Electrospindle vs regular bearing type spindle?

[peter gagliardi]

Anybody know the critical differences in quality and build between these? Specifically when looking at new shapers, Martin uses a tried and true spindle assembly with bearings and a pulley driven by a separate motor.
SCMI now has an "electrospindle" - it appears to be basically a direct drive motor and shaft assembly. I don't know what the critical differences are? The sales guy apparently thinks "this is a huge deal".
So I started questioning him to understand, about longevity and types of bearings and lubrication, etc.. He said, "no lube needed, sealed bearings" .
My opinion of the quality of this unit immediately went waaaaay downhill. So anybody an engineer type or machine guru that can explain why it is supposedly "so good"?

[David Kumm]

The answer will be interesting. There are few sealed bearings of any size 63xx or even 62xx that will deliver 12000 rpm unless the seals are non contact and the cage is machined or phenolic and the bearing precision. That would be very rare and hugely expensive to replace. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

Isn't the electrospindle basically a router unit? Do they make them with fixed arbors, or are they HSK? Spindle swaps are great - once you have a bunch to keep loaded with tooling.

[edit] nevermind, I see traditional spindle tapers with "electrospindle" drive. I would personally not want to go back to a fixed spindle shaper where you have to remove/install tooling.

[peter gagliardi]

It is my understanding that at least, Martin and SCMI have both had an HSK type of removable spindle top for the last 10-15 years, so I see that as a non starter.
Martin uses a VFD type unit to control spindle speed, so no need for stepped pulleys . I am sure the electrospindle uses a similar control. Seems it does away with the belt driving the spindle and should be smoother running, but...

[Joe Calhoon]

We had a shop owner to one of the window workshops that was running a big SCM pod and rail router making windows. He had a SCM Invincable shaper with the matching HSK electro spindle for off line work using the same heads as the router. He thought it was a ideal for his production and happy with the setup. Since SCM makes routers it is probably a logical option for them.

I asked the Germans from Martin why they did not offer this option and of course they had a answer. They say with the VFD belted drive they get 12000 rpm with little vibration. They said if the motor goes out it is expensive to replace and if the spindle gets hit or damaged the motor has to be replaced as well as the shaft vs just replacing the shaft on a conventional shaper.

I would like to try a SCM just to see if less vibration. If not sharing tools with a router I do not see much advantage.

[Erik Loza]

The whole selling point behind SCM using HSK spindles is, as others have mentioned, the ability to just drop in a pre-loaded spindle. In fact, the Invincible shaper comes with this little cart that has something like half a dozen extra spindles in it. It is a selling point to shops who already have CNC machines, since the HSK spindle is what they already have.

Regarding Martin's rebuttal to not offering electrospindle techology, the real reason is probably because Martin doesn't sell CNC machines. I've never personally heard of an Invincible owner having a motor problem with one of their electrospindles. Remember: That's the same electrospindle that SCM uses in a whole range of CNC machines, so they pretty much have it down to a science. Martin doesn't sell CNC machines, so which technology do you think they're going to say is better?

Erik

[peter gagliardi]

Erik, the HSK argument makes some sense. Martin does hit you for every single spindle, but the ability in '04 to swap the 1 1/4" spindle for an 1 1/2" made a world of difference to our shop. Now we could take the cutterhead out of our Weinig that ran straight moldings, and we could drop it on the Martin and run curved crown with the exact same cutter.
We still aren't getting to what makes an electrospindle so "special" ?
When looking at a machined piece, can we tell which machine cut it? If it doesn't transfer to better quality of cut it seems to me to be just another technology option to achieve the SAME end goal and quality level.
I went to IWF to see what SCM had, and was sadly disappointed in their presentation.
They may make a technology equivalent machine, but in a venue that I expected to see everyone's "A" game presentation of their best stuff, the TI7 they had was well underequipped. No table extensions, no fence operation, no cuttersets in a running machine, no tenoning table, no ability to see how their fence swings off the table. Etc, etc.....
The best the gent who was demo'ing it could muster was a forward to back tilt 45 degrees each way with an empty stationary spindle. Prior to the show, I spoke with my local sales rep for SCM, and I was holding out hope that the country of my heritage had finally gotten things "together" . Not quite yet.
Nobody I have tried to speak to that represents SCM has been able to pinpoint why the electrospindle technology is better, maybe I will never know.

[peter gagliardi]

To be fair, I wasn't overly pleased with Martin's offering either. The flimsy feeling feeder locking handle was a step backwards, as well as the flimsy twisting sheetmetal door to access the innards below the table. The gap is closing between these two makers, compared to 2004 when I bought my T26.
I thought the Martin was expensive, but the SCM was $10k more!!!

