MINIMAX FS-35: Planer Speed

[John TenEyck]

Anyone know if the planer speed can be reduced w/o major rebuild? The stock speed is about 30 fpm, and my nearly 4 hp machine bogs down if I try to take off more than about 1/32". This seems rediculous to me. If I could cut the speed in half cut quality would improve and I'd be able to take off more wood per pass when I want to. Thanks for any info. you may have.

John

[Frank Martin]

You probably have a different root cause. Dull blades perhaps, or some really hard wood, or some other mechanical issue? I have a 12-inch Minimax combo and never had the planer bog down with around 1/16" depth. Have not tried more, but I am sure your machine is rated for a lot more than 1/32" depth of cut.

[mreza Salav]

Something doesn't seem right. My 14" machine has a 4.8HP motor and I except once which I accidentally tried to take about 3/16-1/4" off a wide maple board haven't noticed bogging down. How are your blades? Is the motor connection all good? have you tried to check the amp draw of the motor under load?

[John TenEyck]

The blades are sharp. The amp draw is around 18-19 amps under load. Seriously, I can't take off more than 1/32" on nearly any 12" board regardless of species.

John

[Erik Loza]

John, Tersa head or regular?

Erik

[John TenEyck]

Regular head with straight knives.

John

[Warren Lake]

some thing wrong, invincible 3 hp have taken 1/8 off though normally would not,. YOu have a good point though about changing feed speed, these machines would be better if you could have a gear drive motor and dial in your speed like my little moulding machine. it runs birdseye fine, the SCM im trying to hold the boards to slow them down realize the trans will ahve to come apart and figure out a way to adapt a gear feed motor to do that. cutter head stays the same feed rate what you want.

what wood and how wide?

[John TenEyck]

As I said above, any species 12" wide will bring the machine to a near halt if I try to take off much more than 1/32". As far as I can tell, the motor is fine as it draws the number of amps it should and is consistent with what's on the motor plate - 18.6 IIRC.

The knives are sharp, both when I got it and since I sharpened them after I knocked them on a hidden nail.

If something is wrong I think it has more to do with the design than with the machine itself. 3.8 HP, or there abouts, is just not enough grunt to take off much wood at 30 fpm. Cutting the speed in half would go a long way towards getting the machine in a better operating range. I think newer models have lower feed speeds, and maybe more HP, too. They did that for a reason.

John

[Rich Riddle]

John,

I have a very old Minimax FS35 and don't have the problems you describe in the least. It routinely takes off more than 1/16" from wide hardwood boards. It sounds like your machine might be the problem and not the design. Here is the old girl.

343950

[Warren Lake]

sorry had looked back to the first post about width. I think any machine is going to slow a bit how much I dont know. My general 14" would have on 3 HP and the SCM would as well but not as much and im talking minimal so much so never bothered to really note it, an RPM gauge would tell mere. Are any pulleys changed or all stock. Next the motor gurus might say if its possible for a motor to lose power in time, dont think ive ever seen that or even a motor burn out on my stuff switches many. anyone know of a decent quality RPM gauge? is there some sort of counter weight thing guess im just wondering if anything was changed.

[mreza Salav]

Did you get the machine used and was it ever modified? How many knives is the cutter head?
If you open the back of the machine you see the power system between the cutter head and the infeed rollers. You might be able to change a few sprockets to reduce the rollers speed. Incidentally I once wanted to change the chain on mine and it was a very odd size that I couldn't find in any supplier here.

[John TenEyck]

Mine looks a lot like yours, Rich. Early 80's I think. I bought it last year from the original and only owner who hardly used it. It looked nearly new. He apparently had some trouble with the original starting module on it because what was on it wasn't OE. Turns out it wasn't right, either, as it kept tripping out whenever I put much load on it. Close inspection showed he had a 10-16 amp AEG starting module on it, which he bought through SCMI, which was a real surprise because the motor plate says it draws 18.6 amps which I have confirmed is true. I bought a 16-20 amp AEG relay for it and the motor now runs w/o tripping out.

