Pike Washita! (...and Rust Stain Removal?)

[Luke Dupont]

I tracked one down on ebay!
(Thanks/Credit to David W for helping me to identify it before bidding!)

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As you can see, it was (and still kind of is) in pretty rough shape.

It's a little under 2" wide and 7" long. I'm pretty sure it's a genuine Pike Washita because I found a partially intact sticker on the end that reads "Pike... SOFT, fast cutting grit" as Washitas came in both soft/coarse and hard/fine varieties. It performs like a slightly superior Soft Arkansas, with a different feel. It feels less "glassy," cuts a little faster, and seems to give me a better edge than I get with a Soft Ark.

It seems to prefer very thin oil, and even seems to work okay with water. Tried slurrying it with a diamond stone and using it with water as is often done with Jnats, and that seemed to work quite well. But I switched back to oil, which I tend to prefer.

Here's how it looks after I boiled it for about 30 minutes in soapy water and soaked it in alcohol over night:

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As you can see, I flattened it and removed most of the old oil/grease, but there are still some ugly brown stains on the top.

I'm guessing this is rust? Any tips on how to remove it?

WD-40 and scrubbing didn't do anything. Nor did removing quite a bit of stone in the flattening process (so, maybe it's not rust?).

I thought about soaking it in vinegar, but I don't know if this might etch or damage the stone, or if there are better alternatives.

[Mel Fulks]

Luke, I think that patterning might just be natural mottling. That indicates a finer grit stone. I recently soaked a washita in xylene to clean it ,that worked pretty well. Some report good results from Simple Green.

[Luke Dupont]

Luke, I think that patterning might just be natural mottling. That indicates a finer grit stone. I recently soaked a washita in xylene to clean it ,that worked pretty well. Some report good results from Simple Green.

Ah, you suppose it's natural?

If it indicates a finer stone, that would seem to contradict the label I found on the end. But then, as I said, it cuts a little bit faster than my soft arks, but it's not a night-and-day difference as some have reported. It's definitely softer and has more bite though, kind of feels like something between a fine india and an arkansas.

It does leave a fine edge, though. Not as fine as a hard white or true hard arkansas, but maybe around 2500-3000 grit. It's tough to remove the burr completely on the stone, though, so in my test runs I did finish up on a plain leather strop.

I might try the simple green or xylene! I saw xylene mentioned in an old book that came up in a google search on soaking stones (The Practical Mechanic/Machinist, I think?) but didn't know if such a substance was still to be found.

[Luke Dupont]

Oh, one more curious thing about this stone:

Its the surfaces aren't cut perfectly square/parallel. In fact, a few of them are pretty far out of square, and it seems to have been cut that way originally.

Might make making a fitted box for it a bit difficult.

[Mel Fulks]

Pic 3 looks like a mottled stone, but some of the other pics do look like an unmottled dirty Washita. I don't know if it's possible for the two sides to be different. Be careful if you use the xylene,read the label!

[Stewie Simpson]

Luke; at 2500 to 3000 grit wouldn't you class that Pike stone of yours as being an intermediate honing stone, requiring the need for finer grit stones to work that wire edge loose, before stropping.

Stewie;

[Stew Denton]

Luke,

Xylenes can be found at Ace hardware stores, or it could be found their fairly recently, and other hardware stores or paint stores may also have it. Xylenes is primarily a mixture of the three xylene isomers (compounds with the same chemical formula but different structures.) It is higher boiling than is toluene but in the same chemical family, and it should work well to help soak the oil out of such a stone as yours, because the xylenes are all aromatic compounds and have very high solvency properties. Thus it is good at dissolving fairly high boiling viscose oils. There are at other solvents which do not do as well.

I would not use acidic acid to try to soak out the stains. The stains may or may not be rust based. If, as mentioned as a possibility above, they are actually part of the natural color of the stone there is no point in trying to get them out. I have never looked into the mineral composition of Arkansas stones, but if there are any tiny crystals of things like calcium carbonate or magnesium hydroxide present as part of the stone, the acidic acid will dissolve those crystals. Also, if the stone is somewhat porous, the stone will absorb some of the acid, and the acid remaining in the stone will be a source of potential rusting of plane irons etc., in the future.

There are things that can clean out rust that don't have the concerns that acetic acid have for this use. I don't know whether they are available to consumers, however. There may also be commercial rust removers available, that are based on some of these same compounds. I don't keep up with that kind of thing, but again, I would not use any of the commercial acid based rust removers such as Navy Jelly for example, which is phosphoric acid based.

