simple project turned into a complex and lengthy procedure. I wanted to scream out, "just pick up a carcase saw and saw to the line. Then finish with a spokeshave". That would have been too simple.

Another time, I was demonstrating mortice-and-tenon joint making with chisels and tenon saw at my woodworking club. I passed the pieces around to members to look at. One came up to me later to ask how the parts were sanded to obtain the finish I got. Of course they were planed in 2 minutes - I just took for granted the finish (that would require probably several grits of sandpaper, not to mention the dust and rounded corners).

Regards from Perth

Derek

+1. I love my hand tools and since you folks taught me about planes, I almost never use sand paper. Heck, sometimes I go plane a board or sharpen a tool just for the feel of it. But what Derek and Lowell describe is my "normal" approach. I use machines for heavy work and hand tools for fine work.

But like Glenn said, that's just the way I like to work. I have nothing but respect for people like Warren Mickley who do it all by hand.

[Brent Cutshall]

Yeah, it's a good show, but every time they did a scene with those hand tools in the background I never heard what they said,(weird? maybe). They are ,without a doubt, modernistic woodworkers and they are good at what they do. But they spent about fifteen minutes talking about lumber selection and why to or not to get certain things. I mean come on, you haven't sweated lumber selection until you've went out, spotted a tree, crosscut or hewed it down, length it,(took a break for lunch), hand ripped out the boards, jointed the boards, and then you make the what you want to make. I like it when someone asks me."How did you do this?", I can reply, "By hand". Call me stubborn, you just might be right. Know what I'm talking about?

[george wilson]

I haven't seen that show. But it irritates me that everyone has the word "SMITH" applied to their name. A SMITH is someone who HAMMERS his work into shape. You've got "bike smiths",and all kinds of smiths popping up everywhere. I would not like to have my BIKE(If I HAD one) hammered on by a SMITH!!!

So,if I see a show labeled "SMITH"it is a signal that the show will be a bunch of amateurs who can't even come up with a correct name for their show.

[Rob Luter]

I haven't seen that show. But it irritates me that everyone has the word "SMITH" applied to their name. A SMITH is someone who HAMMERS his work into shape......


Like Breadsmith? Hammering together grains and yeast to make artisanal baked goods?

Seriously though, I've seen the show and it's not too bad. The target audience seems to be the beginning guy/gal with limited time who wants to have woodworking as a hobby. Most of the projects are pretty simple and take advantage of power tools where it makes sense. The level of complexity is akin to high school woodshop. There's no shame in using electrons to do some of the work for you. If I'm short on time I do the same

[Art Mann]

Obviously, the show is dedicated to power tool woodworkers. There are far more of those in the wild than there are hand tool woodworkers. The hand tools in the background are just for show. There are plenty of other shows that focus on hand tools. Why not just watch them?

[Simon MacGowen]

Paul Sellers teaches traditional woodworking and uses machines to prepare stock for his classes. He uses the cordless drills a lot, too. Woodsmith has always been a power-tool program/publication but in recent years -- in response to the increasing interest in traditional tools -- has added some coverage of hand tools. They are by no means experts in the use of hand tools. That's fine and I see a similar move at Wood magazine.

I know of no one personally who is 100% hand-tool. Some may have ditched their tablesaws but insist to keep their bandsaws and drill presses. I like to joke to go totally unplugged, start with oil lamps and turn off the lights.

Something is better done with hand tools while others with power tools. As for sanding, who says it is a bad thing? Sand papers are abundant in my shop and so are handplanes and card scrapers.

Simon

[john zulu]

I started with hand tools. After a few projects solely on hand tools. I doubt I want to ripe through hardwood using a handsaw. It is possible but so much energy is wasted.
Local hard wood is like chengal or resak in Malaysia.

I keep my LN 102 plane at my side for all projects.

[Blake M Williams]

I enjoy learning about and using hand tools. I still keep my power tools around though, mostly for cutting down large stock into smaller easier to manage pieces. It may be a long time before I go all out and go chop down a tree and hand cut or split my own lumber lol. Have you guys watched anyone split logs into lumber? What's it called, riving? Then they hand plane it smooth. They make it look like splitting it is faster than setting up and cutting on a mill.

[steven c newman]

Not everybody splits their logs..
344131
Some will fire up the old Farmall tractor, hook a web belt onto it's PTO, and run it through a mill. Before the Farmall came along, it was a Steam powered tractor.

Takes a bit of maintainence, though..
344132
Not sure if this saw could crosscut all that big of a log..
344133
But...not all power tools needed a cord....

[george wilson]

Saws like the one on the bottom were best used to saw firewood.

[steven c newman]

The mill's saw blade ( where the guys were working on a bearing) is the "small" saw blade. In the long view of the mill, look towards the wagon in the background. Leaning against the wagon is the large blade...at least a five footer, maybe larger.

Mill is now a permament set up, at the West Liberty, OH Lions Park. The "original, belt drive" saw.

[Frederick Skelly]

I know of no one personally who is 100% hand-tool.

The only one I know of is Warren Mickley. I believe Dave Weaver told us that about 18 mos ago.

[Rich Riddle]

I love watching that show. It's one of the few clean shows left on TV. Plus they don't waste a lot of time with tools that don't plug into an outlet.

[Steve Voigt]

I read a Chris Schwarz blog on a related topic recently. It was titled, "Why I adore my machines". He expressed my own views very well in this quote, below ...

Stupid: Making a jig to cut a compound angle on the table saw.
Not stupid: Knifing a line and cutting the compound angle with a carcase saw.
Stupid: Processing 200 board feet of rough lumber with a jack plane.
Not stupid: Using an electric jointer and planer to do the work in an afternoon.



Stupid: assuming there is a one-size-fits-all answer to whether you should process rough lumber by hand. For example, if you only have 8 hours to process 200 bdf, it would indeed be stupid to try to do that by hand. On the other hand…

Not stupid: processing 200 bdf or rough lumber by hand because (a) you have the time; or (b) you enjoy it; or (c) you want the considerable skill-building effect that hand-dimensioning confers; or (d) you could use the exercise; or (e) you want to experience what it was like to make furniture before machines were available; or (f) other reasons I haven't thought of but probably exist.