If something is wrong with it I have no clue what it is - and I'm all ears as to what it might be.

I have it wired to a 10 gage, 30 amp dedicated circuit, that I used to run a 5HP planer on, so it's not being starved for power.

John

[Erik Loza]

John, have you waxed the planer bed recently?

Erik

[David Kumm]

Since you likely need to remove the motor to swap pulleys, I'd take it to a shop and have it checked. 20-25 years is about the life of a metric motor used in some woodworking machines so it could have an issue that only shows up when under heavy load. I had a planer that had the motor rewound to 440 but was sold as 220 and the motor plate confirmed it. Drove me crazy because it bogged down under load. I doubt that is your problem but it sounds like there could be a motor issue. Dave

[John TenEyck]

As far as I can tell it's all stock and I'M pretty sure the cutter head is turning the correct rpm. The motor is definitely the original.

I have waxed the planer bed.

New machines have a 4.8 HP motor even on the 12" wide model and run down to 23 fpm with a 1/8" max cut. MM made that change for some reason.

John

[John Lanciani]

Grasping at straws, what is the knife projection from the head? Too little projection and the head could be riding on the stock in front of the cut causing a ton of friction.

[John TenEyck]

I have and used the factory knife setting jig to set the knives. Any more projection and they would hit the jointer bed lips.

Changing planer speed would not involve resheaving the motor. It would require a change to the driven friction pulley or some other gearing. In any case, if the motor is drawing the correct amps why would it be bad?

John

[Erik Loza]

Thinking out loud: Any chance it has a 50Hz motor?

Erik

[David Kumm]

John, motors can be weird. At what load ( 1/32" ? )is the motor pulling FLA and what is it pulling when under no load? I've spent a lot of extra time figuring out electrical problems because the thing I assumed was OK wasn't. Dave

[John TenEyck]

I don't think so, but I'm not home right now so I can't say with certainty.

[John TenEyck]

If you all are confident that it should be able to handle at least a 1/16" bite then a motor problem makes the most sense to me. I'll have to check the amp draws again when I get back home, no load, etc. That will later this week. Thanks for all your help so far.

The root of this is that I'd like to put a Byrd head on this J/P. People tell me they draw more power than straight knives. If so, I'll have an unusable machine unless we can sort out this problem.

John

[Dan Friedrichs]

Maybe get a cheap laser tachometer and confirm that the motor and cutterhead are spinning at the right speed.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

The root of this is that I'd like to put a Byrd head on this J/P. People tell me they draw more power than straight knives. If so, I'll have an unusable machine unless we can sort out this problem.

After switching to the byrd, my drive chain broke on the first run. Lots more load.

[Sebastien La Madeleine]

I would check the running capacitor. Lack of torque would be first indication. Has it been checked? (I'm assuming the machine is single phase)

[John TenEyck]

No, I haven't checked the run capacitor. Yes, it'S single phase.

Guess I will learn how to do that.

John

[Rich Riddle]

John,

Wish you were closer so you could take a look at mine. I did place a Byrd head on the Minimax and like the way it works for the most part. You get "scallops" when you use a segmented cutter head, so sanding is essential. If you ever get near the Cincinnati area, let me know so you can take a look at the one in the shop.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for the offer Rich. If I happen to go out your way, I'll look you up no matter how this turns out.

Every planer makes scallops; nature of a rotating cutter taking a bite. That's what my drum sander is for.

John

[Erik Loza]

What happens if you completely remove the knives from the head, then feed a board through? In other words, just let the feed rollers pull it though.

Erik

[mreza Salav]

Here is something to check: the mechanism that engages the rollers is a wheel with some form of urethane on the outer. Is there a chance that the rollers actually stop feeding the board when there is more resistance from the cutter? If so, maybe the wheel that transmit power to the rollers "slips" (too old?) and hence the board moves slower....

