How long of a panel can I glue up without biscuits?

[Chris Lukowski]

I've been reading up on gluing up jointed boards to make panels but one thing I'd like to know is how long of a board can I use before biscuits, dowels, or some other joiner is needed to keep the boards straight once clamped up with pipe clamps and Titebond II glue? This is for a dresser top that's going to be roughly 60" x 20" using hardwood. Can I get away with gluing that with either cauls or F-type clamps vertically on the board edges holding the joints together? The lumber for this part looks to be costly so I'll only get one shot at this, so if you can think of anything else that'll prevent the seams from coming undone that would be helpful.

[Todd Burch]

In the scheme of things, biscuits are a relatively new invention. Lots and lots of "long" panels have been successfully glued up without biscuits. I used to use biscuits, and now I don't so much any more.

When I have a cantankerous glue up with long and imperfectly flat boards, I'll use a full length spline. It's so much easier than biscuits, and you won't get "biscuit undulations" that can happen by sanding the panel when the biscuit glue is still wet when you sand.

Modern glues are pretty strong, and if your moisture content is right and you use best-practice assembly and finishing techniques, you should be fine with no biscuits.

Good luck! (and it's not really luck that causes projects to turn out correctly!)

Todd

[Mike Henderson]

Use cauls to keep the boards aligned. You can use an F clamp on each end if you have alignment problems there but if the boards are straight and you have a caul close to the end you may not need those.

If you absolutely want to use biscuits or dowels, there's no fixed answer to your question. It depends on the boards you're making the panel from.

Mike

[Lee Schierer]

I've never used biscuits and see no need for them. I've glued panels as long as 6 feet without biscuits, dowels or splines using pipe clamps. A lot depends on how flat your boards are. If you have several boards to glue up you can always do them two at a time, which gives you more time to get things aligned before the glue sets up. Then either add one board at a time to the original pair or make several pairs and then glue them together.

[Andy Giddings]

On top of all the good advice above, if you really want to lock the joints in place you can use a glue joint router bit or shaper tool to ensure alignment. And if you want to avoid using a ton of clamps, you can either make or use bow shaped cauls which only need a clamp at either end

[Martin Wasner]

I don't use biscuits at all for making panels. Built a 54" x 102" table last year, nothing but glue holding it together.

[Wade Lippman]

A lot depends on how flat your boards are..

What he said. Biscuits will let you fudge a bit on bad stock, but it is so much better to have flat stock.
If you are talking about joint strength; if a joint is properly made, biscuits contribute nothing. If it is poorly made it will fail whether you use biscuits or not. As you might have guessed, I sold my biscuit cutter years ago as useless.

[Wayne Lomman]

As long as you want. For any laminating joint such as you want to do, the timber should be as straight as possible. Biscuits will help keep the boards alignedwhile you are clamping but that's all. The best joint strength is achieved by gluing fine sawn faces together. This substantially increases the available surace are for glue to adhere to. Cheers

[Bradley Gray]

Nothing about biscuits or dowels makes a glue up straight - only aligns the edges. The past few years I have been using a glue press for large glue-ups. The press(I have a Plano) is a set of 4 way bar clamps mounted so as to keep all the boards in a glue up in the same plane - straight and flat.

[Chris Lukowski]

Thanks for the replies everybody! I don't own a biscuit joiner and after reading this I don't think I will be. As for the material, I haven't decided 100% yet but I think I'll be making the dresser top from 1x6s of black walnut that are S4S prepped by the lumber yard or online seller since I don't have a planer either. I do have a table saw and have read how I can joint with it so that's a plus. Most glue-ups I've seen online use Titebond II glue so I think I'll use that, although I have also heard that Weldbond is good stuff too and more versatile in the things it will glue besides wood. I'll also be getting some 3/4" pipe clamps (probably Rockler brand) since parallel jaw clamps are pretty expensive and I've read that they sometimes can't apply enough pressure to properly clamp hardwoods. I might also take the advice of gluing up one pair at a time and then gluing the two pairs together, as I'll likely need about 4 boards at that size (unless you think I should be using 1x4s instead).