I've dimensioned a lot of lumber by hand. When I'm on the clock, I use a mix of power and hand tools. When I'm working for pleasure only, I use hand tools. If that makes me Stoopid, then someone please send me a stoopid hat. Please mark clearly which side faces forward, so I'll know how to put it on. ;)

[Derek Cohen]

Steve, I think that CS is arguing about efficiency. I certainly am. This has little to do with necessity or preference - one may be about cost and the other about personal use of time.

Personally, if I need to thickness or joint a couple of smaller boards, I will just do it by hand. That is fun, and woodworking is a hobby. However, if I was short of time, working on weekends and just trying to prioritise where I need to spent my time a project, then I comfortably use my machine if that is the efficient method.

Horses for courses, and all that. No shame in either method. Having stated this, one of the pleasures is that of developing skills, which is something I believe is shared among many handtool users. We need to remember that not everyone shares a go for it attitude.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[peter Joseph]

I've become 99% hand tool focused in the past few years. I did not intend to be, however, with 4 kids, and 2 full-time jobs, my shop time is limited to midnight to 2am in close proximity to neighbors who would certainly have an issue with my running machines. I may get 1-2 hours on a weekend where I can fire up one of my many stationary power tools (and sometimes I do) but I usually opt for a hand tool route. Prime example, I picked up 75bf of mahogany this past weekend. Instead of waiting until Saturday to run it through a planer, I milled the boards by hand and already cut the dovetails for the carcass. Project is underway and I got some exercise in the process.

[Brent Cutshall]

I'm 100% hand tool Simon! :cool: I love just using hand tools, I hand plane, hand saw, hand drill, hand carve, and do hand moldings. I'll tell you what, working with my hands (especially carving) has improved my hand-eye coordination, the grip in hands is to where I can crush a soup can and some cases a tail pipe in my hand, and a bee can't sting through the skin/callus on my hands. That said, a lot of people that I look up to and acquire ideas from are power tool users, I just take what they do and do it with hand tools. When I started out, I didn't have power tools or teachers, so I taught myself to use my granddad's hand tools, went from there, and I learned to love it.

[Brian Holcombe]

My suggestion is similar to Steve's comment, you learn quite a bit in understanding how to prep lumber by hand. I'd argue that being able to work by hand would actually make you a better machine tool user, understanding much more intuitively exactly what you are trying to accomplish with a jointer and planer.

After having witnessed experienced users make a banana on the jointer, I would think that some insight is necessary and if intuition is formed by first using hand tools until successful then all the more reason to use them.

Also, when you've used hand tools to that extreme when you step up to slab that you want (need) to flatten by hand because it's larger than all your machine tools can handle....you've got all the tools you need sitting on your shelf and the ability to use them.

[george wilson]

Brian: I can't help wondering how experienced(but experience does not always = skill!)they are if they make a banana on the jointer.

[Rob Luter]

Banana on a jointer? I'm intrigued. How does one do that?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Banana on a jointer? I'm intrigued. How does one do that? The blades are not aligned with the outfeed table. BT,DT!

[Prashun Patel]

It's one thing to say you love working by hand. It's another to imply someone else isn't a real 'man' because they don't do things by hand.

I am more fearful of the judgment that woodworkers feel for their method of work than I am by some guys who do more with power tools than I prefer to.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian: I can't help wondering how experienced(but experience does not always = skill!)they are if they make a banana on the jointer.

I had a similar wonder, lol.

[peter Joseph]

Agreed on all points except machine made dovetails, "real men" saw and chop their DT's :D:D


It's one thing to say you love working by hand. It's another to imply someone else isn't a real 'man' because they don't do things by hand.

I am more fearful of the judgment that woodworkers feel for their method of work than I am by some guys who do more with power tools than I prefer to.

[Mike Holbrook]

I happen to have a subscription to Woodsmith, given as a gift for Christmas. They do some interesting things, Vol. 38 / No. 224 has an article on spokeshaves which drew my attention. The article is actually on how to make a shop-made spokeshave. I was ok with using the drill press to drill parts out and did not object too strongly to using the bandsaw to rough out the curved shape, even though you might think an article on spokeshaves might actually incorporate the tool for the work it is good at. I may have smacked my head against the wall a couple times though when they set up the table saw with a dado blade to cut an angled dado....

"After setting up my dado blade to make the widest possible cut, I attached the sled to a wood auxilary fence on my miter gauge using double sided tape. With the rear body centered over the blade, make a series of passes, raising the dado blade between passes until the depth of cut creates an opening along the bottom edge of the rear body, as shown in detail "a" above."...

Really, OMG!... set up a machine with a complicated blade, make a special jig to hold the piece at the correct angle, set up a mitre gauge, make multiple passes, raising the blade....I suspect the majority of Neanders would pop that blank in a vise, saw down to a line with a hand saw and pop the wedge out with a chisel, finishing before any of those machine operations were done...much less figure out how to make the "jig" and actually make it. Making the jig seems more complicated than roughing out the spokeshave blank!

At the same time Derek, Chris and others make a good point about economy of effort for large planing or sawing jobs. Different horses for different courses, makes sense even if you don't ride horses. Prashun's comment about the temptation of judging our fellow woodworkers by their methods is another very valid comment.

[Steve Voigt]

It's one thing to say you love working by hand. It's another to imply someone else isn't a real 'man' because they don't do things by hand.


That's true, Prashun. Now, can you point to even ONE example of someone saying that (that you're not a real man if you don't work exclusively by hand)? I don't think I can. Whereas I can think of plenty of examples of the reverse, of people disparaging hand tool users for being too purist. Even looking at this thread, there is a comment implying that hand-dimensioning is "stupid," but I can find no equivalent claim coming from the other side.

What comes to mind is a couple guys who used to work for one of the magazines and now run a monthly subscription site. They regularly complain of the hand tool purists who scold them for using router jigs or whatever. Where are these people who are doing the scolding? I've scoured the internet and I can't find find them. I actually think they don't exist, except for a few isolated cases. They are mostly figments of the imagination of certain power tool users who are insecure. The vast majority of hand tool users I know are not purists; they are open, accepting, non-dogmatic, non-judgmental people.