[Erik Loza]

Here is something to check: the mechanism that engages the rollers is a wheel with some form of urethane on the outer. Is there a chance that the rollers actually stop feeding the board when there is more resistance from the cutter? If so, maybe the wheel that transmit power to the rollers "slips" (too old?) and hence the board moves slower....

That's a thought, too: If the drive wheel is glazed. The current ones are urethane but pretty sure I've seen older ones where the drive wheel is rubber, not unlike a Steff power feeder wheel. If that's the case, those things glaze like crazy.

In any even, I doubt the motor is the issue. I've got a ton of guys with older J/P's and this is not really a complaint I hear about. Just need to figure out what part is the culprit.

Erik

[David Kumm]

I had thought the head was slowing under load but if it is only the feed slowing- or not gripping- I agree it is not a motor issue. There should be change in amp draw from no load to load and you should be able to see if the rollers are continuing to turn if the board slows. That would imply a roller issue. A motor slowing can be heard. Dave

[Mike Hollingsworth]

344034
titan prcf60a
$25 on eBay
$45 Grainger
Nice to have an extra

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for the additional ideas, everyone. I don't think it is a roller drive issue. I don't see any evidence of that, nor any glazing on the friction wheel. I'M telling you, this machine looked nearly new when I got it even though it was purchased in the '80's. Besides, it's the motor bogging down. If the roller drive was slipping there would be less draw on the motor.

John

[John TenEyck]

OK, a quick update. After I got home today I took the motor out of the machine, which is not the easiest task by itself. It's a 1 phase, 60 hz, 3500 (or maybe 3600, I can't remember for sure which) rpm motor that is rated at 220/230V, 16.8 amps. There's another field that says CAV and the value is 3; I have no clue what that means. Bear in mind this is an Italian motor. There is a capacitor on the outside, which is linked by a wire from one of the two lugs to another, plastic cylinder of about the same size with no writing on it. Another wire from that cylinder goes back to the the motor wiring box. I popped the capacitor out of its cradle, and took the end off. I put a screwdriver shank across the terminals and then checked it with a DVM, set at 2K ohms. I got readings of about 1.8 - 1.9 consistently, and they stayed there, they didn't go back to infinity.

Bad capacitor? And what's the other cylinder that's connected to it? I can't get it off the motor or otherwise access it w/o breaking the plastic bands around it so I'd rather not do that unless necessary.

Or should I just take it to a motor shop?

Thanks.

John

[Dan Friedrichs]

Pics would help, but it sounds like the other cylinder is also just a capacitor - pretty common for a motor to have a "run" cap and a "start" cap.

If your DMM was showing ~2kohm and not going up, that would indicate a bad cap. As you note, measuring a cap with a DMM usually results in the measurement creeping up to infinity - the meter uses a small current to measure resistance, and that current charges the cap and eventually decays to zero (resulting in reading an open circuit). While caps have some parasitic resistance, it's usually VERY big - much bigger than 2kohm.

[John TenEyck]

Just to be clear, I was getting readings of 1.8- 1.9 on the 2000 ohm setting, meaning almost nothing.

John

[Frank Martin]

This would do it. Hope your machine shows its true colors once you replace the capacitor.

[John TenEyck]

