Jointer/planer advice (european)

[Niels J. Larsen]

Hi,

I'll soon be in the market for a jointer/planer as I'm trying to build a small shop in my garage.

Although I've never actually used a jointer/planer, I'm convinced I want one as I have ambitions about building some furniture for our house.

So, since I'm living in Europe I want a jointer/planer combo available in Europe (makes sence - eh ? :D )

Brand names I know are available here:

- DeWalt
- Metabo
- Electra Beckum

Not a lot - I know - but that's why I'm starting this thread!

Please let me know of other quality brands and recommendations about what I should be looking for in a jointer/planer combo (things about safety, ergono mics etc.)

Thanks!

/Niels

[Steve Rowe]

Niels - I don't know whether Dewalt makes a jointer/planer combo and at least what I have seen in the US, Metabo is strictly hand held power tools. I don't think Electra Beckum markets anything in the US (at least under that name). There are a number of fine European made J/P combos. I have a Felder which is made in Austria. Other brands would be Hammer, Knapp, Robland, Rojek, SCMI/MiniMax which are also made in Europe.

There are Yahoo Users groups for Felder and MiniMax which are very active and you may want to search the archives on these groups. I have heard that Hammer also has a group but do not belong to that one. Considerations you may want to consider other than the cutting width are:
1) type of cutterhead (Tersa, 2 knife, 4 knife, helical) I have the 4 knife and like it a lot. A number of users have the Tersa head and seem to like it but, I don't know the difference.
2) Manual or power drive for the planer table, if you anticipate a lot of swaps back and forth between planing and jointing, consider the power feed.
3) You will need a dust collection system for this equipment to work correctly.

Hope this helps,
Steve

[Steve Wargo]

Dewalt does make a very nice little Jointer planer combination machine that is only available in Europe. I believe that it is 10" capacity sort of set up like the Inca. Actually seems to be a very solid machine. Something about the safety guard does not allow it to be marketed in the U.S.

[Michael Ballent]

I just took a look at the specifications for the DeWalt and I would say that it would depend on the the types of projects you intend to build. The width of the jointer is awsome but the general rule is you can only straighten/flatten a piece of wood that is twice the length of the bed. So in this case the bed is 1000mm (about 3ft) so the longest piece of wood you could flatten/end joint would be 2000mm (about 6ft) give or take. So if you are planning on doing something larger then you will be working a bit harder to straighten a board. Of course on this side of the pond we love everything to be made with cast iron so with the fence being made of aluminum I would want to make sure that it did not move when you put pressure on it. But a combo machine would be the way to do... it just does not make sense to have a jointer that is narrower than you planer :) Also what is your budget? That could help narrow the field a bit as well. :D

[Charlie Plesums]

If you haven't used a jointer, it is tempting to buy an inexpensive one... which on this side of the pond usually means a 6 inch unit (about 150 mm) with a table about 4 feet long (1200 mm).

The jointer is the best way to get the face of the board absolutely flat... there are several good ways to get the edge of the board flat and square to the face, including the jointer, but I would never buy a jointer for edges. I strongly recommend you see how wide the typical boards are in the type of wood you are likely to use. My favorite is Walnut, and to be given the top grade, walnut boards must be over 6 inches wide. So my 6 inch jointer was almost useless.

I now have a 16 inch (410 mm) jointer and planer combo from MiniMax, made by SCMI in Italy. That is a huge step from entry level, but I doubt if I will ever need to upgrade.

One of the earlier replies wasn't sure about the Tersa knives. They are disposable Swiss knives that use a special cutter head. Changing knives becomes a very simple, quick process, with very precise automatic alignment of the blades. They last an amazingly long time, and give an outstanding surface.

[Timo Christ]

Hi Niels,

not made in europe, but available, are the machines from PWA/Bernardo (www.bernardo.at (http://www.bernardo.at)) and holzmann ( www.holzmann-maschinen.at ). Holzmann also distibutes Rojek machines.
Another european manufacturer is Lurem (french) which belongs to the metabo group (like E-B).
Holzkraft (www.holzkraft-maschinen.de (http://www.holzkraft-maschinen.de)) distributes the machines sold as MiniMax in the US.
In my opinion Metabo and E-B are overpriced.

I took a look at the 10" (260mm) j/p sold by Bernardo and was absolutely not impressed by the quality. It also has a weak motor (1,1kW). That said, i believe it could be made to work satisfactorily for a home shop. The price is right.. it can be bought in Germany for about 650 euros. I would rather go for the next higher model, which is also what the machinery dealer i talked to recommended.
A feature i really like is simultaneous lifting of the jointer tables (i.o.w. they stay together, like on the felder machines or the minimax elite 41). This doesn't seem to be available in the lesser machines. Rojek has one model with fixed jointer tables, no need to flip them.
Regards
Timo

[Noel Hegan]

Hi Niels, a few UK sites to give you more information:

www.axminster.co.uk (http://www.axminster.co.uk) (Rojek, EB, Jet etc)

www.rutlands.co.uk (http://www.rutlands.co.uk) (Jet, Fox, DW, EB, Scheppach etc)

www.jet.uk.com (http://www.jet.uk.com)