If I HAD to try to get out the color, which may or may not be rust based, I would likely try something that is based on a non-acid type of chemistry such as something based on EDTA, or some other chelant. (Pardon my spelling.)

Again, if the brown color is not a problem, I would leave it alone. A lot of the things you can try will soak into the stone and then be the berries to try to soak out of the stone. This includes many acid base cleaners and even things like EDTA based cleaners.

This is not the case with xylenes, however, because if you place the stone in the hot sun for a while the xylenes will evaporate away. This is why it is best to soak the stone in the xylenes for a while, then rinse off the stone with more of the xylenes and place it in fresh solvent to soak for a few more hours, and repeat. It does not take a large volume of solvent each time, just enough to cover the stone a bit. Each solvent wash should be followed by a rinse with a small portion of fresh and clean solvent to remove the oil that is dissolved in the solvent which is still in the xylenes on the stone.

You might also want to use a natural bristle brush to scrub the stone with that is soaking in the xylenes, the idea being similar to dry cleaning, the solvent loosens up dirt and crud that sticks to the stone due to the oil that used to be in the stone. Scrubbing the stone with a bristle brush followed by solvent rinsing will get a lot of the crud off. If you do this, be sure to use some chemical resistant gloves, and don't breathe the vapors.

Stes

[Luke Dupont]

Luke; at 2500 to 3000 grit wouldn't you class that Pike stone of yours as being an intermediate honing stone, requiring the need for finer grit stones to work that wire edge loose, before stropping.

Stewie;

Well, "grit" is a bit of a misnomer being that it's a natural stone.

In terms of speed, it cuts between a soft ark and fine india, and in terms of finish, between a soft and "hard white" ark.

It's a good all-around/singular stone, if you are just going to use one stone, because it produces an edge such that you can get off of most middle stones, whilst cutting pretty quickly for a natural stone. While it is a bit tricky to remove the wire edge just on the stone, you definitely can do it with some practice and finesse, and a leather strop makes it easy enough.

I will probably normally finish either on a loaded strop or a finish stone, but you get a level of sharpness sufficient to pare or smooth with just with the one stone.

But then, I'm even known to end on a fine India > strop, so I can be a bit extreme.

[Stewie Simpson]

If your not wearing the appropriate skin, eye and respiratory protection, Xylene is fairly toxic stuff to handle. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/

[Luke Dupont]

Luke,

Xylenes can be found at Ace hardware stores, or it could be found their fairly recently. Xylenes is primarily a mixture of the three xylene isomers (compounds with the same chemical formula but different structures.) It is higher boiling than is toluene but in the same chemical family, and it should work well to help soak the oil out of such a stone as yours, because the xylenes are all aromatic compounds and have very high solvency properties. Thus it is good at dissolving fairly high boiling viscose oils. There are at other solvents which do not do as well.

I would not use acidic acid to try to soak out the stains. The stains may or may not be rust based. If, as mentioned as a possibility above, they are actually part of the natural color of the stone there is no point in trying to get them out. I have never looked into the mineral composition of Arkansas stones, but if there are any tiny crystals of things like calcium carbonate or magnesium hydroxide present as part of the stone, the acidic acid will dissolve those crystals. Also, is the stone is somewhat porous, the stone will absorb some of the acid, which then will be a source of potential rusting of irons in the future.

There are things that can clean out rust that don't have the concerns that acetic acid have for this use. I don't know whether they are available to consumers, however. There may also be commercial rust removers available, that are based on some of these same compounds. I don't keep up with that kind of thing, but I would not use any of the commercial rust removers such as Navy Jelly for example, which is phosphoric acid based.

If I had to try to get out the color, which may or may not be rust based, I would likely try something that is based on a non-acid type of chemistry such as something based on EDTA, or some other chelant. (Pardon my spelling.)

Again, if the brown color is not a problem, I would leave it alone. A lot of the things you can try will soak into the stone and then be the berries to try to soak out of the stone. This includes many acid base cleaners and even things like EDTA based cleaners.

This is not the case with xylenes, however, because if you place the stone in the hot sun for a while the xylenes will evaporate away. This is why it is best to soak the stone in the xylenes for a while, then rinse off the stone with more of the xylenes and place it in fresh solvent to soak for a few more hours. Each solvent wash should be followed by a rinse with a small portion of fresh and clean solvent to remove the oil that is dissolved in the solvent which is still in the xylenes.

You might also want to use a natural bristle brush to scrub the stone with that is soaking in the xylenes, the idea being similar to dry cleaning, the solvent loosens up dirt and crud that sticks to the stone due to the oil that used to be in the stone. If you do this, be sure to use some chemical resistant gloves.

