Was about to buy an A3 31, then saw this (insane?) deal...

[Dan Friedrichs]

After reading every thread on SMC about the A3 31, I was about to pull the trigger, but the Felder rep sent me this in an email:


Hammer C3-31 Comfort package 60th Anniversary $9,995 **Shipping included**
http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/combination-machines/combination-machine-with-the-comfort-feature-package-c3-31-comfort.html (http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/combination-machines/combination-machine-with-the-comfort-feature-package-c3-31-comfort.html)
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=801e112583&view=fimg&th=15707835f74fb64c&attid=0.0.2&disp=emb&attbid=ANGjdJ-9DSuISKjNz2M0HeMviEPsx21P6sroCZb4Ttb5K_0AFZIy3ym2E OlFOT7UalO7cdcddbnAeM1HsuKkgBUA_hoSXRN5iShSbOJAniM 9a8ndtuFZEDjE86jCncg&sz=s0-l75-ft&ats=1473531858478&rm=15707835f74fb64c&zw&atsh=1
Included options:
44 - silent power cutterblock
74 - mechanical scoring unit
82 - dado preparation
104 - 1 1/4 spindle
132 - 78" sliding table
160 - outrigger 1100
113 - mulit adj system for shaper fence
163 - precision miter index system
168 - crosscut fence 51" (instead of 36")
210/211 - rolling carriage and lifting bar



Accessories included:
400-108 eccentric clamp
410-190 adapter for clamp
503-120 router spindle speed 3,000/6,000/8,00/10,000 rpm
500-04-067 precision collet chuck 6,35 mm (1/4")
500-04-075 precision collet chuck 12,7 mm (1/2")
03.13.25040 Silent power classic universal saw blade D=250mm
03.09.08020 adj TCT scoring saw balde D=80mm
04.0.070.31 Safety profile knife set with safety cutterhead, consisting of 6 pairs of safety-profile knives/limitation blades



Am I reading this all correctly? That seems like an insanely good deal. My plan was to start with the A3-31 to replace my jointer and planer, then EVENTUALLY get a slider to replace my TS. But this is an all-in-one, for about half the price of the A3-31 (with spiral cutter and shipping).

I know the slider length is a little short, but I have a tracksaw. I wouldn't do plywood on this, anyways.

Thoughts? Am I missing something?

[John Lankers]

I can't comment on the price since I'm north of the border, but a 78" sliding table is not the end of the world unless you rip full length sheets of plywood all day every day - there are work arounds like auxiliary slider on top of the Hammer slider.
Question him regarding the router spindle speed, 10,000 RPM max. is too slow.
Also, this has recently been covered, you may want to look into adding a power feeder for the shaper for safety reasons.

[Frederick Skelly]

Am I reading it right - slider, planer, jointer and router/shaper - for $10k, delivered? From a reputable manufacturer? Man, I've never had any interest in a Euro machine, but with that kind of deal..... wow. Good thing I already have all those machines or this would be tough not to take.

Be interesting to see what the Community thinks here.

[Andy Giddings]

Sent you a PM Dan. John is right about the table. 78 is big enough to crosscut a standard sheet. All the time I've made standard cabinets, I've always crosscut them to start with so this is not an issue for me. On the rare occasion I need to rip a sheet I'd use the tracksaw. Getting the sheet onto the slider is a lot easier if you buy the roller accessory that goes on the end of the outrigger. Still a bit cumbersome but once its on there (don't forget to lock the slider like I did once), its easy to move it around. I've stopped using the tracksaw since I've had the C3, and my router table is getting dusty as I always use the shaper.

As John said, the router spindle speed is too slow for anything but large diameter bits (raised panel cutters for example), but IMHO I get a better finish using a shaper cutter compared to a router bit

If you've never used a slider before it does require you to change your methods of work (its like having a huge crosscut sled), but there's plenty of good advice on how to do this in SMC and elsewhere. I would encourage you to join the Felder Owners Group on Yahoo Groups even if you're not going to buy just yet. There's a lot of good advice in the posts there as well.

[Dan Friedrichs]

That's what I was thinking, Frederick.

