SawStop vs Bosch ruling

[Kevin Groenke]

http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/initial-ruling-finds-bosch-reaxx-saw-violates-sawstop-patents

"An administrative law judge has issued an initial ruling that Bosch’s new Reaxx safety saw infringes on SawStop patents. The ruling in a case before the U.S. International Trade Commission could potentially halt the importation and sale of Bosch’s new saw to the United States."

[Roger Feeley]

I can't say I'm surprised. Stephen Gass is/was a Patent attorney as are some of his early partners. You can bet that he took great care in writing those patent claims.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'll bet that battle isn't over yet.

[George Bokros]

^ Times two

Maybe those that want the Bosch saw should buy them now

[Victor Robinson]

^ Times two

Maybe those that want the Bosch saw should buy them now

Though of course should Sawstop ultimately prevail you run the risk of having a saw that may not be supported...won't be able to get new brake cartridges...

[Kevin Groenke]

^ Times two

Maybe those that want the Bosch saw should buy them now

And a lifetime supply of cartridges...

[eugene thomas]

Well bet who wins will depend on how much money bosch wants to spend in coart.

[Ben Rivel]

If Bosch lost wouldnt that mean that they just couldnt sell the Reaxx in America? If thats the case youd be able to get new cartridges Im sure from overseas resellers and via eBay.

[Art Mann]

I don't care who wins. I will never buy anything that is connected with Stephen Gass. He hired lobbiests and paid 10s of thousands of dollars to try to get federal legislation passed that would remove my right to choose which kind of saw I buy. I will never support any company or individual that does that kind of thing.

[glenn bradley]

I don't care who wins. I will never buy anything that is connected with Stephen Gass. He hired lobbiests and paid 10s of thousands of dollars to try to get federal legislation passed that would remove my right to choose which kind of saw I buy. I will never support any company or individual that does that kind of thing.

I get your reaction but if lobbying (or paying lobbyists) is out, we'll have to stop buying tobacco, sugar, corn, alcohol, prescription drugs, firearms, fossil fuels, the list goes on and on.

[Erik Loza]

No opinion but one thing to keep in mind: Sawstop cannot be sold in Europe, which is a huge market. Even if Bosch cannot be sold in the US, they still can sell in Canada and the rest of the world.

Erik

[Wayne Fuder]

I hate to appear as though I am living under a rock, but can you explain to me Eric what prohibits saw stop sales in Europe?

[Ben Rivel]

I get your reaction but if lobbying (or paying lobbyists) is out, we'll have to stop buying tobacco, sugar, corn, alcohol, prescription drugs, firearms, fossil fuels, the list goes on and on.
Seriously. I love my PCS and sure am glad I bought. Such a nice saw.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

If Bosch ever develops a cabinet saw version, I might have to import one from Canada.

[Kurt Kintner]

No opinion but one thing to keep in mind: Sawstop cannot be sold in Europe, which is a huge market. Even if Bosch cannot be sold in the US, they still can sell in Canada and the rest of the world.

Erik

Road trip !!!

[Kurt Kintner]

Seriously. I love my PCS and sure am glad I bought. Such a nice saw.

Me too ......

[John Schweikert]

Comments such as these make me laugh. You do realize the 800b gorilla that Gass was fighting was the Power Tool Institute (PTI) which represents Black & Decker, Hilti, Hitachi Koki, Makita, Metabo, Bosch, Techtronic Industries and WMH Tool Group. So you side with the giant PTI instead of the little guy back during 2000-2006 when Gass was trying to license the tech to Ryobi and others?. And now that his product is a known, has some of the highest quality for table saws worldwide, your beef is a misunderstood interpretation of how he got to where he is.


I don't care who wins. I will never buy anything that is connected with Stephen Gass. He hired lobbiests and paid 10s of thousands of dollars to try to get federal legislation passed that would remove my right to choose which kind of saw I buy. I will never support any company or individual that does that kind of thing.

[Steve Wilde]

Me three...

[Erik Loza]

I hate to appear as though I am living under a rock, but can you explain to me Eric what prohibits saw stop sales in Europe?

That's actually a very good question. As folks may or may not be aware, the EU has some very strict rules in regards to what is and isn't permitted in terms of what a saw or other ww'ing machine can do. For example, dado on a table saw is a forbidden cut in the EU since it is a blind non-through cut being performed by the human hand.

The SS is forbidden because apparently, shrapnel could fly up towards the operator when the brake engages.

Erik

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Comments such as these make me laugh. You do realize the 800b gorilla that Gass was fighting was the Power Tool Institute (PTI) which represents Black & Decker, Hilti, Hitachi Koki, Makita, Metabo, Bosch, Techtronic Industries and WMH Tool Group. So you side with the giant PTI instead of the little guy back during 2000-2006 when Gass was trying to license the tech to Ryobi and others?. And now that his product is a known, has some of the highest quality for table saws worldwide, your beef is a misunderstood interpretation of how he got to where he is.

After Gass got turned down by the big boys, then and only then he petitioned the CPSC to require his invention to be on all new saws sold in the US. In fact, he was concerned about his rejection and making money just like the big boys. Art's interpretation isn't a misunderstanding, it just a different point of view with which I happen to agree. In fact, before Gass ever manufactured the saw and sold one here, I argued with Gass here at the Creek. His argument was disingenuous. If he'd applied to the CPSC before presenting his product to the Big Boys, I'd have to agreed with Gass's arguments. Gass is a patent attorney and his concern is more about his financial gain than consumer safety.

His products appear to be of a good quality but like Art, I will never buy one. I hope Bosch develops a cabinet saw. It's a short drive to Canada.

[Erik Loza]

I was told by the (then) Business Unit Manager of Minimax USA that they were approached about licensing the technology and that SCM was open to the idea until they learned the cost that was being asked for, in order to license that technology. Suffice it to say, there is NO manufacturer in any sector of this industry that would be able pay the number I heard without pricing themselves out of the market.

Erik

[Michael Pyron]

After Gass got turned down by the big boys, then and only then he petitioned the CPSC to require his invention to be on all new saws sold in the US. In fact, he was concerned about his rejection and making money just like the big boys. Art's interpretation isn't a misunderstanding, it just a different point of view with which I happen to agree. In fact, before Gass ever manufactured the saw and sold one here, I argued with Gass here at the Creek. His argument was disingenuous. If he'd applied to the CPSC before presenting his product to the Big Boys, I'd have to agreed with Gass's arguments. Gass is a patent attorney and his concern is more about his financial gain than consumer safety.

His products appear to be of a good quality but like Art, I will never buy one. I hope Bosch develops a cabinet saw. It's a short drive to Canada.

AMEN...from everything I've read about the history of the SS...as a fact my employer lost his manual to the jobsite version and SS charged him about $50 for a replacement...??? I think/hope if Bosch takes this to the end they will prevail...I just can't see how a concept such as an emergency brake on a table saw is patentable...

on the flip side, there is the concept of quantities of scale...e.g. if every saw had SS technology then the cost per unit would be way lower than it is now...if Gass was really concerned about worker safety then he would allow use at a reasonable price and then proceed to still market his products (which I have to admit are pretty darned good) and compete on a fair test of quality.

[Erik Loza]

Just a question out of curiosity, not meant to stir the pot. Is anyone aware of a case where the SS brake failed or malfunctioned in a way that injured the operator?

Like many of you here, I know folks who own the machine and are happy with it but this is an interesting discussion to explore, as long as it doesn't devolve into a bash-fest.

Erik

[Kevin Groenke]

+1 on the laughing.

Do all of you who would buy a Bosch or other Reaxx equipped tablesaw honestly think for a moment that Bosch, WMH, B&D, SCMI, etc... wouldn't defend their IP or lobby for regulation if they had been the first to make a tablesaw that wouldn't cut wieners or fingers? Do you think Bosch will let other manufacturers use their Reaxx system free of charge or for less than SawStop would have charged established manufacturers to license the idea 12+ years ago? Do know that this is the same Bosch that's complicit in VW's emissions scheme? Oh yeah... just some more pointless guvment regulations.

I understand the vilification that Gass experienced when he petitioned the CSPC to mandate stopping systems, but I do not get the widespread embrace of Bosch's entry (infringement) in the market. This is a classic David vs Goliath story with many of the bystanders routing for Goliath because David asked the referees to give him a handicap.


Comments such as these make me laugh. You do realize the 800b gorilla that Gass was fighting was the Power Tool Institute (PTI) which represents Black & Decker, Hilti, Hitachi Koki, Makita, Metabo, Bosch, Techtronic Industries and WMH Tool Group. So you side with the giant PTI instead of the little guy back during 2000-2006 when Gass was trying to license the tech to Ryobi and others?. And now that his product is a known, has some of the highest quality for table saws worldwide, your beef is a misunderstood interpretation of how he got to where he is.

I personally would like to see SawStop license their "flesh detecting technology" to other manufacturers for reasonable compensation so that new, innovative methods of stopping/dropping could be incorporated into more tablesaws and other machines. But I understand Gass/SawStop's defense of IP and patents, especially considering the way the industry stonewalled his efforts to bring safer machines to market back in 2000-2003.

BTW, SawStop has partnered with Griggio on the Unica Safe (http://www.fdmcdigital.com/article-details/category/news/articleid/95172/title/sawstop-and-griggio-to-develop-safer-panel-saw.aspx), so while SawStop saws themselves don't meet European safety standards, there are saws in Europe using licensed (I assume) SawStop technology which predate Bosch's Reaxx system, I imagine this may come into play in litigation here or there.

[Simon MacGowen]

The news itself is neutral to me as a SS owner. The course will run itself and in the end, one side will prevail in court. By then, we can talk about its consequences and implications.

After using SS for almost 9 years, I have had zero close calls or quality issue with the PCS. It has paid for itself as during the years, at least half a hundred pieces of furniture were made possible because of the premium saw.

Someone asked about failure rate of SS. Zero since it has been launched and you can get that confirmation from SS. One of the company executives made that statement to the press. But we all know some people said in some forums (Lumberjocks?) that they heard someone was hurt because the SS didn't work and blah blah blah ... without providing any support when challenged.

Simon

[Erik Loza]

...BTW, SawStop has partnered with Griggio on the Unica Safe (http://www.fdmcdigital.com/article-details/category/news/articleid/95172/title/sawstop-and-griggio-to-develop-safer-panel-saw.aspx), so while SawStop saws themselves don't meet European safety standards, there are saws in Europe using licensed (I assume) SawStop technology which predate Bosch's Reaxx system, I imagine this may come into play in litigation here or there.

Yep, that's correct and very interesting as well. I didn't go to IWF this year, so didn't get a chance to see what was going on with Griggio but whatever they have done, it would have to comply with EU standards. From their video, the brake behaviorally seems to act like the Reaxx and not like the SS, yet SS is partnered with them. Perhaps it is a Bosch brake and has none of SS's DNA in it and SS simply partnered up with them in order to get a branding/marketing foothold in the EU? Griggio is probably the smallest of the slider manufacturers in Italy, so perhaps they were willing to talk with SS when nobody else would? I don't know. I'm schedule to to go to Atlanta in a couple of weeks for some marketing meetings. I'll see what I can find out from the Italians about it.

Erik

[Mike Henderson]

Patents only protect in the country that issues the patent. So a US patent only applies to products sold in the US. I don't know how the EU works now as far as patents go. That is, can you get an EU patent or do you have to get a patent in each country. For a patent attorney, it would not be that expensive to get patents in most of the European countries and in Canada.