[David Kumm]

The the electrospindle motor DC ? A cut away view of the direct drive assembly would be good to see. As Peter knows ( he is an expert in machines ) direct drive used to be the norm except in high rpm applications. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Peter, that's funny about the SCM booth this year. Neither myself nor my colleague Sam Blasco were at the show, so that doesn't surprise me about the demo you received.

Regarding the whole electrospindle vs. "regular" style, I don't think one is better than the other. In other words, either will probably do whatever the customer needs. SCM already uses the electrospindle/HSK combo in a whole range of machines and probably has access to those parts (the ES motors they use are Italian) at pretty competitive prices. So, naturally, they spin it as being the latest and best. Martin doesn't deal in CNC's, so naturally, they say their way is the best. That's what I was trying to get across. At this level, you can't go wrong with either.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

The the electrospindle motor DC ? A cut away view of the direct drive assembly would be good to see. As Peter knows ( he is an expert in machines ) direct drive used to be the norm except in high rpm applications. Dave

Dave, I do belive they are DC. I know that they deliver full torque down to ridiculous speeds like 10 rpm and up to something like 20K rpm. Ranges you never would use in the real world.

Erik

[Joe Calhoon]

I know several shops making doors and windows with routers and they expect to have the electro spindles rebuilt or replaced after a certain amount of hours. And if you crash one it can do a lot of damage to the motor. Using shaper type cutters in these machines increases the wear and tear.

One thing I would want to know is the tooling weight capacity for these electro spindles. I regularly spin 25 to 35lb tenon tools on my 40 and 50mm Dorn Fix shafts and the Martin HSK shafts handle these also. Most door and window routers will only handle around 20 lbs.

My interest in the electro spindle would be to compare cut quality and vibration.

A woodworker friend of mine is looking at a Weinig Conturex. He helped them set it up at the show. That is one impressive machine for doors and windows. The cut quality with hydro tooling was the best I have seen as was their demo of presquared window construction and tenoned doors. Lots of money to plug one of those in and costly to apply software.

[Erik Loza]

I know for a fact that one Ti7 owner has been routinely using a 40+lb. tool n his HSK machine for at least two years with no issues so far.

Erik

[Terry Therneau]

"Everything old is new again" - song.

As a historical note look at Baxter-Whitney shapers. Large direct drive units that would run for decades in a furniture factory. Way to big for me (5- 18 HP) but they are sometimes discussed on the owwm.org site. A quote from there: "I have several of the Whitney direct drive shapers. I run all of them off VFD's ... These are very quiet and very smooth machines, and in my opinion, the finest shapers ever made."

I'm not recommending one for a modern shop -- the topic way outside my knowledge base --- just saying that the concept has proven feasible in the past. An example: http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=27993

Terry T

[David Kumm]

The old Whitneys ran 3600-7200 dual speed AC motors. The motor frames were huge and bearings were 63xx. Ran precision to handle the rpm. The large bearings had low rpm ratings but high radial load capability. I don't know if they ran in oil or grease but I think that relates to Peter's question. How does the smaller DC motor and likely smaller bearing set up handle the load of large cutters. Dave

Correction: Whitney ran a single speed 7200 rpm-120 hz motor. Hence the need for a vfd now. The bearings were precision and oil bath but don't know the size. They ran a 6311 and 63311 on their saws and the shaper would likely be as large or larger.

[Joe Calhoon]

I noticed Hofmann uses a water cooled electro spindle on their shaper that tilts to 95 degrees. I suspect because it solves the problem of tilting belts, motors and shafts all the way over.
http://www.hofmann-maschinen.de/en/produkte/fraesen/ufm-vision-210/produktinfos-highlights/

If you use shaper HSK spindles in combination with a CNC router high speed capability is important. A few years ago I set up a T27 for a customer that was running a big Homag for doors and windows. The tooling on his router was all in the 100 to 120mm diameter range. I programmed the shaper to run 7500 rpm like I do the profiling tools in my shop. The cut was not good and you could feel a lot of back pressure. We ended up running at 10 to 12K to get good results.

[David Kumm]

Joe, I'm surprised the Hofmann only goes to 10,000 rpm. While the almost horizontal tilt is a big deal, I would have thought a high rpm would be needed for some of the router tooling they show. Dave

[peter gagliardi]

Joe, that is more along the lines of what I think of when I see the term "electrospindle" . A liquid cooled precision assembly of some sort.
The SCM appears to be not much more than a direct drive variable speed motor with an HSK on the end. When you look under the hood, the trunnion mounting assembly leaves me with some pause as well, as it is only hung from one side.
Fine for a small 4" cope and stick set, but seems prone to innacuracy swinging a 30-40 lb stack of 300 mm tooling.

