Bench chisel handles

[Derek Cohen]

I couldn't resist the opportunity that Steve presented a day or so ago, when he posted pictures of chisels made by Larry Williams and Don McConnell. We had been discussing the ergonomics of mortice chisels, when these bench chisel handles popped up. Rather than sidetrack the discussion, I thought a new thread would be better.

What I will do is present a few different bench chisel handles, and say what I like or dislike about them. I am hoping that others with a similar interest will comment on this, post other handles, and discuss theirs.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/B_zpsmqj1fydm.jpg

Left to right: Marples, Veritas, Blue Spruce, Koyamaichi, shopmade replacement for Stanley 750, original handle for 750.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/A_zpstnphxkli.jpg

The Marples is a terrific looking handle, and it looks like it should be comfortable. I know George swears by his. But I find that they lack something to push against. This will lead to fatigue.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/D_zpsblzxpk9m.jpg

The Larry Williams design that Steve likes so much is actually very similar to the Marples, only octagonal. This should offer better registration, but no more control than the Marples ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/Larry%20Williams%20chisels%202_zpsjmxdvyny.jpg

The Don McConnell design that Steve also linked to differs slightly. These are carving chisels, so shorter. The rear is rounded more, and it looks like they are designed to be pushed with the palm.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/c259979d-dd90-4257-ac09-e8dadeb8ce01_zpscejrdkzm.png

The Veritas have good length and a solid rest against which to press a thumb. The sides are slightly flattened for registration. The chisel handle is securely gripped and does not fatigue.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/G_zpspmusdrug.jpg

The Blue Spruce is arguably the best looking handle on the planet. It is very similar to the Veritas, just a little shorter. I prefer the extra length of the latter - but I have larger hands.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/C_zpshzgkskfd.jpg

The Koyamaichi lacks the thumb rest, however it is comfortable to push with the heel of the palm. Of course, this design is meant for using with a gennou, but it is more comfortable than one might expect (not comfortable to want to use it as a parer).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/H_zpsbz1miyli.jpg

The shopmade handle came before the Veritas, and is similar in shape, but longer. It lies between a bench chisel and a paring chisel. The longer handle offers a little more precision (slight the hand back a little to make fine adjustments), but is less able to be pushed from the palm.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/F_zpshf0v3y9p.jpg

The Stanley 750 handle I found too short. It nestles in the palm, but is too small for my hand. It may suit someone else better. (apology for the poor photo) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/I_zpssmt1hmip.jpg

Your thoughts and comments ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Cherry]

I gotta admit, when I started looking for chisels I bought a LN 1/2" and a Veritas 1/4". I ultimately decided to buy all the LN's but I can't bring myself to sell that Veritas... It wouldn't take much and I'll have a set of Veritas too.
I also have a Veritas 2"butt chisel. You like those?

[Derek Cohen]

Why did you buy LNs? Because you liked them in your hand, or because of their reputation?

Butt chisels? I really do not see the point of them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

This is a good reason for me to get out to the shop today and take some pictures.

Only a small fraction of my chisels were purchased new. Many of them came in lots or were found at yard sales and all of the other places where rust accumulates for the hunter.

The odd selection of short chisels that have come my way are my version of butt chisels. They are used often when it is advantageous to be closer to the work.

jtk

[Steve Voigt]

[snip]

The Larry Williams design that Steve likes so much is actually very similar to the Marples, only octagonal. This should offer better registration, but no more control than the Marples ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/Larry%20Williams%20chisels%202_zpsjmxdvyny.jpg

The Don McConnell design that Steve also linked to differs slightly. These are carving chisels, so shorter. The rear is rounded more, and it looks like they are designed to be pushed with the palm.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/c259979d-dd90-4257-ac09-e8dadeb8ce01_zpscejrdkzm.png


[snip]


Derek,

Nice write up with lots of nice pics. Thank you.

Just to clarify, these are the type of handles I prefer:

343076

The first and third from left are bench chisel handles, about 4 1/2" long. You can push from the heel, or choke up a little for mor delicate operations. They are nice to use and easy to make. The design is adaptable, as shown by the second from left. This Jennings & Griffin paring chisel is about 14" with handle. I also use these handles for some of my saw files, as seen on the far right.

