Recommendation for durable, quality 36mm Japanese chisel for timber framing

[Phillip Mitchell]

I'm in no rush, but would like to find a Japanese chisel that is durable (both in the sense of holding an edge and also in it's ability to be struck with a mallet), made with quality steel that can take a fine edge with proper technique and stones, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg (under $200 shipped to US.) I'm interested in 36mm because it is closest to 1 1/2" and that's the gap I have in my chisel collection. I actually have a couple of Witherby 1 1/2" chisels, but both need to be totally re-habbed with new bevels established, which is a lot of work that I don't have time for at the moment. All of my other timber framing chisels are old American steel (Witherby, Pexto, Union Tool, etc) which are great, but looking for something different and bit more refined for the 1 1/2", as it's a common go-to size in timber framing.

I will likely not be mortising by hand with this (or any other chisel) very much, if at all. I will use it for both paring and striking, but obviously need an edge (or at least a bevel angle) that can stand up to moderate striking. Mostly used in Doug Fir or various cedars, but white oak on occasion. I say this is for timber framing, but I'm sure if I like the chisel, it will cross over to finer woodworking as well, so not strictly timber framing.

I don't know very much about Japanese chisels, but have always been fascinated by them. The only Japanese chisel I've used much at all belongs to a old co-worker, who has one from Japan Woodworker....not sure which one it is from looking at their site. It seemed ok, but he complained about it being prone to chipping if used more than gently, though I'm not sure what bevel it was sharpened to.

I don't mind crying once to pay for quality in a tool that will likely see a lot of varied used, but keep my budget in mind. Looking forward to hearing some suggestions and places to purchase from. Thanks in advance.

[Stewie Simpson]

Phillip; if you don't have the time to re-establish the bevels on the 1 1/2 western chisels you already own, forget the idea of buying a new Japanese chisel.

Have a look in the mirror to find your real problem.

Try and find an old tradesman who can teach you how to sharpen your tools.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I appreciate the advice Stewie. All the chisels I own I have refurbished from scratch and re-established the bevels on nearly all of them, so I'm quite familiar and practiced with the process. I'm not saying I know all the sharpening tricks, but I've got the basics down. That's part of the reason that I am looking for something different; at least something that has close to a flat back, and doesn't need much more than a honing on the stones to get started with. I know how long it takes without a grinder to start from scratch with chisels. Both the 1 1/2" witherby chisels I mentioned above I picked up from an estate sale and are in a state that will take me several hours (combined) that I don't really have in the foreseeable future. One day I will want to work on them and get them just how I want, but now isn't their time. That time will likely come when I find a nice grinder and tool rest to re-grind chisel bevels with. You pay for sharp tools one way or the other....sometimes you have more time than money and go that route (which I've done many times.) Other times you're willing to pay what it costs to be much closer to where you need to be to get started.

Perhaps a bit more background is in order...I work full time for a company that specializes in a hybrid timber framing/general contracting/new construction, and lately has included a handful of Japanese influenced custom woodwork in a remodel. I also do custom carpentry side jobs and do as much woodworking in my own house as time allows, between remodeling my own house with custom hardwood trim/woodwork and being with my kids. To say that I've got most of my time spoken for would be an understatement. I'm also in a time where I'm using my tools often and depend on them to make my living.

I'm not quite sure what led you to believe that I don't know how to sharpen my own tools or have a problem. Really just looking for chisel recommendations based on my criteria. Also, I don't understand how a new Japanese chisel would require more work in order to use than my neglected Witherby chisels that are in pretty rough shape at present.