Erik, I know that it is a figure of speech saying my SCM booth experience was "funny" , but really, I thought it a bit sad.
I invested very real time and money out of my busy work schedule to go to the show to educate myself about SCM, and any other makers equipment, so I could make an educated and informed investment in a company that is hopefully there to
1. Sell machines, but ,
2. Hopefully help a shopowner become more profitable to,
1. Sell more machines.
Viscious circle it is, but in my opinion, they are/were/continue to be ill prepared to answer basic questions, and demonstrate basic functions coherently.
I guess I shouldn't expect so much from a machinery supplier.

It does seem however, in general, my experience at the show was pretty much across the board that machine makers and sellers are less prepared for some basic questions.
Even machine literature from everyone is very vague on specifics. I guess a couple "shiny pics" does all the selling these days.

[David Kumm]

Peter, high end vehicles seem to be similar in that the brochures and literature are all written by sales people. Few specifics regarding anything mechanically and most of the info relates to the newest electronics. Way of the world. I think a show display should bring in one technician to handle the few odd guys like me who are interested in how and why something works. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, I'm surprised the Hofmann only goes to 10,000 rpm. While the almost horizontal tilt is a big deal, I would have thought a high rpm would be needed for some of the router tooling they show. Dave

I don't know what the deal is with that Dave but I am going to have a closer look next year. 10K is probably OK for the shaper size cutters out of a CNC but would be a little slow for small diameter router bits. Although I tried a router spindle in the T12 and all except very small bits worked well at 9K. They all worked good in that machine at 12K. I wanted to try it because thinking of having a router shaft made for the T23 that only goes 9K.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, that is more along the lines of what I think of when I see the term "electrospindle" . A liquid cooled precision assembly of some sort.
The SCM appears to be not much more than a direct drive variable speed motor with an HSK on the end. When you look under the hood, the trunnion mounting assembly leaves me with some pause as well, as it is only hung from one side.
Fine for a small 4" cope and stick set, but seems prone to innacuracy swinging a 30-40 lb stack of 300 mm tooling.

Erik, I know that it is a figure of speech saying my SCM booth experience was "funny" , but really, I thought it a bit sad.
I invested very real time and money out of my busy work schedule to go to the show to educate myself about SCM, and any other makers equipment, so I could make an educated and informed investment in a company that is hopefully there to
1. Sell machines, but ,
2. Hopefully help a shopowner become more profitable to,
1. Sell more machines.
Viscious circle it is, but in my opinion, they are/were/continue to be ill prepared to answer basic questions, and demonstrate basic functions coherently.
I guess I shouldn't expect so much from a machinery supplier.

It does seem however, in general, my experience at the show was pretty much across the board that machine makers and sellers are less prepared for some basic questions.
Even machine literature from everyone is very vague on specifics. I guess a couple "shiny pics" does all the selling these days.

Peter,
I don't care for the shows especially the ones over here. Probably most everyone will disagree with me but if we didn't have these shows at the high prices the show people charge the venders I think the machinery would be 15 to 20% less to the end user. I think for woodworkers at the shows there are too many choices and hard to focus in on the small details of the machines. Now I know in your case you were only looking at 2 machines and disappointed you could not get good details on the SCM. I bought a lot of machines from the shows in the late 90s and was disappointed with most of those machines because I overlooked a lot of small details.

The shows in Europe are a little different. Its less costly for the vendors and they will usually have knowledgable people on the machines. I went to the Milan show years ago looking for a tenoner. SCM was giving nice demos by a skilled woodworker using the first generation electrospindle shaper for profiling and the Ten 220 Class tenoner to do the tenoning. I ended up getting a Colombo tenoner just because when I got back here no one at SCM knew anything about this machine and was difficult to try and get a order going. In hind sight it would have been a better choice for a small tenoner and I should have pushed harder.

My best machinery purchase was my T-90 four sider. At the time I was also seriously looking at a Weinig moulder for about the same cost. I ended up visiting Weinig for a day looking close ay the machine and spending a whole day at Martin doing the same. Now, this is costly compared to going to a show but I was able to focus on the important details. The Weinig is a fine machine and would have been the better choice if were running a lot moldings but we do S4S every day and not many runs of large deeply profiled moldings.

There is a lot going on with these machines. If I were you I would try to arrange in-depth demos of each machine and talk to owners. There are a lot of T27s in New England and I am sure many SCMs also.

[peter gagliardi]

Joe, you are right, the best thing would be to examine in a shop and talk to users/owners. Being a small shop myself, I would be happy to do the same for someone else who wanted to see my machines, but I am mindful of using another shopowners time when they have no financial gain. Seems quite unfair.
Maybe the eventual machine salesman should cut a check to the shopowner for doing the actual job of selling:D
I was willing to give SCM a chance, so I could learn, but I would say that door has closed for the foreseeable future.