By the way, I very much like the design with the spot for the thumb to push on, like the Veritas or Blue Spruce, or the Stanley 750 (though I agree those are too short, even for my small hands). But compared to tang chisels, the design puts the thumb quite far from the edge; you've got 1/2" - 1" of handle above that point, then the socket, then the blade. It is a very different feel from a tanged chisel.

[Patrick Chase]

Butt chisels? I really do not see the point of them.


They're compact and therefore nice when you bring your tools to a worksite, or for use in tight spaces (though the latter is admittedly infrequent in practice).

They also economize on steel, which is probably why you can only get >1" PMV-11 chisels in butt configuration.

[Patrick Chase]

By the way, I very much like the design with the spot for the thumb to push on, like the Veritas or Blue Spruce, or the Stanley 750 (though I agree those are too short, even for my small hands). But compared to tang chisels, the design puts the thumb quite far from the edge; you've got 1/2" - 1" of handle above that point, then the socket, then the blade. It is a very different feel from a tanged chisel.

A few comments:



The Veritas chisels have the handle flange (widest part of the handle) ~1/4" above the rim of the socket, or basically as close as they could make it. I suspect they did that to mitigate exactly the issue you raise. Blue Spruce chose to include a tapered handle section between the ferrule and the handle flange, though, so they clearly could have place the flange closer to the blade if they'd wanted. On the plus side their ferrule is shorter than the Veritas' socket, so the overall blade-to-flange distance is pretty similar.
There's no law that says you have to keep your entire hand above the widest part of the handle. When I'm using my Veritas chisels and want my hand closer to the edge I pinch the socket between my thumb and forefinger, and rest my ring finger just above the handle flange. The fact that the little bit of taper in the handle below the flange and the socket form a ~continuous conical surface makes this grip comfortable. The Blue Spruce is similarly continuous below the flange. It's almost as thought they, like, thought this stuff through :-).
IMO we really shouldn't be relying on the handle for precision control, so I question the importance of hand<->blade distance. That's what your other hand (on the blade) is for.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm not sure I've ever wanted a register on a bench chisel. I have short handle blue spruce paring chisels that I really like the handles on, very comfortable.

I also have these Konobu paring chisels which have wonderful handles.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/A6E62E44-1AAE-4C74-AB94-2D361A3DF611_zpsjhkcdabg.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

These are a few of the handles which are comfortable in my hands:

343112

At the left is a Stanley #440 series (iirc) with original handle. The leather washers were missing when it came to me. Next is a Buck Brothers chisel with original handle. The top of the handle was a bit mushroomed. It has since been trimmed a bit. This is one of my favorite chisels to use for some reason. It has about a 15º bevel which is great for paring.

The next two are Witherby chisels followed by a Karpenter, made by the same Winsted Tool Works that made Witherby chisels. These three have the basic style of handle mostly made when one of my chisels needs a new handle. The round top is comfortable to push against with the palm of my hand and the ring at the base keeps my hand from sliding when pushing. The last two are marked P.S.&W. and Union Hardware Company. Both are nice chisels. The larger handle is sometimes persuaded with a tap from a mallet. Both have rings at the base to keep the hand from slipping beyond the handle.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

Steve's chisels are the most like mine. Don's carving tools are nice, but quite fat for my taste. Larry's tools are a lot like the Swiss made carving tools, which are popular among professional carvers. I have a few but prefer a straight taper octagon.

It is ludicrous to suggest that 18th century tools like this lack control or induce fatigue. Insulting to suggest that professionals like this did not know what they were doing. For myself I have sometimes carved full time for months at a time using this type of tool. I am reminded of ten years ago when guys were trying to tell Todd Hughes that 18th century workers didn't know how to use planes.

I would be embarrassed to have a Lee Valley, Blue Spruce , or Stanley socket chisel on my bench.

[Steve Voigt]

Warren, I'm glad you appreciate my chisels but I sure can't agree with your last sentence. Those chisels may not be to your taste but they (speaking now of the LV and Blue Spruce) are made with high quality control standards and good materials, and a lot of thought went into their design. The people who run those companies are serious about what they do and unstinting in their support of the woodworking community in general. I don't have any personal experience with the new generation of Stanley, but the old Stanley are solid mass produced tools and generations of folks did great work with them. After all, it's the woodworker, not the tool.

