Chinese laser variations

[John Lifer]

Hi guys, I've been reading a lot of the prior posts and have found a lot of knowledge about lasers here. Thanks in advance for sharing.
I'm trying to decide on a laser. Mainly burning wood, may get into other materials. I want to keep my options as wide open as possible in order to work with the most materials and items that I can. As always, funds are limited. I've looked at the Epilog and Trotec and a couple of other us manufacturers, but I can't justify the high cost. It becomes only an option to drop down to a Chinese machine or not buy laser. ( I am looking for good used, but those are still expensive)
So, I'm looking at the wide variety of the Chinese machines. I have pretty much dropped Rabbit off as still pricy, and are roughly from what I can see the "same" machines as the others. Yes support in the US is worth something, but I can't justify the difference.
Now I'm getting bids from Ray Fine and weike, and thunderlasers. I've seen again a good difference between the Ray Fine and the Thunderlaser machines. I can almost get a Ray Fine machine delivered for the cost of a Thunderlaser.

What gives? Quality difference or just business?

I'm leaning towards the Ray Fine as so far communication has been best with Blanca (again, thanks guys for suggesting her here)
Has anyone got a good reason to believe that any one Chinese machine is better and worth paying a couple of thousand dollars more to obtain?
Enough rambling for first post. Oh, looking at a 600x400 or 700x500 either with 80 Watt co2 reci tube.
John Lifer

[Dave Sheldrake]

There are 4 basic controllers

AWC,
Ruida,
Leetro,
Topwisdom,

Other than that the rest is just variations on the same theme and the outer case they are bolted into.

Bearings are usually from PMI, Hi-Win or NSK

Tubes are from RECI / EFR or at the middle end SPT / Golden Laser or at the bottom end TongLi/YongLi

The only thing that varies by a lot is 1: after sales support and 2: Machine chassis build quality

I used to be quite a supporter of Weike.....not these days though given some of the horror stories I have heard.

[David Somers]

Hi John,

My direct experience is with Ray Fine. My sales person was (is) Blanca Yan (yanblanca@yahoo.com) I bought a 900x600 80watt EFR machine from them along with a similar size CNC and have been very pleased with it. We had a few issues with the CNC initially, and a bit of confusion with the laser but Blanca and her tech folks were right there for me. I would happily buy from them again. Blanca was superb as a sales person and all through the follow up after the sales. If you can, whatever machine you get I would try to do an EFR tube. Dave Sheldrake can list off the specific reasons for you, but essentially better quality, longer life, etc And it will cost you little to nothing extra. Be sure to ask for a machine with a motorized table. My preference is for a steel honeycomb rather than aluminum (I like using strong magnets as hold downs for slightly warped materials). I would get a CW5000 chiller, especially since you are in Arkansas where it is a bit warm now and then. You should also get a blower with it to extract fumes, and an air assist and a water pump. Ask for an extra lens, a spare mirror set, and spare belts and a chain for the table. And be sure you specify if you want 110 or 220V power. On your end, I suggest having dedicated circuits for the laser and components. The laser by itself should be on on a circuit of its own, or if you cant do that I would suggest a voltage regulator to cover it. If you buy something in addition to the standard 50.8mm lens I would suggest asking for a lens tube for that lens. It saves you having to disassemble the current tube to change lenses. if the change is easier you are more likely to make use of your various lens. If you go for a lens with a shorter focal length (like a 1.5in) then make sure you get a lens tube for it with the appropriate cone on it for that short focal length. Otherwise you end up with little to no clearance between the bottom of the cone and your working surface. Lastly, be sure your table size anticipates any future needs. And that the Z height available on the machine anticipates future needs. Most of us use mostly flat stock, but in my case I often work with large items and needed my table to drop down pretty deeply. They can accommodate that if asked. Just be sure you deal with those questions up front. And I would suggest having pass through doors even if you don't think you will use them. That and a large table size (1200 or 1300 x 900) can help with resale later on. Be ware that size involves a honking big cabinet BTW. Measure your available space before you go there. You can house a small family of 12 in those cabinets. (grin) I didn't have room for that size and got a 900 x 600. It works fine, but if I want to use any 4' wide stock I have to cut it down to fit the 900 width.

Hope that helps.

Another company to look at is Shenhui. You already mentioned Rabbit. They do cost a bunch, but you get a lot of service from them as part of it, including personal delivery and setup and training on site for your machine. Plus having them available for support later on. I strongly considered them when buying but for my uses I could just not justify the cost. They have a great reputation. Boss seems to have a good reputation. And Automation Technologies seems good. I believe they are a supporter of Sawmillcreek by the way.