No one should apologize for whatever tools they like to use. If there are a handful of hand tool purists scolding power tool users, they should stop. And the much larger contingent of power tool guys should stop complaining about being victimized and scolded by hand tool guys, because it's not happening. People should just use whatever tools they want and get on with it, without apologies or excuses.

[steven c newman]

I tend to run a "Hybrid" shop. No longer have the lung power to hand rip a plank ( Bandsaw). Don't have a tablesaw, due to no room. Have a router table, but most of the stuff I used to do on it, is being done with a Stanley45, and a spokeshave. Cordless drills and a drill press share time with the eggbeaters and braces. Don't have a "corded" Jointer, although I could on a bad day make a banana with a No.7c Jointah plane. I resaw with the bandsaw, then flatten with the handplanes.

Some set up a jig to do finger joints on a table ( saw or router) while I just grab a handsaw and a chisel. Used to router the dovetail in a PC 4200000jig thingy...now it is by hand. Not by choice, but by the fact the jig needs parts. faster just to chop them out. I still use a beltsander, and a palmsander....but I also use a few handplanes as well.

Have used the chisels enough on the last two projects, I need to schedule a Maintainance Day of sharpening. Chisels and plane irons need a bit of touch up. Bandsaw blades? one broke, two are DULL....next paycheck that will get fixed.
I use the tool I think is right for the task at hand, nothing more.....

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm 100% hand tool Simon! :cool: I love just using hand tools, I

Don't get me wrong. I do know that some people go 100% hand tool; it is just that I don't know them personally. For example, Tom Fidgen in Canada has now gone totally unplugged, after ditching his power tools.

Others also choose to do certain projects with hand tools only even though they are hybrid woodworkers. I have done a few like that, but on the whole, I use both machines and hand tools -- proudly -- for most of my builds.

One thing that some hand tool users would like to say is that they can do certain things by hand faster than using a machine and a jig. I'd prefer to compare the use on certain tasks by results rather than by speed.

It's all about quantity. No one can dovetail 10 drawers by hand faster than using a router and a jig or thicknessing 50 board feet of lumber with a handplane quicker than a thickness planer. However, I can fine-tune a joint with a chisel or plane to a precision a tablesaw or router can be hard pressed to match without test cuts.

Simon

[Pat Barry]

I'm personally not a great fan of Woodsmith show although I will watch it from time to time. I do think that the best show on TV recently was Tommy Mac series on PBS. Next in line is the Woodwright's shop but I don't recall seeing any new episodes - he might be in permanent syndication.

[Warren Mickley]

It's one thing to say you love working by hand. It's another to imply someone else isn't a real 'man' because they don't do things by hand.

I am more fearful of the judgment that woodworkers feel for their method of work than I am by some guys who do more with power tools than I prefer to.

We had a fellow write this comment on this forum, earlier this year:

"He certainly used machinery as much as possible. Not to would have been lunacy!"

It was rather insulting to those of us who are professional hand woodworkers. A comment like this did not bother the moderators one bit. But heaven forbid a woodworker should disparage the woodworking expertise of an engineer or a doctor.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am 3/4s with Steve on the "contest" between machine and hand tool people being pressed harder from the machine side.

Still hand tool people do tend to claim that we can do small, one off, jobs faster with hand tools which seems to get machine oriented people wanting to do a contest. The problem with the contests is where does the machine get to start? Is the machine set up before or after the starting buzzer. Many machine operations use some sort of jig which is typically not made after the starting buzzer. How long did the machine oriented person spend setting up their table saw: fence, miter gauge, blade depth, sliding table.... especially when they got it? How much time has been spent making jigs so the machine can do specific work? How much money was spent?......

In my case I am constantly asking myself how much money, maintenance and tuning are required to keep a tool, machine or hand tool, operational. The thing I like about hand tools is you pick a couple up and get right to work. I hate setting a table saw or router table up for specific work, although I realize some may relish that time. I would rather be mastering hand eye skills and learning to keep any and every type of blade sharp, skills which apply to most woodworking and or other endeavors.

[Thomas Schneider]

I'm not a hand tool snob, I have a full complement of power tools, but I think saying processing 200 board feet of rough lumber is stupid, is a little harsh! I have, on occasion, given up on a hand tool approach out of pure frustration with my ability, not because the task will take too long. I will go out on a limb and say if one was to process 200 board feet of rough lumber using a jack plane, one would probably be very good with a jack plane by the end.


I read a Chris Schwarz blog on a related topic recently. It was titled, "Why I adhore my machines". He expressed my own views very well in this quote, below ...

Stupid: Making a jig to cut a compound angle on the table saw.
Not stupid: Knifing a line and cutting the compound angle with a carcase saw.
Stupid: Processing 200 board feet of rough lumber with a jack plane.
Not stupid: Using an electric jointer and planer to do the work in an afternoon.

Further to this, I have watched videos of woodworkers building tables with machines where they went to inordinate lengths to create jigs to cut curves or angles. What was really a simple project turned into a complex and lengthy procedure. I wanted to scream out, "just pick up a carcase saw and saw to the line. Then finish with a spokeshave". That would have been too simple.

Another time, I was demonstrating mortice-and-tenon joint making with chisels and tenon saw at my woodworking club. I passed the pieces around to members to look at. One came up to me later to ask how the parts were sanded to obtain the finish I got. Of course they were planed in 2 minutes - I just took for granted the finish (that would require probably several grits of sandpaper, not to mention the dust and rounded corners).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

i suppose you are right warren. I am sorry you were offended by that comment. It didn't occur to me. It is lunacy though ;)

[Jim Koepke]

The problem with the contests is where does the machine get to start? Is the machine set up before or after the starting buzzer. Many machine operations use some sort of jig which is typically not made after the starting buzzer.

This reminds me of a friend who lived on the fourth floor of a building with a somewhat slow elevator. My thought that going up the stairs would be faster than taking the elevator had him wanting me to prove it. So as we went in the building I started for the stairs. He complained saying I had to wait for the elevator. I tried to explain one doesn't have to wait for the stairs. So I waited and still beat the elevator by going at a bit faster pace than planned.

