New Machine

[Steven Pinho]

Hey guys, I'm new to engraving and I was looking to purchase my first machine. I wanted something reliable with good support and a good name. these are the two I'm looking at.
Does anyone have an experience with either of them? Also feel free to recommend me to something else.

Full Spectrum H Series
https://fslaser.com/Product/Hobby


BOSS LS-1416
https://www.bosslaser.com/boss-ls-1416.html#.V8_4QE0rLmE

Thanks

[gary l roberts]

Welcome,
I would recommend you do a search here on machines. The topic is well covered. Chines vs Western, company purchase vs self import, pros and cons of all types and styles. Mostly, it will depend on your use and projected growth, size and power.

[Bill George]

Ditto, That question or which Chinese laser gets asked at least once a week on here. Followed by, I got this machine off eBay and ...... Do some searching.

[Bert Kemp]

Doing a search will tell you to stay away from full spectrum far far away. Thunder is OK you might also look at Rabbit Laser very good machines good support.

[Art Mann]

Is it possible that Full Spectrum may have improved their hardware and customer service since they earned the bad reputation you hear so much about? They are currently being sold by Rockler and I can't imagine they would market a machine with such poor reliability and no customer support.

[David Somers]

Art, What I am hearing from a number of Rockler Managers in our area (WA and OR) is that the machines are a headache. The users I talk with that have bought from Rockler seem to feel the same way. They may or may not work out of the box, and support has been ..... difficult?

[Bert Kemp]

Heres what you do email FSL and ask them a direct question
" how long is your 40 watt tube" I've done this and they won't tell me they give me the run around.
see what they tell you keep the email or take a screen shot of their reply.
if you want to see the emails they sent me pm me you email and I'll forward them to you

[David Somers]

Steven,

Sorry.....to answer your first post directly. Between FSL and Boss I would pick Boss without question. If you want more folks to check out, look at Rabbit Laser USA, and perhaps Automation Technologies (who I think is still a sponsor of Sawmill Creek?) Avoid anything on Ebay. If you want to check out direct from China imports you might look at Bodor, Ray Fine Technology LTD and Shenhui. (I have a Ray Fine machine in the interest of full disclosure. <grin>)

Dave

[Art Mann]

I think I will just wait until I have the money to buy a name brand. I am afraid that any company that will not advertise prices with their machinery knows there will be sticker shock and is hoping to get you convinced of their brand before telling you the price. I don't particularly like that strategy.

[Bert Kemp]

Rabbit Laser, Boss Laser and Auto tech list there prices right up front, I have heard Auto tech has had some support problems. You might also inquire if any of these companies have a demo floor model they will give you a good discount on.


I think I will just wait until I have the money to buy a name brand. I am afraid that any company that will not advertise prices with their machinery knows there will be sticker shock and is hoping to get you convinced of their brand before telling you the price. I don't particularly like that strategy.

[Paul Phillips]

Art, FWIW, non of the name brands advertise their prices either, you have to go through a local sales rep for a price quote.

[John Lifer]

I'm searching for a machine also. I ruled out FS due to the comments here and elsewhere. They are supposedly building new machine, but NOTHING on their website.
I really hadn't looked close at BOSS, but it looks like a pretty good machine. If I were to buy, with the options you probably need, it is about $5600. And I guess that is plus shipment. I'm looking at sub $4K for chinese machine from Ray Fine that is a LOT bigger. Rabbit is about the same cost as Boss, Not saying buy Chinese, I'd rather go American also..... Buy Boss if you are only looking at those two.

[Keith Downing]

I have a Boss laser (about 8 months now), I really enjoy it and I have pretty much nothing but good things to say about the company. I know many here also love rabbit. If it were me, I'd consider both. Deciding factors being: who is closer to you, who will give you a better price, and who has what you need in stock.

Good luck with your search.

[Keith Winter]

Boss has a better reputation but they have been around only a few years. FSL has a bad rep as others said. Rabbit has been stateside for a long time. There is also automation tech stateside. If you want to import, that brings up and entirely different list of vendors. Keep in mind if you import you better be handy, support can be a bit lacking. Not a reason not to import but something to be aware of.