OK, here are pictures:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5aSV0_LKnQArDVI8c5OC1TrlwhcRBgYyQrlwQI4ZIsHUAJWVN4 vI0ISpS1ZsqIXIEonSOxoPQnILb0LWT9sxte2fYMwGiBryNsb2 OJYumt6fk24zbtjptYE_HmkTGF_gMDEBjxhdk0A6LfM56ufzmg 3Onv8oujE6eluWFnIU4-2mxjk2-YLfKXeWuzIgqfieX_TWJDi4OK4WbTkQNf8poZYQs2ZNd4lQkv1 fMTuZeQCPELwavCF3o4pij0dW2040eVGzIlqMGTPSe1BytkOWX czmjQCntKG4qdu_REso67Qv5YMWJF93o6nZyzLAwAyrnDAfwAC 5FBKbndAIa9rSvmIhMXUz6vMypdRbMPepDQ275DbPDHojd-5fv0RNipd-3yUfNUAbj1ZBL3stLd7mpCJ994ni1ilMLSQ92dTLuZOCI4GZVw 6B4XAVQ-vJp5zhM-dN-fjuCp1NRrZZUeEVZ61dpsjFTQLYw1BjX7iCfONlPAm6Ywdyx2Q jbTvAuC95DYP00VmY4p24v0SdoOMp1zzPgOBwxB_5w3-9H1pRE3UIRkg2k9kj825lDWbHQCbd4zE9TnYGqa5GpsKZDIBEX 1PdSkZvthCrV3HPQ8OhL3FsVAw_Xg=w640-h480-no

There is an obvious capacitor at the top, above the motor info plate. The cylinder at the bottom of the photo sure looks like a capacitor, but has no label. Here are some closeups:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1uETiWZHyAIV3KtclwTRJweVn7ko_Qi83UhVbkA3NbL_qvhx7U xH6C9DjFatz7JzBCn647mLcIXmyyzhqisIetJOQt3M5ezjDYQu LqzjxvRmOHDaFlBkhTqId3wwmv4tZ9Vkow6MCgM7KY16olzuHw JJ2v13xr3S8xUJimu2ybFjKRwHGItxYZJ8YzdjklUqpbJhELiF 6AacvvvLC4VuX8lMPRVHLBa7r1Ipjzh_oLucU4BkepBy7I8VNS tfvWN144MJAXGgxp85YpvkQ5aHS0DnCCQ0mGcIBFfEqyYoORhf terWiox9avibxNy1Q8F37fL3NBJ9QSs3mWYC8HcXyWE921I5Ss E0BCNDSlvqXN2KS-thfFsod56GNswEudyr8mHbTUsYZWUuIl7oxrET_stLlSPIzHq_ b8GiXxLREzDVAaUpbmBLCm8D1ByKnqaE7sqUYHvUhlFxbDuD_g FzEXVmYmeyj-LIbG-iUfzdX3zEvkLAX32Qb_cCC1AIFEl0AKBdd-ObUIOe0FF-7yjG6HAjdmU0dILncrRMzAthsVJobCq0aH9nC9a59kbUFM-OyY2qqm8dBHgDibaqP3s1rot0vco_JSmzRVkdkYiP6U5MhFYa3 Q=w640-h480-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ay2dS5XF-BmU7Sk3TXHbg5VnWHSe2QuEJRskrvSZIbVg7IBLLoaw2DgNfhm CDgfdhBMRhUFlVsc=w640-h480-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rUkCq8lIiFGXXtpQqNl6HOCsNx38BaWjiLE0elaudQppE2BtfF mEQ9U1SDUMTiI-Jorn4OPCe3bKVBzLHItyLlQUvK9QO0nRytkahlA_j6WLbhGVn4 WOmu8m0qN5b85fCUQVRZXAtvu5gbjlBQbqfivbHkvwYwNjFyhF D9_Ki8fTLkBTpFzZzPVMV5Q7XJl_2oBLhFQqLfN5NRyXJtOtV8 pVelLhZ4Roi2ilV0LiUDjlMRkuH_8sR5RcrSQ_XYuOXI6dG8eN X3_UrfhMaJSOrtc8_gVqvUlKkI299rufGHm2XTesRq391Qv-L-XOt1s0ByTCfJbehqoy1nVNZ2ZSj74Cvq4nZfOINnnEPH-JOuQ1bMo-kSG9U6gFO6SpLF8-LBe3wJcAlIlPagLqub2DwO58bxss7iNhFu-yKYDTDSOKdK3b4Y6vRQRcQzrMDKDR4RcR6GbCZ7TLSc5VMlYQX ERZx6sfkPLkrI-l_mWZdMMrW2av4qAr7D3VzoG_cARcERApki-0WD4v6WsD-1c_f2RWM8aqx2SLVTvcHcHGL0Byhr8rBcKUbUVTTQLYC9pfVHL 5TU8FNYcX4pLanVivubW-hTXhJunxBqi3s5_NUg9DsaDQ9g=w640-h480-no