[Steve Voigt]

Brian,


343120

Are those…no…they can't be…

:p (just kidding, I'm a sinner too)

[David farmer]

I guess it's not really a handle shape issue but I find chisels that are set with the handle nearly parallel with the back of the blade much less ergonomic in use.
Just a few degrees off parallel makes a big difference to me. It seems most western chisels are made this way. One thing that keeps me from buying a LV or LN premium chisel is not enough handle angle. Someday I'll get the courage/knowledge to buy one and try heating and bending it up high near the handle, like a Japanese chisel.
343119

(My first post picture. Can anyone tell me why my pictures are so reduced in size?)

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian,

343118

Are those…no…they can't be…

:p (just kidding, I'm a sinner too)

hah, You are supposed to be distracted by the trees in that Forrest!

[Jim Koepke]

(My first post picture. Can anyone tell me why my pictures are so reduced in size?)

They are displayed as a thumbnail. Click on it and it should become a larger image.

One thing a thread like this does reinforce is people are different. Some will find a particular handle very comfortable where others will want something different. There is no right or wrong about it. It is all personal preference and comfort.

jtk

[David farmer]

Thanks for the posting help.:)

[Pat Barry]

I would be embarrassed to have a Lee Valley, Blue Spruce , or Stanley socket chisel on my bench.

Why in the world do you find tools from these makers embarrassing? Must be because they would be too new?

[Derek Cohen]

Steve's chisels are the most like mine. Don's carving tools are nice, but quite fat for my taste. Larry's tools are a lot like the Swiss made carving tools, which are popular among professional carvers. I have a few but prefer a straight taper octagon.

It is ludicrous to suggest that 18th century tools like this lack control or induce fatigue. Insulting to suggest that professionals like this did not know what they were doing. For myself I have sometimes carved full time for months at a time using this type of tool. I am reminded of ten years ago when guys were trying to tell Todd Hughes that 18th century workers didn't know how to use planes.

I would be embarrassed to have a Lee Valley, Blue Spruce , or Stanley socket chisel on my bench.

Warren, without explanation, your comments make no sense.

Explain how the design for your handle works for you, if you can. Does the the design of the handle add control, and how? The point of this thread is to learn about handles, and how to build good ergonomics into a design. This aids in either what to buy, or what to make or modify.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I guess it's not really a handle shape issue but I find chisels that are set with the handle nearly parallel with the back of the blade much less ergonomic in use.
Just a few degrees off parallel makes a big difference to me. It seems most western chisels are made this way. One thing that keeps me from buying a LV or LN premium chisel is not enough handle angle. Someday I'll get the courage/knowledge to buy one and try heating and bending it up high near the handle, like a Japanese chisel.
343119

(My first post picture. Can anyone tell me why my pictures are so reduced in size?)

Hi David

My post was restricted to bench chisels, however paring chisel design are a current interest of mine.

A paring chisel is for precise work. It is not about power (such as a chisel that is forced through wood with a hammer); it is about making fine, thin cuts to tune a joint and pushed only. These were the chisels of choice of patternmakers.

Traditionally, paring chisels are long to enable movements to create slight changes of direction. In Western chisels the design is a long blade and a short handle. The Japanese, however, have a different take on this, using a long handle and a short blade. Both attempt to do the same thing, that is, create a chisel that offers much feedback. The Japanese do this by keeping the blade short, which keeps the weight down. In my opinion, I think that many have misunderstood the thin blade of Western paring chisels to only offer feedback through their flex. I believe that the thinness is way of keeping the mass down, and it is the lower mass that creates feedback. (Incidentally, Japanese paring chisels are referred to as slicks, but a Western slick is not a paring chisel.)


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview_html_m44904f08.jpg


Then there are others where the handle is offset so that the blade can be kept flat to the surface, or just closer to the surface, than one could with a coplanar blade/handle. An example of these are my own Kiyohisa chisels.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Kiyohisa/12.jpg


These have offset blades. They are not coplanar with the handle.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Kiyohisa/aaf531ed-3c39-486b-a197-51b0c6c3af78_zpsc9d6y6zp.jpg


This offset allows more of the blade to be used, creating more reference surface, but without requiring a longer blade to do so. Equals more control.

