Basic chair assembly

[John Sproul]

Hi,
i have recently undertaken a project to build, for my family, a dining set. The table is completely custom and ready for varathane. I was recently told by my better half that I best be doing some chairs too, to match the table. The problem is, I don't have access to a multitude of tools. My question is this... Short of buying a kreg jig and pocket screws, would a simple dowel reinforced joint be strong enough to withstand the pressure put against the backrest of the chairs in this photo? Upon drawing out a template, the rear legs and the back rest supports are attached at a 20 degree angle (both the leg and the upright have a 10 degree taper at the joint.)

[Mike Henderson]

Dowels are not the best joinery for that particular joint. A mortise and tenon will be stronger and last longer.

Mike

[Pocket hole screws would also not be a good idea.]

[I don't know why people seem to think that making a chair is difficult. It's just a series of individual steps. If you approach it that way, you'll find out that you're very competent to do each step. And doing each step carefully and accurately will give you a very nice chair.]

[Mike Henderson]

You didn't ask this, but a hint for building chairs is that you build the back and the front and then you attach the two together.

Mike

[Thomas Bank]

I’d start by asking what the plans suggest for joinery? As Mike says, I don’t think pocket screws are the answer either.

[mark mcfarlane]

I've never built a chair, but I've had quite a few (7 to be exact) expensive custom made chairs broken at dinner parties by friends leaning back, sliding on a rug without lifting their weight,... Get a 250 pound person leaning back on a chair and the joint stresses are very high. Add alcohol and the stresses seem to double. There's some weird physics rule in play.

Given the angle of the back, I'd be tempted to avoid any joint and cut the back leg and back as a single piece of 8/4 stock, or a laminate, with a jig saw if that is all you have.

Also, given the angle, it doesn't look like you could get a tenon more than 2 inches long before breaking through the surface of the mortised piece of wood, so there wouldn't be much wood in the morticed piece actually holding the tenon and you could easily split out the mortised piece. Make a larger diagam, draw out the tenon, and see how much wood there is left in the mortised piece to actually hold the tenon.

Or you could do what I do: 'Honey, that's really a great idea, and I love it, but chairs are a very difficult thing to build well and I'd need to spend a lot of money on new tools to make you nice chairs". If she doesn't bite, then try "I think we should go together this weekend and find the perfect set (silently) on sale".

[Mike Berti]

If you build chairs, select a plan that fits your tools and capabilities. Don't stick with one model if you can't do it right. I built a few chairs with hand tools. The back rest and legs were shaped from one arched piece of oak. It is held to the seat with pocket holes. The stretcher which adds much needed support is joined with mortise and tenon. I would add two horizontal cleats to the stretcher in your plan.

[Mike Henderson]

Just to clarify, when I gave you my answer, I assumed that the back leg and seat back support would be one piece of wood. I assumed you were asking how to attach the seat to the back. You don't want to make the back leg and seat back out of two pieces of wood.

Mike

[Tom Ewell]

This looks like the site he's working from, can't find any 'joining' techniques recommended. Maybe within the 'detailed' plans there are some (couldn't find any)
http://www.homegardendesignplan.com/2012/02/ds100-dining-set-woodworking-plans.html


Agree, shape the back/legs from one piece of stock, no joints.

[paul cottingham]

I weigh 260 lbs, and have chairs similar to those. I know it is a matter of time before one of them dumps me. I already have plans for how I will rebuild them with mortise and tenons (dominos, to be exact, so I can reuse the existing pieces.) save yourself a step. Mortise and tenons for chairs....

[lowell holmes]

If you have never made a chair, I recommend you view the dvd by Frank Klausz, "Making Mortise and Tenon Joints". He walks you through the importance of and how to loft the chair on a 1/4" sheet of plywood.

I learned to make rocking chairs at classes conducted by Paul Sellers. The first thing he had us do was loft the chair full size in plan on a piece of 1/4" plywood. You will save money on materials and also time if you will view his video. I have since made eight rocking chairs for family members and friends. The last one I made is being used to rock my first great grand children, a girl and a boy.
(and I am bragging:)

You can order one from Taunton. I am not affiliated with Taunton, just passing on a good tip. Klausz's video is absolutely top quality.

If you will go to Woodworking Projects, I bumped an old post showing one of my chairs.

[Wade Lippman]

On the one hand, I made a set of 4 chairs using dowels that have seen hard use for 15 years. They are still great; though I would feel a bit better if I had my domino back then.

On the other hand, making the seat back and the rear legs as two pieces is crazy. Nothing short of a tensioned steel rod is going to keep that back up.

[John Sproul]

Wow ok. Seeing as I already have the lengths cut to the pans dimensions, I guess I will have to figure something out... Thanks for all the advice guys.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I've made two sets of chairs, both were made with mortise and tenon joinery. I made the mortises when the the wood was square, then cut the back and front to shape. It's a lot easier to do that way, especially if the front of the chair is wider than the rear. I used a wedge to make the angled mortises.

[lowell holmes]

I would never use dowels in a chair, even though some do. Mortise and tenons are my choice of joints. The video sequence on lofting will solidify how to make the joints.

The chairs I built at Homestead Heritage were all made with hand tools. The chairs were mortise and tenon chairs and the first chairs ere made over 10 years ago.

At least consider it before committing to a system. All of the chairs I have built are mortise and tenon joints.

