Shaper panel raising cutter

[Susumu Mori]

Hi,

I recently purchased Freud pr2000, a panel raising cutter. I have been using router bits to raise panels and this is the first shaper cutter for me.

I understand that there are two ways to set it up, cutter side up or down. I also understand that the cutter-up is a safer operation.

However, I found that the cutter orientation is such that it needs to be rotated clockwise with the cutter-up configuration. It's possible but I just want to confirm that I'm not doing something silly. If I'm not mistaken, does it mean shaper panel cutters are designed to be used with the cutter-down configuration more often?

Your help would be much appreciated.

[lowell holmes]

My shaper raised panel cutter is vertical. I can control bow in the wood with the vertical configuration.

If you run your cutter with the cutters down, I don't see how you could control the bow.

With the cutters up, you can press down on the bow and get a flat surface.

My shaper has reversible rotation. Are you sure your's does not.

[Mel Fulks]

Panels are sometimes raised with the material vertical,like a picture hanging on a wall. With that rare exception all cutters are used so that the raised side of panel can be seen by operator. That is the standard because for safety the cutter can be used on a machine with only one nut with no fear of loosening on a standard counter clockwise spinning machine. Some cutters are available either way IF they are deemed by mfg safe either way and a second locking nut is used. And obviously the standard "see the cut" way makes for perfectly uniform edge thickness. When panels are raised on both sides TWO are often used back to back for the reason of accuracy,even if thick material is available.
It's possible to incorrectly wire a shaper: cutter should spin counter clockwise.

[Mel Fulks]

I just looked at photos of the Freud cutters . It's possible you are being confused by the fact that all show the cutters upside down. A better way would be to show them vertical with a drawing of panel profile also shown. Take no chances, anything related to safety gets answers here pretty fast .

[M Toupin]

One of the things that make a shaper so flexible is spindle can be run any way you need to so accomplish the cut hence why all but the most basic shapers come with the ability to reverse the motor direction. There's no hard and fast rules. Some cuts require a top cut, others a bottom cut. Though you don't have to double nut if you're running the spindle clockwise it makes good habit in my book. I always double nut, but then again I'm probably just a likely to run the spindle clockwise as counter clockwise depending on the need. If you don't have one, a power feeder should be a requirement for a Shaper too. It opens so many doors. Not to mention its much safer and leaves a much better cut surface as well as adding a whole new level of flexibility in your setup.

Mike

[John Lankers]

Susumu, I own the same cutter. You can use it in any orientation you want. I use mine with the cutter under the panel (face down) with the power feeder, I also install a safety bar across the fence opening to keep the panel from tipping into the cutter. I usually raise panels in two passes - first pass removes 99% of the wood and the 2nd pass cleans it up.

[Mark Wooden]

Running a right hand threaded spindle clockwise without a using either a tabbed washer in a slot in the spindle or double nuts is dangerous IMO. It can cause the nut to un-screw itself off. At ,say, 7000 rpm, that happens instantaneously and now your cutter is loose, maybe rising up the spindle too. BIG danger...

Anyway, most of the time we run cutter over the panel for two reasons- it keeps the tongue thickness constant so it fits well in the frame and scratches and such happen on the back of the panel where it won't matter as much if you have to sand a little deeper. Also, the panel won't tip if pressure is applied near the fence and produce a scallop- hard to sand out of a hip raise.
I often rough out panel bevels on a table saw and make one pass on the shaper, I find it saves time and I get a nice cut. (Yes, I have a four wheel feeder on my 7-1/2 hp shaper-still do it)
If you don't have a feeder yet, set up some spring hold downs or featherboards to help keep the cut smooth, and it's all good advice to make two cuts to get there. Have fun and be safe;)



Mark, 40 yrs in the trade and can still count to 10 on his fingers.........

[Mel Fulks]

Since there would be possible edge thickness variation using the cutter in a way contrary to design what purpose would be served? And an accident in a commercial shop involving a breach of normal operation has more serious legal consequences than one where work was done properly.

[Susumu Mori]

Thank you all.

I am not sure if I understood all the responses, but here is what I thought;

1) Cutting vertical: I didn't know that there were shapers that can cut a panel vertically. The arbor must be horizontal, if I'm not mistake. Because my shaper can't do it, this doesn't apply to my situation.

2) I can use the cutter in a cutter-up (panel face down) configuration as John said. I believe this is considered as safer. However, as you can see from http://www.freudtools.com/index.php/products/product/RP2000, this requires the clockwise rotation of the cutter. My shaper can run both ways. There is no problem for that. However, as some commented here, the clockwise rotation has its own risk (my shaper doesn't have threaded arbor and this may not apply).

