Ideal Laser Engraver?

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

Hi,

I have been roaming around the forums for a few weeks and reading up on laser specs and reviews, many thanks for all the information that as been posted.

I am a small sign maker, home based and I am in the market for a laser engraver and cutter. I have a couple of demo's booked with Epilog and Trotec but I am willing to consider the idea of a chinese laser (because of the cost savings). Part of my business already imports goods from Australia, Germany, Italy etc, so I am happy to consider an import. Space is very tight in my small workshop i can accommodate approx a 1200mm wide laser unit.

From what I have read, i believe I would be looking at an 80W laser to cover cutting and engraving 1/4" 6.35mm Oak, Acrylic, MDF, other woods etc.

EFR tubes seem to be well thought of at this moment on the forum. Not sure of the best controller, I am still reading and learning.

Speed is not essential but engraving quality, finish of the cut material and machine uptime are essential!!!

Is there any chinese spec machines that can match or come close to Epilog / Trotec machines.

Thanks in advance

Daz...

[Bert Kemp]

Is there any chinese spec machines that can match Epilog / Trotec.

simple answer NO

But there are decent Chinese machines, they are slower but do a decent job at a 3rd or less the cost.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

What i am trying to understand is at a 1/3 of the cost of a Epilog / Trotec would i be expected to see a 1/3 of the quality and reliability of the more expensive machines or am I being too pessimistic?

[Bert Kemp]

Again and this is just my opinion I would say no.
a decent quality Chinese laser does perfectly exceptable work. many of the guys here use them in their business.

[David Somers]

Darrell,

For a Chinese machine, cutting speeds will be close to the same as for a western machine of equivalent power. It is engraving speed where the difference shows, and Trotec will be the clear leader of the pack.

In terms of quality of the work? On a well adjusted machine you would have to hold them up to each other to see the difference. I recently saw the famed Epilog "Mayan Calendar" engraved and cut by an Epi and also engraved and cut on an 80 watt Chinese machine with similar lens focal lengths. With a magnifying glass I think I could tell the difference, but simply looking at them with the naked eye I could not see it. If you were working solely in wood I think you would have a hard time seeing the difference. Wood is simply not that exact a material. For example. This photo was taken of a snowflake I just cut on an 80 watt EFR tube with a 2in lens on my Chinese machine. The diameter is between 1.5 and 2 in. It is pretty fine detail for cutting wood, and came out pretty nice in my opinion. This was maple BTW, and immedietly after the cut. I haven't picked it yet so there is still a little stuck piece or two in it.

343852

In terms of reliability. Not sure how to quantify that. If you buy direct from China you will find getting tech support from a good company is still a bit of a challenge because of language differences, and also because of date and time differences and the holidays kept in China. Some are quite long and you wont find much if any support while they are going. They will be there for you, but not 24x7 and not without some effort on both your parts. However, Chinese machines are far more generic than the western machines, so you can turn to almost anyone for parts and support. You don't have to go back to the manufacturer for anything other than warranted replacements if needed.

If you buy from China direct AND are somewhat sensitive to down time you should probably be fairly independent in terms of comfort around mechanical repairs and electronics. You dont need to be an electronics engineer, but you should be comfortable getting into things and have a fair understanding of what is what so you can diagnose and make repairs yourself, or with direction over the phone.

If you are more sensitive to downtime or not as savvy with mechanical and electronics as you might want you may want to consider purchasing a Chinese machine from a US company like Rabbit laser USA or Bodor or Automation Technology (an SMC supporter I believe) or someone who imports these machines into the US and then goes over them carefully and provides support directly. In the case of Rabbit Laser they even bring your machine to you, help you set it up so you learn how to align and diagnose and fix problems, and then show you how to operate the machine. That is a huge head start for a new user with a low tolerance for downtime or fussing about time.

I can't give you any numbers on reliability of Chinese machines other than anecdotally. For my own experience, I have not had any downtime from failures. Only from my own mistakes. If I do have an outage I am comfortable getting into the machine and digging. I know I can rely on my manufacturer for help, provided I am patient with the date/time and language barriers. And I dont mind going to Mainland sources for help and paying for that if needed.

If you are a production shop with a heavy reliance on that machine I might suggest Trotec for speed and support.
Or
Do something like find two decent used Epilogs or similar machines so that you have a spare if one goes down. I had a neighbor with an engraving/trophy shop in West Seattle who did that. He found 3 Epi's in good shape used. If one went down he had the others to keep working. He did mostly engraving so having all 3 running was not unusual for him. He rarely cut so he wasn't tied to watching the cutting machine closely. (fire is a big risk when cutting and you should not take your eyes off a working cut job. That makes it hard/risky to be a single user with multiple machines doing cuts.)