Andy Giddings also bought one recently, and posted this thread about it:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?246022-Hammer-C3-31-first-impressions

At the time he posted it, it didn't click in my mind that he was getting a 5-in-1 with spiral cutterhead, delivered, for $10k....

[Dan Friedrichs]

Thanks for the additional info, Andy. What is the point of the 1/4" and 1/2" collets, if 10k RPM is too slow for router bits? Is it just for...big panel raising cutters that happen to be 1/4" shank? :)

[Andy Giddings]

Dan, not sure why anyone would put a router bit with a 1/4" spindle into a shaper and expect a good result (I've never used one in a router table for that matter). Maybe its a case of "if you build it, they will come" :)

[Jim Andrew]

Wish they had sent me this deal before I bought just the slider.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Dan,

The price with a 78-inch slider and an outrigger sounds quite good. I paid almost a similar amount for a B3.
For me 78 was big enough too. I'm not sure how often you rip a full sheet.

I do use router bits for stopped dado and grooves. Yes, the cuts are a bit rougher at 10k rpm. Whenever I can use a shaper cutter, there is no reason to user router bits, unless you do not have appropriate cutter profiles in your hand.
The only operations shapers are not good at (in my limited experience) are stopped dado/grooves. For those, the super-clean cuts may not be necessary (they are usually hidden), anyway. So, I sometimes use router bits and occasionally I run into other types of operations where the router bits came very handy. It runs much quieter and smoother than routers and joy to use.

[Chris Fournier]

Thanks for the additional info, Andy. What is the point of the 1/4" and 1/2" collets, if 10k RPM is too slow for router bits? Is it just for...big panel raising cutters that happen to be 1/4" shank? :)

I have a pin router that spins at 10K and I have use router bits to great effect in it for over 20 years. 1/4" straight bits and up. I have a MM CU 410 ELITE S and wish that I had the router spindle option, it would be very useful. Don't let those that have poo pooed it turn you off it would be a great feature.

A combo machine is a great asset in the WWKg shop. I would prefer a longer slider, which I have, but ripping full sheets likely won't break the deal for you.

Good luck!

[John Lankers]

Dan, the problem with 1/4" shank bits in general is vibration and this will lead to breakage, a rough surface and tearout especially at slow speeds. Palm routers run at 25,000 - 30,000 RPM to deliver high rim speeds to overcome this problem. If you have two identical router bits one with 1/4" shank and the other with 1/2" shank you might notice a small difference in cut qualityat high rpms but at lower speeds the 1/2" shank bit excels every time.

[mreza Salav]

That seems like a very good deal. Are similar deals available on bigger Felder machines?
a 12" J/P seems downgrade from my 14" J/P (Minimax). Looking at 16" Felder combos they are in the $23k+ range here in Canada.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I don't need to be talked into spending even more money, Mreza ;)

[Mike Hollingsworth]

You gotta do this.

[mreza Salav]

Dan, was asking for myself as I like to get a long slider and a good shaper. I have been looking to get a saw/shaper for that purpose.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Ah - for some reason, I had thought you already had a 5-combo machine (not that I'm stalking your equipment - just from one of your fantastic build threads, I thought you did for some reason).

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes Dan you're missing something.

You're missing out on a great deal while you spend your time on the forum.

It's a great deal, go for it.............Regards, Rod.

[Andy Giddings]

But Rod, part of the fun of the purchase is the discussion and agonizing before making a decision :D

[Rod Sheridan]

But Rod, part of the fun of the purchase is the discussion and agonizing before making a decision :D

How true Andy, not to mention how much entertainment it makes for us in the peanut gallery:D..........Rod.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Well, Rod, I do like keeping the peanut gallery entertained :)

I ordered the C3 31, this afternoon, after Felder was able to direct me to a local owner who was willing to show me his. A VERY nice looking machine. Taking delivery in early November.

(Don't anyone tell my wife)

[Andy Giddings]

Congrats Dan - now you need to figure out how to hide it when the C3 arrives. My excuse is "Oh that? I've had that for ages" - fooling no-one of course

[mreza Salav]

Congrat's!

[Frederick Skelly]

Congratulations on your new, cool machine!