This is not the same as a cranked neck chisel, where the handle is at a much higher angle to create a higher degree of clearance.

Comparing the paring with a bench chisel, the straight Kiyohisa handles do not have something to push against. This is not how they achieve control. Control comes from the length of the chisel, such that small increments at the handle are translated into very fine adjustments at the edge.

With regard to bending the handles of a bench chisel to get the effect, I have doubts that this will work as well as you hope.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

Warren, without explanation, your comments make no sense.

Explain how the design for your handle works for you, if you can. Does the the design of the handle add control, and how? The point of this thread is to learn about handles, and how to build good ergonomics into a design. This aids in either what to buy, or what to make or modify.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ignoring the rest of Warren's comments, I had the same reaction he did to Larry's chisels: The handle configuration and size looks *very* similar to Pfeil Swiss carving tools. I personally like that layout, but handles are probably among the most individual preferences in all of woodworking, so maybe that's just me.

Of course the obvious counterargument is that carving tools are not used in exactly the same manner as chisels, and I think there's some validity to that.

[Stewie Simpson]

Why is a Blue Spruce Dovetail Paring Chisel being included in the opening post when the topic being discussed is bench chisels. And why are all the chisels in the opening post being judged on comfort using paring grip.

[Jim Koepke]

Why is a Blue Spruce Dovetail Paring Chisel being included in the opening post when the topic being discussed is bench chisels. And why are all the chisels in the opening post being judged on comfort using paring grip.

My concept of what constitutes a bench chisel is a wide category. It would not occur to me that a paring chisel didn't fit into the bench chisel category.

My understanding of the thread was for folks to show their chisel handles and if they desired show some in use images. My work has been cut down for a while and may be down awhile longer.

As far as the octagonal handles, they do help prevent smaller chisels from rolling across the bench. If the vertexes of the angles line up between the joints in ones hand they can be a great help with alignment. Again, this comes down to what a person is used to and what feels good in their hands.

Derek,

On the Stanley chisel with the paring handle, it reminds me somewhat of the handles on the Buck Brothers chisels that are so much to my liking for paring. Many chisels have a similar shaping at the base. What works for one works for many.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

Jim, the ergonomics of a paring chisel are uniquely different to that of a chisel that is designed to be struck with a wooden mallet or hammer in an upright position.

[steven c newman]

Maybe something like this?
343148
Then again, these were in use....

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, the ergonomics of a paring chisel are uniquely different to that of a chisel that is designed to be struck with a wooden mallet or hammer in an upright position.

That is true. Though some of my chisels with hoops have been used for paring. The hoops seemed more like a double thickness tin foil than an actual hoop for protecting a handle receiving hammer blows.

Some of my chisels with home made handles do receive blows from a mallet. If the handle breaks, another can be made.

jtk

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

I will muddy the water by suggesting that the grips you show are unhelpful.

I control a chisel with the thumb and forefinger of the left hand. (I am right handed.) A pinching grip with the thumb on top.

This controls position and tilt, say for slotting into a knife line.

All I want from the right hand is shove or push, which comes from legs via the palm!

I try not to grip the handle at all, just finger tips resting on the shaft.

This approach applies to horizontal paring.

Much the same logic applies to chopping. The left hand positions and engages the knife line, it then moves to the top of the chisel, but does not grip. I just resists the diving tendency. Grip might twist the edge out of the line.

Of course some people like vertical paring, where there is considerable grip, but I do not like this technique.

These techniques may be seen in my chisel use DVD.

Best wishes,
David

[Derek Cohen]

I control a chisel with the thumb and forefinger of the left hand. (I am right handed.) A pinching grip with the thumb on top.

This controls position and tilt, say for slotting into a knife line....

... I try not to grip the handle at all, just finger tips resting on the shaft.

This approach applies to horizontal paring.

Hi David

I agree that we need to use our legs and lower body as the source of power. This was one of the factors I raised and we discussed and agreed upon in discussing handplanes.