Hope that helps and jives with everyone else's thoughts?

Dave

[Bert Kemp]

Just to add to what Dave said. I had a really bad experience with another laser company which you can read about here if you search my posts. But after that Rabbit was recommended and I bought a 6040 with a 60watt tube from them 2 years ago. I was really apprehensive about going from the machine I had as it was easy to use but had lousy support and a few other problems. People here convinced me it would not be a problem. Ray at Rabbit Laser gave me a days training and I've been running for 2 years now with very little problems most of which were corel related.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

In terms of quality of the work? On a well adjusted machine you would have to hold them up to each other to see the difference

Thank you both for your advice and views.

David you mention "on a well adjusted machine". Does this mean for example i.e: mirrors aligned, clean lenses, correct extraction, cool tube etc or does it refer to tweaks of the machine after it was delivered, i.e: upgrading parts on the machine etc?

Also does a RF tube help with quality over the CO2 tubes? I know of 2 x UK suppliers of imported chinese lasers both about 50 miles of where I am based, one claims to offer an RF tube as an upgrade option but it comes at a price which is understandable (not sure if I can post links to products offered)

I am begining to build a spec \ list for a chinese laser should I decide to go down that route:

Purpose: Quality Cutting and Quality Engraving 1/4" Acrylic Wood etc:
Power: 240V
80W Laser: Co2 \ RF
Approx 1200mm Max Width Cabinet (Not yet sure if a 80W Laser tube would fit)
XY Motors: Servo \ Stepper?
Z Motor: Servos \ Stepper?
DSP: Make Model????
Motherboard: ?
Network Cat 5 \ USB
Zense Lenses: Sizes?
Mirrors: ??
Air Assist:
Chiller Cooler:

Daz...

[Mike Null]

When assuming that the Chinese laser is one third the cost of the metal or ceramic tube machines, keep in mind that is just the initial cost. If you read the posts you will find that in virtually every instance there is frequent parts replacement, particularly tubes and there is considerable down time with Chinese lasers.

As far as I'm concerned those considerations should be factored into the cost comparison. Then too, resale value of the ULS, Trotecs and Epilogs is multiples of Chinese lasers.

That said, if your budget is limited, or if you're looking for a hobby machine there are Chinese machines that will fit the bill.

[Dave Sheldrake]

and there is considerable down time with Chinese lasers.

A common misconception Mike :) there are a lot of posts here about Chinese machine down time but then again not many people post on forums saying how happy they are with any given item.

Darrell, re-gassing RF tubes is REALLY expensive here, my Speedy 300 120 watt will cost £6,500 to have regassed and the speedy is almost 2x the cost here that it is in the US.

Be VERY careful with UK dealers selling lasers...in the entire country there are only two worth bothering with and of those two only one has a real laser guy running it (and I mean somebody that knows these things inside out and the go to guy I call when I'm stuck) and thats HPC Lasers in Halifax.

RF tubes are great and 99% of the time premium quality but UK wise the RF machines cost a LOT more to buy and maintain.

Looking at your specs

LS1290 with an 80 watt tube from HPC...If folks knew how my 1290 had been treated their hair would fall out (left outside in the rain etc, moved workplaces 4 times, abused, taken apart, generally beaten up) and it's sat next to me running nicely :) In 7 years it's had 2 tubes, 1 set of mirrors and the usual £25 len's changes. When I need anything for it, I pick up the phone and it's with me the next day :)

[Jerome Stanek]

When assuming that the Chinese laser is one third the cost of the metal or ceramic tube machines, keep in mind that is just the initial cost. If you read the posts you will find that in virtually every instance there is frequent parts replacement, particularly tubes and there is considerable down time with Chinese lasers.

As far as I'm concerned those considerations should be factored into the cost comparison. Then too, resale value of the ULS, Trotecs and Epilogs is multiples of Chinese lasers.

That said, if your budget is limited, or if you're looking for a hobby machine there are Chinese machines that will fit the bill.

If your Speedy tube goes out how long and how much is it. I can have a new 60watt tube and install in 1 day and it would only be $400 plus tax for me.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

Thanks for peoples input!!

Dave, HPC is one of the companies who I mentioned in a previous email. I have spoken to them but not in depth but have enquired about a demo, which are every Friday. They have already sent me some samples etc.

The other business is called 'Just Add Sharks' in Nottingham. I don't really know anything about them except they are part of hackspace and Maker Faire.

Just Add Sharks are good at responding to emails. I have enquired about their Greyfin and Whitetooth models (specs are on their website), they use steppers, 1000DPI and 0.1mm kerf. The tubes are now 'Yongli A2' as they were having problems with RECI tubes according to our email chats. Their units have a current meter so you can monitor power to the tube, I have also enquired with them about a demo which is fine.