IF SawStop has patents in Europe and Canada, I expect they will bring a complaint in those countries now that they got a ruling in the US.

Mike

[Patents have a lifetime so eventually the SawStop patents will expire and anyone will be able to build flesh sensing table saws. As a patent holder, I support the right of patent holders to enforce their patents.]

[Earl McLain]

I was told by the (then) Business Unit Manager of Minimax USA that they were approached about licensing the technology and that SCM was open to the idea until they learned the cost that was being asked for, in order to license that technology. Suffice it to say, there is NO manufacturer in any sector of this industry that would be able pay the number I heard without pricing themselves out of the market.

Erik

Just a quick side trip--Business Unit Manager? BUM???? Got to be one of the toughest rungs on the corporate ladder at SCM!!

Back to the topic...I wish I could get over my distaste for the SawStop tactic, because they do indeed look like an excellent machine with the technology notwithstanding. Beyond that, for me having a single source for a component that would keep a high dollar machine running, I can't take that level of investment risk with my tool budget. Concern was expressed over the possibility of not being able to source Bosch cartridges in the US, but Bosch is much more likely to survive longer than a relatively small company, and sourcing parts from another nation is not as tough as it would be sourcing SS cartridges IF they folded.

(to be clear, I know nothing of their financials or any "hidden skeletons" or implying concerns of financial instability--just saying I personally couldn't risk having to trash a great saw for lack of a part that can't be duplicated)

earl

[Frederick Skelly]

I understand the vilification that Gass experienced when he petitioned the CSPC to mandate stopping systems, but I do not get the widespread embrace of Bosch's entry (infringement) in the market. This is a classic David vs Goliath story with many of the bystanders routing for Goliath because David asked the referees to give him a handicap.

IMO, Gass didnt just ask for a handicap. A handicap would be asking the Refs to let him throw his stone first while making Goliath stand still. Gass' trying to force everyone to buy technology he controlled via the CPSC was more like asking the Refs to chain Goliath to a tree and give David an assault rifle. :D:D:D

[Erik Loza]

Just a quick side trip--Business Unit Manager? BUM????...

Hahaha, I'll have to save that for later use.

Kidding aside, I want to float something else out there. SS's aren't cheap. So, I don't really know how much of the market share they really have. For customers who actually shop around and don't just blindly fall for the fear-based marketing (I'm not knocking them but I wish you guys could see the booth they put up at the big trade shows. Basically, "Buy ours, or else", with photos of dudes with 9 fingers, etc.) they are substantially more expensive than a lot of other Chaiwanese table saws and their "Industrial" model is not that much cheaper than Minimax entry-level sliding table saw. Their machine looks really well built but I'm not personally convinced how big of a piece of the pie they have. And keep in mind that their pie is only North America. Not Europe or Asia.

Erik

[Jim Dwight]

Thanks for posting the news. I wish it had gone the other way but it is only over if Bosch decides there isn't enough market to justify the expense. We'll see.

To those with SS saws I have nothing against you. To me, it is a bit like Festools. I like some features of Festools but the price doesn't seem supportable to me. So my track saw is a DeWalt. I might have to get a domino since there isn't a similar alternative but for now my hollow chisel mortiser is fine.

I am also in the camp of not doing business with Steve Gass. In addition to wanting outrageous fees for use of his patents he testified for a flooring installer that used a $100 Ryobi saw with no guard and no rip fence and hurt himself. Gass argued the injury was due not to the flooring installer defeating the safety devices that came with the tool but, rather, the manufacturers fault in not installing his device. On a $100 saw. The jury gave the flooring guy a bunch of money. Juries are like that but to take that position is, in my opinion, intellectually indefensible.

[Simon MacGowen]

Hahaha, I'll have to save that for later use.

Kidding aside, I want to float something else out there. SS's aren't cheap. So, I don't really know how much of the market share they really have. their pie is only North America. Not Europe or Asia.

Erik

North America alone is big enough for SS. I doubt that SS is scratching the surface only (55,000 + sold so far), though it is NA's #1 selling cabinet saw. 55,000 x $3,500 is still a lot of money for a small company like that.

Simon

[Jerry Wright]

Why would Bosch want to enter a market that Sawstop created unless it is to piggyback on another company's marketing. Hmmm. Who is the "bad guy" here? You maybe can tell that I worked for a company that successfully defended it's patents against European knockoffs - albeit high quality knockoffs.

[Larry Frank]

It is always entertaining to read the threads with the same things brought up by the same people. You either like Gass and his saw or hate it.

Personally, I reserve my hate, dislike etc for the real corporate villians....in my mind they are the pharmaceutical people who have raised the costs on things like an epipens and life saving drugs. Who really cares about a saw...you do not need one to live. The gouging for these drugs really deserves the dislike some have for the Sawstop.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Hahaha, I'll have to save that for later use.

Kidding aside, I want to float something else out there. SS's aren't cheap. So, I don't really know how much of the market share they really have. For customers who actually shop around and don't just blindly fall for the fear-based marketing (I'm not knocking them but I wish you guys could see the booth they put up at the big trade shows. Basically, "Buy ours, or else", with photos of dudes with 9 fingers, etc.) they are substantially more expensive than a lot of other Chaiwanese table saws and their "Industrial" model is not that much cheaper than Minimax entry-level sliding table saw. Their machine looks really well built but I'm not personally convinced how big of a piece of the pie they have. And keep in mind that their pie is only North America. Not Europe or Asia.

Erik

Erik,
I am a small custom shop owner/operator. Family business started by my father (a European trained millwright and woodworker) in the early 70's. I took over in the later 90's and at a few weeks shy of 46, have been running the shop for the past 21 years.

I set up a new facility in 2010/11. Spent about $200K to $220K on the stationary machinery. We have always had two saws, a full size slider and a 10" cabinet saw. The slider is great, but in our line of work (custom furniture and cabinetry and millwork) a 10" saw is just too handy to have. Many operations are easier both to set up and get done VS the larger saw. Also, with 3, sometimes 4 guys working it is not practical for one saw.

All I know with cost is when I was looking (here in Canada) for a minimum 5 HP 10" cabinet saw, the industrial version of the Sawstop wasnt a whole lot more than other offerings. Maybe 20 to 25%. It was a no brainer for me to get the SS, for two reasons.

#1, with employees - and with the 10" saw being traditionally the most likely to have an accident on - it is a very much peace of mind thing, not just for myself but even more so with my guys. I know I am very safety conscious and have a lifetime of experience working in a wood shop. With employees you just cant assume each and every day they come in, they will treat things with the same respect and awareness.

#2, I saw my father have a bad TS incident on one of our Delta unisaws. Severed all fingers on his left hand with a kickback. HE had a lifetime of experience and was not a risk taker. Accidents happen to the best sometimes. In the emergency room with him, before he went 4 hours away to the hospital that rebuilt his hand - it was gruesome. Like a pound of bloody hamburger.

WHen I was due to buy new equipment, I didnt need any marketing or fear mongering to make me want that saw. Besides the fact its a great little saw, if it can prevent one more incident its worth ANY additional cost IMO.

All the politics and so forth aside (it didnt play into my decision), some of us have practical reasons to have it in the shop. Like I said, it wasnt a whole lot more. And, for the average smaller woodworking shop I am familiar with, a grand or two isnt going to be the deciding factor. In a home or hobby shop, it might be. Just offering my own perspective.

JFYI my 10' slider is a Griggio C45, fitted with a Tigerstop fence. Its been a great saw seeing daily use for the past 5 1/2 years. But I'd not give up my 10" sawstop saw either.

The other thing I have to add - a lot of guys who are not in a working shop, where you are always under time constraints, under pressure to produce, etc might not realize that it only takes ONCE where you go to make a cut without setting things up properly, or taking the regular safety precautions etc, and take a chance. day in, day out, after thousands of cuts made safely. It only takes that one time of making a hasty decision/cut that you might get bit. That is why I have that saw in my shop. As a last resort so to speak.

I'd love to see this type of tech on more saws. If Griggio had their saw up and running in 2010, Im sure I would have gotten it. The more barriers to guys getting hurt all the better IMO.

[Erik Loza]

...it is NA's #1 selling cabinet saw...

As a guy in the industry for nearly 15 years, I've learned that everyone says theirs is the #1 seller and also, having sat in a number of high level meetings at a privately held company that is a leader in the industry, published statistics are almost always "fluffed up". Not arguing with you, just sayin'...


...All I know with cost is when I was looking (here in Canada) for a minimum 5 HP 10" cabinet saw, the industrial version of the Sawstop wasnt a whole lot more than other offerings. .

Interesting. I went to the SS website a while back and spec'ed out one of their industrial saws with the 12" blade (maybe 10" is a lot cheaper?) and sliding table attachment, basically trying to spec it out close to a Minimax SC2 Classic and, to my surprise, it was not that much cheaper. At least not down here.

Erik

[Kevin Groenke]

AMEN...from everything I've read about the history of the SS...as a fact my employer lost his manual to the jobsite version and SS charged him about $50 for a replacement...???

I'll give it to him for $20! - http://www.sawstop.com/images/uploads/manuals/JSS_User_Guide_3_11_2015.pdf



...I just can't see how a concept such as an emergency brake on a table saw is patentable...

Just regarding one aspect of the flesh detection patent.

Under U.S. patent law, an invention is patentable only if it meets the following four requirements:
The invention must be statutory - A patent was issued, so yeah.
The invention must be new - Nobody had previously used capacitance to detect flesh, thus it was new.
The invention must be useful. - A tablesaw that won't cut off fingers? Check!
The invention must be non-obvious - IMO since nobody had used capacitance in this application before, non-obvious follows. If it had been obvious Bosch would have done it (and not patented it) years ago right?



on the flip side, there is the concept of quantities of scale...e.g. if every saw had SS technology then the cost per unit would be way lower than it is now...if Gass was really concerned about worker safety then he would allow use at a reasonable price and then proceed to still market his products (which I have to admit are pretty darned good) and compete on a fair test of quality.

So why then is the Bosch not considerably less than the equivalent SawStop?

[Andrew J. Coholic]

As a guy in the industry for nearly 15 years, I've learned that everyone says theirs is the #1 seller and also, having sat in a number of high level meetings at a privately held company that is a leader in the industry, published statistics are almost always "fluffed up". Not arguing with you, just sayin'...



Interesting. I went to the SS website a while back and spec'ed out one of their industrial saws with the 12" blade (maybe 10" is a lot cheaper?) and sliding table attachment, basically trying to spec it out close to a Minimax SC2 Classic and, to my surprise, it was not that much cheaper. At least not down here.

Erik

Pretty sure they are 10" only.. I have never seen or read about 12" capability (was just on the site, nothing about 12" either).

If someone made a smaller size Euro slider with the same technology, I'd for sure have been interested.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

So why then is the Bosch not considerably less than the equivalent SawStop?

Because let be realistic... there isn't any company that spends large sums of $$ to develop a product, engineer and manufacture it and bring it to market, all out of the kindness of their heart.

Business' are in business to make $$. Not a bad thing. Its just business. Bosch sees what the market will bear for such a saw. So why would they "give" theirs away for any less?

[Simon MacGowen]

So why then is the Bosch not considerably less than the equivalent SawStop?

Bosch could price its saw well below SawStop's but it wouldn't want to for many reasons, one of which may be not to look cheap. Some buyers might wonder about its saw quality if it were $300 less than SawStop. Festool sets its prices way above others to create a sense that its quality is many times better than its competitors.

Of course, Bosch has the financial muscle to do so, but from a business point of view, unless Bosch wanted to start a price war (as Saudi did with its oil market share strategy), it need not launch its Reaxx saw low.