Still, we need to hold tools, and the way we do so determines whether the power is transmitted with optimal control and efficiency.

You do as I do, that is, use the thumb and forefinger. All my photos illustrate this ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Handles/C_zpshzgkskfd.jpg

I do not grip a chisel in a "death grip", but just firmly, sometimes quite lightly (the paring chisels especially).

In writing this, it is possible to simplistically separate two group of handles for bench chisels: those with and those without rests for the thumb. All I am saying is that the thumb rest is a way of transferring power. Without it one does need to grip the handle more tightly (and hence it becomes more fatiguing).

Keep in mind that this is just my opinion I am defending here. The question is, does the thumb rest actually do as I believe, or how do others exert control?

Of course, I have chisels handles without the thumb rest. They are easier to make than those with thumb rests.

David, I shall revisit your DVD, which I have.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

I am rushing to a class, but for me thumb and forefinger are at the sharp end!! not the handle.

David

[Derek Cohen]

An equally quick reply, David.

The non-dominant hand guides the blade - agreed - while the dominant hand directs the force. Both hands have a task, but it is the hand that holds the handle - and how it holds the handle - that is the focus.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Japanese paring chisel, known as a tsuki nomi (thrust chisel), the maker is Konobu. I put a marking knife in the photos for size.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_4500.jpg

Japanese carving gouge, for use with a genno, by Konobu.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_4501.jpg

Oiire nomi (top) in the mentori shape by Kikuhiromaru and Shinogi nomi by Akio Tasai

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_4507.jpg

Mokoumachi nomi (Mortising chisel) by Yamahiro

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_4503.jpg

Ichou-gata nomi (Fishtail chisel) by Kikuhiromaru

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_4502.jpg

Carving gouge by Auriou

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_4504.jpg

Test pin, I included this for another example of an octagon shaped handle

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_4506.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

Nice photos, Brian. Nice chisels!

Can you say something about the ergonomics of their handles. How do they facilitate control when held? How do you hold them when chopping, and when paring? What are your observations about their differences in use?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Is Ichou gata nomi different from bachi nomi, Brian?

[Phil Mueller]

Brian, can I be in your will?
Oh wait, you're younger than I am. I guess that won't work out so well.Hmm...even your little tool rest looks like perfect S4S.

[Kees Heiden]

343164

Some paring chisels. At the top for comparison a Japanese chisel. I don't really like chisels with a ferule at the top for anything other then chopping.

Then two oldies, early 19th century. I sure do like the small one allready, allthough I haven't used it much yet. The long narrow chisel still needs a lot of work. The end of the handle is quite seriously bruissed from a hammer.

And at the bottom two large boxwood handles, probablt late 19th/early 20th century. This is a handle I certainly like too. Feels very smooth in the hand and the palm of the hand and the large circumference allows a very possitive grip.

But I must confess that I am not too critical in the handle department. I can get used to almost anything.

[Brian Holcombe]

Prashun, I believe they are the same, but maybe Stan can comment with more specifics as their may be a subtle difference.

Thanks Derek, certainly!

I actually find all of them comfortable and intuitive to use, otherwise I would get rid of them. I use bench chisels to pare with on occasion, and so I am not bothered by having a hoop.

The extremely long tsuki nomi handles are nice to work with because I can really put my weight into them, everyone comments that one hand goes on the blade but I don't always find that to be the case, it depends on the situation if I'm upright and pushing against a stop then I usually have one hand on the handle and one on the blade but if I'm pressing against the floor (with a sacrificial board underneath) then usually two handles on the handle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llkcMH8qHPI

When I am using bench chisels, I only use the handle and do not use my hand on the blade (unless paring with them).

Hah! Thanks Phil!

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Brian

That demos the points made by David and myself about the use of two hands. We can't see your legs and torso observe the power transfer - David shows this well in his DVD. Would you like to put on a fetching outfit and do it again? :)

Unfortunately, the video does not add to using a Western bench chisel. Do you have any? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Lol! I'm sure I'll have an opportunity soon enough so I'll take another at some point.

I don't own a western bench chisel, only blue spruce paring chisels which I use for odds and ends. They're handy for tight spaces.

[Steve Voigt]

I will muddy the water by suggesting that the grips you show are unhelpful.