[Andy Giddings]

John, sorry to rain on your parade but if the seat and back of the chair is as flat as it appears to be in the plan, I think you're going to have some comfort issues as well. The seat can be fixed by adding a removable cushion but the back is another matter. Almost every chair I've seen has a curved back for comfort

[lowell holmes]

I have used slip tenons to repair joints in chairs that failed. A domino would be great for this. However, you can do it by cutting slots in both pieces and use a slip tenon. I will sometimes lock the slip tenons in place by drilling a hole through the leg or stretcher and the tenon. I will sketch the joint and post it.

The repairs that I made are holding strong. The joints that I repaired were double dowels.

[John T Barker]

What tools do you have?

[paul cottingham]

Oh, and make sure you shape the seat some. Mine have an oval removed from each seat (down about 1") where your bottom goes. It's not as nice as a properly shaped Windsor, but it is much more comfortable than a flat seat.

[Wayne Lomman]

John, first of all, wooden dining chairs will never survive abuse such as tilting, sliding while occupied etc. People who want to use chairs that way should stick to steel chairs. Note that almost 100% of office chairs are steel.

The other guys are correct that the back leg/backrest must be all one piece. It will need to be shaped out of suitable sized stock. It is often cheaper to buy wider stock that you can get 2 or more legs out of rather than narrow stock that only gives you one leg.

The joints should all be mortise and tenon with one proviso. The joint where the back leg, back rail and side rail meet must have enough timber left to be structurally sound after mortising in both directions. If the design does not leave you enough for strength, make a 3 dowel joint to connect the side rail to the back leg. As I said, this is influenced by the styling of the chair and is a judgement call.

All joints must be reinforced with triangular blocks glued on the inside of the joint. This means 8 glue blocks for each chair. This goes a long way towards reinforcing each joint and extending the life of the chairs.

Pocket screws are OK for attaching the seat to the frame. They have no other use in this type of project.

When manufacturing the components, do everything in batches of the required number plus a spare. It drives me nuts when I get near the end of making a component only to expose a gum vein or some other defect and have to try and set up all over again. If you end up with a whole extra chair, you have done well.

Before assembling anything, finish sand everything. Assemble with just enough glue so that there is minimal clean up. You then only have touch up sanding before polishing. Chairs have so much conflicting grain direction that this is a real time saver.

Use the best quality glue you can get hold of. It needs to be at least a high solids cross linking PVA (and yes to all you cynics, I do use glues other than epoxy).

I've been making chairs for years, decades actually now that I think about it. Have a go and if you need more preaching, just ask! Cheers

[Michelle Rich]

I have made many, many chairs..that design looks terribly uncomfortable. You must use one piece for the legs/back and you should use mortise and tenon. dowels will work, but you would have to use more than one per joint. hard to do and get them to line up..your semi-tooless condition will determine what you can do.

[Mike Walsh]

there's a good video/article on FWW.com from Matthew Teague for a dining chair with floating tenon joinery. Also one from Tom McLaughlin in Wood magazine using mortise & tenons. Both have very good drawings, Tom's has full size ones for back legs

[lowell holmes]

343358
Looking at the sketch, my experience is that dowels at the haunches will surely fail.
I have repaired several chairs that failed at those joints. I had to insert slip tenons.
The slip tenons have not failed. The issue is caused by people leaning back in the chair and stressing the joints to failure.
If you inserted dowels perpendicular to the side of the tenons after assembly, they will hold. That is how I repaired the chairs.

[John Sproul]

Would it be sufficient if I laminated a full length piece of 3/4 stock to one or both sides of the pieces I currently have? Meaning I currently have the back legs cut, but in two pieces at the joint where the seat is, so if I were to go buy some more 3/4 dressed stock, traced out the full back leg as one piece and laminated it to the sides of the pieces I currently have, would that be sufficient strength to hold say a 300 lb person? I'm limited now in money, and getting planed lumber isn't cheap where I am.of course, this is only one option, I suppose. But as I already over spent buying 8/4 stock dressed down to 6/4 dressed, I'm hoping to find an easier solution to this than to simply keep throwing more money at it unnecessarily. I have some stock left over from the table I built, so I may only need minimal amounts of additional lumber.

[John Sproul]

I have changed the seat design to a cushioned one, using some thinner lumber ( most likely plywood) but covered with seat cushion foam and some fabric that the wife chose to match her decor ideas. The back rests, I will either buy removable cushions or I am going to attempt to use a steamer box and bend some 3/4 stock to have a slight curve. I'm much more of a carpenter that builds houses, and uses wood lathes to make ballusters etc. I made small projects many times but I also had access to far better equipment than I do now. Thanks for all of th advice guys. Sorry to be in such need of advice so late in the project. I'm sure there are people shaking their heads at rookie mistakes.

[John Sproul]

Basic carpenter tools, table saw, compound slidling miter saw, router and many bits. Lots of patience and willpower to get things done in what seems to be the hardest way possible!

[Mike Henderson]

I have changed the seat design to a cushioned one, using some thinner lumber ( most likely plywood) but covered with seat cushion foam and some fabric that the wife chose to match her decor ideas. The back rests, I will either buy removable cushions or I am going to attempt to use a steamer box and bend some 3/4 stock to have a slight curve. I'm much more of a carpenter that builds houses, and uses wood lathes to make ballusters etc. I made small projects many times but I also had access to far better equipment than I do now. Thanks for all of th advice guys. Sorry to be in such need of advice so late in the project. I'm sure there are people shaking their heads at rookie mistakes.

Don't try to bend 3/4" stock. Buy thicker stock and cut it to your curve. If you insist on bending, do laminate bending.

Mike