Need Advise on New Workbench

[Patrick Cox]

I am enrolled in a class at the local Woodcraft where we will build a workbench and I have some questions and concerns that I am looking for help and advise on. I have seen an example of the bench that we will build and it does look sturdy. It is made out of Southern Yellow Pine. The top will be laminated 2x4s and will be about 3 1/2" thick. The legs look like they are made from 2 laminated 2s4s and are therefore about 3 1/2" x 3 1/2". All of this sounds OK to me except for the following...

They say there will not be time during the class to customize the top to fit any specific vises. So the top will be one solid 3 1/2" thick surface. My concern is around adding a tail vise. Since I am new to woodworking, I am not really confident in my ability to add a tail vise to this top. From what I have seen online, it looks like I would need to do major excavation of the top to install a tail vise. Am I wrong about this or will this indeed be a lot of work? Or are there other good options for adding a tail vise?

And then on the face or front vise, will I have problems due to the top being 3 1/2" thick with no skirt? When I look at installation instructions for front vises, it looks like the tops are thinner than 3 1/2" and then there is a front skirt added.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Pat

[Jim Belair]

I use a smaller "front vise" as my tail vise and it does the trick pretty well.

If you're using steel vises (or not) the wooden faces can make up the height difference if the 3 1/2" top is too thick.

[Jim Koepke]

the wooden faces can make up the height difference if the 3 1/2" top is too thick.

Some of my books on workbenches mention tapering the face slightly so it is thicker at the top than the bottom to counter any vertical racking. My recollection is 1/4" difference between top and bottom was recommended.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

The Veritas Quick Release Tail Vise is designed to be added to an existing bench. You'll have do build out the apron, and you'll need enough clearance from the leg but it's quite straigntforward. I like that tail vise. I have one.

[Mike Holbrook]

It depends on the tail vise. You might want to take a look at the Veritas Quick-Release Sliding Tail Vise. You could also just attach, what is normally referred to as a front vise, to the end of your bench. The small bench I am using now uses this type vise. All you need is a dog hole in the end/front vise's jaw, that lines up with your dog holes. The Veritas Quick-Release Front Vise is often used this way. Both of the Veritas vises are relatively easy to retro fit to a bench.

Ooops Prashun headed me off at the pass.

[Robert Hazelwood]

This really depends on the particular vices you want to use. I installed a Benchcrafted wagon vise as a tail vise, and in the normal installation procedure you modify the front two laminates of the benchtop prior to glue up - on mine, the second lam from the front is made into a dog strip, and is cut shorter than the others to leave a gap for the moving block. I think this is the best way to do it, but it is totally possible to add the recesses and gap after the fact (Chris Schwarz's blog has a brief description of doing this to an existing Roubo), and just drill holes for round dogs.

I can't speak directly for other tail vise designs, except to say that there is almost certainly a way to make anything work. I would take advantage of the class, get the bench built, then worry about adding vices. You may find you don't even need a tail vise.

As for the front vice, larger cast-iron vices will have a jaw depth of at least 3-1/2", so there won't be any issue. My benchtop is ~3-1/8" thick (no apron) and I had to actually add a spacer under the top to get the jaws to sit below the benchtop (mine is an Eclipse 10" QR vise)

[Robin Frierson]

Concerning the SYP....if you prowl the aisles of the home centers and look through the 2 x12s you can sometimes find some older growth boards with nice qter sawn sections in the plank....sometimes totally clear. Ripping those out of the planks yield some beautiful lumber. Letting it sit for awhile also helps as this is construction lumber and the moisture content is higher than kiln dried HW. My first two shops were all full of that qtersawn SYP and it turns a beautiful amber color over the years. Lot of the courthouses in North Florida had qtersawn syp in them. I would try and accumulate that lumber for my bench.

On the vises find yourself a small record for the tail and the record for the front vise. I added those to a premade maple top for my bench. But my bench is only 2 1/4in.