As you can see I am researching as much as possible at the moment, from a cost point of view, I am open to options. I tend to make orders on the fly. i.e: when an order comes in I will make it. Hence my concern over reliability, last thing I need from a customer service point of view is a machine that has issues and orders to fulfil.

In a way I am wanting the best of both worlds, cheap but quality and reliability which, I know rarely come together!!

Daz....

[Dave Sheldrake]

AddSharks are imported / rebranded Weikes,to be honest they haven't been around long and Martyn isn't a laser specialist. He bought himself a machine, saw the import prices and decided to buy more in to sell. YongLi tubes are cheap...nowhere near the quality of Reci's that have been set up properly.

Kerf is controlled by the tubes beam...not by the seller of the machines :) pretty much all Chinese machines use steppers (other than a few that use servo's).

Current meters measure residual current from the tube :) from that you best guess the current going into the tube.

If I had a £1 for every seller I've seen pop up in the UK selling lasers I wouldn't be working, then again if I had a £1 for every one I'd seen collapse inside 2 years I'd be even richer :)

[Matt McCoy]

When assuming that the Chinese laser is one third the cost of the metal or ceramic tube machines, keep in mind that is just the initial cost. If you read the posts you will find that in virtually every instance there is frequent parts replacement, particularly tubes and there is considerable down time with Chinese lasers.

As far as I'm concerned those considerations should be factored into the cost comparison. Then too, resale value of the ULS, Trotecs and Epilogs is multiples of Chinese lasers.

That said, if your budget is limited, or if you're looking for a hobby machine there are Chinese machines that will fit the bill.

Hey there Mike: I think "virtually every instance" and "frequent parts replacement" is not necessarily true. Maybe it seems high for those looking for help on SMC, but probably doesn't reflect a true ratio considering the amount of machines sold. How many times does someone register for a forum then post "Everything is pretty great -- no problems here!"? Glass tubes are a consumable, like printer cartridges, and will eventually need to be replaced. Since most parts are not proprietary, they are typically inexpensive and widely available from from lots of vendors quickly. My personal experience with 4 Chinese lasers that see a lot of use, is a few new tubes and a warranty-replaced power supply in four years.

Chinese lasers are not just for hobbyists or budget-limited mom and pop start-ups with no capital, but a viable option for lots of businesses. China is the manufacturer to the world (trademark pending, I'm sure) and you would probably find lots of factories with Chinese-built lasers in them cranking out parts.

[Keith Winter]

I would side with Mike on this. While the problems with Chinese lasers are generally much cheaper to fix they do occur more often and they tend to go out of alignment and such more easily, and more often, requiring more maintenance. Secondly you have a warranty and generally better support with US made machines.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

I was a little wary of AddSharks because I couldn't find much info on them, that's not saying they are not reputable dealers. Thanks for your opinion.

I will have a drive up to HPC once Epilog and Trotec have shown me what their machines can do but I will also keep looking at the possibility of a chinese import.

At the minute the chinese manufacturers I have managed to shortlist are Weike, Thunder laser, Ray Fines, there may be more but I am still doing my homework.

Am I right in assuming that 'IF' I contacted a chinese factory direct for a quote, that any piece of hardware for example an AWC 708 controller can work with any tube etc, etc or is it a bit more complicated than this.

Daz...

[Mike Null]

Two points: I understand that some are having good results with Chinese machines. Perhaps the best example is Rodney Gold in S. Africa. But Rodney has several of them so if one goes down he's not out of business.

Secondly, I had my tube rebuilt two years ago (it was 8 years old) and I paid $3000 to have it done. There is another place which advertises $1100 and I may try them should I need to have the tube rebuilt again. But only after more research.

It was not my intent to exaggerate but it does seem that most of the people who have purchased Chinese laser have issues of one type or another.

[Gene Uselman]

I have a great Chicom laser- very well built with good parts (EFR tube and 3phase steppers, etc) and once sorted (and the DSP changed from Leetro to Ruida- as I prefer RDworks software) I am delighted with it. So, yes the DSP can be changed or if you are buying direct the mfrg should be able to provide most machines with whatever DSP you like. If you are considering a Chicom laser, I would recommend these videos- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqCyShJXqnElPTUnxX0mD5A - he is very thorough and if you keep in mind that he bought a bottom rung laser from Ebay, there is a lot of free info there. Gene

[Dave Sheldrake]

That's over there Mike, tube refills are horrendous here. Near $10,000 for a 120 watt for my speedy 300

[Dave Sheldrake]

I was a little wary of AddSharks because I couldn't find much info on them, that's not saying they are not reputable dealers. Thanks for your opinion.

