Holdfast not holding

[Blake M Williams]

I bought two holdfasts from Gramercy, 3/4 inch.

At first they held, as in first two times and then after the pieces would move. Tried different sized pieces small and large all move. Smack the holdfast in place with out holding anything though and it doesn't budge. I have read a lot of ways people have fixed this, and I'm sure it has been covered here, but I would like your opinions on mine before I started possibly messing up my bench.

My bench by the way is made out of laminated 2x4s. I made the top and then took my jack plane to it until both sides were nice and flat. Drilled a couple of 3/4 holes, tested hat they held and then drilled a few more holes and now I'm stuck with a bunch of holes! Oh, and I use two holdfasts per work piece, still moves. Hit piece with chisel and it completely loosens.

So what do you guys think? leather? hardwood sleeves? add more depth to hole, take some depth away? make holes bigger?

[David Eisenhauer]

Try adding some "roughness" to the sides of the holdfasts (part that is driven through the 3/4" hole) by either filing the vertical part with a rough file or hammering in some dimples with a center punch or something similar. Also, adding in (suede?) leather to the face of the holdfast has to help some as in the same use for vice faces.

[Kees Heiden]

How thick is your bench? Mine is 4" and I needed to counterbore the holes from the underside, so the holes are only 3" deep. That cured the non stickyness of my holdfasts.

[Prashun Patel]

I have the Gramercy Holdfasts and had the same issue. As soon as I roughed them with 80 grit, they held fine. In fact, now I find that they work better with my holes that were not so precisely 3/4" but just a tad larger. They release easier.

I was amazed how much a difference this made.

[Stephen Clement]

Sam problem. I did the same as Prashun, except 60 grit, and it is usually fine. Make sure you rough around the shaft, not along the shaft. Sometimes I still get slips, but not much. It used to still slip a lot with a doe's foot, but I added sticky back sandpaper to the bottom of the doe's foot and that solved it.

[Blake M Williams]

How thick is your bench Prashun?

Mine is 3 1/8 inch thick. I will try to rough up the holdfasts when I get home and see what difference that makes. They are not a tight fit, but would larger than 3/4 hole be better?

[Blake M Williams]

I really wish I hadn't drilled a few more holes. I thought I was good at first, what a bummer.

[Mike Brady]

I had those those and they never worked in my bench, regardless of what I did. The guy that bought them says they work fine in his. There have been many complaints about these holdfasts over the years and also many satisfied users. That is not a very good record. I don't know what the company's policy is regarding their products, but you should return them in original condition if they will refund your purchase. I recommend cast or forged holdfasts. The Lee Valley holdfasts with mechanical or screw levers work extremely well. That is what I use 90% of the time because they never fail.

[Frank Martin]

I had those those and they never worked in my bench, regardless of what I did. The guy that bought them says they work fine in his. There have been many complaints about these holdfasts over the years and also many satisfied users. That is not a very good record. I don't know what the company's policy is regarding their products, but you should return them in original condition if they will refund your purchase. I recommend cast or forged holdfasts. The Lee Valley holdfasts with mechanical or screw levers work extremely well. That is what I use 90% of the time because they never fail.

I never used anything other than Lee Valley hold downs and they have been flawless for me. Their shaft is ribbed, which may be one of the reasons for its performance.

[Prashun Patel]

My newer 3/4" holes are a rather tight fit. Most are a tad looser not by design - but because my drilling was probably not precise.

I wouldn't worry about it. Rub your shaft wish sandpaper (OUCH!!!) and see how you fare.

My bench is 2" thick.

[Nick Stokes]

Try roughing up the shafts that will help. Then also counterbore the hole under your bench by a half inch or so.

They are great holdfasts. Don't worry about the extra holes, you'll use em.

I accidentally waxed the holdfasts once because I noticed rust... bad idea, they didn't work for awhile.

But now they're perfect.

[Stewie Simpson]

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/251/Some%20Tips%20on%20Using%20Our%20Gramercy%20Holdfa sts

[Tom Paulley]

Blake, I recently purchased two Grammercy holdfasts for my Roubo bench, and I couldn't make them work at all. Like some of the other contributors, I roughed up the surface with sandpaper, going around the shaft and learned that you have to hit them reasonably hard. It's not a light tap, but a pretty good whack and they will hold like crazy. Give this a try before giving up on them.