[Erik Loza]

...It does seem however, in general, my experience at the show was pretty much across the board that machine makers and sellers are less prepared for some basic questions... Even machine literature from everyone is very vague on specifics. I guess a couple "shiny pics" does all the selling these days.

Peter, I'll be the last guy to tell anyone what to expect but in my experience, shows like IWF and AWFS are there to promote the cutting edge or the latest lines of machinery technology from each manufacturer and in the case of our industry, that happens to be CNC units rather than classical machinery. A booth the size of SCM's (or Stiles, for that matter) costs millions of dollars, so what do you think the vendor will focus on? $40K machines or $1 million nested cell technology? Martin's top of the of the line happens to be classical machinery, not CNC units, so naturally, they come prepared to demo and sell things like shapers, jointers and planers. Their booth costs a fraction of what SCM's costs because it's the size of a regular booth, not a city block. I hope you understand where I am going with this. It is neither good nor bad, it just is what it is. As much as you or I be interested in the newest Honda Civic at an auto show, Honda's gonna' spend the money to display the new NSX, not the Civic.

I agree 100% though: You need to have a dealer or rep that really knows that they're doing in order to sell classical machines and reps/dealers like that are hard to come buy. You probably would not be surprised how often customers ask me to deal with them on SCMi Classical machines because the dealer in their area (I'm contractually forbidden from dealing with Classical customers in most parts of the country, by the way) knows nothing about this or that machine or, as you mentioned, just gets handed a brochure along with, "Let me know when you're ready to buy one".

Erik

[peter gagliardi]

Erik,
I get it. If SCM were operating on a 10% profit margin, they could afford to lose another 14-15 customers like me, before they lost money on the million dollar sale. And they only gotta talk to one company rep, instead of 15-16 individuals. Truth be told, the profit margin on the big machines is probably exponentially better than a classical machine. But, a shaper that sells for $60-70k has plenty of "fluff" on its own. My local sales guy has I think pretty much given up, even after telling me he was going to chase down the pertinent info I was after a few weeks ago.
That's fine as well, because they still have plenty to do to catch up with Martin.
I was not overly impressed with the Martin offering either- not for the $60-65k they want.
The '04 i have that was $36k is a more substantial machine in many ways.

[Correy Smith]

is there actual weight limits for differing sized shafts? What is 1.25" spindle capable of spinning?

[Erik Loza]

is there actual weight limits for differing sized shafts? What is 1.25" spindle capable of spinning?

Probably as much as you could ever need. How heavy a tool are we talking about?

Erik

[Joe Calhoon]

Martin rates their standard shafts the same as HSK for max diameter of heads.

Shafts 30mm, 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" For profiling maximum diameter in standard fence 250mm. For tenoning with hood 300mm

Shafts 40mm - For profiling in standard fence 250mm. For tenoning with hood 350mm

Shafts 50mm - For profiling with standard fence 250mm. For profiling with special made fence 275mm. For tenoning with hood 400mm

I use mostly 40mm shafts to run our window tools on the shapers but have used 1 1/4" on occasion.

My heaviest tool is 48lbs - 320mm diameter. I always run that with either the 40 or 50 shaft.

One German shop is running a 62lb cutter on a HSK shaft.

Having tenon tools made of Alu will make for longer lasting bearings and easier on your back changing tools.

Here is a picture of tenon and slot tools on my vintage T23 with a 40mm shaft. Tenon tool is about 30lbs

345257

[David Kumm]

As Joe implied, you have to be careful when rating spindles based on diameter only. Depends on the quill size and type of bearings used as well as the diameter and bulk of the taper and whether the spindle is hollow with a draw bolt or solid. There are spindle assemblies where the diameter between the bearings is less than the diameter of the spindle. The smallest diameter is what counts. It should also be noted that bearings handle all the radial loads of the spinning disk and the stress of the cut so they have a significant impact on the size of cutter than can be used for any extended period. As shapers have become more dependent on shielded bearings rather than complicated external grease or oil systems, the bearing sizes have been reduced to allow for the rpms needed. Big bearings handle far more radial load but to achieve shaper speeds must be precision and very expensive. The lighter bearings often used in all but the highest end machines will run at higher rpm but won't handle the load for as long. Life is a trade off but as with life, everything gets complicated. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Not a response to any particular question but wanted to add that the vast majority of shops I've been in probably won't ever be using tools of that mass on a routine basis. Perhaps once in a while or perhaps for a certain run but my feeling is that it's going to be only your specialty door and window shops who would put tools of that size on a spindle on a routine basis.

Erik