Simon

[Erik Loza]

.....So why then is the Bosch not considerably less than the equivalent SawStop?

Well, having seen both the SS and the Reaxx jobsite saws in person, I can tell you that the Reaxx is a LOT beefier looking than the SS jobsite saw. But since Bosch doesn't make a cabinet saw, it's probably apples and oranges to compare the two.

Erik

[Mike Henderson]

When I read these posts about people who say they will never buy a SawStop, I always think of the saying "Cut off your nose to spite your face."

Maybe it should be "Cut off your fingers to spite Steve Gass."

Mike

[Erik Loza]

Pretty sure they are 10" only.. I have never seen or read about 12" capability (was just on the site, nothing about 12" either).

If someone made a smaller size Euro slider with the same technology, I'd for sure have been interested.

You're correct on the 10" blade size. I must have been thinking it was 12".

For giggles, I just went onto SS's site and priced out an Industrial model with 52" rip capacity, sliding table, and 5hp/1-phase motor. This is as close as I can get a cabinet saw to a US-spec Minimax SC2 Classic sliding table saw. According to their site, an SS so configured is priced at $5,398, which does not include any extra carrtridges. The cartridges are $70 each, so we are basically looking at almost $5,500. That is in the same ballpark that I sell SC2 Classics at. So, you have a cabinet saw that does have a blade brake but does not have a true sliding table, a 4" cutting height, or a scoring blade and it costs what a real Euro slider does.

Continuing on that line of thought, a new Powermatic 66 (we can all agree, the benchmark of American-style cabinet saws) is about $3K with the 5hp motor. It does not have a sliding table option but the SS' sliding table option is $1K, but an SS equally equipped to the PM66 is still $4,300: $1,300 more expensive. Now, I'm not debating the merit of the braking technology or telling anyone what to buy but what I am saying is that for guys who can work safely (I have many, many customers who worked on PM66's for years and still have all their fingers, including my dad..), they don't need necessarily to pay an extra 30% to accomplish the same tasks and for customers who have the money, you can get a real slider, that not only is inherently safer than any regular cabinet saw but also cuts more accurately, for about the same price. Just some food for thought.

Erik

[Bill Orbine]

Or maybe Bosch can just put the Reaxx on the shelf for a few years and let SS patent protection run out....possibly 2021.

[Patrick Walsh]

I just purchased the SawStop Josite saw after my little Rigid poc bit the dust.

I looked closely at the Sawstop, the Bosch, a full size Makita and the Dewalt. Having spent a good amount of time behind the Dewalt at work and also the Bosch 4100 without the break i figured i would go Bosch. Both the Bosch and Dewalt are nice saws hard to find any real fault with. The bosch fence was kinda a pita being the back also had to lock to the tables. When dust would built up in the channels it could become a pain in the ars. The plastic base was a flimsy mess but otherwise the saw was powerful and reliable. The gravity rise stand was sweet. The Dewalt really is hard to find any fault with for general construction purposes. Its just a dewalt and for whatever reason i just cant get excited about Dewalt.

Back to Sawstop vrs. Bosch. I chose the Sawstop based on reviews and features. The small things Sawstop did like bevel adjustment, blade height and fence lock really sold me when i played with both saws. The stand on the Sawstop is just as nice as the gravity rise. One thing that turned me off on the Bosch was the gears for the bevel adjustment. They are plastic, being i will use this saw on a jobsite day in and day out plastic worm gears just dont sit well with me. Even full metal worm gears get all jammed up with dust more often than i care for. When this happens some knuckle head always seems to think it a good idea to just try and crank throught the dust as apposed to clean the saw. More times than not something ends up broken.

Anyway in true Sawstop fasion the machine is very very smooth and pretty strong. It is a giant pile of plastic but so is every other jobsite saw on the market.

[Ben Rivel]

You're correct on the 10" blade size. I must have been thinking it was 12".

For giggles, I just went onto SS's site and priced out an Industrial model with 52" rip capacity, sliding table, and 5hp/1-phase motor. This is as close as I can get a cabinet saw to a US-spec Minimax SC2 Classic sliding table saw. According to their site, an SS so configured is priced at $5,398, which does not include any extra carrtridges. The cartridges are $70 each, so we are basically looking at almost $5,500. That is in the same ballpark that I sell SC2 Classics at. So, you have a cabinet saw that does have a blade brake but does not have a true sliding table, a 4" cutting height, or a scoring blade and it costs what a real Euro slider does.

Continuing on that line of thought, a new Powermatic 66 (we can all agree, the benchmark of American-style cabinet saws) is about $3K with the 5hp motor. It does not have a sliding table option but the SS' sliding table option is $1K, but an SS equally equipped to the PM66 is still $4,300: $1,300 more expensive. Now, I'm not debating the merit of the braking technology or telling anyone what to buy but what I am saying is that for guys who can work safely (I have many, many customers who worked on PM66's for years and still have all their fingers, including my dad..), they don't need necessarily to pay an extra 30% to accomplish the same tasks and for customers who have the money, you can get a real slider, that not only is inherently safer than any regular cabinet saw but also cuts more accurately, for about the same price. Just some food for thought.

Erik
Urgh... I hate reading that argument. Most consumers are not going with 5HP saws. Try comparing the 3HP versions for one, and for two is the PM66 even still being made?! Its the PM2000 now that would be the comparable model.

Powermatic PM2000 3HP 50" - $3059.99 LINK (http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/powermatic-pm2000-table-saw-1792000k)
SawStop PCS 3HP 52" - $3249.00 LINK (http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/sawstop-pcs31230-tgp252-cabinet-saw-with-52-inch-fence-10-inch)

Between those two I cant understand who wouldn't go with the SawStop.

Now the only clearly cheaper route I looked into when I was shopping was the following:

Delta Unisaw 3HP 52" - $2649.00 LINK (http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/delta-36-l352)

But I had read so many bad things about Delta's customer service lately that I decided that one was out of the picture.

Then there is of course Grizzly, but yea...

[Van Huskey]

Urgh... I hate reading that argument. Most consumers are not going with 5HP saws. Try comparing the 3HP versions for one, and for two is the PM66 even still being made?! Its the PM2000 now that would be the comparable model.

Powermatic PM2000 3HP 50" - $3059.99 LINK (http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/powermatic-pm2000-table-saw-1792000k)
SawStop PCS 3HP 52" - $3249.00 LINK (http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/sawstop-pcs31230-tgp252-cabinet-saw-with-52-inch-fence-10-inch)

Between those two I cant understand who wouldn't go with the SawStop.

Now the only clearly cheaper route I looked into when I was shopping was the following:

Delta Unisaw 3HP 52" - $2649.00 LINK (http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/delta-36-l352)

But I had read so many bad things about Delta's customer service lately that I decided that one was out of the picture.

Then there is of course Grizzly, but yea...

The problem one has is even negating the safety aspects of the SS comparing it to the PM line tends to be apples and oranges.

The PM2000 is indeed the evolution of the PM66 but it is a much heavier and bigger saw than the PCS, it most closely compares to the ICS. The PM3000 is in another category above the ICS. The PM2000 3hp 50" w/casters is a $2900 (out the door shipped) saw unless one chooses to pay more and the PCS 3 hp 52" (professional T-Glide) is a $3000 saw (plus $250 shipping) w/o casters so $3550 as similar as one can get them but it still isn't the PM2000's equal (safety not factored in). So PCS to PM2000 (if you need casters) is about $650 difference. The ICS (which I view to be more comparable to the PM2000) in 3hp/52" is $4250 without casters.

In the end the difference depends on what one values and which saws one compares. To some the over $1500 difference between the PM2000 and ICS is negligible for others it is huge. For some the electronics aspects and the limits on certain types of usage (rare as they may be) along with the potential increase in operation cost through accidental firings with regard to the SS makes it less desirable. For some the "insurance" of the SS is a bargain.

I have no issue with SS, if one avoids companies who do business as SS does they wouldn't have a computer, phone, TV, car etc and I am not willing to do that nor do I see any reason to be a hypocrite and single out SS. I bought a PM2000 instead of an ICS (I did not consider the PCS) mainly due to the uber-deal I got on one with a factory US Baldor motor (sold off when Woodwerks in Ohio suspended building the custom PM2066 saws) at roughly half the price of a ICS at the time. Were I buying today I would buy a 5hp ICS (as I still have not wrapped my head around a slider for my work process) and be done with it but I am 100% happy with my PM2000, the PM3000 doesn't really come into my equation since I don;t need a 14" saw and it is the price of an ICS. I think the PCS makes perfect sense for most serious hobby woodworkers but I just prefer the PM2000.

It is interesting to watch the ebb and flow of this suit but is it a long way from over and could go either way BUT I would not want to be sitting on a Bosch saw at the moment with the potential to have a unsupported saw.

[Larry Edgerton]

After Gass got turned down by the big boys, then and only then he petitioned the CPSC to require his invention to be on all new saws sold in the US. In fact, he was concerned about his rejection and making money just like the big boys. Art's interpretation isn't a misunderstanding, it just a different point of view with which I happen to agree. In fact, before Gass ever manufactured the saw and sold one here, I argued with Gass here at the Creek. His argument was disingenuous. If he'd applied to the CPSC before presenting his product to the Big Boys, I'd have to agreed with Gass's arguments. Gass is a patent attorney and his concern is more about his financial gain than consumer safety.

His products appear to be of a good quality but like Art, I will never buy one. I hope Bosch develops a cabinet saw. It's a short drive to Canada.

As a business owner I had concerns of not only having to replace my saws with something inferior to be able to have employees in the shop but also the precedent that was being set. This was widely reported in the trade mags, interpreted by lawyers, and it could easily have wreaked havoc on the small businesses. Once the precedent was set what is to stop other forced buys? Shaper Stop? Jointer Stop?

Or my favorite, Bandsaw Stop, AKA, BS.

Van, you have some splain'in to do........:D

[Peter Kelly]

The problem one has is even negating the safety aspects of the SS comparing it to the PM line tends to be apples and oranges. The PM2000 is indeed the evolution of the PM66 but it is a much heavier and bigger saw than the PCS, it most closely compares to the ICS. The PM3000 is in another category above the ICS. The PM2000 3hp 50" w/casters is a $2900 (out the door shipped) saw unless one chooses to pay more and the PCS 3 hp 52" (professional T-Glide) is a $3000 saw (plus $250 shipping) w/o casters so $3550 as similar as one can get them but it still isn't the PM2000's equal (safety not factored in). So PCS to PM2000 (if you need casters) is about $650 difference. The ICS (which I view to be more comparable to the PM2000) in 3hp/52" is $4250 without casters. In the end the difference depends on what one values and which saws one compares. To some the over $1500 difference between the PM2000 and ICS is negligible for others it is huge. For some the electronics aspects and the limits on certain types of usage (rare as they may be) along with the potential increase in operation cost through accidental firings with regard to the SS makes it less desirable. For some the "insurance" of the SS is a bargain. I have no issue with SS, if one avoids companies who do business as SS does they wouldn't have a computer, phone, TV, car etc and I am not willing to do that nor do I see any reason to be a hypocrite and single out SS. I bought a PM2000 instead of an ICS (I did not consider the PCS) mainly due to the uber-deal I got on one with a factory US Baldor motor (sold off when Woodwerks in Ohio suspended building the custom PM2066 saws) at roughly half the price of a ICS at the time. Were I buying today I would buy a 5hp ICS (as I still have not wrapped my head around a slider for my work process) and be done with it but I am 100% happy with my PM2000, the PM3000 doesn't really come into my equation since I don;t need a 14" saw and it is the price of an ICS. I think the PCS makes perfect sense for most serious hobby woodworkers but I just prefer the PM2000. It is interesting to watch the ebb and flow of this suit but is it a long way from over and could go either way BUT I would not want to be sitting on a Bosch saw at the moment with the potential to have a unsupported saw. Back from the dead!