[Joel Moskowitz]

. I don't know what the company's policy is regarding their products, but you should return them in original condition if they will refund your purchase.

The return policy is simple. We take everything back in any condition except abused (except festool power tools) for six months AND we pay return shipping.

Of the thousands of holdfasts we have sold over the years we have gotten less than 10 back. As it suggests on our website when you first get them, as it says in this thread too, go round and round the shafts with coarse sandpaper. Sometimes counterboring from the bottom of a very thick bench helps too. But its pretty rare for them not to work well. But Yes, if you don't want them we are happy to take them back.

Joel

[Stewie Simpson]

Its interesting to compare the difference in shaping between the Gramercy and the Lie Nielson Holdfasts.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/static-file-transform/1228/thumbnail%2Cw_500%2Ch_500%2Cm_a.jpg

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/ms/big/MS-HOLDFAST_B_big.jpg

[Kesh Ikuma]

Sorry to sidetrack a bit, but what do you all do against holdfast rusting? Mine has been getting rust pretty bad. I was just about to wax'em up till I saw Nick's post here.

I, too, had to roughen up the shafts to make them work initially on my 4" benchtop to grip (agree on needing to whack hard, too). Had no idea I was about to revert to where I started by waxing :o

[Rob Luter]

I have a couple Gramercy Holdfasts. I have a thick (3 1/2") maple bench and had issues initially getting them to hold. I hit them with some coarse sandpaper in a radial pattern around the shaft and they work great now. When in doubt, hit them harder.

I glued a small leather pad to the clamping surface of both holdfasts. That seemed to help and does a good job of eliminating any marring too.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello all,

I've had the gramercy's for 6+ years and use them in a 4" thick hard maple top. I've had no trouble, except when I oiled them to prevent a bit of rust. roughed with sandpaper and back to no issues. I'd recommend oiling the pad and 'goose neck', but leaving the straight shaft clean--a bit of rust will give more sticking power, right? (i'm also in a dry environment where rust is not an issue).

Best,
C

[Kesh Ikuma]

Hello all,
a bit of rust will give more sticking power, right? (i'm also in a dry environment where rust is not an issue).


I like this way of thinking :-)

Although Louisiana humidity (we were in tears of joy as the humidity level lowering to "humid" level from "oppressive" just a couple weeks ago) won't stop rusting at "a bit" level... haha

[Christopher Charles]

Ah, yes, I grew up on the Gulf Coast and my recommendation does not hold there! Not for long anyhow...

[Joe A Faulkner]

I'm another Gramercy hold fast user with a 3 3/38" thick maple top who had similar problems to what you describe here. I used 100 grit paper to add just a bit of "grab" to hold fast and they work fine now. I too glued a bit of leather to the gripping face of the hold fast more to pad the material being held than anything else. Don't despair over the holes. Roughen up the hold fasts with sand paper. It will work.

[Warren Mickley]

I think a holdfast should have flexibility in the arm. The Gramercy holdfasts look much too stiff for me; I think that affects their holding ability. Roubo shows a holdfast with a longer arm (9 or 10 inches), and the whole arm is tapered all the way down to two lines (1/6 inch) at the end. Roubo says it should be flexible, "plus elastiques". He also shows the holdfast going through the 5 or 6 inch bench top without any "counterbore", just a straight hole.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Gramercy Holdfasts are made of bent steel. As a result they have a lot more flexibility than any of the cast holdfasts on the market - any - high or low end. We actually made and tested more flexible and less flexible holdfasts. What we have is a good compromise that works on most benches. You do have to rough them up which also gets the grease off.

Holdfasts are basically a spring. A stiff spring holds with more force, a more flexible spring holds with less force but is easier to conform to a space. I think Chris Schwarz said it best when he did his holdfast article years ago. paraphrasing - there is a certain amount of magic involved. It depends on bench size, hole size, arm extension, and the particular combination of these factors on your work.

If you want your holdfast to go all the way through your 5"-6" bench without any counterbore just drill them bigger - easy peasy - but the tradeoff is that all modern bench accessories use a 3/4" hole. So by counterboring instead of drilling larger you get to use all those wonderful accessories from all the great modern suppliers we have today.