Rgds

Noel

[Niels J. Larsen]

I just took a look at the specifications for the DeWalt and I would say that it would depend on the the types of projects you intend to build. The width of the jointer is awsome but the general rule is you can only straighten/flatten a piece of wood that is twice the length of the bed. So in this case the bed is 1000mm (about 3ft) so the longest piece of wood you could flatten/end joint would be 2000mm (about 6ft) give or take. So if you are planning on doing something larger then you will be working a bit harder to straighten a board. Of course on this side of the pond we love everything to be made with cast iron so with the fence being made of aluminum I would want to make sure that it did not move when you put pressure on it. But a combo machine would be the way to do... it just does not make sense to have a jointer that is narrower than you planer :) Also what is your budget? That could help narrow the field a bit as well. :D

I'm not sure exactly how long the pieces of wood I'd be jointing would be - but 2 meters (about 6 feet) seems to be close.
Maybe I should ask you guys - how long is long enough (within reason) ?

About my budget: I'd like to stay below $1600, however if it makes enough sense to go higher - then I just might do that.
I want quality - no doubt about it, but I also want to get what I pay for so to speak. E.g. I own a few Festool's and whenever I use them I'm glad I bought such good tools, because I simply hate to use a tool that's just not working properly.

/Niels

[Niels J. Larsen]

<snip>I took a look at the 10" (260mm) j/p sold by Bernardo and was absolutely not impressed by the quality. It also has a weak motor (1,1kW). That said, i believe it could be made to work satisfactorily for a home shop. The price is right.. it can be bought in Germany for about 650 euros. I would rather go for the next higher model, which is also what the machinery dealer i talked to recommended.
<snip>
Timo

Hi Timo,

Where did you find the prices ?
Do you have any links to a price-runner website (Preisvergleich I believe it's called in German) for woodworking machines etc. ?

Thanks!

/Niels

[Timo Christ]

Niels,
price for this small j/p can be found on the well known auction site (.de), with the holzmann label on it (seller: winter holztechnik). Some also sell it without any labels. Bernardo list price is about 800 euro. Bela sells the same machine for 1000.
For 1700 euro (haggle a bit, maybe 1500 euro) you can get the significantly better 320mm version of this import machine (rumours say it's from Bulgaria, but it might be from China as well). But now you are already close to the Hammer at 2000 euro. ....
it is an endless story!
i started looking for a bandsaw in february, and now i am almost finished......
I don't think there is a price-runner website for WW machines.

How long is long enough? i would say 1500mm is good, IOW a 320mm wide machine.
Festool-like quality? check out felder.
we will still be here when you recover from sticker shock :D...

Timo

[Timo Christ]

I just found that Jet has a new J/P out: JPT310. It's not on the US website. Looks like a nice unit, and both tables fold up connected together. 3HP motor (2,2kW). it should sell for about 1800€
The Scheppach 3200ci units are also in this price range, only the outfeed table folds, and straight. 3kW!
Can you tell i'm looking for one, too? have to check out the local used machinery dealer as well.

[Niels J. Larsen]

I've looked at Rojek, Hammer, Bernardo, Elektra Beckup, Sheppach and Holzmann (the Holzkraft are simply way too expensive).

Of those I'm probably in favor of either Hammer, Rojek or the Bernardo as they have the best specs (in my mind - without really knowing anything about it :) )

Things I've considered:

- Cutter diameter (Rojek leads here - Hammer is not specified)
I read in a post here that the bigger diameter, the more inertia the cutter will have and thus the less stress on the motor.

- Thicknesser capacity (height) (Rojek and Bernardo are equal here - Hammer a tiny bit less)
I'm not exactly sure when I would be thicknessing something which is more than 200mm thick (about 8"), but I guess "the more the merrier" applies here ?

- Table length (Bernardo leads here)
As you've stated earlier in this thread - the longer the table - the longer the stock (to be jointed).

- Quality
This is where I'm stuck...
So, which is best - Hammer, Rojek or Bernardo - or something completely different ?
Models I've looked at for this comparison:

Rojek MSP310M - approx. 2250 euro
Hammer A3 31 - 1999 euro
Bernardo ADM 320 - 1699 euro

Actually after reading through a number of posts here, I think I would be VERY happy if I bought one with a TERSA head (or similar).
The Hammer looks like they use a similar self-invented head design.
If I want a Rojek with a Tersa head, I need the MSP315 which is about 3245 euro.
If I choose Bernardo - it's their FS32 which is 2299 euro.

So - more help appreciated :D

P.S. Thanks a bunch so far!

/Niels

[Jim Becker]

The Tersa head is compelling, Niels. It's one of the things I love about my J/P.

[Timo Christ]

Tersa blades are more expensive in the long run compared to resharpenable, manually set blades. I'm not sure if carbide tersa blades are available.
Tersa blades are still cheaper than the Felder system blades.