One caution with buying direct from China. Their holiday schedule is pretty wild. They have some longgggggg national holidays during which you cannot get support. And remember the date and time differences to them. That affects your ability to get support. You need to adjust your time scales when working with them and make this purchase knowingly. I might also suggest you a bit less sensivity to down time with a Chinese machine, and you should perhaps be a more independent user. Not a full fledged electronics technician, but at least not the sort who faints at the sight of a naked circuit card. Fortunately, when you guy a Chinese machines most of the parts are interchangeable so you are not stuck replacing parts on a Shenhui machine with only their parts.

And before you buy.....dig and read and and read and read some more. This forum is one of the best places to be digging in my opinion.

Dave

[John Lifer]

Thanks for the info Dave and David!
I'm looking at a 700x500 as being about the largest I can both afford and get in my workspace. And this requires them splitting the machine with cabling between top and bottom. I guess that will work out ok, just a cable rather than internal cord.
I've a basement that I'll be using it in (yes, good window to install the exhaust, I'll have to make a frame but it'll work) ---BTW, for you guys that use in an enclosed space, do you have inlet air to replace what you are pumping outside?

David, I've got decent quote for the machine from Blanca actually. Specified a Reci tube originally, I'll go back and hit her up for a change. It is motorize table, with honeycomb, (got to make sure it is steel!) It comes with chiller, need to make sure it is the 5000 model. Basement stays 65F in summer, at 78F upstairs, so I'm not really worried about heat but never can tell, it might end up elsewhere.
I haven't gotten to the spare items. Will make up list from your post. Yes, separate circuits are no issue, already there. Just need more lighting overhead :)

Let me know if I've missed anything:) Going to go read some more.

[John Lifer]

Guys, the current Pass thru is only 45mm High (700 width which is great) Do you think I should change this and increase?
I can get pretty thick board thru that space, but should it be enough? Any issues with fumes/smoke if I go up to say 80mm (3" nominal)
John

[Dave Sheldrake]

Guys, the current Pass thru is only 45mm High (700 width which is great) Do you think I should change this and increase?
I can get pretty thick board thru that space, but should it be enough? Any issues with fumes/smoke if I go up to say 80mm (3" nominal)
John

Not really any issues so long as the extraction is good.

If it's a RECI tube that means it's at least an 80 watt, the 80 watt fatbody tubes are quite long (longer than your machine is wide) so remember to take that into account :)

[John Lifer]

Was looking at the EFR tubes, should I push for the ZS1250 series, looks like this is the shortest tubes they offer.

[David Somers]

John,

Like Dave, I dont think a taller passthrough will make a difference in fumes. You could always put a bit of weatherstripping on the edges of the passthrough doors if needed, but I dont think it will make a lick of difference. The blower they provide is strong enough it usually grabs my dog (an Aussie) sucks him in and spits him out into the side yard. Not sure if he likes it or not? You are moving a fair amount of air through that puppy (the blower, not the Aussie.) In terms of the height of the passthrough slot....what do you plan to run through it? 45mm is 1.75". Pretty tall. I ran an exterior door through mine and it was exactly 1.75" and just fit. I can't imagine doing that often. More typically I run 2ft x 8ft flat stock of some sort (thin plywood normally) and will feed it in from the front to the back most edge of the table and get it flat and then cut whatever I am doing, finishing with a slice at the front of the table. Then I remove that piece on the bed and slide the main stock in to the back of the bed and do it again. Basically I am being lazy and avoiding having to cut up the plywood to my bed size. I will often go through a great deal of effort in order to be lazy. <grin>

Since you will be venting directly out a basement window you might consider building a little soundproofed box for the blower so it sits outside and any leaking section of hose will always have a lower pressure than the air outside the hose so no smoke will be able to get out of the hose within the garage space. If the blower is inside the basement it will be fairly noisy, plus any hose length from the blower through the basement to the window will be under positive pressure and smoke will be forced out of any tiny leaks in the hose between the fan and the window. (remember to have a screen and grid on the window vent to keep insects and critters our of your space.)