Stes

Thanks! That's a lot of excellent information.

I will probably just give xylenes or simple green a shot, and leave it at that. The brown color doesn't *really* matter, I just thought I would try to make the stone look nicer as I was going to make a nice box for it. It definitely looks like it's a century old or so, so a nice, clean, new looking box might look kind of odd ;)

But, function is definitely more important than looks, so I don't want to do anything that might mess it up. I quite like how it cuts!

[Stew Denton]

Hi Luke,

I fiddled around editing my post, above, quite a while in the effort to get it to say exactly what I wanted. (Writing is a battle for me it seems.) When I finally finished and gave up, I noticed that you and Stewie had already responded before I was very happy with the wording. There is not a lot of change of intent, but the later wording is better, so if you are interested, you may want to go back and glace at it again.

Also, Stewie is right to be concerned about the health issues. Most of the aromatic compounds are no bargains health wise. I had gone back in and added a sentence or two on safety concerns before giving up, and then reading the reply from each of you.

Stew

[bridger berdel]

Arks are almost pure silica. Mild acids like vinegar or barkeepers friend will do no damage.

How I de-oil dirty stones: wrap the stone in a bit of rag and put it in a stout freezer grade ziploc baggie. Add mineral spirits to cover. Seal it up for a couple of days, then scrub down with a stiff nylon brush and dish detergent. Repeat if necessary. I've never needed more than two rounds.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have a number of natural stones, including quite a few still with labels, and that looks like a washita to me.

For cleaning, you may want to spray oven cleaner on it and spray off with very hot water. But I wouldn't get to anal anout cleaning-just use it!

[Warren Mickley]

Luke; at 2500 to 3000 grit wouldn't you class that Pike stone of yours as being an intermediate honing stone, requiring the need for finer grit stones to work that wire edge loose, before stropping.

Stewie;

A Washita stone and a clean strop will give quite a fine edge.

Arkansas stones can easily withstand strong acids, alkali, detergents and strong oxidizing agents. Hydrofluoric acid will dissolve silica.

[Prashun Patel]

Due respect to Stew, we have eliminated the use of xylenes (when practical) in my industry as a solvent. It just has too many toxicity concerns. This was before my time, so I can't speak first hand about it, but I would do more careful research before experimenting with that.

If the stains are oil and grease, you will do best using a hydrocarbon based solvent like mineral spirits or naphtha.

If the stains are rust, then I do not believe they will solubilize in such solvents; they may abrade away, and the above solvents would only be there as lubricants to avoid clogging of whatever you're rubbing with.

The only effective chemical treatments I've found for rust is some kind of light acid like vinegar or citric or phosphoric acid. I am not saying this is advisable on a natural stone, as I suspect it would be prone to pitting.

For my money, I would abrade as much as I could, and if it still sharpens properly, I would learn to love the mottling.

[Barney Markunas]

At the risk of looking like the south end of a northbound horse, why worry about this? It is a sharpening stone, not the Hope diamond. i guess if you are a collector and don't plan to use it, then disregard my comment but if this is a user, don't worry, be happy. Flatten it if it is dished; clean it if it is clogged; and get back to woodworking.

There are good reasons that most industries are moving away from organic solvents like xylenes. Why risk potential exposure when you don't need to? Dish washing liquids like Dawn work really, really well on oils and greases. I've not tried it but I seem to recall a thread where someone had really impressive results by running an old oilstone through the heavy duty cycle in his dishwasher when his wife wasn't home.

[Patrick Chase]

Well, "grit" is a bit of a misnomer being that it's a natural stone.

Oh please, not that myth again.

Natural stones have "grit" and "binder" just like synthetic ones. Your Washita contains a high percentage of tiny silicate (quartz) crystals. Those are the grit. They're held together by carbonate IIRC. That's the binder. The "grit" of the stone is basically determined by the size of the quartz crystals, just as the grit of a synthetic stone is determined by the size of its abrasive particles.

There is absolutely nothing magical about natural stones in any of these respects. The grit is a bit soft (quartz is ~1000 Vickers vs. 1400-1800 for the Alumina and Alumina-Ceramics in India, Spyderco, and most waterstones and ~2250 for SiC as in Crystolon and some other waterstones) and the binder is unusually hard, but that's really all there is to it.

JNats are basically the same thing, except the silicate is held together by clay, which is a much softer binder.

[Mel Fulks]

The asymetrical shape of the stone ,I think, probably means an early date. Much of the stone mining and shaping was done by hand then. It's possible that the oil used on the stone was USED. I would clean it some but remove the label first to preserve it. It's definately a good find ,enjoy!