I will have a drive up to HPC once Epilog and Trotec have shown me what their machines can do but I will also keep looking at the possibility of a chinese import.

At the minute the chinese manufacturers I have managed to shortlist are Weike, Thunder laser, Ray Fines, there may be more but I am still doing my homework.

Am I right in assuming that 'IF' I contacted a chinese factory direct for a quote, that any piece of hardware for example an AWC 708 controller can work with any tube etc, etc or is it a bit more complicated than this.

Daz...

All of the current Chinese controllers (DSP's) will work with any of the mainstream DC tubes (and RF tubes if you go that road) all they do is supply either a PWM or 0-5V signal to the high voltage supply to fire the tube so it doesn't actually know what tube it is sending the signal to (there is no feedback)

Weike aren't what they used to be, support is sporadic and mostly just read from a "Fix your laser 1-10 sheet", RayFine aren't bad, Thunder are pretty good. Shenhui are big manufacturers as well (one of the biggest) HX won't sell direct (they are the HPC Machines)

Trotec are excellent machines for engraving, even those though will struggle to get close to the speed of a Galvo (Galvo's have much smaller working areas though)

I love my Trotec but I cannot justify the cost of a new 200 watt machine just to refill the tube.

[Mike Null]

Dave

That sounds to me like a lucrative business opportunity for someone with your expertise.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Dave

That sounds to me like a lucrative business opportunity for someone with your expertise.

Looked at it Mike but to be honest at 50 I'm planning on doing less these days not more and retiring inside 5 years, I've done some tube filling and built resonators for fun but after the year I've just had I decided I want to spend more time at home not less :)
The last year has made me realise what is really important and what isn't ;)

[Kev Williams]

Here is my overly simplistic and probably not entirely accurate descriptions of the differences between Western metal and Chinese glass lasers, as I see them...

A Western laser is like driving a new BMW. Easy to figure out, easy to operate, smooth controls, does its intended job wonderfully.
A Chinese laser is like driving a 1982 Peterbilt. Very tall learning curve, a bit cumbersome shifting that 13 speed and 2 speed rear diff, but it gets the job done, if somewhat brutally ;)

A Western laser's beam quality is kind of like cutting skin with a scalpel.
A Chinese laser's beam quaility is kind of like cutting skin with a chef's knife...

Ever watch an SUV's LED turn signals in its rear-view mirror work in relation to the regular incandescent bulbs out back?
...The LED's turn on and off instantaneously, while the incandescent's appear to turn on and off in slow motion...

DC glass tubes and RF metal tubes work kind of the same way:
--DC glass tubes are the incandescent bulbs--
--RF metal tubes are the LED's....

RF tubes always(?) fire in pulses. I think I saw somewhere that typical RF lasers like we use are capable of firing up to 16 million times per second. On a Trotec or Gravo running at 150" per second, that's 106,666 dots per inch. So I guess 3200 DPI is childs play ;)

DC tubes are always(?) either ON or OFF, they don't pulse.

Because RF tubes fire in pulses, each pulse fires the same as the last one, equally spaced. With the instant-on-instant-off nature of the pulses, nearly all the burn the laser puts down will be equal regardless of engraving speed...
Because DC tubes don't fire in pulses, and by their not-so-instant on/off nature, engraving speed is a huge issue...

Engraving speed affects the 'total burn' on an RF laser. Slow the speed, get more burn. But, ALL the burn, everywhere you look, will be almost identical. I say 'almost' because very small details can suffer regardless... :)

But on a DC laser, engraving speed affects the 'average burn'. In most cases the 'average burn' of a DC laser will be perfectly fine, but under magnification, you can see variations. This is because of the slow-firing nature; it takes quite a bit of time (relatively speaking) for a glass laser to reach full power once it's on. When spanning short passes, say the vertical bar of a "T", the laser will be barely getting hot before it's time to shut off. However, on the long horizontal bar of the "T", the laser can reach full power before well before time to shut off. Therefore, the long bar will be visibly more burned than the vertical bar. And the faster you engrave, the more pronounced this issue gets. (This issue gives me fits with Cermark, get the narrow bars okay, the long bars overburn. Get the long bars okay, the narrow bars don't burn enough)

An RF laser running at 500 dots per inch on the X axis is going to put down the same equal burn pulses across the short bar as it does the long bar, whether running at 1" or 150" per second.