[Nick Stokes]

I use the veritas inset vise, and it works just fine. The Clamp in the vise trick is also an incredible workholding option, especially for those who haven't built their Roubo shrine yet.

As for the face vise, you can mount that to the top no problem. Use a shim underneath to make the top of the vise even with the top of your bench (or slightly below). Add wooden faces to the metal face vise and you're in business.

I'm also a fan of having the face vise protrude slightly away from the bench. I like the functionality of that, as opposed to flush mounting the face vise. There are proponents for both.

[Phil Mueller]

I'm finding my biggest challenge to a retrofit on my bench is the leg location. I didn't allow enough overhang which means a tail vise would need to be inset from the front of the bench at least the depth of the leg. I'd like it closer to the front of the bench than what my leg would allow. So, I would recommend you decide on the vise you want, understand the clearances you will need to install it, and place the legs accordingly.

Regarding the front vise, you may want to check out Paul Seller's video on installing one..good tutorial.

[Joe A Faulkner]

The argument for you are going to fast:
There are several good books on workbenches that you should read before building a bench. You need to go to the library and check out the "Workbench Design Book" by Christopher Schwarz and the The Workbench: A Complete Guide to Creating Your Perfect Bench (https://www.amazon.com/Workbench-Complete-Guide-Creating-Perfect/dp/1561585947/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472862590&sr=1-1&keywords=workbench) by

Lon Schleining (https://www.amazon.com/Lon-Schleining/e/B001K8QP6O/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1) and The Workbench Book: A Craftsman's Guide from the Publishers of FWW (https://www.amazon.com/Workbench-Book-Craftsmans-Publishers-Woodworking-ebook/dp/0918804760/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472862590&sr=1-4&keywords=workbench) by Scott Landis.



Then you need to spend a several hours a night for a couple of three weeks looking at hundreds of workbenches that other's have built. If you don't stay up past 1:00 am doing this a couple of nights, you aren't doing it right. Start here: (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?124750-Show-us-your-Bench&p=1259363)http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?124750-Show-us-your-Bench&p=1259363



You also have to check out various You Tubes vidoes on bench builds, including this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhn-PAfEW4 on viceless workbench
and this one on the Maguire Workbenches. Logan Cabinet shop has one on an English workbench and there are undoubtedly hundreds of others.

Then you have to spend weeks agonizing over leg vises, quick release vises, shoulder vises, metal vises, vises with wooden screws, bench craft hardware or the hovarter vises http://www.hovartercustomvise.com/.

Honestly I just don't understand how anyone can build a bench without investing a couple of months in obsessing over it. And I haven't even spent any time talking about how much time you could spend settling the question as to what species of lumber to use.

The argument for you are going too slow:

You are new at this. Your first bench probably won't be your last. If you don't have a reasonably solid, flat surface for securing and holding work you will struggle. Building a simple, basic bench is great next step for you. In a few months or years you might use it primarily as an outfeed table or an assembly table, but if you are currently working off a door slab thrown across a couple of saw horses, having a bench with a 3 1/2 thick top and 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 inch thick legs is going to be a huge upgrade. So get on with it; keep it simple and just build the Woodcraft bench and be happy.

Or ...

Go to the library and checkout the Schwarz book. He argues for legs that are flush to front and back face of the bench, using a traditional face vise as a tail vise; keep the width in the 22 to < 24" wide range and as long as your shop can reasonably accommodate (7' to 8') unless you are a boat builder. No aprons, but a solid, thick top. Round dog holes within 2" to the front edge of the bench spaced 4-5". Additional holes for hold fasts. My guess is the wood craft bench does not keep the legs flush with the front and back faces of the bench - that would be a relatively easy change to make on the fly and then makes it possible to later add a leg vise should you want one.
Good luck, and keep us posted.

[george wilson]

You are very lucky that your local Woodcraft offers such an ambitious course as one where you build your own workbench! Ours (which is too far away from me to allow me to teach a class!) ,offers only basic and small projects to make.