[Robert Parent]

Patents are wonderful in theory but that is about as far as it goes. In the end it is the guy with the most money to feed the legal system that usually wins. The key in today's business environment is to have a stream of new ideas and just run faster than the competition. Anyone developing new products understands this or they will usually fail in the market. One has to remember that several countries do not honor patents and just build and ship product. Patents are totally useless without the dollars to fight and protect them and most small companies just do not have the dollars. This perspective is from someone that designed new products for several decades. If Bosch or any company sees a big enough market a patent is not going to stop them from entering the market.

Robert

[Kevin Groenke]

Or my favorite, Bandsaw Stop, AKA, BS

SawStop had a bandsaw prototype around the time the first tablesaws come out. My recollection is that it sheared the blade in some way.

https://youtu.be/W3PLwNccpXU

Integration into more types of machines is why I would like to see SawStop license the detection aspect to other companies. Innovation is somewhat stymied at the moment with nobody coming up with an effective alternative. I would think if volume increased, as it would when incorporated into more types of tools, there could be more $ in licensing than in maintaining exclusiveivity. Of course then you would spend tons of money and time watching for license violations and infringement.

A ChopStop would be nice.

[Kurt Kintner]

AMEN...the guy is a completely greedy jerk from everything I've read about the history of the SS...as a fact my employer lost his manual to the jobsite version and SS charged him about $50 for a replacement...??? I think/hope if Bosch takes this to the end they will prevail...I just can't see how a concept such as an emergency brake on a table saw is patentable...

on the flip side, there is the concept of quantities of scale...e.g. if every saw had SS technology then the cost per unit would be way lower than it is now...if Gass was really concerned about worker safety then he would allow use at a reasonable price and then proceed to still market his products (which I have to admit are pretty darned good) and compete on a fair test of quality.

Sawstop manuals are a free download from their website .... Not $50 .....

[Patrick McCarthy]

Van is back!

Missed you, dude!

[mreza Salav]

Back from the dead!

Same thought!
Where have you been?!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Small businesses or large corporations have a right to make a profit and protect their patents. But to use the CPSC to monopolize a market and take away a choice from the consumer? Look at the timing. If the timing had changed it would be a more sincere argument. He's been in it from the beginning for the profit just like any other business large or small and he has engaged the CPSC in an attempt to monopolize the market in the name of public safety. If a large corporation did this, the same people defending Gass would be flaming the internet with attacks on large corporations.

When ever I read those "cut off you nose to spite your face/ cut off your fingers spite Steve Gass" comments I think some people are a little too self-righteous. At least the saw I buy should be my choice and not Steve Gass's.

Few things solicit more volatile comments that SS.



Few

[Ken Fitzgerald]

It's good to see Van post again! I hope he makes it a habit again!

[Ole Anderson]

Wonder who has deeper pockets, Bosch or Sawstop?

[eugene thomas]

Sawstop 2 products..Bosch.. a whole lot. I hope bosch crushes him....

[David Kumm]

Van, good to hear from you and you are still spot on. The build of the saws themselves is seldom part of any discussion. My question is when anyone's technology will translate to the larger saws. I'm partial to old 14-18" saws but the technology seems stuck at 10". Dave

[Chris Fournier]

I've owned a made in Canada General 350 and now a MiniMax 410 Elite S combo. I have been woodworking in my own shop for 24 years. I have all ten fingers attached just the way my mother issued them to me.

Cabinet saws are an old platform for the TS. Only in North America have we clung to this machine, to the detriment of the woodworking equipment manufacturers I should add. The cabinet saw makes sense for your average hobbiest, site worker, and small shop for many reasons: space, affordability, and high utility. I wish that I still had my General 350 as a dedicated ripping machine, bevel rip cuts being much easier to do on my cabinet saw than my combo because I could move the fence to either side of the blade on the General.

Now my sliding table saw does everything else other than the bevel ripping far better than my old cabinet saw. Far better, with less set up, with better results (large sheet goods breakdown etc.), and with a significant margin of added safety over the cabinet saw.

I would never buy a Saw Stop because I have left the cabinet saw behind in my woodworking adventure. If I needed one again in the future I would simply buy a used General 350 for no more than $1500.00 CDN.

My life is full of potentially dangerous objects and activities and the premium that SS demands for a blade contact brake is not worth it to me. For others it clearly is and they are SS customers.

I think that it would be great if other companies could bring this sort of technology to our market, competition is good for the consumer.

And yes the way that the SS creator attempted and finally succeeded to bring his creation to the market galls me and I wouldn't reward him with a purchase.

[Erik Loza]

Small businesses or large corporations have a right to make a profit and protect their patents. But to use the CPSC to monopolize a market and take away a choice from the consumer?..

Don't know if this made it onto the forums at any point but the SS folks also attempted to bribe their way into the market by throwing money at a number of California politicians a few years back...

http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/wood-market-trends/woodworking-industry-news/production-woodworking-news/Home-Depot-and-Lowes-Oppose-California-Table-Saw-Safety-Rule-161219825.html

The Assemblyman's bill (which didn't pass) would have made the blade braking technology mandatory on any table saw sold in California. Of course, you can only get the blade brake from SS and Gass has that patented. If you watch the video, the Assemblyman states that the added cost will only be $75 per unit. As a guy in the industry, I can tell you that is not at all accurate. The cartridge might cost $75 but from the manufacturing side of things, it would require an investment in the millions of dollars to re-tool production lines and also, since no manufacturer would tool up a production line "just for California sales" (which I'm sure Gass is totally aware of...), it means they adopted that technology, they would have to re-toll their ENTIRE production line to accept his technology. And again, who is the sole supplier of the cartridge? Also, the vast number of table saw injuries in the statistics he is citing come from contractor tools, not so stationary machines. Guy runs across his hand or across his thigh with a circular saw, that sort of thing. I tried to look for the statistics on that but couldn't find it, though I did read it at one point. I really wish you guys could see how much they wanted when they were peddling their technology, back in the early days, before they started selling the actual saw itself. It wasn't a case that nobody wanted to talk with them. It was the case that once they said what percentage of each sale they wanted, no business could absorb that and stay competitive.

Anyhow, I think the SS is a quality machine and if I were running a school or shop where I had kids or a bunch of knuckleheads working for me, I think there is value in it.

Erik

[Ben Rivel]

If I understand it correctly, a patent term is 20 years. This makes me wonder how much time SawStop has before the market opens to others without the risk of infringement litigation. The answer looks to be a bit complicated because SawStop has a lot of patents, apparently somewhere around 100. Did someone mention the founder is a patent attorney?

Anyway, I think they got started somewhere around 2001, and it's safe to say the clock is ticking, so there will be a safe date at some point. It will be interesting to see how widely the SawStop safety features might be adopted independently of SawStop in the not so distant future.

I don't have a SS but I think its an attractive safety feature, and if I was in the market for a new table saw, I'd probably get one.

I often wonder why nobody would license it when he tried. Not one taker? I can only speculate the economics must have been upside down due to his asking price because like I say, it's an attractive feature. It doesn't make sense to me to claim that manufacturers don't care about safety because they don't bear the cost, which is what Mr. Gass claims. Safety is a feature, and manufacturers in a competitive environment surely care a lot about features as marketing advantages. There must be an interesting story behind this question.
Read through this thread...

[Roger Feeley]

SS tech support told me once that they were playing around with a bandsaw. That was a long time ago so I would guess that they never got anywhere with it.

[Roger Feeley]

Bosch would have much deeper pockets but Stephen Gass was/is a patent attorney. His early investors in SawStop were his law partners, also patent attorneys. I'm guessing that SS as a company can get some cheap legal advice. Also, being a patent attorney, I would guess that the SS patents are pretty darn airtight.

[mreza Salav]

We can all speculate/bet on this.
I personally expected this outcome and my guess is the end result will be Bosch paying (probably out of court) to SS as a license fee; or they choose to wait this out until the patents expire.

[Roger Feeley]

To be fair, in Ossario v. One World, Gass would have simply testified that SS would likely have prevented serious injury. As to the event itself, Ossario (the injured party) was found 35% to blame and One World (Ryobi) was found to be 65% to blame.

As I recall the original case, there was plenty of blame to go around:
1. Ossario was not an experienced woodworker. He had recently come to this country and couldn't find work as an IT professional so he took a job installing floors.
2. He was not adequately trained.
3. There were no guards on that saw (it has crappy guards) and no manual was made available. I seem to recall that there was little or no training in how to operate the saw.
4. There was no stand on the saw so it was on the floor. Ossario was on his knees which puts him in a very bad body position
5. He was ripping a piece of oak flooring at an angle and was not using any fence (it's a crappy fence anyway).
6. The wood started to bind (duh) and he tried to push it through.

That Ryobi saw is the one sold at Home Depot for about $100. That's about as dangerous a table saw as I can imagine.

Ossario's expenses were around $150K and, if I remember, he had lasting nerve damage. Jury awarded $1.5M or so.

[Mike Henderson]

We can all speculate/bet on this.
I personally expected this outcome and my guess is the end result will be Bosch paying (probably out of court) to SS as a license fee; or they choose to wait this out until the patents expire.
If I remember the little bit of patent law that I knew, if you can prove willful infringement you get treble damages. I'm sure SawStop put Bosch on notice as soon as they heard that Bosch was working on a flesh sensing saw so it's possible that SawStop could get treble damages. Rather than go through a trial and have to pay treble damages, I also expect that Bosch will settle. That would be a lot cheaper than going through the litigation and losing.

Having a lot of money is no guarantee of winning. Having a lot of money can allow you to delay trial but if you lose, more damages will have accrued and the award will be bigger. Big companies don't litigate on emotion. It's all about minimizing the risk.

Mike

[Van Huskey]

If I remember the little but of patent law that I knew, if you can prove willful infringement you get treble damages.

While still true the bar to reach enhanced damages has been significantly raised via case law in the last 10 years. Meeting the current requirement of "willful" is significantly difficult, the determination of "willfullness" has been effectively taken from the trier of fact (jury) to a judges hands.

[Rich Riddle]

I own a REAXX and there is no "brake" just a cartridge like a pellet gun for lack of a better description. The patent doesn't last that much longer anyway....Bosch will likely keep it going to the near end of the patent in court.

[Mike Henderson]

I own a REAXX and there is no "brake" just a cartridge like a pellet gun for lack of a better description. The patent doesn't last that much longer anyway....Bosch will likely keep it going to the near end of the patent in court.
My knowledge of patent law is that the damages don't start with the finding in court - they start much earlier, perhaps when the infringer was notified. So if Bosch delayed the trial phase they would still be liable for damages from much earlier. If you lose, delaying will only make the damages bigger.

The case could go for years after the patents expire and the infringer would still be liable for damages caused during the time when the patents were active.

Mike

[Dan Friedrichs]

My quick glance at this thread title led my brain to think this thread was about the ruling (ie - measurement strip) on a rip fence, and some difference between SawStop and Bosch's version. I couldn't figure how you guys managed 5 pages of discussion about that until I finally gave in and looked...