I looked at the Bernardo ADM320 at a dealer's showroom and he demonstrated the machine briefly. It seems to run fine, little vibration and not too loud.
I would expect Hammer and Rojek to provide better manufacturing quality (-control) than Bernardo.
Scheppach is no longer in the race? HMS3200CI is about 1850 euro and has some nice features like rubberized feed rollers, 4-post thicknesser table, side-mounted jointer fence (saves space, Hammer also has this feature).
I also like tables which flip back, and the Bernardo's flip towards the front.

What about a used unit?

BTW, The Holzkraft ADH FS30Smart is 3000€ list, and it has tersa blades. So, it still competes favourably with Rojek

Where did you see the FS32 at 2300 euro??

[Niels J. Larsen]

Tersa blades are more expensive in the long run compared to resharpenable, manually set blades.
How much use can I expect to get from Tersa blades and how much from resharpanable ones ?
The reason why I'd like Tersa blades is the fact that it's so easy to adjust (or so I've read here). The resharpanable ones sound to take up a LOT more time...



<SNIP>
Scheppach is no longer in the race? HMS3200CI is about 1850 euro and has some nice features like rubberized feed rollers, 4-post thicknesser table, side-mounted jointer fence (saves space, Hammer also has this feature).
<SNIP>

Hmm, I'm not sure. I've just seen VERY cheap miter saws, etc. in the local shops and was not at all impressed. Maybe that's why Sheppach in my mind equals bad quality.
Do you have experience with their equipment and if so where do you think they're positioned quality-wise relative to Hammer and Rojek ?



What about a used unit?

I'm often searching the databases over used equipment here in Denmark (I want to see it prior to purchasing...), but either it's cheap machines which won't fill my needs, old machines of considerable sizes that needs major refurbishing or used professional machines way out of my price range.



BTW, The Holzkraft ADH FS30Smart is 3000€ list, and it has tersa blades. So, it still competes favourably with Rojek

Hmm, I might think once more about that one... :)



Where did you see the FS32 at 2300 euro??
I did a simple search and found this:

http://www.mercateo.com/kw/bernardo(20)320/bernardo_320.html

/Niels

[Jim Becker]

Tersa knives are not "inexpensive", but the are also double-sided, require zero adjustment (time costs!) and are available in several different formulas so you can suit the knives to the work. I have found that even the "chrome" knives, which are the least expensive, last a long time even though they are best suited to softwoods which I rarely use. I'll be moving to the M2 knives when I run out of the chrome knives that came with my J/P, but I only recently installed the second set of the two I have. As a part-time hobbiest...they last a long time! BTW, changing the Tersas takes about...three minutes...if you concentrate. But you really have to be careful...the are sharp!!

[Timo Christ]

Niels,

the FS32 price is without tax..
Hammer A3 31 list price with tax is 2300 euro, as well.
I know many Scheppach products took a nose dive quality wise, but i think it's not true for the jointer/planers. I will interview my machinery dealer tomorrow. I know someone with an older j/p by Scheppach and he's quite happy (although the machine doesn't have cast tables). I guess Hammer and Rojek are better quality, but also more expensive.
I changed blades on my cousin's 24" machine once and was done in about 30min. For my shop i expect one to two blade changes per year (hss blades). I expect at least 20 sharpenings. For my machine, i don't want Tersa. time is cheap for a hobbieist like me.
Maybe a grey import of Rojek from the Czech republic would make it more affordable..?

[Ian Barley]

How much use can I expect to get from Tersa blades and how much from resharpanable ones ?
The reason why I'd like Tersa blades is the fact that it's so easy to adjust (or so I've read here). The resharpanable ones sound to take up a LOT more time...
/Niels
Tersa blades use a harder grade of carbide as they don't have to be joined onto a steel substrate. They are more expensive but generally last longer. They are great if you can afford them or if time is money. Otherwise, for a hobbyist, a set of standard type TCT blades will last for absolutely ages between changes. And depending on the machine, changing isn't that much of a chore. My thicknesser comes with magnetic setting jig and changing 4 460mm blades takes me about 10 minutes. If you are concerned about setting blades try and get a machine with a magnetic setting jig included.


... Maybe that's why Sheppach in my mind equals bad quality.
Do you have experience with their equipment and if so where do you think they're positioned quality-wise relative to Hammer and Rojek ?
/Niels
Scheppach stuff is not bad. It is not in the same duty cycle as Hammer or Rojek being aimed more at the hobbyist/craft market. In simple terms this means that it is not designed to work all day every day. That said, if that is where you are their machines are well worth a good look. Try and find a woodwork show that you can get to so that you can see some of these machines in action.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Niels,

the FS32 price is without tax..
Hammer A3 31 list price with tax is 2300 euro, as well.

Oops, I see that now - I only looked at the price from the overview - I didn't look at the details for the each product. Sorry :o



Maybe a grey import of Rojek from the Czech republic would make it more affordable..?
Do you have any sources, links etc. ? :D

/Niels

[Brian Jarnell]

Worth a look at Sheppach's under and over.