Regarding an outside air source to replace what you blow out.....I considered that in my garage during the winter. Figured I didnt want to suck what heat I had outside. Some folks here cautioned me about that since I might be pulling moist air into the machine which might condense. I took their advice and really havent had a problem with heat being blown out. If your furnace is in the basement you could put a heat robber (a closeable vent added into the duct work going into the house) in an exposed duct so you can open or close it for more or less heat when needed. Otherwise, I would try it as is to start and adjust if needed. I am in Seattle so my winter low temps rarely get below freezing, with daytime temps typically around 45. Dont know where you are in Arkansas (I used to work at Hot Springs National Park) but the climate in winter in Hot Springs was pretty mild. Most homes are not so tightly built that the output of the blower isn't easily replaced by seepage overall. But if you wanted to be sure you could just open another window (on the opposite side of the basement if possible so you dont suck in the fumes you just vented out) to provide some replacement air. Or if needed, put a small but close-able vent in somewhere for the same purpose.

When Dave said the RECI tube is bigger than your cabinet, the way they deal with it is with an add on section to the cabinet that encases the longer tube. It looks like you took a rectangular mailing tube and stuck it on the side of the unit. Have Blanca tell you the size of your cabinet, and the size of that add on section if you go with a tube that requires an extension. My 80 watt EFR tube fits easily inside my 900x600 cabinet, but the cabinet is honking big. That family of 12 living in there is quite happy. Though they do wish they had a bigger rumpus room. <grin>

Next time you chat with Blanca please tell her hi! (I should add I dont get anything from them for sending people their way. Am just a happy customer)

Dave

[John Lifer]

Thanks David. I'm up in the Springdale area, it is usually about 5 to 10 degrees cooler than Hot Springs, but like all of the South it can be hot, and here a decent cold (lows in single digits several times in each of my 5 yrs here.) good idea on making box for blower. I'll do that, i was going out a window, may change up and go thru a door to a concrete porch that I can fix box to more securely. Think dog door passage :D
On the pass thru, I would be like 90%, of you, an inch or less would work. But I'm thinking about maybe a few thicker parts that might be a couple of inches thick. I'll think more about it. I can always fabricate an aluminum panel to go into the gap. That is easy. And does give me a nice option. Think barrel of gun sticking out, engrave on stock without breaking it down.

[Dave Sheldrake]

ZS1250 is an excellent tube :) I use all EFR tubes in my machines :)

[David Somers]

Hmmmm. I wouldn't think you would need to make a panel for the pass through door. If they modify it for you to create a taller pass through door they will increase the size of the door as well to match it. That was why Dave and I didn't think it would make a difference to the blower function in the machine in terms of being able to pull dust and smoke out.
They may modify the table frame height so it matches the lower edge of the door. Otherwise they have to raise the gantry to clear the extra height and that is more involved.

[David Somers]

You may need to be a bit creative with a gun stock barrel. That is a curved surface, though if I remember right, most of them are not big curves so you might be OK. Remember the laser has a VERY shallow depth of field. A lot will depend on how much of the stock you intend to engrave. Check out epiloglaser.com. Their web site is pretty good and they had an example of lasing a gun stock last time I looked. I believe they did a diamond checker pattern. Worth a try if you have some material on hand to play with. I take it you are a gun smith? I have a friend who works at Lava Beds National Park in northern CA. He is also a gunsmith and someday we will try a stock on the laser when he is up this way. In the meantime he learned to do the checkering by hand. Once he learned to do it and had some practice he got to like that hand work. Kind of a Zen process as he described it.

This is the link on Epiloglaser.com
https://www.epiloglaser.com/how-it-works/applications/gunstock-engraving.htm

[John Lifer]

No, not a gunsmith... Just a thought, and yes, curved would be difficult. I've seen some but by hand would be more probable.

[David Somers]

It is certainly doable, and perhaps in one pass (in terms of focusing....maybe not one pass in terms of depth of cut, though I suspect one pass will work there as well.). It will depend on how much flat space you have to work with on the stock. I have seen some that were pretty flat, and some that had quite a curve from top of the stock to the bottom. Those would take more effort.

You might be able to get a stock from a smith who botched one and be able to practice on that?

[John Lifer]

Yep, that's easily doable. That's what gunshows are for, obtaining parts.....

[Bert Kemp]

I've attended several Cowboy Action shooting competitions and there's always a mobile engraver there doing gun stocks and grips . They just lay them in the engraver and go for it. The slight curve doesn't seem to be a big problem.I've been threatening for a couple of years to do my own, I think now I have the confidants and the ability to do it .:D maybe LOL

[David Somers]

Hey Bert!

Let me know if you try it. I am curious. A checker pattern seems deep to me, and in hard wood. I should see what they are making stocks out of (walnut?) and try a pattern and see what happens. That could be useful for more than just gun stocks.