[Andrew Holloway]

"reliable with good support and a good name" Full Spectrum doesn't tick any of those boxes, especially their hobby machines.

Looks like your budget is around $4k, but go a get a demo of some western machines if you can, wont cost you anything. Trotec, Universal and Epilog are the big 3. They are all reliable, have good support and a good name, but a price tag to match.

[Glen Monaghan]

Or do you due diligence and patiently search for a good used Trotec, Epilog or Universal. I've bought two good Epilogs, each for what you are budgeting, one with a six month old tube and the other with a Coherent tube that lasted four years before I replaced it (it was 10 years old at that point) with a slightly higher power, brand new Epilog tube for something like $2200 or 2300. Also replaced one servo motor on the older machine. Granted, you could replace a glass tube every year for several years for what that replacement cost me, but I don't have to deal with trying to obtain an unbroken replacement tube, tanks of cooling water, algae, slow engraving speeds, axis slop, slipping/stuttering stepper motors, Chinglish manuals, lengthy Chinese holidays when trying to get an answer or spare parts, driving and wiring grounding rods, exporting intermediate files from CD to import into a separate, brain challenged, graphics program required to drive the laser, and the various other issues that tend to clog up the Chinese machine posts around here. I make enough problems for myself, & don't need our Eastern friends to help me with that! Okay, let the Marines howl now... ;^)

[Bert Kemp]

gessh Glen ooo raaaa

[John Lifer]

Ok, I'll Hi-Jack another thread, (but maybe the OP will get some use out of you guys answers).

If I were looking at a used machine, Say a Trotec or Epilog, US machine only, {let's leave the Chinese or Chinese derivatives out of this discussion}, what should I use to determine just what a FAIR and REASONABLE price for this machine to be? a percentage of original price? age? total time used? Obviously age is consideration on these machines, but so is life of tube.

[Glen Monaghan]

A fair and reasonable price is whatever you are willing to pay and the seller is willing to accept, that you both feel good about. There is no answer in the back of a book on how different people will value something...

[Keith Downing]

Ok, I'll Hi-Jack another thread, (but maybe the OP will get some use out of you guys answers).

If I were looking at a used machine, Say a Trotec or Epilog, US machine only, {let's leave the Chinese or Chinese derivatives out of this discussion}, what should I use to determine just what a FAIR and REASONABLE price for this machine to be? a percentage of original price? age? total time used? Obviously age is consideration on these machines, but so is life of tube.

Definitely a MAJOR thread hi-jack. LOL.

But since you asked and I just read a discussion on this yesterday from a few years ago that I thought made a lot of sense, I'll throw it out here.

The general consensus was: Take the price of a new unit, multiply times 85%, then subtract the price of a new tube, new controller, and new power supply. What is left is what would be considered a fair price for the machine.

Of course you could end up not having to replace any of that in the near future. But with a used machine, most people want to be able to price in all of that, and still not be paying as much (or more!) than a new machine.

Now whether you'll be able to find a seller that agrees, who knows.

[Keith Downing]

Definitely a MAJOR thread hi-jack. LOL.

But since you asked and I just read a discussion on this yesterday from a few years ago that I thought made a lot of sense, I'll throw it out here.

The general consensus was: Take the price of a new unit, multiply times 85%, then subtract the price of a new tube, new new controller, and new power supply. What is left is what would be considered a fair to good price for the machine.

Of course you could end up not having to replace any of that in the near future. But with a used machine, most people want to be able to price in all of that, and still not be paying as much (or more!) than a new machine.

Now whether you'll be able to find a seller that agrees, who knows.

So as an example, if a new machine of comparable size and power was $20,000 you'd have:

$20,000 * .85 - tube (we'll say $2,500) - controller (we'll guess $1,500) - power supply (we'll guess $750) = $12,250.