I control a chisel with the thumb and forefinger of the left hand. (I am right handed.) A pinching grip with the thumb on top.

This controls position and tilt, say for slotting into a knife line.

All I want from the right hand is shove or push, which comes from legs via the palm!

I try not to grip the handle at all, just finger tips resting on the shaft.

This approach applies to horizontal paring.

Much the same logic applies to chopping. The left hand positions and engages the knife line, it then moves to the top of the chisel, but does not grip. I just resists the diving tendency. Grip might twist the edge out of the line.

Of course some people like vertical paring, where there is considerable grip, but I do not like this technique.

These techniques may be seen in my chisel use DVD.





I am rushing to a class, but for me thumb and forefinger are at the sharp end!! not the handle.


Reading these quotes, it occurs to me that chisel handle preferences will vary a lot depending on how we actually hold and use the chisel. In David's approach, which involves things like switching hands and gripping the blade, the handle seems relatively unimportant; it almost doesn't matter what the handle design is.

However, I think some of these techniques are problematic. It is very slow to use both hands to position the chisel for chopping, as described above. When I watch fast, fluent woodworkers, they never do this. I admit I do it sometimes, but I regard it as a bad habit to be broken rather than an acceptable technique.

Similarly, holding the chisel at the tip, while it gives good control, gets very tiring if we do it for long sessions. It's also harder to keep the chisel perfectly perpendicular; slight movements at the tip translate into large angular variations. Holding at the handle is a lot less tiring and more precise in terms of angle. It's hard to criticize this technique too much because lots of great woodworkers do it (Frank Klausz, for example), so YMMV, but speaking just for myself I regard it as another bad habit to be broken.

Concerning paring, I don't see how one can avoid vertical paring. How would you make an odd-sized mortise, or a through mortise? I pare both vertically and horizontally all the time and regard them both as essential.

All of these things are hard to learn and require a lot of practice (I'm still practicing), just like shooting a ball or playing an instrument in tune. Fortunately chiseling is easier than both of those pursuits, so we don't need to be Steph Curry or Yo-Yo Ma to do good work. But, getting back to the point, I think the more you use the handle, the more the handle will matter.

[Allan Speers]

An equally quick reply, David.

The non-dominant hand guides the blade - agreed - while the dominant hand directs the force. Both hands have a task, but it is the hand that holds the handle - and how it holds the handle - that is the focus.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You know, I never thought about it before, and I realize it doesn't affect handle choice very much, but when paring I always guide with my dominant hand. (Not so when chopping.) It seems more precise.

Then again, I'm not a great w-worker, so there you go :o

[david charlesworth]

Vertical paring I hate. One is in such a poor position to judge squareness.

I was taught not to mess with the sides of mortices, (apart from paring a few whiskers), in fact this was seen as the fast track to purgatory or some such, as the dimension, which comes directly from the chisel size will be upset!!

When horizontal paring the handle is in my palm, and no more than the lightest fingertips touch the handle sides. Virtually no grip at all.

David

[david charlesworth]

Brian sent us a splendid video of his left hand grip, (doing exactly what I do) but no sign of his right hand.

What is he hiding? ~;-)#

David

[glenn bradley]

Butt chisels? I really do not see the point of them.

I have better control with a butt chisel and will use them for detail work when possible. This could be due to the fact that I have the wrist strength of a 12 year old ;-)

[Brian Holcombe]

David,

A very complicated system of ropes and pulleys operate the other side of that chisel :D

[Brian Holcombe]

I forgot that I took this video which better shows paring.


https://youtu.be/GvZigwtPkh8

[david charlesworth]

Ropes and pulleys sound like the way forward!!

I think your right hand is similar, power from the palm and fingertips to steady?

Best,
David

[Brian Holcombe]

Absolutely, power from the palm and fingertips to steady. I like those tapered handles for that reason, easy to grip and a good sized contact area.

cheers
Brian

[Mark Gibney]

Here's my contribution to the thread - I picked this 3/4" chisel up at a swap meet for a few dollars, turned a new handle for it (the original was about 3" long) and put a 22* bevel on it. I love it for paring. The handle is big and easy to control.

American connoisseurs will recognize the mark of excellence from the second photo!