Dave

[John Lifer]

I've attended several Cowboy Action shooting competitions and there's always a mobile engraver there doing gun stocks and grips . They just lay them in the engraver and go for it. The slight curve doesn't seem to be a big problem.I've been threatening for a couple of years to do my own, I think now I have the confidants and the ability to do it .:D maybe LOL

That's where it would be nice to have a smaller unit that really is mobile. I can see the K40's and the Full Spectrum H, and the vaporware GF printer might shine.

[David Somers]

Since you would be relying on it for revenue with little recourse to tech support while traveling I might be tempted to go with something like a small Epilog for that kind of use rather than a K40. They are OK for light hobby use where you have a high tolerance for down time (that is when they actually work after you receive them), but I would think something more liable and durable and made with good components would be called for in a traveling unit.

[Keith Winter]

Wouldn't trust a $1000 machine to this job. Heck I'd be nervous engraving with my trotec on someone's gun more to less a Chinese machine. Chinese machines are good for cutting not precise engraving IMO.

[Kev Williams]

My NH rep has a fold up table, very similar to an ambulance gurney and almost as big, that allows him to cart around some pretty big machines with ease.

And I respectfully beg to differ, Keith! ;) ...
343673
I only have one machine that will burn Cermark onto aluminum,
and that would be my Triumph. It's Chinese AND huge! Maybe
most people with 1300x900 machines don't engrave with them
much, or expect them to be capable of high quality engraving,
but mine's fine-tuned nicely and will churn out very decent
engraving all day! :)

[Keith Downing]

There are 4 basic controllers

AWC,
Ruida,
Leetro,
Topwisdom,

Other than that the rest is just variations on the same theme and the outer case they are bolted into.

Bearings are usually from PMI, Hi-Win or NSK

Tubes are from RECI / EFR or at the middle end SPT / Golden Laser or at the bottom end TongLi/YongLi

The only thing that varies by a lot is 1: after sales support and 2: Machine chassis build quality

I used to be quite a supporter of Weike.....not these days though given some of the horror stories I have heard.

This is great info Dave. Can you elaborate on what differences there are between the controllers, or rank them by what you feel their level of quality is?

[Bert Kemp]

The guys I've seen at gun competitions, one had an epilog and the other had a trotec both had 8x16 foot trailers that hauled their machines. I talked to them about hauling them ,they said they hold up well. Cheaper machines will not stand up to the bumpy roads stop and go traffic and the like. I hauled my Rabbit from Ohio to AZ 3 days on the road, and didn't have to do an alignment when I started it up.

[Bert Kemp]

Heres a test piece I did on scrap walnut, yes it mostly flat but I just wanted aqn idea what it would look and feel like. its a basket weave pattern. Some areas are darker , I lowered the power part way thru I thought it was to dark.343674 also I wiped it with DNA and it wasn't quite dry when I took picture so some light areas. Don't really know how this would work for grip but I think it would look good on the butt end of the stock.

[David Somers]

That looks pretty darn good to me Bert.

[David Somers]

Keith,

I have been having great luck doing engraving with my Chinese puppy with the 80 watt EFR tube and a 2" lens. No complaints about the quality. Might not be as fast as a Trotec, but it had done a good job, and works consistently. Of course, I spent a bunch of time being sure everything is aligned 12 ways from Sunday, which I dont think many folks think about doing to their Chinese machines. So far though I am pleased with it both for cutting and engraving.

Dave

[Keith Winter]

My NH rep has a fold up table, very similar to an ambulance gurney and almost as big, that allows him to cart around some pretty big machines with ease.

And I respectfully beg to differ, Keith! ;) ...
343673
I only have one machine that will burn Cermark onto aluminum,
and that would be my Triumph. It's Chinese AND huge! Maybe
most people with 1300x900 machines don't engrave with them
much, or expect them to be capable of high quality engraving,
but mine's fine-tuned nicely and will churn out very decent
engraving all day! :)


Looks really great Kev! :) Bert and Dave I know you're pros too. ;)

I think if you have a finely tuned Chinese laser like you guys do then you can do detailed stuff, but honestly the speed you have to go at to make it work are productivity killers. The trotec is probably 3x at normal engraving and 6x faster at detailed engraving like you're showing off. To me the Chinese are simply the wrong tool for the job when it comes to detailed engraving. Then you have to consider the OP is talking about the lowest of low end lasers, he is definitely going to have a hard time dialing his laser in like you guys have. You have a lot of experience that factors into being able to pull that off which he does not as well. Thats my experience with the Chinese I have vs the Trotecs, and why I say it's the wrong tool for engraving firearms and such.