[Stewie Simpson]

Phillip; the following is my current bench grinder set up with the Vicmarc 6 inch cbn wheels, and Woodcut Tool rests. Minus the grinder, it cost me au$600.00, not cheap, but a worthwhile investment if your after accurately within the hollow ground bevels, and want to avoid overheating the steel.

regards Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/bench%20grinder/_DSC0157_zpsrwpcyjir.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/bench%20grinder/_DSC0157_zpsrwpcyjir.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/bench%20grinder/_DSC0159_zpsatnwy36d.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/bench%20grinder/_DSC0159_zpsatnwy36d.jpg.html)

[Phillip Mitchell]

Looks like a great setup. One day I'll have something similar, but 'taint in the cards for me or my budget at the moment. How much does a grinder like that go for?

[Stewie Simpson]

Phillip; have a chat to Stanley Covington, he's a member on this forum, trade background, based in Japan. He's a user of Japanese Chisels.

Stewie;

[Mike Holbrook]

Stanley certainly has a great deal to offer, but he has been very busy lately and may not have time to respond. Brian Hoolcombe may have information to offer too, as he uses quite a few Japanese tools.

You may search for the term Tataki in relation to Japanese chisels as it often designates a chisel built for heavier use.

Some older terms may also come in handy, these from Toshio Odate's book on Japanese tools.
1) Chu-tataki-nomi (medium striking chisel) 2) Atsu-nomi (thick Chisel) 3) Uchinuki-nomi (strike through chisel) 4) hiro-nomi (wide chisel)

Good luck, would love to see what you end up with as I have designs on a few similar tools.

You might also check out Barr Specialty Tools here in the US. Barr forges specific heavy framing chisels that may work for the type work you mention.

[Mike Holbrook]

There are quite a few threads about CBN wheels, and grinders that people use them on in the archives here. I am using an inexpensive Delta, variable speed grinder currently and it seems to work. Baldor is one of the better grinders, but more money. Some like 6" wheels some like 8" and some use 10" wheels on a Tormek. All will work. Smaller CBN wheels are less money as you would expect, but they also make a slightly greater hollow, which you may or may not like.

Woodturners Wonders is a good source for CBN wheels.

My CBN wheels have made all my woodworking much more pleasurable as I can grind just about any bevel I want in a plane blade, chisel...in relatively short order with no worries about over heating the steel. I like hollow ground bevels for the ease of hand sharpening. The Japnaese do not like hollows in the faces of their chisels though.

[Brian Holcombe]

Good tataki can run about $150-$200 so within your budget, but they take time to setup, so maybe they're not the best choice in this situation.

Take a look at my website, where I have two links to chisel setup of the handle and ferrule that will give you a good idea of the time involved in proper setup.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/the-workshop/japanese-chisel-setup/

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/japanese-chisel-setup-kuchigane/

You need proper sharpening stones as well, what do you have available to you?

[Prashun Patel]

I second the rec to contact Stan Covington. He is very educational. I was close to purchasing a set from him, but any orders are custom made and you will be subject to the availability of his contracted blacksmiths. If you need it "today" he may not be the best purchase option.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Phillip

If you are after a timber framing chisel, contact Barr Tools (http://www.barrtools.com/). They are a USA company that uses Japanese technology in making their chisels. They specialise in timber framing chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

I don't very often take a chisel to the grinder. I have, but it sure is a waste of good steel. The hollow grind may justify it, but I prefer hand honing.

I have cleaned up an edge on a belt sander. I find it works pretty good.

[Pat Barry]

I don't very often take a chisel to the grinder. I have, but it sure is a waste of good steel. The hollow grind may justify it, but I prefer hand honing.

I have cleaned up an edge on a belt sander. I find it works pretty good.
There should be similar steel removed with either a belt sander or a grinder. It's really a function of the user. The hollow is fairly benign even with a 6 inch grinder wheel. I got my grinder at a garage sale for $25. It works great for reestablishing the primary bevel and material removal to removal assorted nicks and dings in the edge.