I do not have the space for a shop full of machines. The noise would drive me nuts. The dust would be intolerable. Besides, the work involved using hand tools provides a bit of calorie burning that machines do not. To top it off, using a table saw scares the H-E-double hockey sticks out of me.

So my main power tools would include a band saw, drill press, battery drill motor, lathe, ROS sander, belt sander and chain saw. There are a few other handheld power tools around collecting dust most of the time.

I have watched Woodsmith Shop to get inspiration and ideas. I think it is where I saw an episode which inspired me to make a pizza peel to sell at the farmers market.

To me the idea of Neander wood working is more a state of mind. Speaking of which, Neanderthal man had a larger brain than modern man if my understanding of a recent publication is correct. Of course it didn't make them smarter.

To me it is using what is at hand to accomplish the task. A few days ago I had to modify some material saved from packing material for shelving units to make an adapter to fit two things together that wouldn't have done so otherwise. I guess a non-neander would head down to the place of purchase to seek a knowledgeable sales clerk. Good luck with that.

Today one of the things I wanted to buy was a top for a jar to sprout alfalfa seeds. They were out of stock locally. So instead holes were drilled in a Ball jar lid. I made a fixture with a lever lock to prevent injury and drilled the holes using my drill press. Then the backsides were deburred using a larger drill bit held in a tap holder.

To channel Larry the cable guy, it's about gettin' 'er done however you can.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

I walked away from machines to put myself through a handtool apprenticeship. From what I saw the people doing absolutely incredible work were heavily reliant upon their hand tools and very effective at using them and I decided that if I were to ever get any good at woodwork it would be a requirement for me to be able to do everything with hand tools in order to fully understand every aspect of doing by hand.

Here is some recent work, not on the blog, all by hand including the 4x4 framing.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/img_4617.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/img_4616.jpg

I have some follow up shoji to this that will be on the blog.

[Rob Luter]

I applaud those that work 100% with hand tools. I really enjoy the process and most of what I do is hand work. That said, I wouldn't be without my table saw or thickness planer. I have ripped plenty of boards by hand and frankly get better results faster with my table saw. I have worked a few boards from rough sawn to finished thickness by hand and found the process to be interesting but slow. For my needs and time constraints, it usually makes more sense to run the lumber through the planer for the heavy work and finish it up by hand. Unlike some, I'm not conflicted by this. While I don't care for the noise or dust, I have hearing protection and a dust collector.

[James Waldron]

[snip]

The vast majority of hand tool users I know are not purists; they are open, accepting, non-dogmatic, non-judgmental people.

[snip]


You forgot to put in the "present company excepted" limitation on that.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am more of a semi machine and hand tool snob. I just do not like big noisy, dusty, dangerous, hard to maintain/set up stationary tools. I think there is a middle of the road between the big power tools and hand tools.

I have had to do a good deal of construction work over the years. For all the cross cuts and rips necessary to frame, put up paneling, sub floors...very few people use hand saws. I find a Festool table a couple Festool saws and a drill to be: more versatile , less money, more precise, faster, better/easier for dust control, easier to move around... They out perform my stationary and corded tools combined.

I like the Festool tools because they are closer to hand tools, sharing many characteristics. I think of my Festools as corded hand tools. My favorite thing about my Festools is they are very reliable without much care. I use: the table, T55 track saw, the Carvex Jig saw and T15-14.4v. cordless drill. I actually made a second Festool table from a cabinet, specifically to use hand tools on: hand mitre saw, clamping table, glue ups. I am a big fan of the Festool table tops for clamping/multi purpose fences & jigs.

I know they are not hand tools, but they are much closer, particularly in regard to their reliability and ability to get right to work with much less set up. They can be taken to the work vs taking the work to them.

[Art Mann]

I have seen many disparaging remarks right here on this forum in which people who used power tools were not regarded as real woodworkers. One side can be just as judgmental as the other. I am not familiar with the quote you highlighted but there are circumstances in which using hand tools would be lunacy. Have you ever run or worked in a production cabinet shop? A hand tool woodworker would go broke trying to compete with power tool shops unless he is building some high dollar specialty product. Are you saying cabinet shops aren't woodworking shops? If you are then your definition differs from that of most people.

OTOH, if someone gets great satisfaction using his manual woodworking skills or if he is building some specialty products that carry a high price then hand tools make perfect sense. There is a guy in my town who makes furniture by hand except for using a planer at times and his products command a higher price than I could ever afford.

Let me give you a good power tool example. I use a CNC router to carve images and lettering into trivets, coasters and inspirational signs. I sell as much of this stuff as I want to and the people who buy from me are proud of their purchase. It is absolutely true that a chip carver could reproduce many of the same things and the hand cut work might very well have more character. However, I can make things at a price that is satisfactory to me and a bargain to my customers. It takes a lot more knowledge and skill to set up to make these things than most people have. My wife is a graphic designer by trade and all of our work is original designs. Am I not a woodworker?.


We had a fellow write this comment on this forum, earlier this year:

"He certainly used machinery as much as possible. Not to would have been lunacy!"

It was rather insulting to those of us who are professional hand woodworkers. A comment like this did not bother the moderators one bit. But heaven forbid a woodworker should disparage the woodworking expertise of an engineer or a doctor.

[peter Joseph]

I have seen many disparaging remarks right here on this forum in which people who used power tools were not regarded as real woodworkers. One side can be just as judgmental as the other. I am not familiar with the quote you highlighted but there are circumstances in which using hand tools would be lunacy. Have you ever run or worked in a production cabinet shop? A hand tool woodworker would go broke trying to compete with power tool shops unless he is building some high dollar specialty product. Are you saying cabinet shops aren't woodworking shops? If you are then your definition differs from that of most people.

OTOH, if someone gets great satisfaction using his manual woodworking skills or if he is building some specialty products that carry a high price then hand tools make perfect sense. There is a guy in my town who makes furniture by hand except for using a planer at times and his products command a higher price than I could ever afford.