[Warren Mickley]

I do acknowledge that cast holdfasts ought to be even more rigid than fat ones. And I do admit that being a professional woodworker I had no idea that there was a line of gadgets and gizmos to compete for holes in a bench top. However, having used a flexible holdfast since 1978, I think that a traditional holdfast would not present the problems enumerated in this thread. And I think that you would agree that a holdfast with a tapered arm would be more flexible than a thick (up to four times Roubo's "deux lignes") arm.

Here is Felibien's tapered holdfast from 1676:
344079

[Joel Moskowitz]

I do acknowledge that cast holdfasts ought to be even more rigid than fat ones. And I do admit that being a professional woodworker I had no idea that there was a line of gadgets and gizmos to compete for holes in a bench top. However, having used a flexible holdfast since 1978, I think that a traditional holdfast would not present the problems enumerated in this thread. And I think that you would agree that a holdfast with a tapered arm would be more flexible than a thick (up to four times Roubo's "deux lignes") arm.

Here is Felibien's tapered holdfast from 1676:
344079

I dont agree that traditional holdfasts would not present the same issues. It depends on the workbench and a host of other issues. As far as I know our holdfasts are the only production holdfast made of bent steel. We have a patent on it. Yours, and all the ones in Roubo are hot forged wrought iron and would behave completely differently. By the same token Cast hodfasts, even ones in the Roubo shape work differently than wrought ones.

Wrought iron holdfasts would be worked hot and be pretty soft. If you look at roubo the holdfasts used in timberframing were huge, I think that the spring tension of a wrought iron holdfast vs the same sized cold forged steel holdfast is less. Remember of course that forged holdfasts, hot or cold, were never offered by any tool manufacturer, they were locally made to order. But and this the most important thing, it doesn't matter. OF the thousands of holdfasts we have sold, more than any other non-cast design ever, the overwhelming majority work as long as you follow the instructions, go round and round the stems with coarse sandpaper to get rid of any oil and also give the holdfast some tooth they will most probably work great, at a fraction of the cost of hand forged holdfasts, or the better cast holdfasts. But of course some benches will have more issues than others. Testing has shown that there is no specific geometry that works in every case no matter what.

[Blake M Williams]

Ok, I used some 60 grit sandpaper on them yesterday. Worked much better, but even using two the piece would still move when chiseling for a dovetail. This normal? Something I need to live with? I sanded a little longer and they worked a little better. What about some deeper scratches using a file?

[Prashun Patel]

How are you using it during dovetailing? If you're using it to hold a stop in place while you are mortising your pin board horizontally, I too have a little difficulty getting to remain solid. I use two in this case.

But if you are just holding your tail or pin board down with the holdfast while paring the walls, that shouldn't require any force at all; I don't even use a holdfast for this.


I don't think you need to use a file.

1) I suspect you just need to strike it a little harder. They do require a stronger smack than I originally anticipated. What are you using to strike it with? I use a mortising mallet.

2) If that doesn't work, I suspect you may need to alter the geometry at the bottom of the holes. But I'd call Gramercy if 1) doesn't work.


Call Gramercy.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Ok, I used some 60 grit sandpaper on them yesterday. Worked much better, but even using two the piece would still move when chiseling for a dovetail. This normal? Something I need to live with? I sanded a little longer and they worked a little better. What about some deeper scratches using a file?

Holdfasts have no lateral holding power - none of them (although leather pads help). THey are all brilliant at keeping your work from lifting up but depending on how you are chiseling the work can slide under the holdfast. The traditional way of stopping this is using some sort of stop. For chiseling dovetail waste I would use a benchstop to keep everything in place and one holdfast to hold the setup from bouncing around

[Derek Cohen]

I bought two holdfasts from Gramercy, 3/4 inch.

At first they held, as in first two times and then after the pieces would move. Tried different sized pieces small and large all move. Smack the holdfast in place with out holding anything though and it doesn't budge. I have read a lot of ways people have fixed this, and I'm sure it has been covered here, but I would like your opinions on mine before I started possibly messing up my bench.