3) I can use the cutter in a cutter-down (panel face up) configuration. Then it is counter-clockwise rotation, but it is also considered as risky because the panel can be trapped between the table and the cutter.

So, I guess what I'm saying is; why the shaper raised panel cutters are not designed for cutter-up AND counter-clockwise operations?

If I understood Mark correctly, #3 is the standard operation of the panel raising using shapers? But I'm not sure how you can use a power feeder if the cutter is above the panel....

Further education would be greatly appreciated.

[Mel Fulks]

Well,your last question is plain and easy, the feeder wheels are adjusted about 3/4 " or a little more from the max knife projection and skewed a little to push material tight to fence. Make sure feeder is in good order and will not move out of position. I'm sure there are lots of photos on line. Feed wheels should compress upward about 1/4 inch when on a panel.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Lowell and Mel,

Sorry that I was so dumb about "vertical". Do you mean, you use something like euro-type insert cutter that allows to mount cutter blades vertically? If that's the case, it certainly is a good solution.

Last night, I went over the manual of Freud RP2000 and was surprised to find that the raised panel cutters are designed to be used "cutter-down". I also found several youtube videos and they are mostly used in this way.

[lowell holmes]

[QUOTE=Susumu Mori;2600622]Hi Lowell and Mel,

Sorry that I was so dumb about "vertical". Do you mean, you use something like euro-type insert cutter that allows to mount cutter blades vertically? If that's the case, it certainly is a good solution.

Don't use the word dumb. The attached picture shows what my raised panel cutter looks like. It is to be used with the panel vertical. I don't know that your cutter could be used vertical.
The panel board has to be run against a fence with the board being held against the fence. It can be a bit scary, I use push blocks to grip the panel, holding it firmly against the fence.


343535

[Susumu Mori]

Thanks Lowell,

This makes a perfect sense now.
This could be safer than the big horizontal cutters that expose so much blades from the fence.

[David Kumm]

Are you using a feeder? A raised panel cutter really benefits from one. Constant speed, better cut, less danger. They do make guards to put over the cutter for face up work although the feeder itself serves as a guard in a way. If a shaper is reversible, the design should be configured for the spindle to run either way so that is only an issue for single direction machines. You do want a decent shaper with a decent quill but I think a feeder should be standard equipment when running cutters of any size. Dave

[Susumu Mori]

Thanks David,

Yes, mine is reversible. Also the arbor is not threaded. So, I assume the clockwise rotation won't increase the risk. It's just I'm not used to the opposite feed direction.
Also, I have a feeder but haven't tried the opposite direction either. I'll try it too.

[lowell holmes]

I suspect that you must have an elaborate push block that holds the panel flat and against the fence.

I would make one with a handle on it so my hands and fingers could safely push the wood past the cutter.
I'm curious if you push the wood through more than once. I probably would.

[David Kumm]

Use the feeder for as many cuts as possible. I like cutter above the board with a feeder but just me. Set the feeder enough away from the cutter so it the wheels are not over the hole in the table as they tend to push the last couple of inches down into it. That is one reason I like a small hole and the cutter above. Dave

[Mark Wooden]

If your spindle isn't threaded, how do you tighten cutters on. Whether you have a nut threaded onto a stud at the top of the spindle or a bolt threaded down into the spindle,, running clockwise against a right hand thread can still loosen it.

[Mel Fulks]

Mark, the only thing I could figure was he meant the shaper did not have interchangeable spindles, but I think we made it clear enough that the spindle tooling nut (first time I've had to use that term) could loosen.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Cutter down lets me add more rings to the table. (smaller hole)

[Andy Giddings]

As I recall, Susumu (the OP) has a Felder or Hammer shaper which has a bolt holding the interchangeable spindle in place. The shapers are bi-directional and (at least according to the manual) as long as you clamp the collars and tooling correctly (right gap between the cap and the top of the spindle, right min torque) it won't come loose

[John Lankers]

Correct, this is a very safe setup for clock wise and counter clock wise operation. The bolt should never come lose when installed and tightened properly as Andy says.

[David Kumm]

343569Here are some various sized spindles. Third one is the strongest but all are reversible ( note notches on two draw bolt spindles.). SEKO 3 hp shaper, Knapp, SCMI T130 and Felder 700. Spindles with no through hole are the best. Through hole and 3/4" needs to be kept short, no stacked cutters. Cartridge is easy to swap but not my favorite design. Can't fault the F700 shaper though. Just not as rugged as T130 or my old Martin T21. Dave

[Susumu Mori]

Thanks Andy.