The last photo shows the wiring at the capacitor. One of the wires from the other "capacitor" goes to one terminal of this capacitor; the other wire goes to the motor wiring box.

I can't get the second "capacitor" apart; it appears to be a sealed unit. Assuming it is a capacitor, which is the start and which is the run capacitor? If the second "capacitor" is the run capacitor, and it's bad, how would I know what to buy? SCMI may be able to help; I haven't contacted them yet. I was hoping someone here might know. Thanks.

John

[Mike Hollingsworth]

That's definitely not the original. Looks like the wrong voltage to me.

[mreza Salav]

That's definitely not the original. Looks like the wrong voltage to me.


+1........

[John TenEyck]

It looked that way to me, too. I would think the original(s) would have been of Italian descent, like the motor. I would think it should be a 220V unit, too, but maybe each capacitor handles only one 120V leg? I don't know. At this point, I think I need to take it to a motor shop or call SCMI. I can't find a diagram for the motor on-line, which might tell me what capacitor(s) are supposed to be on it.

John

[Erik Loza]

That's definitely not the original. Looks like the wrong voltage to me.

+2 ^^^^. Absolutely not the OEM capacitor. How funny, that's a first. I didn't realize you could run a 110V cap on a 230V motor.

John, I'm sure you know this but please be careful when discharging those capacitors.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

It looked that way to me, too. I would think the original(s) would have been of Italian descent, like the motor. I would think it should be a 220V unit, too, but maybe each capacitor handles only one 120V leg? I don't know. At this point, I think I need to take it to a motor shop or call SCMI. I can't find a diagram for the motor on-line, which might tell me what capacitor(s) are supposed to be on it.

John

If you call SCM, ask for Martin Ranta. He's the parts specialist most familiar with Minimax machinery. You already know the voltage and amperage. It's the micro-farads I'm unsure of. Martin ought to be able to tell you and also, supply the wiring schematic.

Erik

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Here's the one SCM sent me. I'd be happy to send it to you.
Voltage seems to have nothing to do with 110/220. It won't fit in the box that's supposed to be attached to your motor, so I got mine one from eBay that would (Titan). Works perfect.
I suggest checking at a wiring diagram. The wrong person has been working on your machine.
344275

[John TenEyck]

Here's the one SCM sent me. I'd be happy to send it to you.
Voltage seems to have nothing to do with 110/220. It won't fit in the box that's supposed to be attached to your motor, so I got mine one from eBay that would (Titan). Works perfect.
I suggest checking at a wiring diagram. The wrong person has been working on your machine.
344275

Mike, are you saying you only have the one capacitor on your motor? If so, is it the same motor type, exactly? If yes, do you have a wiring diagram? I can't find one on the net. If that one capacitor is all that's needed, I'll have to figure out how to deal with the wire that goes from the second capacitor to the motor wiring box.


John

[Mike Hollingsworth]

That's the run capacitor SCM sent me It's 70uf. The start capacitor was 60uf. You'll need both I think. I have no diagram. Erik?

[John TenEyck]

Just an update. I found nothing about the motor on the net. Not knowing really anything about capacitors I decided the best option was to take it to a motor shop, so this morning I dropped it off at one in Buffalo. I should know something in 3 to 5 days, once they get a look at it. Thanks for that photo of the run capacitor, Mike. I forwarded it to the motor shop, because there was no writing on the side of the one on my motor.