Let me give you a good power tool example. I use a CNC router to carve images and lettering into trivets, coasters and inspirational signs. I sell as much of this stuff as I want to and the people who buy from me are proud of their purchase. It is absolutely true that a chip carver could reproduce many of the same things and the hand cut work might very well have more character. However, I can make things at a price that is satisfactory to me and a bargain to my customers. It takes a lot more knowledge and skill to set up to make these things than most people have. My wife is a graphic designer by trade and all of our work is original designs. Am I not a woodworker?.

I'd certainly consider you a woodworker as would most, but your use of a CNC machine brings up an interesting point.

If someone is very skilled at running their CNC, and produces an incredible sculpture in the process, are they then a woodcarver? I'd have to say no.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have seen many disparaging remarks right here on this forum in which people who used power tools were not regarded as real woodworkers. One side can be just as judgmental as the other. I am not familiar with the quote you highlighted but there are circumstances in which using hand tools would be lunacy. Have you ever run or worked in a production cabinet shop? A hand tool woodworker would go broke trying to compete with power tool shops unless he is building some high dollar specialty product. Are you saying cabinet shops aren't woodworking shops? If you are then your definition differs from that of most people.

OTOH, if someone gets great satisfaction using his manual woodworking skills or if he is building some specialty products that carry a high price then hand tools make perfect sense. There is a guy in my town who makes furniture by hand except for using a planer at times and his products command a higher price than I could ever afford.

Let me give you a good power tool example. I use a CNC router to carve images and lettering into trivets, coasters and inspirational signs. I sell as much of this stuff as I want to and the people who buy from me are proud of their purchase. It is absolutely true that a chip carver could reproduce many of the same things and the hand cut work might very well have more character. However, I can make things at a price that is satisfactory to me and a bargain to my customers. It takes a lot more knowledge and skill to set up to make these things than most people have. My wife is a graphic designer by trade and all of our work is original designs. Am I not a woodworker?.

Are you replying to Warren's quote? I don't see anything in his quote that suggests what you seem to be replying to.

[Steve Voigt]

I have seen many disparaging remarks right here on this forum in which people who used power tools were not regarded as real woodworkers.

Where? When? Which threads? Since you say you've seen "many disparaging remarks," can you link to more than one or two isolated examples? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to call people out publicly.

Earlier, Prashun implied that there were people out there saying that someone "isn't a real man" if he doesn't use hand tools. I asked if he could provide me with even one example, and I'm still waiting. I expect the same will be true of your comment. The angry hand-tool purist is a straw man that mostly doesn't exist. Yes, there are one or two of them out there, but that's true of anything.

[steven c newman]

Starting to sound like that "Pistol Grip Plane" thread? We all know where that wound up.....

[Malcolm McLeod]

I am a power tool woodworker (yeah, I know, I'm on the wrong side of the forum fence). But then 20 years ago, I read a book (OK, 2 books). It said tenons were easy to tune with a shoulder plane, and I was busy making crappy tenons on a TS (:: LN Med Shoulder appeared). This is nnnNNIIIICCCccee! Next epiphany came when trying to fit a 6ft x 7ft island top into a 12" Belsaw...??? (:: LN 4 1/2 Smoother). OK, maybe that crappy (=dull) block plane in the bottom of Dad's junk drawer could be of use? Sharp and it is. So, I lurk here and try to learn a little. I'll probably never be a Neander, but maybe, just maybe I'll learn something.

That said, I am VERY cautious about posting on this side of the fence. I have been a SMC member for right at a year, and there are certainly 'hot-button' issues that polarize people here; not counting the forbidden ones:
Glowforge (...maybe let the market decide? Or just bash each other.)
SawStop (buy it, or don't ...and let the market decide)
Plane design (Mateo's recent thread got nuked last night ...talk about polarized, geez)

And of course, Neader vs Power. I hope I'm somewhere in the middle, and so can see both sides, so please rest assured that there IS a bias here, each against the other. Literally hundreds of subtle, and not so subtle, jibes over the last year. Some in this thread. (I try to stay out if it so I don't get publicly filleted. But ask yourself, why would I feel I'm on the wrong side of the fence?) ..If you don't see it, perhaps you have drifted too far from the fence??

Granted, SMC is far more civil than the average internet exchanges ....but maybe both sides could ride shorter horses? ("Can't we all just get along?" - R.King). All tools have a place. Use what suits you and the circumstances. Allow other's the same without judgement.

If you're reading thru the progression of tone and attitude here, "emotion" has arrived and this thread is probably headed for the 'nuked' bin as well.

[Jim Koepke]

If you're reading thru the progression of tone and attitude here, "emotion" has arrived and this thread is probably headed for the 'nuked' bin as well.

I hope not Malcolm. If my intent was to do profitable production, then power tools in my shop would be the solution. It is difficult at best to make high end, high dollar products for a mass market.

I do not like to make things of plywood. However plywood is possibly the best solution for me when a large drawer bottom is needed.

Most of the people in my area are looking for quality at garage sale prices. It is difficult to sell for the cost of materials let alone making a bit for the effort.

Even the people who are looking for something 'new,' they want me to beat Walmart or Ikea prices with a hand made in America product.

The old saying, "there is more than one way to skin a cat," could be changed to woodworking, "there is more than one way to make a tenon or cut a dovetail."

Just like another contentious subject, just because I freehand sharpen doesn't mean I do not see the advantages of using a sharpening guide. I am just a bit too frugal and lazy to bother using one.

My idea of lazy may also be different than others. For me getting the work done right quickly gives me more time to lay back than my former coworkers who struggled with getting their work done without having to do it over.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Steve-
I wish I could retract that criticism, because it's moot and my intimation has just fueled a debate that a moderator might should not participate in.

The quote was in this very thread. I now suspect this was said tongue in cheek, but here was the comment I meant:

"They are ,without a doubt, modernistic woodworkers and they are good at what they do. But they spent about fifteen minutes talking about lumber selection and why to or not to get certain things. I mean come on, you haven't sweated lumber selection until you've went out, spotted a tree, crosscut or hewed it down, length it,(took a break for lunch), hand ripped out the boards, jointed the boards, and then you make the what you want to make."