Yes, mine is Hammer B3. I was looking at the spindle this afternoon and you are right. I don't see there is a way for the cutter get loose in both directions. The holding screw is completely independent of the mass of the cutter. It is well designed.

Anyway, it is assuring to know that I don't have to worry about the spin orientation.

So, I guess the cutter beneath the panel seems a safer operation but the point David and Mike made (much smaller table opening) is another good point to know. I have to be careful so that the panel never get pushed to the wide opening.

Thank you all. It is very important for me to learn all these potential risks.

[Mel Fulks]

Yes, installed correctly a spindle will not unwind spinning in either direction. I have seen them unwind twice. I think any employer who does not personally watch a new employee change spindles before allowing them to do so is taking a big risk. The manuals are pretty defective in instruction ,too. The admitted calculation from mfgs.is the more they instruct the more liability they assume.

[Joe Calhoon]

Normally shapers with reversing switches will have a shaft with slots vertical in the threads and pins of some sort to match. Look at the old Martin shaft in the center. This is off a non reversing shaper, the shaft has the slots but the nut has no pins. All the other shafts have the pins on the nuts and are safe to reverse without double nuts.

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343574

Dave,
All my Dorn Fix shafts have a through hole to allow a 30 second change with a wrench. The T23 shafts are solid with threads and take a lot longer to change. I see no issues with the through hole.

343577

[Mel Fulks]

The failures were on a large Delta with a Morse taper under a removable double threaded collar. Collar depended on an O
ring to be put on spindle at right point before being put back and tightened. Missing or worn O ring could easily mean spindle was not at
proper point ,allowing spindle to be too deep or not deep enough. The provided manual was indecipherable. When a machine fixer had to be called in to remove spindle he showed us how to install it. The two near disasters were caused by
someone unqualified to do anything on a shaper. I go back to most all of the work being done with slotted collars on beefy old machines with 1 and 1/4 inch spindles. Some had been modified for special work, the most unusual was one with a spindle about 2 feet tall for making stair rail fittings resting on a small high platform allowing needed tabe clearance. For more "modern" work taking advantage of cutter sets and more head sizes I see changeable spindles as a must have.

[David Kumm]

Joe, I was talking mainly about smaller shapers with 3/4" spindles, like the one on the left of my picture. I see or hear of people bushing 1.25" cutters down to 3/4". Depends some on the diameter of the hole but care should be taken not to over power the spindle or quill on smaller shapers, especially stacking cope and stick on a 3/4" spindle. Your lightest duty machine is likely heavier than what most use. Dave

[Mark Wooden]

.

Anyway, it is assuring to know that I don't have to worry about the spin orientation.

. It is very important for me to learn all these potential risks.

(I'm sorry, can't let this go-)

What type of lock does a Hammer spindle use?

And Thanks to Dave and Joe for the pictures, I no longer have pics of mine since a computer crash. But my spindles all have a version of the milled slot, tabbed washer or spacer with stud as shown in Joe's pictures. When placed under the nut, then it won't loosen.

I'm sorry to be "ringing the alarm bell" here but I've seen what can happen when a large cutter comes loose. Wish I had pics of that.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, I was talking mainly about smaller shapers with 3/4" spindles, like the one on the left of my picture. I see or hear of people bushing 1.25" cutters down to 3/4". Depends some on the diameter of the hole but care should be taken not to over power the spindle or quill on smaller shapers, especially stacking cope and stick on a 3/4" spindle. Your lightest duty machine is likely heavier than what most use. Dave

Dave, I see your point with the smaller shafts. Way back when we started making house doors we were using a Delta HD 3/4" shaper and using braised 1.25 cutters with top hats. We never had a incident but you could feel it was a shaky setup. We went through a lot of bearings and finally upgraded to a heavy Italian shaper.

[David Kumm]

Hear you Joe. I did some cuts on my 3 hp SECO that now scare the crap out of me. Until you learn a little about machines, it is easy to stretch their limits. Dave

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Mark,

Here is the pic of one of the spindle heads.
You can see two pins from the top section. It is difficult to see but the third ring from the bottom also has two set screws to keep it in place.
So, in this design, the force from large cutters won't be transmitted to the center bolt, I guess.
The cutter is held only by friction from the top, though.


343604

[Joe Calhoon]

Susumu, that is a cap designed for reverse rotation. The set screw in the spacer is a new one for me.