In another thread, I posted up these pics of some wood I engraved with my glass laser as a size test. It's also perfect to demonstrate the "slow motion" issue with glass lasers. I did the 'deeper' and 'shallow' engravings at different power settings, 12% for the shallow and 25% for the deep. All engraving was done at 400mm/second. You can clearly see in both deep and shallow versions, as the lettering got smaller, the actual burn reduced substantally. In fact, the 3 smaller 'shallow' engravings I had to do a second time. Note the 5mm shallow has depth and is fairly dark, while the 2.5mm shallow is nearly invisible. The last 3 are only visible because of the second pass!
343917343915343916
Since the power didn't change, the problem was the speed. The laser simply couldn't keep up.

So that said, I just had to run the same test with my 12 year old Metal LS900, here's the results...
Note I have the shallow and deep backwards, oops! But that DID make it easier to figure out which machine did which! ;)
343918343919343920

First pic, glass left, metal right-- but as you check out the engraving my metal laser just did,
you'll note there's virtually no variation on the actual burn between engravings, save for some small variations with the smallest text.
Metal laser detail is better too, but my Triumph doesn't do too bad!

I'm sure Chinese machines are capable mechanically of much higher than the 500-800 mm/second max speeds. I believe the reason for the slow max speeds has a lot to do with the fact the lasers themselves can't keep up. I can, and have run mine at 1000mm/sec, and the engraving quality was much less than stellar...

So that's my take on the differences between metal and glass lasers. For what it's worth :)

[Keith Winter]

Good easy to understand explanation Kev!

[Dave Sheldrake]

Not far off Kev but RF tubes are available pulsed / Cw but it's a bit more complicated than that.The beam does go on and off in an RF but that doesn't mean it's a pulsed laser. The rise time of an RF is in effect instant......signal-rise-lase where in a DC depending on the gas mix and temperatures it runs signal-rise-peak-lase

The problem is many of the terms involved get used in more than one place (like Beam Frequency and Pulse Repetition Frequency) one controls the wavelength, the other is how many PWM cycles are used for example.

Then it all gets really complicated when you take glass tubes like the GSI SLC series, twice the price of the same power in RF but still DC tubes and capable of huge powers and beam quality (far above what a cheaper RF in a trotec will manage)

In general comparing a cheap Chinese tube (RECI / EFR etc etc) with an RF is moot as a decent DC like the SLC exceeds what even a good RF from Syrad will do. In general it comes down to quality of the tube manufacture and while excellent even EFR are well below that of an average RF. Then again they should be, a 240watt EFR is $4,000 a 240Watt RF is closer to $30,000

There are also a lot of DC powered Galvo's that will peak at 9,000mm per second so the machine speeds don't come close to what the tubes will actually do. (most of it is the much higher weight of the optical head on a DC that makes it slower)

As a rule, affordable tubes of the same output, the RF will give better results but at a higher price.

[Keith Downing]

Hi,

I have been roaming around the forums for a few weeks and reading up on laser specs and reviews, many thanks for all the information that as been posted.

I am a small sign maker, home based and I am in the market for a laser engraver and cutter. I have a couple of demo's booked with Epilog and Trotec but I am willing to consider the idea of a chinese laser (because of the cost savings). Part of my business already imports goods from Australia, Germany, Italy etc, so I am happy to consider an import. Space is very tight in my small workshop i can accommodate approx a 1200mm wide laser unit.

From what I have read, i believe I would be looking at an 80W laser to cover cutting and engraving 1/4" 6.35mm Oak, Acrylic, MDF, other woods etc.

EFR tubes seem to be well thought of at this moment on the forum. Not sure of the best controller, I am still reading and learning.

Speed is not essential but engraving quality, finish of the cut material and machine uptime are essential!!!

Is there any chinese spec machines that can match or come close to Epilog / Trotec machines.

Thanks in advance

Daz...

You've gotten a lot of good advice/info here, so I won't repeat anything already stated.

One thing I will add though: You say speed is not essential, just engrave quality. But, if you'll be doing a lot of work that is engraved (like sign makers often do) that may turn out to be one of the MOST important factors for you.

I have a boss laser, and I like it a lot. Very good value for the money, and having the US support for the Chinese machine was pretty close to priceless for my first purchase (and experience with laser engravers).

However, the one weakness (and really the only one so far I've experienced) is that it is extremely slow doing high quality engraving compared to a high end US machine. This may not seem like a big deal at first, but it is generally a pretty good rule not to leave a laser unattended while it is running. So, you're standing there dedicating your time to the project as long as it is running, every time. On my laser to do a high quality 8x26 inch engraving (we do a number of signs for weddings this size) it takes about 45+ minutes to run. It looks great at the end, I would never pay another cent to increase quality on wood engravings. But that extra engraving time really cuts into profitability for custom work, and all but eliminates the possibility of competing for anything "mass produced". When someone else with a faster laser can create 3-4 signs in the same time I can create 1, it's an uphill battle to price competitively no matter what I do.