[Pat Barry]

Pardon my total ignorance but is this a "waterstone" or an "oilstone"? If its an oilstone then why are you using water? If its a waterstone then why are you using oil? To me it seems like the stone was possibly miss used if in fact it is loaded with oil residue. On the other hand, I don't think that's rust you are seeing and should therefore cease and desist with attempts to remove the rust.

[Luke Dupont]

Oh please, not that myth again.

Natural stones have "grit" and "binder" just like synthetic ones. Your Washita contains a high percentage of tiny silicate (quartz) crystals. Those are the grit. They're held together by carbonate IIRC. That's the binder. The "grit" of the stone is basically determined by the size of the quartz crystals, just as the grit of a synthetic stone is determined by the size of its abrasive particles.

There is absolutely nothing magical about natural stones in any of these respects. The grit is a bit soft (quartz is ~1000 Vickers vs. 1400-2000 for the Alumina and Alumina-Ceramics in India, Spyerco, and most waterstones) and the binder is unusually hard, but that's really all there is to it.

JNats are basically the same thing, except the silicate is held together by clay, which is a much softer binder.

Would you not say that the shape of the particles and the way that they are bound have quite an effect on the qualities of a given stone? A misreading of your post might imply, to some readers, that "grit is grit and all stones are the same in this regard," which is not what I think you intend to argue, but...

Yes, I realize (and, even in the last post that you criticized on this point, explicitly stated and recognized that my terminology is technically false) that natural stone has structure and will tend to break down in a certain way / to a certain level of "grit".

But, from a user's stand point, the technical differences aside:

An Arkansas, for instance, will act more or less as if it were one solid, consistent material. Yes, they will release grit, but the effect is hardly noticeable, and they will not release grit quickly enough to expose new, unworn cutting surfaces long enough to make any kind of difference in cutting performance. This is less true of a Washita (I think?), and less true of JNats, which will expose more fresh grit, but still nothing like most synthetics which are optimized for speed.

But grit IS misleading, and that is because grit alone is not a sufficient indicator of the quality of edge a stone will produce. Natural Arkansas stones are technically between 1000 and 2500 "grit" (if Dan's and other's numbers that I've seen are accurate) but will leave a much finer edge than many synthetics of equal grit because the grit itself is less aggressive / smoother / leaves shallower scratches. Now, I'm not an expert on stones, industrial abrasives, or any of that, but this is my intuitive, common-sense understanding and my (and other's) experience and observation. My explanation for why that is may be lacking or technically incorrect, but to call the observation itself BS is also incorrect. Unless you're going to argue that a Arkansas gives an edge no better than a 2500 waterstone, which I think we can all agree is not the case (unless either I'm missing something in the data I'm basing this argument on, or you have some really interesting data supported by solid reasoning that it isn't, either of which I would find really interesting).

Sometimes I (and others) say things that are not technically entirely correct, either out of ignorance, or knowingly so, in order to communicate bigger, more general truths / impressions. We can't all be the expert on everything, and technical data alone can often be misleading if not taken into proper context, and properly interpreted, with all variables and their relations accounted for.

I always enjoy learning, and find your posts very informative. But rarely are they ever in conflict with the actual point that I (or others) were attempting to make, and sometimes just come off as minor nit-picking. There's nothing wrong with that, and I don't mean that as criticism, per say. I'm just identifying something that I see as a regular source of error or tension in communication.

For the record, I don't believe in "magic."

Nor do I believe that natural stones inherently "better" in any way to synthetics. But I do believe they are different in ways that are often not measured or properly understood/defined, either by those who use them, or those who prefer synthetics.

[Luke Dupont]

At the risk of looking like the south end of a northbound horse, why worry about this? It is a sharpening stone, not the Hope diamond. i guess if you are a collector and don't plan to use it, then disregard my comment but if this is a user, don't worry, be happy. Flatten it if it is dished; clean it if it is clogged; and get back to woodworking.

There are good reasons that most industries are moving away from organic solvents like xylenes. Why risk potential exposure when you don't need to? Dish washing liquids like Dawn work really, really well on oils and greases. I've not tried it but I seem to recall a thread where someone had really impressive results by running an old oilstone through the heavy duty cycle in his dishwasher when his wife wasn't home.

Nah, you guys are right. The spots really don't matter.

And if it's just natural coloring of the stone, I'm only making a fool of myself (not that I don't do that enough already :D)

I just enjoy making old stuff look new.