[Van Huskey]

My knowledge of patent law is that the damages don't start with the finding in court - they start much earlier, perhaps when the infringer was notified. So if Bosch delayed the trial phase they would still be liable for damages from much earlier. If you lose, delaying will only make the damages bigger.

The case could go for years after the patents expire and the infringer would still be liable for damages caused during the time when the patents were active.

Mike

The trier of fact (whether judge or jury in a particular case) will decide the date that damages start and determine the damages partially based on that. In the end it can be quite subjective, even in a patent case. Whether to extend a patent case (within the allowance of the law) is usually a business decision based on simple risk/reward. Sometimes it is just about emptying out the smaller companies war chest which even if the larger company loses can allow the larger company to gain a competative advantage in other areas if they are able to cripple the smaller companies R&D money while they wait for the judgement to come and then be paid. Sawstop has a LOT to lose here, Bosch not so much. There is bad blood here between Bosch (and PTI) and SS and if Bosch wins (and/or when the patents expire) I expect an all out assualt on SS's market share, Bosch is merely the trial balloon.

[Kurt Kintner]

It was my understanding that some of the manufacturers feared installing a brake, in that they might be sued by people that had been hurt with saws without the brake technology that was available at the time of their accident, but not adopted...

[Mike Henderson]

It was my understanding that some of the manufacturers feared installing a brake, in that they might be sued by people that had been hurt with saws without the brake technology that was available at the time of their accident, but not adopted...

I think I read something saying that prior to the development of flesh sensing technology, the table saw was considered an "inherently dangerous" device and the user assumed the risk of using it. The development of flesh sensing technology could change that assumption in court, and manufacturers who didn't implement it could possibly be held liable. The saw manufacturers did not want a change in that basic assumption because it shielded them from liability.

Mike

[Van Huskey]

It was my understanding that some of the manufacturers feared installing a brake, in that they might be sued by people that had been hurt with saws without the brake technology that was available at the time of their accident, but not adopted...

This was mentioned in some of the PTI members letters/emails that was part of the Osario discovery however it isn't really backed up by a strong legal position. In GENERAL (each state has varied evidence rules) subsequent changes are not admissible (more states allow it in strict liability cases). If evidence was allowed regarding design changes for safety reasons then companies would never develop safer products. The companies simply did not want to pay the licensing fee(what has been reported as an unusually high licensing fee, and one can see the numbers in the Osario discovery) on a unproven tech which the inventor wanted to be held harmless in any products liability suits. I don't think there was any real fear of a products case based on not using the tech across their whole line or a previously produced saw.

[David J Blackburn]

Of course, the irony is that they didn't adopt it, but it exists in other saws, and they are being held liable for damages for not implementing.

So whatever else you want to say about SS and the PTI, wanting to avoid liability for injuries seems to have been a bad reason to not license it.

[Rich Riddle]

^ Times two

Maybe those that want the Bosch saw should buy them now
I purchased one by pre-order and am glad I did. I would imagine they would try to import as many as possible before they are barred, if that happens.

[Van Huskey]

Of course, the irony is that they didn't adopt it, but it exists in other saws, and they are being held liable for damages for not implementing.

So whatever else you want to say about SS and the PTI, wanting to avoid liability for injuries seems to have been a bad reason to not license it.

+1

While as I mentioned I don't think the members of PTI etc were concerned about adopting it from a liability standpoint (despite voicing the issue) it did bite One World in the butt when they did not adopt it (these suits have proliferated since that ruling). I do think they did not anticipate someone (Gass) going out and starting a machine company and bringing it to market AND succeeding. In retrospect I imagine the members of PTI et al might have negotiated longer and harder. That said the cabinet saw market is going the way of the dinosaur, it is becoming more and more a niche market. CNC is grabbing the medium/large commercial and industrial side and sliders dominate the cabinet market (in all but the smallest or most old school shops). The real market that is left and won't be evaporating soon is the site saws where Bosch, Dewalt and Ryobi have huge market share to protect but as North Americans learn and embrace the track saw that too will dwindle into a niche. Track saws are an area I think the tool manufacturers are doing a poor job educating and selling in NA.



BTW hello to those that have welcomed me back. I have visited often and just read, I have to limit myself with online forums I have so many hobbies it is easy to become involved in so many that I lose track of the amount of time I actually spend on them but I haven't lost my love of woodworking nor my particular affinity for band saws.

[Kevin Groenke]

Here is an old history that cites 3% of wholesale price per unit in early negotiations between SawStop and Ryobi's parent company, One World Technologies: to increase to 8% if adopted industry-wide. 3% does not seem ridiculous to me. 8% is pretty ambitious, but probably less than SawStop buyers are currently paying over comparable saws, so the market does bear the premium.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html

spoiler alert! This article presents Mr. Gass as a bit of a crusader for safer machinery rather than a greedy sociopath: some may find it offensive.

It's odd we never question where we would be today if "the industry" had succeeded in preventing SawStop from coming to market. I see two scenarios. 1- no saws that stop - basically about the same place we were in 2004. 2- steal the idea and Gass gets nothing (though surely Gass would have sued being motivated solely be greed). My $ is on #1 and I appreciate and respect Gass and his partners' dedication to the idea and the product. IMO the world (and our shop) is a safer place as a result.

[Dave Sabo]

Here is an old history that cites 3% of wholesale price per unit in early negotiations between SawStop and Ryobi's parent company, One World Technologies: to increase to 8% if adopted industry-wide. 3% does not seem ridiculous to me. 8% is pretty ambitious, but probably less than SawStop buyers are currently paying over comparable saws, so the market does bear the premium.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html

spoiler alert! This article presents Mr. Gass as a bit of a crusader for safer machinery rather than a greedy sociopath: some may find it offensive.

It's odd we never question where we would be today if "the industry" had succeeded in preventing SawStop from coming to market. I see two scenarios. 1- no saws that stop - basically about the same place we were in 2004. 2- steal the idea and Gass gets nothing (though surely Gass would have sued being motivated solely be greed). My $ is on #1 and I appreciate and respect Gass and his partners' dedication to the idea and the product. IMO the world (and our shop) is a safer place as a result.

wonder if Erik can comment on whether this 3% is accurate from his source ? From the tenor of previous posts, I'm thinking not.

[Daniel O'Neill]

Here is an old history that cites 3% of wholesale price per unit in early negotiations between SawStop and Ryobi's parent company, One World Technologies: to increase to 8% if adopted industry-wide. 3% does not seem ridiculous to me. 8% is pretty ambitious, but probably less than SawStop buyers are currently paying over comparable saws, so the market does bear the premium.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html

spoiler alert! This article presents Mr. Gass as a bit of a crusader for safer machinery rather than a greedy sociopath: some may find it offensive.

It's odd we never question where we would be today if "the industry" had succeeded in preventing SawStop from coming to market. I see two scenarios. 1- no saws that stop - basically about the same place we were in 2004. 2- steal the idea and Gass gets nothing (though surely Gass would have sued being motivated solely be greed). My $ is on #1 and I appreciate and respect Gass and his partners' dedication to the idea and the product. IMO the world (and our shop) is a safer place as a result.

I read the article. It's interesting and actually makes me appreciate some of the efforts more of the SS crew. I guess the thing that I've never appreciated about this whole situation is the constant suing or damaged blades (just my opinion). FWIW, I don't appreciate apple/samsung doing same thing. I think it's a waste of time/energy/talent. The article has a good point about when you when you want to upend an industry there's huge resistance. His motive (saving fingers) is a great idea (IMO).

[Erik Loza]

wonder if Erik can comment on whether this 3% is accurate from his source ?

The 8% figure is about what I heard. The thing to keep in mind is that if we are talking "industry-wide", or every table saw sold in the US, the jobsite-level tools that are all mass-produced in Chaiwan might be able to absorb that kind of increase in their margins but Euro-built machines won't. There is so little margin an entry level sliding table saw that even adding 8% to the selling price would kill a lot of sales. The Minimax CU300 Classic, for example, would increase over $1,000 in price to the customer if SCM had to pay SS 8% for their technology. My personal feeling is that if Mr. Gass had been less greedy and more willing to work with mfrs., rather than (I can only assume) strongarm threats or ridiculous demands of percentage, he might have gotten somewhere. Again, I had an SCM Group BU Manager tell me face-to-face that they were open to the discussion until they heard the percentages that were being asked. It's easy for someone who has no background in the production or manufacturing industry to say, "Oh, it will only add so much per unit", but the reality is that for a global, multi-million dollar company to retool entire production lines for just one market doesn't just add "only so much per unit".

Again, this is not an indictment of the SS product. I'm talking about the business side of things. I do agree with what Van Huskey said: Reaxx is probably the trial balloon and I would not be surprised if Bosch tries to empy SS' pockets with it. Mr. Gass might be a shrewd patent attorney but I'm sure Bosch also has shrewd patent attorneys, plus more money than ten Mr. Gasses. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[William C Rogers]

First, I did buy a SS. I looked a PM, Delta, and SS. My choice did not include what Mr. Gass did regarding the CPSC. My decision was based solely on my needs and safety. The CSPS would not give anyone a monopoly on a safety device, however if Bosch is successful I would think it is possible this feature would then be required.

[Ronald Mancini]

I have 12 US patents applied for, so I know something about developing a patent. The only patentable material that saw stop has is the implementation of the sensing part and maybe the stop part. This is not easy, and it was not done without extensive electrical help. Saw stop deserves to get paid for this technology if you want to use it!
Saw stop's problem was marketing; instead of looking at the volume/profit curve they came out with a ridiculous price. Every saw made today would probably include saw stop if the feature had been marketed correctly. When the industry turned up their nose at ridiculous pricing saw stop turned to devious means to get some money. They tried the legal system to outlaw non-saw stop machines. Very ugly technique! When that didn't work tried to interfere and increase lawsuit rewards, and later they tried to rile up insurance companies hoping they would increase their sales. Their final trick was to develop a good saw and market it. Now, they will make a profit, but never control the market because of their high price and potential customers, like me, who refused to be intimidated!

[Michael Pyron]

Sawstop manuals are a free download from their website .... Not $50 .....

yes, and I pointed that out to my employer after he went off about it while talking to me...he wanted a printed version, and I pointed out to just download the manual to worker's phones so they can deal with it as needed (of course reading such things on a phone is a REAL PITA)...this conversation started over the concept of the yet to be released REAXX...

[Simon MacGowen]

yes, and I pointed that out to my employer after he went off about it while talking to me...he wanted a printed version, and I pointed out to just download the manual to worker's phones so they can deal with it as needed (of course reading such things on a phone is a REAL PITA)...this conversation started over the concept of the yet to be released REAXX...

The charge of $50 sounds very reasonable for a color manual since a free alternative is available. When I buy concert tickets, I can print them free or pay $10 for mailed printed tickets. Some banks or vendors start charging a monthly fee for paper statements and bills and that is a practice I fully support in the name of the earth.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

The charge of $50 sounds very reasonable for a color manual since a free alternative is available. When I buy concert tickets, I can print them free or pay $10 for mailed printed tickets. Some banks or vendors start charging a monthly fee for paper statements and bills and that is a practice I fully support in the name of the earth.

Simon

Yeah, you could print the manual out in color on your home or business printer and give one to every employee. A professional printed manual will have nice glossy pages but is that worth $50? Not to me.