Personally, I can appreciate the joy in harvesting lumber by hand, but not having done that doesn't make one less qualified to select boards for a project. I think.

FWIW, I agree with your sentiment and really wish I could take it back. But since you asked...

[Mike Holbrook]

I think there is a difference between making a strong argument for a particular methodology and for instance name calling or being too vehement about an opinion. Certainly topics are often hotly debated on these pages, even among people who may have become quite friendly over long periods of time. I think the hard part for most people is separating their opinion from "fact". I think we could even make a case that even "facts" are debatable. What proof do we have of "factuality"?

There have been a number of posts in the last year that sort of pitted engineering and or math up against experience which tended to cause strong emotions. I am of the opinion that science, engineering and math have no more claim on "factuality" than the ultimate teacher raw experience. For formulas/ scientific testing...to be valid the control group has to be perfect and any and all variables have to be exactly right. In my book the required conditions are never arrived at. I am quite certain that there are others who feel pretty much the exact opposite. I am ok with the other side of the argument up until someone denies my right to my point of view or starts name calling.

It seems to me that these discussions, yea even arguments, are our greatest opportunity to learn from each other. I do feel sorry for the moderators at times, as they have to make value judgements regarding where threads are leading and when to step in. So, one more time, thanks to our moderators for trying to keep us "honest".

[Joe Tilson]

The tools they use are from their sponsors. Powermatic all the way. Sell them tools boys, sell them tools. That's what it all about.
They do very well planned and thoughtful work and their explanations are so even the new to woodworking can grasp what's going on.

[Steve Voigt]

Prashun, you know I like you, but seriously, if that's the best you can come up with, I'll just say thanks for proving my point. The comment you quote from Brent was entirely tongue in cheek (if it wasn't, I'll apologize to you publicly and wash your car* the next time I'm in Jersey**). Should we take all satire seriously from now on? And even if you take it literally, I don't think that "haven't sweated lumber selection" = "not a real man."

I'll resume my lonely watch, waiting for some real examples…


* by hand, of course.

** Hopefully I'll never be in Jersey…I'm a Brooklyn guy! Why would I want to go where it floods every other week? :p

[Prashun Patel]

Looking back, Steve, I can see how it may be tongue in cheek. I'm usually the king of tongue in cheek comments, so I should have recognized it as such.

Anyway, whether it was meant seriously or not, I feel rather silly about all this.

Steve, the next time our flooding brings down a Jersey tree, I'll smoke signal you, and you can ride down on a horse and hew me up some wood while I watch reruns of Woodsmith Shop on my Smartphone ;)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Another time, I was demonstrating mortice-and-tenon joint making with chisels and tenon saw at my woodworking club. I passed the pieces around to members to look at. One came up to me later to ask how the parts were sanded to obtain the finish I got. Of course they were planed in 2 minutes - I just took for granted the finish (that would require probably several grits of sandpaper, not to mention the dust and rounded corners).

So, how long did you sand? :D

<run and hide>

[Brent Cutshall]

People, I posted this thread as a comic opinion. I do not think power woodworkers are any less than other woodworkers. The reason I use hand tools is because I am what some people may call "financially troubled". I don't have power tools because I can't afford them. If I need a tool, I will sometimes end up making one. I try to do power tool work with hand tools because I ain't lucky enough to do it power tools. I have got good using hand tools and that's why I like them. A lot of my good friends are power toolers, and I would love to have some of the toolage on that show. I chop or saw down a tree because I don't have a chainsaw because I can't get gas. Yeah, I would like to have a chainsaw, no I don't think it makes someone any less of a man. This thread was not meant to be an insult to power toolers, and I happen to still like the show. I fully apologize if anyone was insulted by my foolish rants.

[Pat Barry]

I won't give up my table saw and battery drill screwdriver as long as I live. All tools have a place. I'd you want to rip and crosscut everything by hand, and then drill all your holes with an egg beater and screw every screw by hand I won't try to talk you out if it.

[John Glendening]

I haven't seen that show. But it irritates me that everyone has the word "SMITH" applied to their name. A SMITH is someone who HAMMERS his work into shape. You've got "bike smiths",and all kinds of smiths popping up everywhere. I would not like to have my BIKE(If I HAD one) hammered on by a SMITH!!!

So,if I see a show labeled "SMITH"it is a signal that the show will be a bunch of amateurs who can't even come up with a correct name for their show.
Point well taken, but it's a little more complex.
"Word Origin and History for smith n. Old English smið "blacksmith, armorer, one who works in metal" (jewelers as well as blacksmiths), more broadly, "handicraftsman, practitioner of skilled manual arts" (also including carpenters), from Proto-Germanic *smithaz "skilled worker" (cf. Old Saxon smith, Old Norse smiðr, Danish smed, Old Frisian smith, Old High German smid, German Schmied, Gothic -smiþa, in aiza-smiþa "coppersmith"), from PIE root *smi- "to cut, work with a sharp instrument" (cf. Greek smile "knife, chisel"). Attested as a surname since at least c.975.

v. Old English smiðian "to forge, fabricate, design," from the source of smith (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/smith) (n.). Related: Smithed ; smithing.




Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper "
So, a custom bike maker could indeed be referred to as a "smith" - heating, pounding, bending metal both flat and round. Bu that's not the point, which is the skill to make something within a specific medium - wood, iron, silver deserves to be included in that etymology. Words evolve just like the rest of life. I like their work, but not their general exclusion of unplugged hand tools. That doesn't make them unskilled, but rather perhaps inefficient in some activities. I do find myself thinking how a handtool could be an equal or better choice without the need to torture more electrons.

There's another show on PBS called "A Craftsman's Legacy". The host is a very skilled bike builder, who appreciates the hand work of those who work in glass, wood, metal, clay, and other media to create some truly beautiful and in many cases exceptionally useful artifacts. i know, this is a manual arts forum that focuses on wood, but it is possbile to appreciate the work of others.

[Mel Fulks]

The OED is pretty clear that smiths heat and hammer. Yes,there are some goofy word distortions ; this "vetting " of political candidate backgrounds comes directly from veterinarian.