It now looks like this motor is only 3 HP. That seems pretty small to me on a 14" planer, especially one running at 30 fpm. Those of you who said your machine runs great - what size motor is on it?

John

[Mike Hollingsworth]

5HP Baldor would make that baby sing. about $350.

[Warren Lake]

invincible combo 575 3 phase 3 HP original motor runs great
invincible combo 220 3 phase 3 HP runs great original motor last owner original owner had it rewired to 220 phase to not need a transformer or it was not suggested to him

Machines are 13 3/4 approx cutting width,

General was 14" and had 220 3hp single phase on it and could have used more power at times, it was fine but for whatever reason these machines are stronger,

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Just to confirm, I checked the label on my MiniMax combo (same as FS30).
3520 RPM

[Erik Loza]

There still seems to be a big piece to this puzzle, missing, but I'm at a loss for the time being. I honestly cannot ever remember a complaint about motor power on any Minimax machines, regardless of vintage. It's basically unheard of.

Erik

[John TenEyck]

We will see how it works, Eric, after the motor comes back, and I'll be sure to let you and others know.

I just sold a Foley/Belsaw 12" planer/moulder that had a 5 HP Baldor motor on it. 5HP on a 12" machine! I thought about seeing if I could make it fit into the MiniMax instead of selling it. It would have been a challenge, to be sure, but I never would have had need to worry about adequate power.

Mike, what's the motor type on yours and what model is your machine? The motor on my FS-35 is a Fimec H90LM2DB.

I looked more closely at the planer drive, to see about slowing it down. About the only possible solution I came up with would be to turn down the diameter of the planer head shaft, where it contacts the friction pulley that drives the feed rollers. An easy solution, but not one I'm interested in pursuing just yet. If I upgrade to a Byrd head, I may try it with this head before I make the change - unless the motor surprises me after I get it back.

John

[Mike Hollingsworth]

In Italian:
344399

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Mike. You must have a newer machine as that's a 4.8 HP motor; it's certainly a different motor than on my early/mid '80's machine.

John

[John TenEyck]

I got a call from the motor shop today saying that the motor was all done and ready to pick up. I went and got it this afternoon. The run capacitor was indeed bad. They installed a new one (made in USA) with a rating of 35 microfarads. They also installed new shaft bearings and cleaned it out. The charge was $115, which I thought was fair. (I was getting so desperate to get the motor back I probably would have thought twice that amount was OK.) After Houdini like contortions to get the motor mounting bolts and nuts installed, the rest went smoothly. I hope that is the last time I ever have to take that motor out of the machine.

The good news is the machine runs great! I ran a piece of 8" wide white oak through it, taking off a 1/8" bite, and it didn't even flinch. I'm sure that makes you happy, Eric, nearly as much as me. I'm back in business.

While the motor was out for service I took some time to study how I might change the planer speed. Turns out it would be possible by moving the intermediate sprocket to a location where I could install a much larger sprocket on it. I would probably leave the current sprocket where it is and install a new set for the lower speed, giving myself two speed options. With the straight knife head now on the machine I won't be doing that, but if I decide to change to a Byrd head and the 3 HP motor is straining under the increased load, then I will revisit that option.

Thanks to everyone for your help in figuring out what the problem was with the motor.

John

[David Kumm]

A good motor guy and a machinist are invaluable when get into machinery. Dave

[Jim Becker]

'Glad you're back up and running, John!!!

[mreza Salav]

Good to hear that. Yes, mounting those motors are not easy. I have done mine a few times (have moved my machine 3 times) and know it.

[Frank Martin]

Great to hear your machine is now working as it should.

I know what you mean about the not so easy installation. I recently had to pull two motors out of my CU300 combo and it was not easy. Clearly a compromise that had to be made to fit a lot of functionality into a small footprint.

[Erik Loza]

Glad to hear a happy resolution, John!

Erik

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Kudos!!!!!!!