[Stanley Covington]

I'm in no rush, but would like to find a Japanese chisel that is durable (both in the sense of holding an edge and also in it's ability to be struck with a mallet), made with quality steel that can take a fine edge with proper technique and stones, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg (under $200 shipped to US.) I'm interested in 36mm because it is closest to 1 1/2" and that's the gap I have in my chisel collection. I actually have a couple of Witherby 1 1/2" chisels, but both need to be totally re-habbed with new bevels established, which is a lot of work that I don't have time for at the moment. All of my other timber framing chisels are old American steel (Witherby, Pexto, Union Tool, etc) which are great, but looking for something different and bit more refined for the 1 1/2", as it's a common go-to size in timber framing.

I will likely not be mortising by hand with this (or any other chisel) very much, if at all. I will use it for both paring and striking, but obviously need an edge (or at least a bevel angle) that can stand up to moderate striking. Mostly used in Doug Fir or various cedars, but white oak on occasion. I say this is for timber framing, but I'm sure if I like the chisel, it will cross over to finer woodworking as well, so not strictly timber framing.

I don't know very much about Japanese chisels, but have always been fascinated by them. The only Japanese chisel I've used much at all belongs to a old co-worker, who has one from Japan Woodworker....not sure which one it is from looking at their site. It seemed ok, but he complained about it being prone to chipping if used more than gently, though I'm not sure what bevel it was sharpened to.

I don't mind crying once to pay for quality in a tool that will likely see a lot of varied used, but keep my budget in mind. Looking forward to hearing some suggestions and places to purchase from. Thanks in advance.

Phillip:

It sounds like the smaller butt size chisel (known as "oire nomi" in Japan) is not what you need, but a more heavy-duty and longer "tataki nomi" (aka "atsunomi" as Mike pointed out). Basically the same chisel. Perfect for framing. This style will hold up very well under hard abuse. The neck is often made longer for cutting deeply into large timbers. I have done framing in Doug Fir myself, and am always shocked by how quickly it dulls edged tools. While harder, I have found white oak to be easier to cut large joints in than DF. In any case, you need a really sharp durable chisel to work such timbers efficiently.

Keep in mind that, while quality hand-forged Japanese chisels of the variety I would recommend will get very sharp and hold an edge for a comparatively long time, the cutting edge will be more brittle than a Western chisel. The structure of the Japanese chisel allows it to be made with a layer of very hard steel at the cutting edge. If a Western chisel was made to the same hardness, it would quickly break. But because of the hardness you need to avoid using it to cut concrete or drywall screws. While a Western chisel will become dull when subjected to this sort of abuse, the edge of a Japanese chisel will chip, necessitating a lot of work to get it back in shape.

In the current tool market in Japan, the number of professionals using chisels is decreasing while the number of amateurs is increasing. Amateurs don't know how to maintain or properly use a chisel and tend to decrease the bevel angle or abuse the chisel. Then, when it fails, they blame the tool and demand a refund. To deal with this plague of amateurs, sadly many blacksmiths are making their chisels softer/tougher with poorer edge retention ability. I dislike this and insist my chisels be made as hard as the best chisels of 30 years ago, beside being hand forged of White paper steel, of course.

The best Japanese chisels are made of Hitachi White Paper steel. There are other varieties such as Blue Paper steel and even a variety of Swedish steel which work very well too, and most people can't tell the difference.

A top-quality chisel should be hand-forged with a minimum of two heats. The crystalline structure of the steel is greatly improved through this labor-intensive process, but 98% of the chisels made in Japan nowadays are not hand-forged, but die forged, so caveat emptor. Die forging works well in a mass production situation, makes a decent tool, and looks just like a hand-forged product, but will not have the fine, evenly distributed carbides of hand-forged steel. Most folks can't tell the difference because they don't demand much of their chisels. From your description of your work, I think you would appreciate a high-quality tool.

But an excellent hand-forged chisel made of White Paper steel need not be expensive. I dislike paying a high price for a mediocre imitation product with a famous name or a fancy appearance, or both. Honest blacksmiths don't work that way, but distributors, wholesalers, and many retailers do.