Mike

[Jerry Wright]

A chicken in every pot. Free flesh technology, free manuals. Maybe next nearly free wood products to all from non-hobby shops, oops! That's going to far:)

[Scott DelPorte]

Don't know if this made it onto the forums at any point but the SS folks also attempted to bribe their way into the market by throwing money at a number of California politicians a few years back...

http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/wood-market-trends/woodworking-industry-news/production-woodworking-news/Home-Depot-and-Lowes-Oppose-California-Table-Saw-Safety-Rule-161219825.html



Erik

I found it interesting that the article detailed the efforts by SS to influence legislation, but didn't mention the efforts that PTI put forth. A quick look on the website "Open Secrets" reveals that PTI spent $300K on lobbyists in 2011 and 2012 to petition the CPSC while SS paid $130K during the same period. I guess I dont see either side as being a villain for advocating their position. I know for years Ford and GM lobbied against airbag requirements until eventually they were made mandatory. During the years they were optional, many considered them not worth the cost, and chose not to get them. I wouldn't be surprised if during those years some air bag manufacturer lobbied to make them mandatory.

[John Lankers]

I have 12 US patents applied for, so I know something about developing a patent. The only patentable material that saw stop has is the implementation of the sensing part and maybe the stop part. This is not easy, and it was not done without extensive electrical help. Saw stop deserves to get paid for this technology if you want to use it!
Saw stop's problem was marketing; instead of looking at the volume/profit curve they came out with a ridiculous price. Every saw made today would probably include saw stop if the feature had been marketed correctly. When the industry turned up their nose at ridiculous pricing saw stop turned to devious means to get some money. They tried the legal system to outlaw non-saw stop machines. Very ugly technique! When that didn't work tried to interfere and increase lawsuit rewards, and later they tried to rile up insurance companies hoping they would increase their sales. Their final trick was to develop a good saw and market it. Now, they will make a profit, but never control the market because of their high price and potential customers, like me, who refused to be intimidated!

Bingo. This is exactly why I will never buy one.

[mreza Salav]

I found it interesting that the article detailed the efforts by SS to influence legislation, but didn't mention the efforts that PTI put forth. A quick look on the website "Open Secrets" reveals that PTI spent $300K on lobbyists in 2011 and 2012 to petition the CPSC while SS paid $130K during the same period. I guess I dont see either side as being a villain for advocating their position. I know for years Ford and GM lobbied against airbag requirements until eventually they were made mandatory. During the years they were optional, many considered them not worth the cost, and chose not to get them. I wouldn't be surprised if during those years some air bag manufacturer lobbied to make them mandatory.

Big corporations lobby governments left and right to influence their decisions in the directions that would benefit them the most and often at the expense of public (either in terms of $ or other things). SS is a very very small player (almost negligible) and they are getting the wack because people *know* about it. You pointed out to the same thing done by the other side.
To me none of these companies are saint, and they are not doing things for me or you; they do things to make money by all legal means they can.

[peter Joseph]

I will purchase a SS when my son is old enough to use a TS. I've been schooling him on proper safety techniques since he started playing with an eggbeater drill in my shop at 3 years old, however, the piece of mind is worth the cost IMO.

[Mike Henderson]

Big corporations lobby governments left and write to influence their decisions in the directions that would benefit them the most and often at the expense of public (either in terms of $ or other things). SS is a very very small player (almost negligible) and they are getting the wack because people *know* about it. You pointed out to the same thing done by the other side.
To me none of these companies are saint, and they are not doing things for me or you; they do things to make money by all legal means they can.
Yep, the problem is that most people have never seen the making of legislative and political "sausage". They only see the results.

Every company does every legal thing it can do to maximize their revenue, profit and market share. Companies are not altruistic.

Mike

[Chris Fournier]

I have 12 US patents applied for, so I know something about developing a patent. The only patentable material that saw stop has is the implementation of the sensing part and maybe the stop part. This is not easy, and it was not done without extensive electrical help. Saw stop deserves to get paid for this technology if you want to use it!
Saw stop's problem was marketing; instead of looking at the volume/profit curve they came out with a ridiculous price. Every saw made today would probably include saw stop if the feature had been marketed correctly. When the industry turned up their nose at ridiculous pricing saw stop turned to devious means to get some money. They tried the legal system to outlaw non-saw stop machines. Very ugly technique! When that didn't work tried to interfere and increase lawsuit rewards, and later they tried to rile up insurance companies hoping they would increase their sales. Their final trick was to develop a good saw and market it. Now, they will make a profit, but never control the market because of their high price and potential customers, like me, who refused to be intimidated!

Well written and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Chris Padilla]

Big corporations lobby governments left and right to influence their decisions in the directions that would benefit them the most and often at the expense of public (either in terms of $ or other things). SS is a very very small player (almost negligible) and they are getting the wack because people *know* about it. You pointed out to the same thing done by the other side.
To me none of these companies are saint, and they are not doing things for me or you; they do things to make money by all legal means they can.

Nicely put, Mreza. This is Capitalism at its finest. As Gordon Gecko once said, "Greed is good!" That greedy person wanting to make as much money as possible with his product will likely need help and a company is born that supplies jobs. Now there is a company employing people and selling a good product and hopefully making a profit.

[Erik Loza]

....To me none of these companies are saint, and they are not doing things for me or you; they do things to make money by all legal means they can.

A company I used to work for was promoting an "enter to win a machine at wholesale cost" (or something along those lines), way back when. The idea being that you got a bunch of fresh sales leads by folks entering the contest. The US manager asked me and the other sales rep if we could think of any customers who were right on the edge of pulling the trigger, maybe couldn't quite afford it, but would be good advocates for the brand to other customers. I think my partner came up with a name and lo and behold, guess who won the "drawing"?

Erik

[Rob Luter]

I don't care who wins. I will never buy anything that is connected with Stephen Gass. He hired lobbiests and paid 10s of thousands of dollars to try to get federal legislation passed that would remove my right to choose which kind of saw I buy. I will never support any company or individual that does that kind of thing.

Count me in as well.

[Walter Plummer]

I am kind of late to this discussion and what I can't find an answer on is what is Sawstop claiming infringement on. Is it hardware or circuits or anything physical or just the idea of flesh sensing in general? I understood the Bosch equipment was different and does not even ruin the saw blade. I see where that alone would be threat to Sawstop. Does anyone know? Thanks, Walt

[Van Huskey]

I am kind of late to this discussion and what I can't find an answer on is what is Sawstop claiming infringement on. Is it hardware or circuits or anything physical or just the idea of flesh sensing in general? I understood the Bosch equipment was different and does not even ruin the saw blade. I see where that alone would be threat to Sawstop. Does anyone know? Thanks, Walt

SS alledges a number of infringments in their original complaint:

1. the monitoring of the rotation of a cutting to so that it does not allows a reaction if the blade is at rest, to differentiate between safe and unsafe contact

2. a woodworking machine that has a system to determine if a reaction system is operational

3. a woodworking machine that has a removable single use cartridge that is expended upon triggering

4. a woodworking machine that has a system to retract a cutting tool below a surface in a short amount of time

5. a woodworking machine that has a system to use stored energy to move a component after an unsafe operation is detected

6. a woodworking machine that retracts a cutting tool away from the cutting area

These are the general issues presented based on the 6 patents alleged to being infringed.

[Walter Plummer]

Thanks for the information. Walt

[Erik Loza]

That's interesting. Gass was smart, in that he understood not only how a competitor "might" or "could" design such a system, even if it was mechanically different, but also, how the courts would probably interpret his patent language. The way he has that worded out, it would be like the guy who invented drum brakes for cars, getting a patent with something like "a means by which friction slows the movement of the vehicle in a controlled manner", then suing the company who comes out with disc brakes. It's a whole different technology and I would argue, even less different than how the SS and the Reaxx stop the blade but thing we all need to keep in mind is that patent courts aren't experts in any of this. They don't know anything about how you could or would stop a sawblade so as far as they might be concerned, his way is the only way.

I don't think any of this will change what Bosch is going to do but that's some interesting insight.

Erik

[Van Huskey]

I meant to update what I wrote earlier with the current ruling on the 337 case (337 is the code section of the ITC that covers US patent infringement this is what is called a 337 case).

The judge says my #1 and #2 above which is the 7225712 and 7600455 patent was not infringed. #3 and #5 are infringed (7895927, 8011279). The patents referred to in my #4 and #6 were not mentioned in the most recent ruling (9/9/2016) so there was probably a previous ruling that dismissed those claims but I haven't bothered to research it. It is interesting to note the patents found to be infringed are the ones that actually specify specific periods of time for an action to occur. My guess would be the times are chosen carefully to coincide with SS's actually reaction and accomplishent times in order to allow a 337 case for similar or slightly faster times and a public relations coup if the times are slow (along with a 337 case).

The other thing that interests me is when we will see the marketing/PR war, assuming Bosch prevails. Most of the public testing of both systems has been based on slow movement of the hand surrogates and unscientific data collection. One of these systems reacts faster and when "proven" no matter how small the difference will likely become the above the fold news for the faster systems despite how much actual difference in flash damage there is.

I should add that if I was planning to buy a flesh sensing site saw tomorrow I would buy a SS. Unless one if making a "political statement" against Gass or SS the chance of buying a potentially unsupported saw makes little fiscal sense. While the longterm viability of SS (like any company) is still an unknown if the importation of parts (particularly cartridges) becomes illegal the Bosch may be a museum piece in short order.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Concerns about unsupported saws are overblown. Although the ITC can halt importation of infringing products, that result doesn't help anyone. Instead, it is leverage that the patent holder can use to negotiate a licensing agreement with the company trying to import the infringing product.

This simply gives SS a leg up in the negotiation over the amount of the royalty. At that point, the ITC ruling gets negotiated away.

[Kelby Van Patten]

This was mentioned in some of the PTI members letters/emails that was part of the Osario discovery however it isn't really backed up by a strong legal position. In GENERAL (each state has varied evidence rules) subsequent changes are not admissible (more states allow it in strict liability cases). If evidence was allowed regarding design changes for safety reasons then companies would never develop safer products. The companies simply did not want to pay the licensing fee(what has been reported as an unusually high licensing fee, and one can see the numbers in the Osario discovery) on a unproven tech which the inventor wanted to be held harmless in any products liability suits. I don't think there was any real fear of a products case based on not using the tech across their whole line or a previously produced saw.

I think you misunderstand the concern. The concern was not that incorporating the technology would create liability for saws that had previously been sold without the technology. Rather, the concern was that, if the manufacturers began incorporating the technology into some saws, that would be evidence that doing so was commercially feasible, which would mean that they would have to incorporate the technology into all saws going forward or risk strict products liability.

The fourth circuit explained all of this in upholding SawStop's antitrust lawsuit against most of the tablesaw manufacturing industry. http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/141746.P.pdf

[Van Huskey]

Concerns about unsupported saws are overblown. Although the ITC can halt importation of infringing products, that result doesn't help anyone. Instead, it is leverage that the patent holder can use to negotiate a licensing agreement with the company trying to import the infringing product.

This simply gives SS a leg up in the negotiation over the amount of the royalty. At that point, the ITC ruling gets negotiated away.

It sure helps SS. I think you may be underestimating the bad blood between the litigants as well as the PTI, if they were going to negotiate it would have likely been prior to spending money on R&D to get around the patents. I just don't see Bosch and Gass sitting at a table and and coming to a meeting of the minds. Litigants in law suits, even corporations, are like parties to a divorce in that if they feel screwed or feel that the other party attempted to screw them they will usually be willing to cut off their finger to spite their had in a slightly more apropos phrase. My point was simply if I was going to buy a site saw tomorrow (which would now be today) I would buy a SS given from what I have seen their re similar in quality and I am much more sure that SS will be selling parts and cartridges next spring. Currently, it seems clear that the Bosch is a more risky bet but if someone feels their risk vs reward view of the situation leads them to the Bosch instead that is certainly fine as well but I would expect them to stock up on cartridges given their might indeed be a long cold winter in store. In the beginning I felt Bosch has about a 2 to 1 chance of prevailing, currently I would place it more like 5 to 3 in SS favor.