[mreza Salav]

sorry, to jump in here: are you guys talking about the cutter coming loose on the spindle (in certain operations) or the whole spindle (shaft) coming loose? I'm getting a bit confused. I have a generic 3HP shaper (similar to Delta/Grizzly) with 3/4" spindle and I've used it mostly with double nut setup. My understanding is that the bottom of the spindle (where it mounts) has a taper with a notch. So I wasn't worried about the spindle coming loose if it is rotating one way or the other.

[Martin Wasner]

I think they're just talking about the retaining nut. Not the whole spindle coming out.

[Andy Giddings]

Joe, Susumu - according to the manual (at least my interpretation as it's not explained clearly) the ring with the set screws goes immediately above the cutter(s) and the screws are meant to be torqued very lightly (signified with a "feather" :-)). They merely act to stop the cutter(s) moving when you lift the whole spindle out. I think if you overtighten the screws it will mark the spindle (causing problems with tool removal) and interfere with the clamping force applied by the cap.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

If I can add this to the conversation.. after having machined our own doors in our custom shop since I was a kid in the 70`s.. and me personally for the past 20 odd years - we use both RP cutters that are above and below the panel material.

I prefer the cutter below the panel for one main reason, the shaving and chips go straight back into the dust hood under the table and very little gets ejected out. If your panel material is uniform thickness, the tongue is still machined to uniform thickness. I also use a sub top (usually MDF) set onto the machine top, to prevent any scratches from occurring on the panel face.

The cutters that sit above the panel material tend to throw a lot more shavings up and out past the fence, making a lot more mess. Not much else different IMO in terms of machining quality or set up, etc.

Either way is IMO just as safe, if set up properly and power fed. I also use a safety aluminum disk, a little larger diameter than the cutter sitting on top of it. Available in all sizes from LA Weaver.

We had the Freud set years ago - although I prefer the modern insert carbide sets I now use from other makers, the Freud cut fine if kept sharp. You can lap the face of the inserts on a fine diamond hone.

[Mel Fulks]

Andrew ,glad that is working for you. I can see that could work with a "planted " (nailed in moulding ) but for panels made to go in a machine cut groove the chances of getting a trouble free fit would not be good for most of us as just a few thousandths can be a big deal. Few planers cut exactly the same on both sides. The makers of the tooling see a self interest in safety and intend the cutters to be used counter clockwise. Standard for all stock panel cutters is counter clockwise panel face up. They will custom make some cutters in any direction configuration desired, but I believe they would decline to get involved with your method.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks David,

Yes, mine is reversible. Also the arbor is not threaded. So, I assume the clockwise rotation won't increase the risk. It's just I'm not used to the opposite feed direction.
Also, I have a feeder but haven't tried the opposite direction either. I'll try it too.

That's the way to do it, cutter under the work, use the feeder, also safety fingers on the fence opening so the panel can't tip into the opening in the fence................Regards, Rod.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Andrew ,glad that is working for you. I can see that could work with a "planted " (nailed in moulding ) but for panels made to go in a machine cut groove the chances of getting a trouble free fit would not be good for most of us as just a few thousandths can be a big deal. Few planers cut exactly the same on both sides. The makers of the tooling see a self interest in safety and intend the cutters to be used counter clockwise. Standard for all stock panel cutters is counter clockwise panel face up. They will custom make some cutters in any direction configuration desired, but I believe they would decline to get involved with your method.


Most "modern" shapers I am aware of (since the 90's) are designed to run either way.

Most tool manufacturers I know and deal with, will make my tooling any way I ask (direction of cut, over or under).

If your planer is that far out of whack, well, all I can say it wouldn't be in my shop. My 20" planer cuts within one thousandth over the 20" - I assume any better piece of equipment in a working shop should be tuned up similarly. Besides, we run the backside of the panel (which is below the frame) through the wide-belt sander before shaping the profile, to both pre-sand and to calibrate the panel thickness. I've never had an issue, in machining many thousands of doors, with fitting my panel to frame. I'll also add we do not use any panel spacers nor pin the panels. My father taught me to fit the panel into the frame tight enough as for it not to rattle or move with the door opening or closing, but loose enough to float freely seasonally. Yes, it takes a good set up. Not an issue with good equipment and tooling.

In terms of saying one way is "the" way - not in my experience. Both ways are valid and both are used. And again, both have strengths and possible weaknesses. But far better chip collection is my reason to choose the way I do, as in my case I see no difference in machining quality up or down.