And then there are levels of appearance. If you want a high-quality chisel, but can live without the beauty of hand filework, then the prices are very reasonable. If you want the same quality with a better appearance, they will cost a bit more, but of course no one works for free.

How do you find these chisels? You just need to know what to look for, do the research, speak, read, and write Japanese, buy/sharpen/test/break a lot of chisels of all varieties over 35 years, get to know the right blacksmiths, and build relationships. I'm going to see a couple of my favorite blacksmiths on September 10th.

Send me a PM if you want to know more.

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

I vouch for Stan's recommendation. After having tried many brands of mortise chisels Stan got me a set that work beautifully!

[Mike Holbrook]

I have a couple paring chisels I got through Stan. They are excellent and the price was more than reasonable for the quality. I bought workers not lookers and was surprised that they were still quite nice looking. I will be ordering more. I am trying to wait for Stan to get his store set up.

Even the carpenter's chisels from Barr Tools are very sturdy, built to take hard use. If you are in a hurry they might get you started. Highland Woodworking carries many of the Barr Tools, usually having them in stock.

[lowell holmes]

I have a 1 1/2" and a 2" timber framing chisels that are antiques. You can shave hair on your arms with either and you can aggressively chop edges, mortises, or shave surfaces with either of them.

What is your fascination with Japanese chisels? Traditional Woodworker has timber and log tools if you don't find what you want. They also have Japanese bench chisels.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies so far. As far as sharpening, I have personally have Shapton stones (1k, 4k, 8k) and a DMT extra coarse diamond stone that I use for quick, heavy metal removal (flattening backs, re-establishing bevels sometimes) I really like the Shaptons, but I'm sure there are better stones out there. At work, I have access to various waterstones and an older Tormek grinder, which I've used quite a bit when reworking old chisels. I find it's too slow for me to dramatically re-establish bevel angles with it (especially on wide framing chisels), though I do like honing hollow ground bevels, as it's pretty quick. There is a bench grinder there, but it's not currently being used much as the wheels are a bit rough, it's pretty high speed, and there isn't a reliable tool rest for things like chisels or planes irons.

I've read on this site and others that hollow ground bevels are frowned upon with the laminated steels in Japanese chisels. Anyone care to elaborate on the finer points of that one?

I've used Barr chisels enough to know that they are excellent quality and very durable. So far I've collected old American chisels for little money and refurbished many of them to be quite sharp. With this gap I'd like to try something different and if I'm going to drop $150 on a Barr, which I'm sure is more than worth it, I think I'd rather try a new avenue with the Japanese chisel.

Stanley - Thank you for sharing the knowledge you've amassed. I will send you a PM as I am certainly interested in high quality tools.

Brian/Stanley - I read your blog posts and certainly appreciate the photos and shared knowledge passed along. With a high quality chisel as mentioned above by Stanley, are those maintenance issues that arise as the chisel is used moderately, or things that need to be done after purchase before you can use it to its fullest potential? Do these quality chisels need more than a honing upon purchase to be useful and sharp?

[Brian Holcombe]

That's for setup, before use and for hard use chisels like Tataki it would be best to follow along with that very closely to ensure that they perform to their fullest potential.

When you take Stan's advice you benefit greatly. You can spend years figuring out how to keep your chisels in prime shape or skip right to success.

They need honing and back flattening. Flat bevels are best and I would not hollow grind a Tataki. The iron is the support, if you remove it the edge may damage badly.

[Stewie Simpson]

Phillip; you should find the following of interest on sharpening Japanese chisels.

https://www.hidatool.com/image/data/pdf/Sharpening%20Japanese%20Chisels.pdf

[Stewie Simpson]

Note the reference within the attachment to
never break the wire edge off, because that will leave the cutting edge rough and unable to reach the peak of its capability. That principle is not restricted to eastern style chisels, and by its nature extends to the treatment of plane irons. The wire edge needs to be worked free, to allow it to separate of its own accord, utilizing progressively finer honing media.