Now it may not matter much if you're doing mostly cutting, really high end custom work, or small metal or part marking; but for me speed of engraving is the only thing that makes me really consider buying another machine or upgrading mine.

But maybe it's just based on the value I place on my time; and the formula may be different for others. But, if you're doing this to increase your productivity and offerings for a business, it may be a major concern for you as well. Anyways, just my $.02.

[Rodne Gold]

I would never go for an expensive "westernised" machine again , got a whole herd of chinese machines that work exceptionally , easy and cheap to fix . engraving quality is as good as any other machine's , speed a little slower , price a WHOLE lot cheaper
my 2 shenhuis have been going strong for 5 years with only lens and tube replacements and my longtai's have performed flawlessly .. a single tube replacement due to operator error is the only maintenance
The machines in my facility are borderline "abused" in terms of maintenance and it make little difference as to their performance.
I bought my 6 x 60w 600x400 Longtais for under $15k door to door...(for all 6) , we have 4 commissioned and 2 still in the crates..
Lasers are tools , not investments .. at $2.5k per machine , if i get a years worth of high production I have made 10x their worth per machine or more.. if i had a catastrophic failure on any one , I would just dump it and buy another.

[Bert Kemp]

Keith I don't really think its necessary to stand by and watch it engrave wood, theres little if any chance it will catch fire while engraving. Cutting is were the real risk lies and cutting speeds are similar for both western and Chinese machines and both should be watched while cutting.

[Keith Downing]

Keith I don't really think its necessary to stand by and watch it engrave wood, theres little if any chance it will catch fire while engraving. Cutting is were the real risk lies and cutting speeds are similar for both western and Chinese machines and both should be watched while cutting.

I've thought about this a lot myself. And eventually plan to add a camera to allow remote monitoring. But most people say it's just not a good idea to leave the machine completely unattended no matter what function it is performing. And, as my shop is attached to my house, I tend to err on the side of safety.

[Bert Kemp]

Better safe then sorry. My laser is in the house and when engraving I'm never more then a few feet away, usually sitting at the computer right next to the laser, sometimes I'll get a coffee in the kitchen but I still can see the laser, I just don't hover over it, but when I'm cutting I stand right there and watch and if I have to leave it for any reason I pause the job, then continue when I get back.


I've thought about this a lot myself. And eventually plan to add a camera to allow remote monitoring. But most people say it's just not a good idea to leave the machine completely unattended no matter what function it is performing. And, as my shop is attached to my house, I tend to err on the side of safety.

[David Somers]

Darrell....apologies. I missed your question until just now.

By a well adjusted machine I mean your lens and mirrors are properly aligned. And that the focus spacer/gauge that came with your laser is accurate which you check by doing a ramp test for that lens (a search for ramp test in the forum will get you the instructions.) And your lens and mirror are clean and kept that way. Also, that your table is on the same plane as your gantry XY plane. In my case I have both an aluminum knife or slat table which sits under my steel honeycomb table. I removed the honeycomb table and then put my lens in one corner of the knife table and used my focusing spacer to get the lens focused on the top of the knife edge in that corner. Then I moved the lens to the far end of that knife edge and adjusted that end of the knife edge until it was in focus as well. Note I did NOT adjust the lens tube. I brought the top of the knife edge into the focal point using my spacer. Then I repeated that process on each of the knife edge blades so each and every blade was at the same height relative to the bottom of the lens tube. So the knife edge table was now on the parallel to the plane of the gantry XY axis. Then I placed the honeycomb back on and rechecked its 4 corners with my space to be sure it was also parallel to the plane of the gantry. This last bit doesn't actually count towards a well adjusted machine, but I drilled though my honeycomb frame into my table frame and threaded the holes in the table so I could bolt down the honeycomb. Then I added straight edges on the left, back and right sides that are aligned with my X and Y axis. Now I can remove the honeycomb to clean and put it back exactly where it came from and have guides that are square to my XY axis. I personally like things that are square and repeateable.

I also went through the machine after getting it and made sure every electrical connection was snugged down and secure. I added an extra light to the inside of the cover for my convenience. And I added a milliamp meter connected to my laser EFR tube so I can easily see how much juice is flowing through it, and I know for certain how my manufacturer set up their power settings. I won't accidentally over power my tube. Plus I have a cheap diagnostic tool in place if I needed it.

Those are the things I did to get it all adjusted. The main things though are the mirrors and lens alignments, and the table being parallel to the plane of the gantry.