[george wilson]

Plenty of animals in the ranks of politicians!

[Mike Holbrook]

I think the message Neanders are interested in, in relation to machines, is often misconstrued. There is the frequent theme of hand tool fans taking exception to people with large stationary tools insisting on doing things with their machines that we believe could be done more easily with hand tools. As Derek recalls, "different horses for different courses". Hand tool users tend to relish the learning experience their tools require of them and somehow think they might explain this affection for their tools to machine oriented woodworkers so they can share in what we believe is a very positive learning experience.

It is a simple matter of perspective. There are many projects that do not require repeating the same joint many times. In those, "one off" cases, many here feel that the job is easier and more fun to do with simpler hand tools. That perspective does not mean the majority here do not understand that setting up a machine to cut a joint allows a large number of the same joint to be cut quickly all at once. Nor does it mean that we do not understand a table or band saw can cut greater distances in less time. We think there are lessons to be learned from using hand tools, just like there are from using machines.

The discussion here relates to the feeling and closeness one gets working with wood with hand tools. I don't think anyone is trying to say that hand tools are the only way to learn more about wood. I do think there are those on these pages who feel there are some unique and valuable perspectives that may be missed when the machine controls the process.

The issue being discussed in this thread, as I understood it, had to do with a TV show exhibiting a large impressive collection of hand tools without incorporating them into actual projects. Many here like to actually use hand tools instead of simply exhibiting them like decorations.

I think most Neanders understand that once one spends the money for a large powerful table saw there is the temptation to use it for everything it can possibly do. We have a similar prejudice here for hand tools that start feeling like old friends in our hands. There have been quite a few posts about people customizing, hammer/gennou handles, saw handles, chisel handles, even "custom" plane handles....to the individual user, making the tool more of an extension of the user. Many hand tool users learn to relish building the personal prerequisite skill set necessary to use hand tools successfully. The hand tool skill set is a little more about human skills and a little less about understanding how a machine works and can be adapted, with jigs/accessories, to do many jobs.

I don't think the discussion here was meant as any sort of slight against those who do all or the majority of their work with machines. I think the issue posters here are more concerned about is the implication that machines are the ultimate and final answer to all woodworking, leaving the hand tools to hang on the wall. From the perspective of many posters here, speed is not always the ultimate goal. We are often as concerned with: noise, safety, ease of use, amount of time spent actually using our tools vs tuning them, personal health issues from dust, smoke...how much enjoyment we get from our projects...

[Mel Fulks]

Plenty of animals in the ranks of politicians!
That might well have been the thinking. Still strange that the politicians use that term.

[george wilson]

The older and more tired I get,the more I love my machines!! But,the projects I have posted here could only be done with hand tools.

There reaches a point in modern manufacture where CNC machines can do marvelous things. One of my old journeymen,last time I heard,was running the neck making dept. of Taylor Guitars. Their necks are made on automatic CNC milling machines. But,they still have to be hand finished to eliminate the accurate,geometric tracks that the ball nose milling cutters leave.

But,machines still have their limits,and very fine,intricate things still are frequently done by hand. We had a young engraver in Williamsburg. He worked in the Engraving shop,where silver items were custom engraved. He obviously had a great deal of talent,beyond his actual years. He soon got a job working at the National Mint. Probably doing hand detailing on the plates used to print money. Much of the work around the edges of money is done by complex machines,which do the interlocking swirls and loops,etc. These started with ultra expensive lathes and other machines used by gentlemen in the 19th. C.for their hobbies. Indeed,some of the engraving machines they still use at the mint are quite old ones(unless they have been upgraded by now with computer controlled machines). I only know what I have seen on educational T.V. programs. But,the human touch is still needed.

I don't recall the young man's name,but back in the early 70's,he could afford to spend just a couple of thousands of dollars,buying a fine condition vintage Bentley in England(It must have been from the 30's or 40's),and having it shipped over here. So,he was known as "Stanley Bentley". That was SUCH a beautiful car!! Today,it would be worth well into 6 figures!! Things have changed so much,and everything is collectible!! I saw letters Stanley wrote back to the other engravers. They were hand written,but looked like copper plate engraving! I don't engrave all that much. Most of the decorative work I do in metal is chiseling(another whole different line!),but I'd have loved to possess Stanley's engraving skills to add to my own!!

But,the point is,even in today's World,there still is the need for hand work,expensive as it might be in some instances.

[James Waldron]

Okay, so here we are, 65 posts in and no one has yet mentioned a salient factor: Tools is tools!

There are hand tools, there are water powered tools, there are steam powered tools, there are electric power tools, there are pneumatic tools, there are hydraulic tools. Sooner or later, it seems prudent to acknowledge that they all have their place, their strengths, their weaknesses. All are used (or have been) used in woodworking. And each, it seems, has it's "fan boys." At a certain point, "you pays your money and you takes your chances."

In an infinitely prosperous world, we would each have a choice of truly choosing "the best tool for the job." With constraints on money, time, energy or will, that doesn't always happen. Some choose to live with such constraints while others struggle to avoid them. And some make choices on other bases, such as personal or family heritage or habit or a variety of other extrinsic factors. Then it bears mention that when the "best tool for the job" is one that is unfamiliar, there may be a steep learning curve; a "less than best" tool may offer a savings of time and effort in some cases.

To a degree,then, the never ending debate can often be reduced to placing dancing angels onto the head of a pin to see if just one more can be made to fit.

If the power tool guys want to join us, we should welcome them. If not, leave 'em alone. For all us "tweeners" with hybrid shops, take satisfaction in the fact that we have a broader range of options than the exclusive hand tool users. Always remember, the right tool for the job depends on the parameters of the job.

[Stewie Simpson]

Well stated Jim.

To avail this ongoing concern there is a simple solution.

Just add a new category to the current forum listing;

# Hybrid Woodworkers: (a mix of hand and power tools were used to complete your woodworking project.)

Let me be the 1st to sign up.

Stewie;

[James Waldron]

Well stated Jim.

To avail this ongoing concern there is a simple solution.