[Kelby Van Patten]

It sure helps SS. I think you may be underestimating the bad blood between the litigants as well as the PTI, if they were going to negotiate it would have likely been prior to spending money on R&D to get around the patents. I just don't see Bosch and Gass sitting at a table and and coming to a meeting of the minds. Litigants in law suits, even corporations, are like parties to a divorce in that if they feel screwed or feel that the other party attempted to screw them they will usually be willing to cut off their finger to spite their had in a slightly more apropos phrase. My point was simply if I was going to buy a site saw tomorrow (which would now be today) I would buy a SS given from what I have seen their re similar in quality and I am much more sure that SS will be selling parts and cartridges next spring. Currently, it seems clear that the Bosch is a more risky bet but if someone feels their risk vs reward view of the situation leads them to the Bosch instead that is certainly fine as well but I would expect them to stock up on cartridges given their might indeed be a long cold winter in store. In the beginning I felt Bosch has about a 2 to 1 chance of prevailing, currently I would place it more like 5 to 3 in SS favor.

I agree that SawStop makes some great saws. I have a slider, but if I were buying anything other than a slider, I would buy a SawStop.

As for bad blood, that can happen in some cases, even with corporations. But ultimately, in-house attorneys are accountable for what they spend, and they have to be able to justify it economically. I think Bosch may have misfired strategically by developing their own version of the technology. By doing so, and by putting it on a saw, they have demonstrated that it is commercially feasible to put finger-saving technology on their saws. The next time someone buys a Bosch saw and cuts off their finger, and then sues Bosch for not having that tech on the saw, it will be very awkward for Bosch to try to explain to a jury that it could have built its own tech or SS's tech into the saw, but it didn't want to have to pay SS's 8% royalty. That may be a tough sell to a jury (especially given that one jury already hit Ryobi for the same thing).

Legally speaking, I think Bosch has put itself in a very difficult position, and it has to get some kind of protection on its saws to avoid getting hit on product liability claims. They will keep fighting for a while, but if they can't win in the next year or two, I think we'll start seeing an avalanche of companies licensing SS technology.

[Van Huskey]

I agree that SawStop makes some great saws. I have a slider, but if I were buying anything other than a slider, I would buy a SawStop.

As for bad blood, that can happen in some cases, even with corporations. But ultimately, in-house attorneys are accountable for what they spend, and they have to be able to justify it economically. I think Bosch may have misfired strategically by developing their own version of the technology. By doing so, and by putting it on a saw, they have demonstrated that it is commercially feasible to put finger-saving technology on their saws. The next time someone buys a Bosch saw and cuts off their finger, and then sues Bosch for not having that tech on the saw, it will be very awkward for Bosch to try to explain to a jury that it could have built its own tech or SS's tech into the saw, but it didn't want to have to pay SS's 8% royalty. That may be a tough sell to a jury (especially given that one jury already hit Ryobi for the same thing).

Legally speaking, I think Bosch has put itself in a very difficult position, and it has to get some kind of protection on its saws to avoid getting hit on product liability claims. They will keep fighting for a while, but if they can't win in the next year or two, I think we'll start seeing an avalanche of companies licensing SS technology.

Not sure Bosch has misfired at all. The Osario case was somewhat scary but once it went through remittitur it appeared more economically feasible to defend these cases. Techtronic scored a win in Wisconsin in 2014 where a jury sided with the saw manufacturer and also a slight victory and last year where a man was only able to recover $80k. The plaintiffs cases are already somewhat uphill based on whether the state has contributory, modified comparative or pure comparative negligence. In each litigated case the user (plaintiff) has been found to be some percentage at fault which in some states completely bars recovery. While these cases continue to be filed they have yet to become a gold mine for the plaintiffs.

The bad blood only has to last about 5 more years when the patents run out, assuming Bosch does not prevail. Plus I think you may under estimate the vitriol the industry has for Gass, the corporate guys I have talked to remain quite peeved, and since Gass has become the star, go to, expert witness in the cases against them he continues to stoke the flames.

In any event I think the Reaxx was strategically introduced to bleed SS of resources ahead of the original patents ending.

[Dave Sabo]

I could use a clarification on the royalty cost. It looks to me like the original cost was 3% . It's my understanding that the "outrageous" 8% only kicked in when and if the tech was adopted industry wide.

That doesn't seem very likely to happen, so we're talking about a 3% surcharge right ? Do any of you professional managers and marketers think your sales would be significantly impacted by a 3% cost increase (that the customer is going to pay ) ? We see 3% price increases on many tools and that increase just goes to the co. for additional profit , marketing, expansion, raw material cost ect... and not significant improvement in function.

I also wonder if the 3% included the brake mechanism or is that simply the fee being allowed to design your own brake or buy SS version ? If it is just a fee, then how much would the mechanisms themselves cost me to bolt on my saws ?

I'm with Van on this one. Looks like a playground spat and SS's line in the sand has just been scratched out by Bosch and they're willing to see Gass has a big enough stick to run them off. Doubtful , as Bosch is heavyweight and can take several beatings - and has their own stick with which to swing back. I also think this is only the outer layer of the onion. Bosch didn't roll out this saw without market research and legal advice , and you can bet they have a complete long term strategy which anticipated challenges and setbacks in the near term. They also didn't bring the reaxx to market for vanity or solely to stick it to Gass -that's just a bonus.

As someone also alluded Bosch is prob. thinking global in terms of marketing these saws - something I'm guessing SS is not equipped to handle either in terms of marketing , meeting production if the market were developed, or mounting a sustained multi front legal challenge in those countries in which it has zero presence.

I think their best course long term is to make a better product and market the heck out of it. Their cabinet saw is a really nice saw even without the brake tech. Personally, I think guys make too big a deal out of this break tech anyway. Sure it's great, but four or five generations of tablesaw users here and in Europe have managed to learn and use the tool safely without incident because of skill. There will always be accidents, no matter the safety devices installed on any equipment. And the day is coming when the SS and Reaxx mechanisms fails to perform because of the weather, or Father Time, or the offshore supplier used a cheaper supplier for the stopping charge, or whatever - and then we can all discuss the ensuing legal case that brings.

[Jerome Stanek]

I could use a clarification on the royalty cost. It looks to me like the original cost was 3% . It's my understanding that the "outrageous" 8% only kicked in when and if the tech was adopted industry wide.

That doesn't seem very likely to happen, so we're talking about a 3% surcharge right ? Do any of you professional managers and marketers think your sales would be significantly impacted by a 3% cost increase (that the customer is going to pay ) ? We see 3% price increases on many tools and that increase just goes to the co. for additional profit , marketing, expansion, raw material cost ect... and not significant improvement in function.

I also wonder if the 3% included the brake mechanism or is that simply the fee being allowed to design your own brake or buy SS version ? If it is just a fee, then how much would the mechanisms themselves cost me to bolt on my saws ?

I'm with Van on this one. Looks like a playground spat and SS's line in the sand has just been scratched out by Bosch and they're willing to see Gass has a big enough stick to run them off. Doubtful , as Bosch is heavyweight and can take several beatings - and has their own stick with which to swing back. I also think this is only the outer layer of the onion. Bosch didn't roll out this saw without market research and legal advice , and you can bet they have a complete long term strategy which anticipated challenges and setbacks in the near term. They also didn't bring the reaxx to market for vanity or solely to stick it to Gass -that's just a bonus.

As someone also alluded Bosch is prob. thinking global in terms of marketing these saws - something I'm guessing SS is not equipped to handle either in terms of marketing , meeting production if the market were developed, or mounting a sustained multi front legal challenge in those countries in which it has zero presence.

I think their best course long term is to make a better product and market the heck out of it. Their cabinet saw is a really nice saw even without the brake tech. Personally, I think guys make too big a deal out of this break tech anyway. Sure it's great, but four or five generations of tablesaw users here and in Europe have managed to learn and use the tool safely without incident because of skill. There will always be accidents, no matter the safety devices installed on any equipment. And the day is coming when the SS and Reaxx mechanisms fails to perform because of the weather, or Father Time, or the offshore supplier used a cheaper supplier for the stopping charge, or whatever - and then we can all discuss the ensuing legal case that brings.

I don't think it is just a bolt on unit the saw would have to be designed from the ground up. If the 3% is just a fee that would add a lot to the cost of the saw. Even 8% on a $3,000 saw would be pushing it to get a slider instead

[David Kumm]

We also need to remember that 10" saws are primarily hobby or small shop machines and the technology doesn't seem to adapt well to larger blades which are the norm in a commercial setting. Companies would need to redesign all saws and buyers would need to accept the limitations of the smaller blade. Would machines with electronic rise, fall, or tilt be able to cope with the shock of the arbor assembly suddenly stopping and retracting and would the scoring blade also need that capability? As the spinning mass increases, and the amount and speed of the drop increases, the stress on the parts does too.

I'm not advocating stepping back in time, but we need to be realistic that adapting the technology to many saws will cost way more than 3%, or even 8%. Dave

[Rich Riddle]

In any event I think the Reaxx was strategically introduced to bleed SS of resources ahead of the original patents ending.The REAXX bled some of my resources from SawStop. I read some of the patents Gass used and to a layman they seemed intentionally vague. They said any flesh sensing technology on any type of tool, not just a table saw. You'd better believe when the patents expire that more tools will have the technology. It's possible that the "skin sensing" technology exists for other power tools but other inventors won't market their tools at the present time and offer SawStop the ability to reverse engineer their ideas while simultaneously profiting from others' work.

[Jerome Stanek]

Skin sensing technology has been around for a long time I had a lamp way back in the 70s that used it so I don't see how Gass can claim he developed it.

[Mike Henderson]

Skin sensing technology has been around for a long time I had a lamp way back in the 70s that used it so I don't see how Gass can claim he developed it.
I don't think flesh sensing is the patented technology - it's how the sensing is done and then what happens after the sensing occurs. Back when we were young, there was a capacitance technology that could sense when you touched something (or actually just got very close) and it would (for example) turn a light on or off. That technology could not be patented for a number of reasons.

Mike

[Kelby Van Patten]

Not sure Bosch has misfired at all. The Osario case was somewhat scary but once it went through remittitur it appeared more economically feasible to defend these cases.

What remittitur? Last I checked, the appellate opinion upheld a $1.5M judgment, which was the full amount of the jury's award. And even though the jury found Osario 35% negligent, that did not reduce the damages award at all.

[Curt Harms]

Yeah, you could print the manual out in color on your home or business printer and give one to every employee. A professional printed manual will have nice glossy pages but is that worth $50? Not to me.

Mike


Whadda concept!! :D And if you wanted to cover your legal backside, have each employee sign for having received one. About the missing guards though .............

[Kirk Simmons]

I own a SS PCS 3HP. I could care less about Glass, legal debates, whatever.

I bought it in 2007 (I think, it's been a while), and for me the comparison at the time was the SS vs a Delta Uni. At that time the price differential was ~$250, and for $250 the flesh sensing technology won my money. The saw is amazingly well constructed and has served me well. I'll note I have no idea how the stock fence is, I bought mine without one and transferred the 8' Incra TS/LS from my previous saw.