North Carolina was a good place for me to be,back in the 60's. There were small machine shops,foundries and country saw mills that I could use to get one off parts cast and machined,such as banjo rims. I don't know if this has changed these days,but I'd encourage you to find a small country saw mill and get a beech log custom sawn for your next bench. I did this here in Virginia. There used to be a small sawmill that I got to saw 4x6"'s for my work bench legs. At another,I was LUCKY to find a huge billet of beechwood. It was about 5" thick,10 feet long,and about 24" wide! It had a piece of barbed wire going through near one end. I drilled out the wire and neatly plugged the hole. it is hard to find. They sold it to me for $10.00!!

I had to let all these beech timbers dry for several years in the Tool Maker's Shop. But,eventually I made my present(and very likely LAST) work bench ! It has 4x6" legs,and a 4" thick top. One piece except for the 4x6" front edge,where I mortised for the dog holes. The solid wood top would have been too heavy to get up onto the mortiser!!!:)

Getting this beech custom sawn was very inexpensive. The main draw back was the waiting time for drying it. You could possibly find a small sawmill or lumber yard with a kiln,though. I don't recall how much it cost me to buy the large beechwood log and get it sawn. But,I'll say that it cost less than buying soft wood at the store.

I really loved making work benches,but at my age,I can no longer handle the heavy wood that I demand my benches to be made of. And,I no longer have easy access to the large mortiser that we kept in our shop as a favor for another shop for several years. I am always glad to grant those kind of favors!! It was an old,heavy Monarch. I'd love to own it!

[Patrick Cox]

The Veritas Quick Release Tail Vise is designed to be added to an existing bench. You'll have do build out the apron, and you'll need enough clearance from the leg but it's quite straigntforward. I like that tail vise. I have one.

Hi Prashun,
Well, it is hard to believe but my bench class will start this coming Saturday. I can't wait to get started! I wanted to ask a follow up question on this vise. My bench will not have an apron. But could I cut a notch out of the front of the bench and place the vise in this spot? So the vise jaw would be the same size as the cutout (plus saw kerf) and then I would mount it back into the cutout spot.

Thanks!

[Patrick Cox]

I use the veritas inset vise, and it works just fine. The Clamp in the vise trick is also an incredible workholding option, especially for those who haven't built their Roubo shrine yet.

As for the face vise, you can mount that to the top no problem. Use a shim underneath to make the top of the vise even with the top of your bench (or slightly below). Add wooden faces to the metal face vise and you're in business.

I'm also a fan of having the face vise protrude slightly away from the bench. I like the functionality of that, as opposed to flush mounting the face vise. There are proponents for both.

Hi, at this point I am thinking about either this inset vise or the Veritas QR tail vise. They both seem pretty easy to install and I am pretty sure I can build my bench to accommodate either. So on the inset vise, you are happy with the holding power of this vise as well as the operation? Any other advise on this vise?

Thanks!

[ken hatch]

Patrick,

Robin offered some good advice in looking for 10' or longer 2"X12", they will usually be much better than short 2"X4". Then you should ask two questions, do I want an English bench or a French bench (I would pass on the German bench for a first bench build). The French is in style and it sounds like that is the planned build but there are some real advantages to an English bench. Cost and ease of build are the major ones, I also like the work holding options better. Then the third question is what kind of vises do I want/need (can be two different things) associated with the vise question is do I need a "tail" vise and if I do what kind. Tail vises for some folks get very little love, others swear by them. I think there are almost always a better way to hold work on the bench top than a tail vise. Full disclosure, several months ago I added a QR vise I had laying around to the tail position so I could saw off the end of the bench. Have I used it after using it for the sawing....not once.