So you wouldn't want to pay more than $12,250. And obviously that would be for a machine that was in good working order with no visible damage or missing components or accessories.

[Glen Monaghan]

85% is an entirely arbitrary number and, IMO, would only be valid for a fairly new Trotec, Epilog, or Universal machine and for better than an entry level machine as well. It's certainly a significantly higher factor than I used when buying my lasers.

Likewise, using the cost to replace the tube is not necessarily valid because a simple recharge may be more than sufficient (it all depends on the tube's age and manufacturer, and what your comfort level and goals are. Deciding whether you should factor in the cost of replacement or only the cost of recharge has to be part of your research and due diligence.

Tacking on the cost of a new power supply and controller card would seem reasonable for a Chinese laser but I don't see that it's justified for a Trotec, Epilog or Universal because they don't have such a history of failure. I'd factor in the cost of belts and bearings and optics before I'd worry about the power supply or controller for those machines.

[Keith Downing]

85% is an entirely arbitrary number and, IMO, would only be valid for a fairly new Trotec, Epilog, or Universal machine and for better than an entry level machine as well. It's certainly a significantly higher factor than I used when buying my lasers.

Likewise, using the cost to replace the tube is not necessarily valid because a simple recharge may be more than sufficient (it all depends on the tube's age and manufacturer, and what your comfort level and goals are. Deciding whether you should factor in the cost of replacement or only the cost of recharge has to be part of your research and due diligence.

Tacking on the cost of a new power supply and controller card would seem reasonable for a Chinese laser but I don't see that it's justified for a Trotec, Epilog or Universal because they don't have such a history of failure. I'd factor in the cost of belts and bearings and optics before I'd worry about the power supply or controller for those machines.

Sure 85% is arbitrary to some extent, but so is virtually everything about evaluating a used machine (unless you were the one using it for the last 5-10 years). However, I think 85% is a good starting point considering what you're giving up (warranty, piece of mind, etc) buying a used machine. Of course as mentioned it can be adjusted based on the look and current state of the machine and accessories, but I wouldn't go much higher than that for a machine out of warranty. And I guess I should add I would discount it even more if the machine is over 8-10 years old.

Anyways, at the end of the day, he asked what formula he could use, and I had just read a discussion about this one in a thread from 2015 that gave these guidelines; and from some of the most respected members here. So I thought I would pass it on.

Also, you said you thought 85% as a starting point was too high, but that you wouldn't subtract the full price of the tube, controller, power supply, etc. So it sounds a lot like you might end up at a very similar valuation in the end. :)

[Keith Winter]

I don't think the power supply or controller applies to us machines either, that's more of a Chinese laser issue. I agree with the concensious it's hard to place a value on a used machine. For me it would all be about condition condition condition. Im not talking about looks so much as how well it appears to have been carried for, and equally important the environment it has been run in. You can usually tell a guy who runs a machine till it breaks and only cleans it when he has to, from a guy who cleans it every day and has a scheduled maintainace plan. A machine in good condition I would take off 10-20% depending on year and then factor in the cost of a tube and divide it by half if the tube is over 3-4 years old. As you cannot expect the seller to take a full discount off the tube if it's running fine, might last a year might last four more.

So if a new US machine costs say $30k a tube recharge was $2.5k and the machine was six years old, on the original tube, and in good condition I might expect to pay $20k at the low end to $24k at the high end. If that tube was say only two years old I might pay a thousand or two more for it. Second factor, I'm talking Trotecs, some of the other machines have more parts that wear down and need replaced over time from what I gather. I might give a little less for those makes in anticipation of some maintainace.

[Kev Williams]

Umm, yes power supply and controller issues apply to ALL makes, models, whether from Austria, France, Taiwan, China, USA. Keep adding to your machine stockpile, and you'll find that out... ;)

Therefore, I wholeheartedly agree with factoring the cost of a new one into the pricing structure Keith posted.