[Mike Henderson]

Look at the Bessey pipe clamps (https://www.amazon.com/Bessey-BPC-H34-4-Inch-Style-Clamp/dp/B0012YNJRO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473216055&sr=8-1&keywords=pipe+clamps). I like the foot that they have. Makes it easier to do glue ups (the clamps don't fall over and you have enough space to turn the handle).

Make sure you go with 3/4" pipe and not 1/2". Galvanized or black pipe both work - make sure they're threaded on both ends.

If you look in the electrical section of Home Depot, you'll find some 3/4" threaded sleeves (they're cheaper than 3/4" plumbing sleeves and they work fine). When you need longer clamps, you can hook two clamps together. So if you buy 5 foot pieces of pipe, with a sleeve you can have a 10 foot section of pipe (your clamping distance will be less because of the space taken by the clamps.)

Any of the Titebond glues are good. The original works fine for indoor projects.

The parallel jaw clamps are plenty strong enough to clamp hardwood. You don't have to crush the wood when you clamp up a panel.

Mike

[Robert Engel]

Just finished gluing up a 22x54 top for a dresser. One board had a bit of a bow so after searching for my biscuit machine and cutting the slots, I ended up taking all the biscuits out and just gluing it up. I was able to tweak the board easily and clamp it up. It was a reminder how unnecessary biscuits are.

So the question has been answered but I would like to add one comment.

Generally I think 4/4 or 5/4 rough stock is best for tops. I start by skip planing to reveal grain and select boards. I do not face joint them. Glue panels up thick means I don't fret too much about slight discrepancies in the joints because I know I will be rough planing to flatten the panel anyway. Starting with 5/4 material gives you plenty of room for that.

In contrast, surfaced lumber is often 13/16 which barely leaves enough material for sanding. Therefore, you must search for nearly perfect boards and IME you that can be quite a challenge. Also IME many times I encounter a desirable board with interesting grain but will have a twist, bow or cup. It would be usable as a 5/4 but not as a surfaced board.

If you already have good material, that's great I just thought I would throw this out to you.

One final note: don't forget to check the grain direction before you glue up to avoid challenges when finish planing the top. Not a big issue in some woods, but in general a big area of tear out is a bummer in a top. Of course I'm hand planing my tops, but if your using a drum sander its not an issue.

[Chris Lukowski]

Just finished gluing up a 22x54 top for a dresser. One board had a bit of a bow so after searching for my biscuit machine and cutting the slots, I ended up taking all the biscuits out and just gluing it up. I was able to tweak the board easily and clamp it up. It was a reminder how unnecessary biscuits are.

So the question has been answered but I would like to add one comment.

Generally I think 4/4 or 5/4 rough stock is best for tops. I start by skip planing to reveal grain and select boards. I do not face joint them. Glue panels up thick means I don't fret too much about slight discrepancies in the joints because I know I will be rough planing to flatten the panel anyway. Starting with 5/4 material gives you plenty of room for that.

In contrast, surfaced lumber is often 13/16 which barely leaves enough material for sanding. Therefore, you must search for nearly perfect boards and IME you that can be quite a challenge. Also IME many times I encounter a desirable board with interesting grain but will have a twist, bow or cup. It would be usable as a 5/4 but not as a surfaced board.

If you already have good material, that's great I just thought I would throw this out to you.

One final note: don't forget to check the grain direction before you glue up to avoid challenges when finish planing the top. Not a big issue in some woods, but in general a big area of tear out is a bummer in a top. Of course I'm hand planing my tops, but if your using a drum sander its not an issue.