And on a Chinese machine, unless you have gone through the trouble to locktite every screw, you will want to check all these alignments now and then to be sure they havent wandered. So far, mine havent wandered. But then I locktited everything but the mirror/lens fittings. (I know....bordering on OCD with a soupcon of anal retentive....<grin>)

[Rodne Gold]

We unpacked my longtai's fitted the tubes and began engraving immediately
I followed Yarde Feng , the R&d guy at shenui to his new position at longtai..
He checked each machine before shipping , they were all aligned , square etc etc..
REALLY well made machinery for the price ... the 20w fiber he supplied was the same , unpack and run

We havent even bothered with chillers for these machines , we use a 25l bucket of water and the aquarium pumps provided , same with air assist , we havent connected the machines to our main air supply , just use the cheapo pumps that came with the machines..
As to fires..well we have had a few in the 15+ years we been running lasers despite having dedicated operators... never take them for granted.... ESPECIALLY if they are in your house.. a fire can happen in seconds...
I am on the cusp of deciding to buy a 2-3kw fibre laser cutter , 3m x 1.5m from Yarde ..must just decide whether I want to get into that side of the laser business..
A month ago I had a massive heart attack and that resulted in a quad bypass ..open heart.. so I am still recovering .. it might be too much for me to mess with a laser cutter this year..I wanted to fly to china to see Yarde and the machine in operation ..,so it will most likely be next year.. this machine will be well over $60k
5000lbs in total....

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

Many thanks for everyones input, suggestions and experience. I must admit I am leaning 70%-30% towards a chinese machine based on the information provided and the more I read. The BIG problem for me is restricted space, I had a look at the HPC machine (HX imported) however its a bit too large, the maximum machine width i can accommodate is 1200mm.

I have had a look at the Thunderlaser Nova24 (Mini60) but their biggest tube in this model is 60W. If i have read up correctly an 80W tube is a good choice for cutting and engraving. Does anyone know if an 80W tube will even fit into a 1200mm machine case / space?

Thanks again.

Daz......

[Dave Sheldrake]

the maximum machine width i can accommodate is 1200mm.

an 80 watt tube wont fit in your machine space

The RECI is 1260mm long, the EFR is 1250mm long, a standard narrow body 80 watt is 1650mm Long

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

an 80 watt tube wont fit in your machine space

The RECI is 1260mm long, the EFR is 1250mm long, a standard narrow body 80 watt is 1650mm Long

Thanks Dave, might have to consider a 60W machine.

[Bill George]

Rodne, Some open heart bypass surgery patients can take up to a year before they are back to normal. Good Luck and just take your time for recovery.

[Kev Williams]

Good luck with your recovery Rod!

And that laser cutter sounds like a bargain, you can't buy 2 decent Trotec's for that money...

I was not too long ago looking into a laser or plasma cutter, but--
(a) I already have enough machinery stuffed into this little house and garage, and
(b) half of my customers are in the metal cutting biz, the other half have their own machines to cut their parts... :)

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hope things get better Rod :)

Humm metal cutting...given my time over again I'd go for a few 2kw fibres on a 3m x 2m bed and a couple of plasmas for the thick stuff. Big CO2 is dying very quickly mostly due to maintenance costs and initial price :(

[David Somers]

Rodne!

Seems like I am in the wrong hemisphere to be of quick help to you but if you need anything that I can help you with please don't hesitate to ask!!!

Dave!

[Keith Downing]

Thanks Dave, might have to consider a 60W machine.


I have the 60 watt tube and it cuts up to about 1/4" wood just fine. I'm not sure how thick you're trying to cut, or if you're just trying to do it 10-15% faster, but I think there is minimal difference between a true 60 watt and 80 watt. In fact, a lot of the manufacturer's I looked at jump from 60 to 100 w tubes. And I think you'll have to go up to at least a 100w to cut 1/2" or thicker wood on one pass.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

I have the 60 watt tube and it cuts up to about 1/4" wood just fine

Keith do you happen to know if 60W will cut 6mm Acrylic? The wood I am thinking of cutting and engraving is primaraly Oak with other types of wood in lower quantities, speed at the minute is not important.

Daz.....

[Kev Williams]

I cut 3/8" cast with my 40w synrad, I see no reason any 60w wouldn't cut 1/4"--

[Rodne Gold]

Thanks for the concern and good wishes .. recovering well touch wood...
60w chinese tube will cut 6mm well , 8mm is about their limits
Lasers dont do well as wood cutting machines barring thin stuff , engraves well tho

if you want to get into the business , shell out $3k and get a cheap machine , make it work for you and dont lose the farm doing so..if the business takes off .. buy a few more .. if it doesnt you have a nice toy and just spent $3k on school fees...