(I currently run 15 machines, and I still have two machines that are dead... guess what's wrong with them? :) )

[Bert Kemp]

Duh Power supply and controller issues maybe:D:eek:


Umm, yes power supply and controller issues apply to ALL makes, models, whether from Austria, France, Taiwan, China, USA. Keep adding to your machine stockpile, and you'll find that out... ;)

Therefore, I wholeheartedly agree with factoring the cost of a new one into the pricing structure Keith posted.

(I currently run 15 machines, and I still have two machines that are dead... guess what's wrong with them? :) ):D

[Glen Monaghan]

I think 85% is a good starting point considering what you're giving up (warranty, piece of mind, etc) buying a used machine. Of course as mentioned it can be adjusted based on the look and current state of the machine and accessories, but I wouldn't go much higher than that for a machine out of warranty. And I guess I should add I would discount it even more if the machine is over 8-10 years old.

This is why I originally said a reasonable and fair price is one that both parties are happy with. You wouldn't go much higher than 85% for a machine out of warranty? And discount it even more if over 8-10 years old? I might like to sell to you, but you probably wouldn't want to sell to me, because I'm saying 85% is too high (for me anyway), period. I was way lower than that for both my Epilogs, and both parties were satisfied with a much lower percentage than 85...


Anyways, at the end of the day, he asked what formula he could use, and I had just read a discussion about this one in a thread from 2015 that gave these guidelines; and from some of the most respected members here. So I thought I would pass it on.

Understood, and I just thought I'd give my point of view that I think that formula's percentage is heavily biased toward the seller, and worries about things that I think don't realistically apply to the OP's scenario (such as the controller board).


Also, you said you thought 85% as a starting point was too high, but that you wouldn't subtract the full price of the tube, controller, power supply, etc. So it sounds a lot like you might end up at a very similar valuation in the end. :) Not even close because we are talking significantly different percentage factors. With due diligence and timing, I was well under 50% discount from as-new prices so no comparison. And what I said about the tube was that you might factor in the less expensive option to recharge rather than replacement for the (metal) tubes, unlike glass tube machines.

[Keith Downing]

This is why I originally said a reasonable and fair price is one that both parties are happy with. You wouldn't go much higher than 85% for a machine out of warranty? And discount it even more if over 8-10 years old? I might like to sell to you, but you probably wouldn't want to sell to me, because I'm saying 85% is too high (for me anyway), period. I was way lower than that for both my Epilogs, and both parties were satisfied with a much lower percentage than 85...

I think we're probably beating a dead horse at this point, but just to clarify: I stated 85% MINUS the full cost of replacing basically every major component on the machine. I was also assuming we were talking about a machine less than 7 or 8 years old (I added that in the later post for clarification I believe). I think in most cases you'd very likely end up right around 50-60% of the price of a new machine with the same specs.

From what I've seen most machines less than 5-8 years old are actually selling for HIGHER than 50% of the original sales price, assuming they've been well cared for.

Ironically, I don't totally buy in I guess, because I went with a Boss for my $8k. I wanted a new machine and something with a warranty on everything for my first purchase.

But, again, this formula (which was laid out by two other members, not taking credit for conceptualizing it!) seems to me like a logical and rational breakdown for someone evaluating a used laser purchase for the first time to work off of. And if they can negotiate a better, price, that's a win too!

[Bill George]

So applying this thinking to purchasing a used car.

So I should factor in a new engine, transmission and ECM and deduct that from the asking price? What car are you going to purchase used at Your pricing schedule? So buy new and have that 20% depreciation of the value as soon as you drive it off the dealers lot.

You can read the horror stories online of people who have purchased new, whatever and problems getting it resolved. So the safe way, is don't buy anything, new or used.

[Keith Winter]

I understand your point but it's not like buying a used car. US made lasers can last 15 years or more without major repairs needing to be made. In fact they are so robust you see companies like ULS that are essentially selling the same machines they did 15 years ago with minor software improvements. Compare a 15 year old car to a new 2017 model. I guarantee they will be wildly different, no so much in lasers as the designs are fairly simple and robust.