[Bill George]

Right on Keith, I thought my Chinese laser did a good job, But.... very sensitive to mirror and optic alignment. I would hate to screw up someone's prized gun stock using one.
My ULS machine was in the back of a U Haul trailer for 200 bouncy miles, no cushion or shock support, unloaded and plugged in, worked great. There is a difference.

[Gene Uselman]

I am also delighted with my Chinese laser with 2" FL lens- it will cut .5 Corian and oak and engraving is quite passable for engraving- notice the 10/10- 100 engraving below the eagle (.060 tall).343711 Gene

[Bill George]

You cut .5 Corian? As 1/2 inch thick stone and epoxy countertop material. My table saw with a carbide tipped blade does that just fine, but a laser... hard to believe.

[Matt McCoy]

That's where it would be nice to have a smaller unit that really is mobile. I can see the K40's and the Full Spectrum H, and the vaporware GF printer might shine.

Engraving anything over a few inches at a large event would probably take too long with a 40 W chinese laser to make it worth your while. Speed is everything if you want to capitalize on impulse customers at shows, which tend to come in bursts, and any bottleneck eats into how much money you leave on the table. To be able to cover booth fees, setup/breakdown, travel time, and pay yourself a decent wage; you have to be able to crank out product on demand quickly. However, if your budget is limited, you can get by, you'll just have to adjust your product within the limitations while providing something interesting that will appeal to attendees.

[Dave Sheldrake]

This is great info Dave. Can you elaborate on what differences there are between the controllers, or rank them by what you feel their level of quality is?

In order

The AWC 708C Plus is a real top of the range controller, lots of functions that while not used on most machines are actually included (up to 4 lasers and decent PWM control,greyscale engraving) Nice control pad too that has a number of extra functions. The standard C is the same controller but a few less extra functions.Probably overkill for most users but given there is very little price difference between them and a Leetro 6585 then might as well go for the extras (about $20 difference on average)

Leetro 6585 is the latest from them, good solid controller but a few less features but does everything required.Some earlier models can be problematic like the 6535 and their naming convention has to be watched as it depends on what country it was marketed in (the 6515 and 6525 are the same units for example) The 6585 has gone back to flat style buttons on the pad like earlier models, I much prefer the 6565 pad that had raised solid buttons.

Ruida, been around some time and produce generally reliable controls, few more problems due to the complexity of setting them up and getting it all spot on but not bad, a few stories about problems but they do tend to be used in cheaper machines so some of those problems are caused by the machine rather than the controller.

Topwisdom was developed by Redsail, not keen on them to be honest as sole manufacturer users means you don't have huge avenues for spares if there's a problem.

[Gary Hair]

Get a galvo co2 and you have the best of all worlds - fast, portable, and fairly inexpensive. The one drawback is the limited working area, but you can tile your work and still get larger pieces done.


That's where it would be nice to have a smaller unit that really is mobile. I can see the K40's and the Full Spectrum H, and the vaporware GF printer might shine.

[Kev Williams]

As for speed--

If I need to 'mark' wood or Rowmark etc, my western machines will kill the Triumph in a speed test--

If I need to cut any deeper into wood or engrave some sort of stone, the opposite is true. However, mostly because the Triumph has twice the power. And as detail/deep engraving goes, the Triumph is as good as any Gravo/Trotec/ULS/Epilog/GCC/ or any other machine.

And then there's setups.... One reason I got the Triumph is to engrave the 22 x 32" operator panels I build, which have a ton of text and outlines. The size of these panels requires a 180 turnaround in my LS900, which is several minutes of making sure everthing is aligned, TWICE. The Triumph will do TWO of these panels at once with no setup change. Even though it engraves much slower, the actual machine time is about the same, if not quicker.

And the X factor, while the Triumph is spending 45 minutes producing $300 worth of engraving in 'slow motion', my "good" machine is free to quickly produce the 'lightly' engraved stuff that's too slow in the big machine...

The X factor is why I have 15 machines, and that they're slow is actually a bonus sometimes, gives me time to get the other machines producing...
:)

That all said, if I had to choose ONE machine, it would NOT be a Chinese unit. I do get good use out of mine, but in the end, there simply is no comparison.

[John Lifer]

ZS1250 is an excellent tube :) I use all EFR tubes in my machines :)

Btw, I asked to change to this tube and there was no change in price. :D