[Keith Downing]

Keith do you happen to know if 60W will cut 6mm Acrylic? The wood I am thinking of cutting and engraving is primaraly Oak with other types of wood in lower quantities, speed at the minute is not important.

Daz.....

I think you already got your answer, but yes the 60w I have will reliably cut 1/4" (6mm) acrylic!

[Rich Harman]

Keith I don't really think its necessary to stand by and watch it engrave wood, theres little if any chance it will catch fire while engraving...

... unless a stepper fails, or a driver fails, wire comes loose, belt breaks etc...

If there is anything flammable in the machine you are rolling the dice every time you leave it unattended, cutting or engraving.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

Thanks for everyones responses.

I will continue researching, I have contacted Thunderlaser direct for a quote but it appears they have a dealer in the UK. On a side note and I have not checked this out with UK Trading Standards etc yet but if I bought a chinese machine BUT from a UK importer supplier, with UK VAT invoice etc do I have more warranty cover and consumer rights regarding breakdowns etc than importing from China? Hope that makes sense.

I sell some electronics that I import and I sell them with 24 months warranty, albeit they are imported from the EU, I have put a link below regarding EU rules on sales etc.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1677034/Two-year-warranty-EU-law.html

Thanks again

Daz....

[Dave Sheldrake]

If you buy from a UK dealer you have all the rights in UK law :)

An imported machine may not even be legal in some cases and doesn't always meet UK factory / Business regulations for safety.

[DARRELL WOOTTON]

Thanks Dave, thought so.

I have another question but not sure whether to start a new thread on this. I am going to visit and be demonstrated a number of machines from different suppliers. These guys will know the strengths and weakness of their machines and so they can decide what tests will make their machine look top notch. Like with a lot of products, a salesman will only point out the strengths and vary rarely show the weakness of a product.

Are there any particular test cuts or engravings that will help to point out the strengths and weakness of a machine \ laser. i.e: cutting circles, square triangles etc on a 60W\80W at certain power \ speeds.

Thanks again.

Daz....

[Dave Sheldrake]

You will be surprised, at HPC ask for Chris Jacobs or Simon Mallas, both very clever people...neither of them really interested in making a sale as such so will let you have the full run down of any questions you have :)

Thing is they supply hundreds of machines in the UK so making one more sale here or there in their bigger picture doesn't really have the pressure that smaller sellers have. You won't get the fluff you get from some sellers (oh you can cut 2 mile thick acrylic with this etc etc) that while on paper is true...in the real world means nothing if cycle times are 10 years ;)

Ask what spares your dealer has, ask them how much spares cost, ask them if they can do call outs to fix it if it goes wrong...those are the important things. Being told "We can get them but don't keep them in stock" is usually a bad sign

[Martin Raynsford]

Looks like you've been receiving a lot of good information here. I would imagine that anyone who can find their way to forums like this and work their way through the information is more than capable of importing direct from China.

Just Add Sharks is the UK reseller for Weike but we're not tied to them as a company, we based our decision purely on the quality of their machines.
We have all of our machines in stock so we're not having them built to order but like any good seller if you catch us on a bad day we're going to be out of stock and the wait from China is so very long. We're not a drop shipper, machines are built to our specifications and we ensure the quality of the machines before we send them out again.

I'm pleased to say we've passed the 2 year mark and have been operating for nearly 4 years now, we even have multiple technicians (all appropriately trained) so we don't have to go out to every customer but we do our fair share because it's important to keep in touch with the buyer to find out exactly what they want/expect.

Just Add Sharks has hundreds of satisfied customers, because of our approachable nature they tend to be artists and crafters who don't frequent these kinds of forums, that makes it hard to find reviews from people that have actually used our services. They need a bit more support than the technical people but we're happy to provide it, we still remember when we got our first machines and how intimidating it can all be, people appreciate having someone in the UK who is responsive.

We do use Yongli Tubes in our 40W and 60W machines, afaik RECI don't go down to that size. We also rate our tubes by continuous power rather than maximum power so I suppose we should start saying >40W and >60W but that feels silly.
We briefly used Yongli 80W tubes, the RECI Z2 tubes were the industry standard but RECI stopped manufacturing them and started shipping the S2 tubes instead. We received a dozen tubes that didn't reach 40W of power which was unacceptable to us, we couldn't ship them out to the customers like that so we switched to Yongli 80W tubes to get us over the hump. RECI S2 are now back up to standard so we're using those again but we monitor the situation and react accordingly. All we can do is be open and honest with people about what's happening.



Martin isn't a laser specialist

It's a tough crowd, I have 15 years experience of manufacturing automated systems like laser cutters, I have a degree in automated systems manufacturing and I have racked up thousands of hours using and maintaining laser cutters. I'm not sure how to become classified a specialist?