I think a better comparison would be a car to a industrial printer. You might expect to get 10-20 percent of the value out of an industrial printer 10-15 years old since they wear out much like a car does. US Lasers do not wear out at the same rate since they are more simple. That is unless you cut dirty stuff with your lasers and/or fail to clean and take care of them, then all bets are off as far as resell value.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I have a speedy 300 here, immaculate condition with a 120 watt RF tube.

It's been sat idle for 9 months as I'm not paying $10,000 to get the tube refilled, somewhere at the back of the works are two smaller epilogs with the same problem.

[Keith Winter]

I have a speedy 300 here, immaculate condition with a 120 watt RF tube.

It's been sat idle for 9 months as I'm not paying $10,000 to get the tube refilled, somewhere at the back of the works are two smaller epilogs with the same problem.

Why so much to get the tube refilled?

[Keith Winter]

Another point factor that is being missed is the difference between needing to sell something, wanting to sell something, and not really caring if you sell something. Glen in your case your buyer either needed the money or wasn't using the machines I would guess? That's the best time to buy something, and the worst time to be the seller. That can also happen in reverse, you sign up a new customer and NEED the more equipment, then you are at the disadvantage as the buyer.

For example I had a machine I wasn't using so I cut the price another 20-30% just to get it out of the way, had I been using it at least a few times a week, I wouldn't have been willing to take such a loss to sell it. Another example, when my wife wanted to change out the bedroom furniture guess what, that bedroom furniture (old equipment) got really really cheap because I needed to get rid of it to make room for the new bedroom furniture (new equipment). Old bedroom furniture wasn't broken or bad, but I needed the space, hence I sold it for next to nothing.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Why so much to get the tube refilled?

The places that do them here are hugely expensive, the machines themselves are also 40% more than they are in the US and for what it does it's not cost effective to bother.

[Rodne Gold]

I have 4 coherents and 4 Synrad sources..with PS's .. the remains of the 10 machines I have literally dumped as repairs werent worthwhile .. I can get 2 decent glass tubed low cost production machines for the price of a single RF tube refurb (also incredibly expensive in SA)

[Keith Winter]

The places that do them here are hugely expensive, the machines themselves are also 40% more than they are in the US and for what it does it's not cost effective to bother.

That's wild aren't they manufactured in the UK?

[Bill George]

So my older ULS which works fine, and I can get the metal RF tube recharged at Evergreen for less than $1,000 is looking better everyday.

[Gary Hair]

That's wild aren't they manufactured in the UK?

Austria - less than 2,000km away! Doesn't make sense that I can get one here at just under 9,000km away for less than they can be found in the UK.

[Glen Monaghan]

Yes, that is what I was referring to by doing due diligence and timing. If you don't plan ahead and decide that you absolutely have to have it now, then you are likely going to have to pay more. However, if you plan ahead, do your homework, actively seek out opportunities, and bide your time, you can get much better deals. I first made contact with my newest laser's seller a year before I purchased it and paid about 60% of his original asking price (and about a fourth of the equivalent new machine's price) when we finally closed the deal, because he wanted it gone and didn't want to market it, consign it, or mess with places like ebay. IIRC, that laser was 4 years old when I got it.

[Keith Winter]

Austria - less than 2,000km away! Doesn't make sense that I can get one here at just under 9,000km away for less than they can be found in the UK.

Austria you're right, crazy it's so expensive in the UK.

[Tony Lenkic]

Bill,

I'm really wondering why no one jumped at the offer you have.
You may look into starting a folder linking it to classified section on SMC. Shoppers may be missing the opportunity.

[Bill George]

Bill,

I'm really wondering why no one jumped at the offer you have.
You may look into starting a folder linking it to classified section on SMC. Shoppers may be missing the opportunity.

Yes, I don't get it, I have it priced down enough that a new Chinese with no USA support is about the same price. I just don't use it much, lost interest and we are probably headed for senior citizen type townhouse or condo in the future.
I have my 3D printer and home project diode laser to keep me occupied. Time to downsize the stuff.
My ad was edited and the price changed lower.