[Joe Bradshaw]

Interesting discussion. For a long time I, was in the hate SS camp because of the bullying tactics that Glass used; until I ran my finger across he blade. My SO told me to get rid of the Uni-saw and replace it with the Sawstop. The fit and finish on the SS is quite good, but I am always worried about firing the cartridge pre-maturely. I still don't like steve glass and his methods, but, I am comfortable with my SS.
Joe

[Mike Henderson]

Interesting discussion. For a long time I, was in the hate SS camp because of the bullying tactics that Glass used; until I ran my finger across he blade. My SO told me to get rid of the Uni-saw and replace it with the Sawstop. The fit and finish on the SS is quite good, but I am always worried about firing the cartridge pre-maturely. I still don't like steve glass and his methods, but, I am comfortable with my SS.
Joe

I hope your injury wasn't bad, Joe, and you healed quickly and fully. No matter how experienced you are, people make mistakes.

Mike

[Jim Dwight]

I will be surprised if Bosch licenses technology from Gass. I think they will either litigate and see if they can win, buy Gass's patents outright, or just leave the U. S. market to Gass and set themselves as the patent holder in other markets thereby limiting him to the U. S. (if they haven't already). They can afford to leave the U. S. market to Gass if that's their highest profit move. I really doubt it's emotional for them other than possibly a dislike for Gass and his tactics. Bosch's product line only overlaps SS at the bottom of SS's line and essentially the top of Bosch's. Bosch competes with Festool more than SS.

[Ronald Blue]

I suspect that regardless of how this patent infringement fight turns out that Bosch entered this for the long haul and their deep pockets will prevail in the end. They may well be seeing a potentially huge market and not just table saws. I also think that they are probably already working with the other saw manufacturers on getting saws ready to bring to market with their system. Gass at best will delay this a few years and if he loses will probably be buried. The Bosch technology could be adapted to large blade commercial saws with out a great deal of trouble as well. While maybe not practical there method of stopping the blade could be adapted to other machines. Instead of clamping the blade it could be a disc just as in a disc brake system. Coincidentally they are a key player in anti-lock brake systems as well. Both automotive and large truck. They have made a great deal of money over the years by supplying their technology to other manufacturers or issuing licenses for them to use it. Unless your vehicle(s) are pre 1980 then you almost certainly have at least a small part of their technology in use.

[William C Rogers]

Initial ruling was Bosch imposed on the SawStop patent. If so I hope they lose. Just because they have "deep" pockets they should not be allowed to copy an idea and not pay for it. Many resent the fact that Gass tried to make his technology mandatory on every saw, thus eliminating a choice. To me the PTI did the exact same thing saying that I didn't need and couldn't have this technology also eliminating my choice. Today I have a choice because Gass surprised the PTI by starting SawStop. I did buy the SawStop because I was able to choose if I wanted the technology or a lousy blade guard the PTI says is all I need.

[James Raubenheimer]

Not sure Bosch has misfired at all. .....

In any event I think the Reaxx was strategically introduced to bleed SS of resources ahead of the original patents ending.

Though I agree with your sentiments I can't accept your view that Bosch has taken a hostile stance against SS. This legal matter is merely a defence against Gass's characteristic litigious hostility.

Bosch is a massive corporation which registers thousands of patents and which controls a massive market for the products it develops and produces. Sawstop is no threat to them.

Bosch will respect the court's decision despite their view that they have introduced their own technology to the market without infringement.

Sawstop is more likely to suffer harm for their effort spent trying to deprive the consumer the benefit of choice.

On the other hand the simple fact that Bosch will move on is itself a mortal threat to SS who cannot present a credible threat to the massive company which is Bosch, at least not for a very very long time.

[Jim Dwight]

I wouldn't presume that this is over. All that has happened is that SawStop got a ruling in its favor. That can be appealed and appealed again to the Supreme Court. Bosch could decide to quit but patent cases often take many years and millions of dollars to resolve. Bosch certainly has the resources to take it to the conclusion. If Bosch appeals and SS continues, their costs will increase. I don't think Gass can fight Bosch on his own. If he does, I think he will loose. Bosch will hire a firm with much more resources and more experience. It is clear that Gass thinks a lot of himself. I hope he does decide to fight Bosch without help. I think they will overwhelm him.

Unfortunately our legal system rewards those with more resources. They hire better lawyers that make more persuasive arguments. Gass won one round, not the war.

[mreza Salav]

A guy comes with a new innovative product, all the big companies dismiss him (for whatever reasons, high price, high risk, greed on either side, etc). He puts a lot of effort to make this product from ground up and brings it to market. He does provide excellent product, excellent service (better than all those big boys). He does lobby (which is completely legal even if you think it is illegal or nasty). All the big corporation do it behind the scene. A big company comes and steals the idea (at least the current ruling indicates it). Then some root for the big company to win (even though they have broken the law, at least so far the ruling says).
If it wasn't for Gass we wouldn't have this product on the market and probably the bigger companies would still pump out the 100 year old technology. I am supportive of innovation and people who do it and would like to see protection of rights of them especially against big corporation.

[Michael Pyron]

Initial ruling was Bosch imposed on the SawStop patent. If so I hope they lose. Just because they have "deep" pockets they should not be allowed to copy an idea and not pay for it. Many resent the fact that Gass tried to make his technology mandatory on every saw, thus eliminating a choice. To me the PTI did the exact same thing saying that I didn't need and couldn't have this technology also eliminating my choice. Today I have a choice because Gass surprised the PTI by starting SawStop. I did buy the SawStop because I was able to choose if I wanted the technology or a lousy blade guard the PTI says is all I need.

and herein lies the crux of the issue...an idea is NOT patentable...

look, I admit to ignorance in the following statements as I've not read the judge's full ruling and justification...

I really don't think Bosch would waste the time to develop a product that infringes upon SS patents.

as has been noted already in this thread, the technology of skin sensing was not developed by SS

that logically leads to the conclusion that the idea of stopping a power tool by sensing proximity of flesh is NOT patentable...what would be patentable is just how the machine is shut down...again, an idea is NOT patentable, though of course the method as to how it is accomplished is...that being qualified (I'm just a 30 yr. veteran of in the fields trades word, NOT an attorney trained in obfuscation) it seems simple to me that the stopping and retraction of a blade is not patentable and that leaves the methodology of how it is done as being what the argument is about. a bit of study into the history of patents indicates that plenty of patents have been accepted and yet later overturned when analysis was done on just what was being patented, and I'm mentioning this because it wouldn't surprise me at all if SS patents were really not valid in the first place.

from what I read of the history of the development of SS technology one thing sticks out as giving me a very negative view of Gass: his trying to make existing companies use his product...that in of itself taints my view of that person.

if 'history' (and yeah, I'm quite well aware of how it is being constantly rewritten and blurred) proves me wrong and Gass is proven to be in the right, then so be it...as of this writing I'll stick by my impression that the patent lawyer Gass is just blowing gas and smelling up the whole room.

[mreza Salav]

and herein lies the crux of the issue...an idea is NOT patentable...

look, I admit to ignorance in the following statements as I've not read the judge's full ruling and justification...

I really don't think Bosch would waste the time to develop a product that infringes upon SS patents.

as has been noted already in this thread, the technology of skin sensing was not developed by SS

that logically leads to the conclusion that the idea of stopping a power tool by sensing proximity of flesh is NOT patentable...


Absolutely it is patentable. Almost any product you pick has components that are available out there and have been used in different products.
If you put "known" things together in a new and innovative way to achieve something that was not done before it is patentable. The combination of those "known" things makes a new idea/product.

[Mike Henderson]

I would think the essence of a patent is that someone has a new idea. But I believe it's not the idea that is patentable but how the idea is implemented. I hold a number of patents relating to communications. And when you look at how communications is done - for example, how you put bits into a radio to transmit them and then extract them with minimal errors at the other end - it's all ideas that are expressed as mathematics. And I can absolutely assure you that those kind of patents hold up.

A lot of companies paid a lot of money in licensing fees to be able to use patents that applied to modems that we all used.

But, anyway, Gass is a patent attorney so I'm quite sure that he wrote those patents so that they'd stand up in court. Note that the founders of SawStop were all attorneys. And I think they were all patent attorneys. I expect those patents will stand up in court.

Mike

[Thomas Pender]

Today the U.S. International Trade Commission declined to review the decision of the ALJ who found Bosch had infringed Saw Stop Intellectual Property and who had recommended a limited exclusion order from importation into the U.S. be issued and enforced by the Customs folks. I do not believe the Bosch Saws have been sold for sale here - if so that could be an issue. Note that the original decision did not find the two braking actuators were equivalent - Bosch uses a pyrotechnic device and Saw Stop a spring. However, other claims were found to be infringed and the patents were found to be valid. If anyone wants, I will post the public decision, which is not short and has some redactions because of confidential business information. It was an interesting hearing and both parties were ably represented by law firms of impeccable reputation. The Commission will still review the public interest, etc,, and both parties still have the right to appeal the decision to the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, but for now, it stands.

[Mike Henderson]

Today the U.S. International Trade Commission declined to review the decision of the ALJ who found Bosch had infringed Saw Stop Intellectual Property and who had recommended a limited exclusion order from importation into the U.S. be issued and enforced by the Customs folks. I do not believe the Bosch Saws have been sold for sale here - if so that could be an issue. Note that the original decision did not find the two braking actuators were equivalent - Bosch uses a pyrotechnic device and Saw Stop a spring. However, other claims were found to be infringed and the patents were found to be valid. If anyone wants, I will post the public decision, which is not short and has some redactions because of confidential business information. It was an interesting hearing and both parties were ably represented by law firms of impeccable reputation. Both parties still have the right to appeal the decision to the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, but for now, it stands.

If you can post a link to it, I'd like to at least look at it.

Mike

[Brian Tymchak]

If you can post a link to it, I'd like to at least look at it.

Mike

+1. I would like to read that as well. Thanks!

[Art Mann]

It still isn't over. Bosch can and should appeal. The unique part of the Gass design is the inertial and spring activated stop mechanism, a technology which Bosch does not use.

[Mike Henderson]

It still isn't over. Bosch can and should appeal. The unique part of the Gass design is the inertial and spring activated stop mechanism, a technology which Bosch does not use.
If it was that simple, Art, you wouldn't see the outcome that we have. There's a lot to patents and a lot that can be claimed. A patent is divided into sections. One section "teaches" how to do the function and the Claims section specifies what is actually patented. The claims section is what is litigated.

Mike

[Thomas Pender]

The US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (the only circuit court that matters for patents) has (in what amounts to a one word order) affirmed the ITC's decision to exclude the Bosch contractor's saw from import to the US since Bosch was found to be in violation of Section 337 based upon a finding that Bosch infringed various valid Saw Stop Patents. This probably ends it - unless Bosch can come up with a viable work around, which can be risky.

[mreza Salav]

Not surprising, at least to me.

[Mike Henderson]

Not surprising to me either. I suppose other saw makers will have to wait for the patents to expire or pay SawStop a patent license fee.

Mike

[Alex Tonin]

In researching this, I came across SS's statistic that "In the United States roughly 10 table saw finger amputations occur every day"

The way it's written makes me wonder if they're counting accidents or individual fingers...

[Simon MacGowen]

In researching this, I came across SS's statistic that "In the United States roughly 10 table saw finger amputations occur every day"

The way it's written makes me wonder if they're counting accidents or individual fingers...

Ir one goes by this, it is the no. of fingers: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/table-saw-sawstop-safety-finger-cut/

Simon

[Ray Newman]

S. MacGowen: thanks for posting that link. Interesting reading.