Just add a new category to the current forum listing;

# Hybrid Woodworkers: (a mix of hand and power tools were used to complete your woodworking project.)

Stewie;


I don't agree, Stewie. I suspect there aren't enough hand tool "purists" to populate a dynamic, dedicated category. And - in keeping with my post above - there's really no need. We already co-exist rather well the vast majority of the time and if the thought that "tools is tools" can gain a bit of traction, there can be peace and tranquility in the land. It's generally a fairly peaceful place already.

With very few exceptions (some of which have come to light in this very thread) most of us have no clear idea who is a "pure hand tool only" guy and who is a hybrid worker. To further carve up the site doesn't seem to meet any specific need.

[Stewie Simpson]

example; if a powered bench grinder is used during the process of sharpening your chisels and plane irons, you are a hybrid woodworker.

Stewie;

[Frederick Skelly]

The older and more tired I get,the more I love my machines!! But,the projects I have posted here could only be done with hand tools.

There reaches a point in modern manufacture where CNC machines can do marvelous things. One of my old journeymen,last time I heard,was running the neck making dept. of Taylor Guitars. Their necks are made on automatic CNC milling machines. But,they still have to be hand finished to eliminate the accurate,geometric tracks that the ball nose milling cutters leave.

But,machines still have their limits,and very fine,intricate things still are frequently done by hand. We had a young engraver in Williamsburg. He worked in the Engraving shop,where silver items were custom engraved. He obviously had a great deal of talent,beyond his actual years. He soon got a job working at the National Mint. Probably doing hand detailing on the plates used to print money. Much of the work around the edges of money is done by complex machines,which do the interlocking swirls and loops,etc. These started with ultra expensive lathes and other machines used by gentlemen in the 19th. C.for their hobbies. Indeed,some of the engraving machines they still use at the mint are quite old ones(unless they have been upgraded by now with computer controlled machines). I only know what I have seen on educational T.V. programs. But,the human touch is still needed.

I don't recall the young man's name,but back in the early 70's,he could afford to spend just a couple of thousands of dollars,buying a fine condition vintage Bentley in England(It must have been from the 30's or 40's),and having it shipped over here. So,he was known as "Stanley Bentley". That was SUCH a beautiful car!! Today,it would be worth well into 6 figures!! Things have changed so much,and everything is collectible!! I saw letters Stanley wrote back to the other engravers. They were hand written,but looked like copper plate engraving! I don't engrave all that much. Most of the decorative work I do in metal is chiseling(another whole different line!),but I'd have loved to possess Stanley's engraving skills to add to my own!!

But,the point is,even in today's World,there still is the need for hand work,expensive as it might be in some instances.

Thanks George. I always enjoy it when you tell stories like this one. It's like - what do they call it - living history. Which, come to think of it, is what Wiliamsburg is all about. :)
Fred

[Pat Barry]

example; if a powered bench grinder is used during the process of sharpening your chisels and plane irons, you are a hybrid woodworker.

Stewie;
I hate the term hybrid woodworker. I believe we are all woodworkers and there is no need for further segmentation. I will say that there can be a bit of snobbery expressed here from time to time wherein power tool usage is somehow synonymous with a lack of skill or pure hand tool usage is considered some sort of badge of honor.

[Stewie Simpson]

Pat; I think the crux of the problem is how does one clearly define Neanderthal. To my reckoning its envisages an image that predates the use of modern machinery.

[James Waldron]

Pat; I think the crux of the problem is how does one clearly define Neanderthal. To my reckoning its envisages an image that predates the use of modern machinery.

Really? I've always considered it a tongue-in-cheek term of feigned derision for our ancient tools and ancient methods. If you want to take it too literally, you'd have to limit your tools to rocks and bones, I'm afraid. I'm not ready to commit to that level of authenticity for the sake of complying with a jesting label.

[lowell holmes]

I fully apologize if anyone was insulted by my foolish rants.
Any one offended by your post deserves to be offended. :)

[Brad Barnhart]

I realize this an old thread, but, the more I've read through this, the more I have to say I agree with whats being said. Out here in nowhere Kansas, them tv shows being mentioned, I've never heard of.

I was raised on a small farm here in NW Kansas. My Father was in the trucking business, so, that's what's I learned. The tools & equipment we had to work on the trucks was, by no means, fancy or new, but we made it work. I learned to weld, use a torch, impact tools, tire tools, etc. Most of the work we done on the trucks was manual labor. Hard word was nothing new. But learning to use tools that were used in mechanic shops was.

We done our own engine rebuilds, rear ends, & transmissions, too. Tire work as well. I could tear down & rebuild Cat, & make it run like a new one.

I drove truck OTR for 35 years. Up until 4 years ago, woodworking was just something to do in the 36 hours that I was home. My health went south, & my back fell apart. I am now facing my second back surgery.

In my honest opinion, you can have tools runnin' out your ears, whether it be mechanics' tools, wood tools, computer tools, whatever. Just because you've got'em, doesn't mean you use them ALL, all of the time.

23 years ago when my bride & sawbones decided I needed to slow down, we started buying used wood tools, at the idea of my bride. I was still on the road at the time, so everything went into storage. I went to the library, checked out books on every tool we bought. Even the hand tools. That's not to say I'm a whiz with certain hand tools, but most power tools I can figure out. I'm a self taught wood worker. I don't know all the tricks, but I can get things figured out. If I can't, I'll get online & read up on it, then ask questions if I need to.

I got into the scroll saw pretty heavy, & managed to perfect it. I own 5 scroll saws, & use them all. I've made everything from signs to semi replicas. I have most all the tools a wood shop needs, or that I have room for. But the fact of the matter is, just because the tools are there, doesn't mean they get used all the time.jmo

[bridger berdel]

What I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that right over there... (motions vaguely upward....) is a whole forum about woodworking with both hand and power tools. Last time I checked, this was the neanderthal haven. Supposed to be about muscle-powered woodworking. So while I do use machines, I don't discuss their use here unless it directly addresses hand tool use, say the use of a grinder in sharpening hand tools. If I want to discuss table saws or routers or something there are other, better places for that.

Now, on topic, I picked up a beautiful little washita stone at a thrift store the other day for a quarter. Made my day.