Two good videos to watch are the "Neked Woodworker's" and "The English Woodworker's". Either of the videos are very good and both take you through all the steps of building a functional bench. Folks tend to overthink something when they haven't a clue about what they need. Build your first bench quick, cheap, and simple, then go to work making things. That will teach you more about building benches and what your bench needs than all the books out there, by the third or fourth bench you should get pretty close to a perfect one. Unless you are very lucky or much smarter and better than I am (BTW, low bar) it will not happen with the first one.

ken

[Patrick Cox]

Patrick,

Robin offered some good advice in looking for 10' or longer 2"X12", they will usually be much better than short 2"X4". Then you should ask two questions, do I want an English bench or a French bench (I would pass on the German bench for a first bench build). The French is in style and it sounds like that is the planned build but there are some real advantages to an English bench. Cost and ease of build are the major ones, I also like the work holding options better. Then the third question is what kind of vises do I want/need (can be two different things) associated with the vise question is do I need a "tail" vise and if I do what kind. Tail vises for some folks get very little love, others swear by them. I think there are almost always a better way to hold work on the bench top than a tail vise. Full disclosure, several months ago I added a QR vise I had laying around to the tail position so I could saw off the end of the bench. Have I used it after using it for the sawing....not once.

Two good videos to watch are the "Neked Woodworker's" and "The English Woodworker's". Either of the videos are very good and both take you through all the steps of building a functional bench. Folks tend to overthink something when they haven't a clue about what they need. Build your first bench quick, cheap, and simple, then go to work making things. That will teach you more about building benches and what your bench needs than all the books out there, by the third or fourth bench you should get pretty close to a perfect one. Unless you are very lucky or much smarter and better than I am (BTW, low bar) it will not happen with the first one.

ken


Thanks for your reply. I watched these videos and they were very helpful. I think I will start out without a tail vise and try some of these tricks for holding my boards. Regarding my bench design, I don't really have much say in this other than the dimensions. (height, length, width...) Woodcraft has a design we will follow and they have already purchased the boards we will use. It is a basic 2x4 laminated top with 2x4 laminated legs with lower stretchers and a lower shelf. Very simply but also very sturdy.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

[Robert Engel]

Patrick,

When you say tail vise, I think you are talking about an end vise, correct?

I think a good combination is a 10-12 inch quick release endvise. I have a Rockler model that has served me well and is very easy to install.

For your face vise, two schools of thought here and it depends somewhat on the brand of vise you use:

1. surface mount
2. mortice the inner face into the apron to make the whole inner aspect flush with apron. It would be quite easy to add an apron to your bench to accomplish this. I would simply use screws and plugs. There are pros and cons to both.

Just make sure you locate the face vise in an optimal position on your bench. If right handed, a good position is 2-3 feet from the left.

Here is a pic of my utility bench. The face vise should be closer to the left side.
344799

[Prashun Patel]

Robert, he references the Veritas inset and QR tail vises. Those are both true tail/wagon style; not end vises.

[Patrick Cox]

Hello,
One more question on my bench design. I have been reviewing bench designs and I have a question on the overhang on each side of the bench legs and the placement of the face vise. I am thinking my bench will be 60 inches in length and 24 inches in depth and about 30" in height. To start, I plan to only install a front vise and then I will later decide if I want an inset vise or end vise (or maybe no vise on the end.)

So regarding placement of the front vise, I have seen front vises install in two ways...

1. With the legs out towards the left end of the bench and the front vise installed to the right or inside of the left front leg.

2. With the top mounted with an overhang to the left of the left side legs and the vise mounted to the left of those legs under the overhang of the top.

So, are one of these installations preferable for stability and use?

Example of option #1...

344911

Example of option 2...
344912


I am wondering if option 1 would be more stable for planing than option 2 because you are essentially planing into the leg whereas option 2 the forces are almost down into open space and that energy would be transferred in a manner that would stress the top more. Not sure if that makes sense but I would appreciate comments on this.

And one more thing, are there any guidelines regarding what percentage of your bench top length should be between the legs?

Thanks!

[Phil Mueller]

Can't answer your questions except to recommend that you leave enough overhang (from leg to end of bench) to allow for an end vise. I didn't, so I'm faced with either a small vise, or insetting it 4-5" to clear the leg.