My bench by the way is made out of laminated 2x4s. I made the top and then took my jack plane to it until both sides were nice and flat. Drilled a couple of 3/4 holes, tested hat they held and then drilled a few more holes and now I'm stuck with a bunch of holes! Oh, and I use two holdfasts per work piece, still moves. Hit piece with chisel and it completely loosens.

So what do you guys think? leather? hardwood sleeves? add more depth to hole, take some depth away? make holes bigger?

Hi Blake

I am assuming that your bench is 4" thick - yes?

I use the Gramercy holdfasts. My bench top is 3 1/2" thick European Oak. The holdfasts hold fast (sorry :) ). They have never disappointed. In fact, they require a sharp rap to loosen.

I wonder whether your bench top is too thick for the Gramercy? I recall that 3 1/2", or there abouts, was the limit. If so, you could drill out the underside by 1", which would effectively reduce the thickness. Try this on one of the holes and see if it makes a difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Nick Stokes]

If the workpiece is big enough, you can use the shaft of the holdfast as a stop. Chisel the waste, and pare towards the shaft and you're in business.

Black, what you are describing now is exactly how holdfasts are designed to work. You have one of the best holdfasts made, no worries there.

On the rust issue, after my one mistake, I just wax/oil the parts that I handle... I keep it off of the shaft, which doesn't rust anyway because I don't touch that part.

[Blake M Williams]

My bench is a tad thicker than 3 inch. I will sand a little bit more tonight, or just take a file to it. I didn't think of a bench stop, I did buy some 3/4 dowel for making a few dogs, I'll make either the stop or dogs tonight and test them out with the holdfasts. I'm still new to doing all this with just hand tools. Thanks a lot for all of your suggestions, would you guys recommend leather in my vise also? I added wood faces to it and the slightest tap makes the work piece move, I really hate tightening down to much, leaves a slight indention.

[David Eisenhauer]

A very have definite yes to leather on the vice faces in my experience. Made a world of diffence for me. Look up a You Tube or something video/discussion on adding a random pattern of centerpunched dimples to the shaft of the holdfast for another possible solution to the holdfast issue. I use Grammercy holdfasts and I do have to slap them very sharply when fixing them in place. May take a second slap sometimes. Leather glued to the holding face of the holdfast works also. As Joel said, they are not going to necessarily hold against a "twisting" force, but should hold on a "down" force.

[Jim Koepke]

My bench is a tad thicker than 3 inch. I will sand a little bit more tonight, or just take a file to it. I didn't think of a bench stop, I did buy some 3/4 dowel for making a few dogs, I'll make either the stop or dogs tonight and test them out with the holdfasts. I'm still new to doing all this with just hand tools. Thanks a lot for all of your suggestions, would you guys recommend leather in my vise also? I added wood faces to it and the slightest tap makes the work piece move, I really hate tightening down to much, leaves a slight indention.

For the vise faces you may also consider cork. Cork is available in sheets with adhesive backing very inexpensively at many art stores, kitchen supply and home improvement stores.

jtk

[Sergey Petrov]

It is interesting that everyone who oiled or waxed their holdfasts struggled to get them to grip. Are new holdfasts not oiled from factory? Once the oil is removed/sanded off, they work. If anyone has new ones, try degreasing them with some carb cleaner. Same with bench holes. Give them a wipe with acetone.

[Blake M Williams]

Ok, so 60 grit made it hold better. Yesterday I took more sandpaper to it and attacked it with a file, holds great now. Thx for all the feedback.

[Anuj Prateek]

I have the Gramercy Holdfasts and had the same issue. As soon as I roughed them with 80 grit, they held fine. In fact, now I find that they work better with my holes that were not so precisely 3/4" but just a tad larger. They release easier.

I was amazed how much a difference this made.

Excuse the reply to old post.

My holdfasts stopped working completely few months back. Even when new I had to whack them hard with lump hammer. And, they did not work in all but few holes.

Found this thread, used 80 grit sandpaper and went over the shaft (round and round).

Now they work super nice. They are holding by hand pressure and need light hammer tap to disengage.

Thank you!

[Jeff Ranck]

Sorry to sidetrack a bit, but what do you all do against holdfast rusting? [...]

Nothing. The rust helps them hold better.