I've been playing around with the stone some more and comparing it directly to my soft arks, and it cuts great. Definitely noticeably faster. So, it's definitely going to be a user and not just a neat paper weight. I have a bit of a dislike for collectors who buy up all of the great tools and sit around doing nothing with them :P

[Luke Dupont]

Pardon my total ignorance but is this a "waterstone" or an "oilstone"? If its an oilstone then why are you using water? If its a waterstone then why are you using oil? To me it seems like the stone was possibly miss used if in fact it is loaded with oil residue. On the other hand, I don't think that's rust you are seeing and should therefore cease and desist with attempts to remove the rust.

It can be used as either, but is usually used as an oil-stone.

In a book dating to the late 1800's that I was referencing, it makes mention that "most trades have switched over to oil from water, finding it superior" in regards to all of the stones we generally think of as "oil stones" today. Some of the more porous oilstones definitely do prefer oil to water though -- I've found that some Arks, for instance, soak up water far too quickly for my liking.

I was able to use it with water because I boiled it with soap and removed all of the oil. I was flattening it with a diamond plate and water, making water-stone-slurries and decided out of curiosity to try sharpening with the slurry I created. I've since used it with oil, as it is generally but not necessarily used, so it would have to be cleaned again if I wanted to switch back to water.

But yeah. Long story short: either work.

[Mike Brady]

In the knife and razor sharpening circles, it is common to clean old oilstones in a dishwasher and then use them with either water or totally dry. Some choose to re-oil them and use them that way. Don't use vegetable oil; only a mineral oil. Veg oil will eventually turn gummy or harden. I just cleaned and re-oiled my Crystalon and India stones.

[Warren Mickley]

Oh please, not that myth again.

Natural stones have "grit" and "binder" just like synthetic ones. Your Washita contains a high percentage of tiny silicate (quartz) crystals. Those are the grit. They're held together by carbonate IIRC. That's the binder. The "grit" of the stone is basically determined by the size of the quartz crystals, just as the grit of a synthetic stone is determined by the size of its abrasive particles.


Quartz crystals held together with a binder of carbonate??? You are talking about sandstone, not Arkansas stone. Ignorance and arrogance make a bad combination.

[Patrick Chase]

Quartz crystals held together with a binder of carbonate??? You are talking about sandstone, not Arkansas stone. Ignorance and arrogance make a bad combination.

So then what binds the individual quartz crystals in novaculite?

I know for a fact that novaculite contains mainly quartz (from diatoms) and some carbonate. The reason I said "IIRC" (and thereby acknowledged uncertainty) in my post about carbonate being the binder is because I couldn't remember if there was a third constituent that performed that function. I looked after you posted your reply and I can't find a definitive source either way on that point.

[Warren Mickley]

Arkansas stones are partly metamorphosed. The crystals are sort of melted together. The binder model does not really apply. Sandstone has quartz crystals with a binder.

[Stewie Simpson]

Luke raises some valid points with natural stones. They are graded differently to man-made stones.

http://www.danswhetstone.com/stone_grades_101.htm


Does Dan's Arkansas Whetstones Meet Federal Standards?
Although there may be only a slight difference in grain size from one grade to another, the effective abrasiveness of each grade is related to the density, or compactness, of the individual, bladed quartz crystals that compose Novaculite. The U.S. government measures the specific gravity of Novaculite and assigns density ranges for the Soft and Hard classifications. Dan's Whetstone Company, Inc., follows these standards for Soft and Hard stones. We also further define Hard grade Novaculite into the True Hard, Black, and Translucent categories.




Density Standards



Soft Arkansas
Hard Arkansas
True Hard Arkansas
....Colored Translucent
....Translucent
....Black Arkansas

2.20-2.30
2.30-2.45
2.50 +
2.50 +
2.50 +
2.50 +

Specific Gravity
Specific Gravity
Specific Gravity
Specific Gravity
Specific Gravity
Specific Gravity




https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Difference-in-Sharpening-Stone-Materials-W51.aspx


The most traditional oil stones are natural stones made from Novaculite. These natural stones are quarried in Arkansas and processed to make what we call Arkansas Stones. These stones are separated into different grades related to the density and the finish a stone produces on a blade.

[Prashun Patel]

Keep all the personal jabs out of this forum. Enough is enough. Not only do you guys pick on each other again and again, you do it in long posts that are tricky to edit. Just stop it!

i have said it a million times. Putting people down here makes the putter look petty.

I send enough pms and gentle private reminders. Not this time.

Cut it out!

[Stewie Simpson]

Using oil on waterstones and water on oilstones ??????????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCo1_fozD0

[Luke Dupont]

Using oil on waterstones and water on oilstones ??????????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCo1_fozD0

That's a great video. Actually, all of his videos seem to be really good. Thanks for sharing!