[Mel Fulks]

yes ,the machines turn either way, but default tooling direction is counter clockwise. With small stuff like cabinet sets safety is not a big issue, indeed even though the cabinet sets are made to run face down counter clockwise many insist on running them face up. They will make you up a set going the other way. With large cutters they are more careful. I can't remember the exact circumstances of my inquiry but one company told me they will not make some of the larger profiles ,which they consider inherently directional to run clockwise. Certainly I believe some will make anything,especially for repeat customers. Context is important for forum content; OP is clearly a beginner who needs specific advice , not anything goes. No one is asking for universal compliance.

[Mike Kees]

I am also new to using actual shaper cutters on my shaper. I have read this entire thread with intent to learn more. My question ; counter clockwise rotation is "forward" and clockwise is "reverse" ? My shaper (steel city) is opposite to this. Is my switch wired backwards compared to most shapers ? Thanks to all the people who have posted on this thread.

[Cary Falk]

I would say it depends on the shaper. My 3hp Grizzly had CCW as forward. My 5hp Laguna has CCW as reverse.

[Mark Wooden]

Mike Kees

I am also new to using actual shaper cutters on my shaper. I have read this entire thread with intent to learn more. My question ; counter clockwise rotation is "forward" and clockwise is "reverse" ? My shaper (steel city) is opposite to this. Is my switch wired backwards compared to most shapers ? Thanks to all the people who have posted on this thread.



Forward and reverse switches are really more specific to the way the motors are wired, some consider CW forward, some CCW. I guess it depends on which way your looking at it.

Whats important is that the operator of the machine knows what direction the spindle is turning, and understands what forces are in play, i.e. what causes things to remain tight and what can cause things to loosen. Know what the "twelve movements of freedom" are is very helpful- https://books.google.com/books?id=xPDA-oyTvVEC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=the+twelve+movements+of+freedom&source=bl&ots=1Nmc7fprle&sig=twLH6Y-R2T5LB-yP0COFAEWr28A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4sNqEvf3OAhUBlx4KHSoPB78Q6AEIIjAB#v=on epage&q=the%20twelve%20movements%20of%20freedom&f=false

I suggest marking "CCW" & "CW" on your machines next to the switch with a sharpie. I did on mine.

[Mike Kees]

Thanks for the idea Mark, I will take my sharpie to that switch.

[Peter Quinn]

It's pretty much all been covered, for me with a standard horizontal panel raiser, most of them are designed to run above the work in standard feed, which is cutter spinning counter clock wise work feeding from left to right. Some can be ordered otherwise, but that's pretty standard. I wouldn't hand feed with cutter above the work unless I had a real shaw guard set up. Always power feed, I have lock nuts and retainer rings on all the shapers I use, I still only feed reverse when really necessary. Panel to the table cutter above is better for reasons mentioned above, accurate tongue thickness, less panel deflection as panels are held down in tension by feeder, always my preference. A good panel hood will capture more dust than most stock fences, mine is adopted from the Lonnie Byrd book.

Oh, I have that Rp 2000 set, does a decent job, always been happy with it.

[Rod Sheridan]

I am also new to using actual shaper cutters on my shaper. I have read this entire thread with intent to learn more. My question ; counter clockwise rotation is "forward" and clockwise is "reverse" ? My shaper (steel city) is opposite to this. Is my switch wired backwards compared to most shapers ? Thanks to all the people who have posted on this thread.

Standard material feed is right to left, so CCW spindle rotation is FORWARD...................Rod.

[Bill Orbine]

It's pretty much all been covered, for me with a standard horizontal panel raiser, most of them are designed to run above the work in standard feed, which is cutter spinning counter clock wise work feeding from left to right. Some can be ordered otherwise, but that's pretty standard. I wouldn't hand feed with cutter above the work unless I had a real shaw guard set up. Always power feed, I have lock nuts and retainer rings on all the shapers I use, I still only feed reverse when really necessary. Panel to the table cutter above is better for reasons mentioned above, accurate tongue thickness, less panel deflection as panels are held down in tension by feeder, always my preference. A good panel hood will capture more dust than most stock fences, mine is adopted from the Lonnie Byrd book.

Oh, I have that Rp 2000 set, does a decent job, always been happy with it.

Do you care to revise the feed direction? As if standard feed is typically starts from right and moving left......or am I missing something here? People are getting confused.

[Mark Wooden]

Counter Clock Wise rotation, feeding against cutter rotation (standard feed)= feed right to left

CCW rotation, feeding left to right, is known as a Climb Cut- don't try this with out a power feed

Clock Wise rotation, feeding against the cutter rotation ( not standard, but sometimes necessary,*requires tabbed washer, or dbl nuts etc)= feed left to right

CW rotation, feeding right to left, is a climb cut, see caution above

* assumes spindle has right hand threads