This is the kind of thing that makes me glad I asked. I don't have a planer of any kind yet, and wasn't planning to have much on hand in that category besides a 5" random orbit sander. It was my hope that a distributor of S4S lumber would be able to give me straight boards without twists, bows, or cups, leaving only some minor jointing and post-glueup sanding to deal with. If this is not a realistic expectation then I may want to reconsider, especially if the lumber itself is going to cost near $200 in walnut and good planers start at $400. I was already planning to have the side panels of the dresser be made out of hardwood plywood, but wanted the top to be solid lumber at least. Now I wonder if I should make that out of plywood too and just surround it with solid edging so I can route it.

[Curt Harms]

Biscuits were invented after WWII for fast construction of cabinets made primarily of sheet goods. They do have a place IMO but gluing up panels isn't one. Cauls work better and they don't need to be fancy, just make sure glue won't stick to them. Biscuits are a quick & easy reinforcement for miter joints such as picture frames for example.

[Lee Schierer]

I think I'll be making the dresser top from 1x6s of black walnut that are S4S prepped by the lumber yard or online seller

S4S lumber should not need to be jointed by you before glue up. The edges as furnished should be fine for gluing unless the boards are not straight and if that is the case you should either reject them at the lumber yard or get a discount on the price. If there are gaps between the boards when you lay them side by side, using clamps to pull them together will only result in problems in the future. Once all four boards are glued up, you can rip the panel to finished width on your saw. Also leave your pieces a little longer than finished length so you can true up each end after glue up.

[Mel Fulks]

I'm skeptical of s4s boards prepared by dealer being fit to glue up without op at least laying them out it in chosen order. Lots of fine jointers have fences that won't stay EXACTLY square verry long. To counter that some of us lay out and mark board order then joint one edge in ,one out,...repeat as needed. Beyond that MOST jointers I've run across in commercial shops produce open end joints as many employees prefer that to a machine that "climbs". Make it clear that you are buying a top ready to glue, NOT a pile of boards ,so machine needs to be adjusted accordingly.

[Robert Engel]

Chris,

My comments are based on the two lumber sources I can deal with and I'm assuming the same issues will apply anywhere. I think the problem is kiln drying and how the lumber is stored.

Don't be too discouraged. It is possible to find suitable material. You have to go look at the lumber and plan on spending a lot of time sifting through boards. The hardwood suppliers around me cater to millwork and cabinet shops, not furniture makers so finding rough lumber can be hit or miss.

If you cannot find suitable lumber, with the limitations you have regarding tools, and since you're already using plywood, that may be your best option. Good luck.

[lowell holmes]

I have u-shaped glue blocks made that I use clamped two at a time on the seam at equal spaces. This pulls the boards straight after the glue dries. I've had good luck with this technique.
If the boards are bowed a bit, clamp them up with the bows opposite.

This straighten the glue up as well as aligning the boards.

[Ken Combs]

This is what I now use to align board edges whenever they have enough reach. bought a bunch of these when I was doing Swanstone veneer solid surface. Really handy for lots of stuff.http://primetools.co.uk/content/uploads/cache/2015/07/514A_240R/3208471934.jpg

[Jon Grider]

I've never used biscuits and see no need for them. I've glued panels as long as 6 feet without biscuits, dowels or splines using pipe clamps. A lot depends on how flat your boards are. If you have several boards to glue up you can always do them two at a time, which gives you more time to get things aligned before the glue sets up. Then either add one board at a time to the original pair or make several pairs and then glue them together.
This is how I do it also.

[Rod Sheridan]

The answer is, an infinite length.

No mechanical fasteners are required, only proper fitting surfaces and glue and clamps.

Your finger will be able to feel tiny differences in alignment, far more accurate than biscuits, dowels etc................Regards, Rod.

[Frank Pratt]

I'm one of those rare types that actually like biscuits. They are great for joining sheet goods. But as an alignment device, they are just a waste of time & money. You can do far better using clamps & cauls for alignment. Or even, as Rod says, just use your fingers to feel for alignment. If there are lots of board in the glue up, it might be easier to use cauls.

As an aside, it is amazing how fine a resolution your fingers can detect. Ridges as small as 13 nanometers on a surface can be detected by dragging your finger across it.