343253343254

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

Thank you for the second video, this one of your right hand.

Although this is using a paring rather than a bench chisel (which is the topic), a few observations immediately come to mind.

The first is that I do not see anything different from the way either David or I might hold the same chisel - support with the non- dominant hand and pushing with the dominant hand. However, you appear to push mainly with your arms and shoulders, and not the hips. If you watched David's video, you would see him rocking forward into the chisel, with arms held more firmly.

The other comment is that the chisel is held at the very end, at the base, and pushed with your palm. Would you do the same if the handle was short, ala a bench chisel? This straight, long handle is typical of a Japanese slick, but imagine it was shorter and a bench chisel handle - it lacks the thumb rest. Does this change the way you would hold the handle, or is this the way you would use it anyway?

I meant to respond to Steve, but have been sidetracked by my day job. In brief, I agree that there are likely to be as many ways to hold a bench chisel as designs for bench chisel handles.

With regard vertical paring, it is a method that invites limited control. I would rather use a Japanese bench chisel and a gennou. Alternatively, I would treat the vertical as horizontal, and bench over to do the work. Using the body to power up the chisel now comes from the torso (not the arms) by pressing the chisel into the chest or shoulder and bending forward.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

It depends on the work being done, for the second video I did not want to overkill the push and break out the backside grain so I use my arms to work the chisel in a circular motion and shear the grain at a skew. For the first video you can't see it but I'm using things and practically stretched out in a lunge position as I peel off those 1/8" thick cross grain shavings.

I'm not sure that I would want a thumb rest, I like to use the furthest extent of the handle so that small changes at the bevel are only the result of large changes at the end of the handle.

[Steve Voigt]

Although this is using a paring rather than a bench chisel (which is the topic), a few observations immediately come to mind.

The first is that I do not see anything different from the way either David or I might hold the same chisel - support with the non- dominant hand and pushing with the dominant hand. However, you appear to push mainly with your arms and shoulders, and not the hips. If you watched David's video, you would see him rocking forward into the chisel, with arms held more firmly.


The whole obsession with pushing from the legs or hips is getting really over done. Everyone will get to a point where their arms get sore, and at that point they'll figure out they need to involve the bigger muscles. But the idea that every motion must come from the legs is just not right. We push a wheelbarrow with our legs because it's a low-skill operation. But paring is (at least some of the time) a delicate, high-skill operation. The more an operation requires skill and dexterity, the more our arms will dominate. If someone is always locking his arms and shoving from the legs, there's no subtlety, no opportunity to make sensitive adjustments on the fly. The same is true of planing. There is a lot of subtly and discernment to planing well, something we will never experience if we are locking our whole upper body and "walking the plane along" because we're scared we might get carpal tunnel or a sore forearm or something.

[david charlesworth]

Steve,

I have to disagree. If a paring chisel cut goes to nothing, as when tenting in a half lap, it can be stopped in a controlled manner if the legs are employed.

If the arms only are used it is as if there are no brakes and the chisel goes shooting through, in an uncontrolled manner.

David

[Trevor Goodwin]

If the arms only are used it is as if there are no brakes and the chisel goes shooting through, in an uncontrolled manner.

David

I do not agree with this. Your arms and upper body can brake a movement, there are many ways to make controlled paring cuts. You can pare sitting down on a stool to get closer to your work, here the legs are out of the picture, but controlled cuts can be made. Whilst the dominant hand provides the force in the forwards direction, the non-dominant hand limits the amount that is transferred to the cutting edge, often with a finger under the chisel pressing against the work.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm in David's camp here. The power comes from the body and not the arms. The arms and hands simply guide the chisel.

Here are two pictures from David's video on chisel use. This the first one he is leaning into the work, but is yet to make the cut. His elbows are tucked in, locking his arm down. He is balanced to rock from the hips ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Technique/Charlesworth1_zpsqqorhgxo.jpg

In the next photo, he rocks forward (you can see that he is lower by the position of his head against the window) and makes the cut. The arm remains locked. He does not push the arm forward. It is his body that moves ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Technique/Charlesworth2_zpswxeiffgz.jpg

Now here is Jim Kingshott making a vertical cut into a mortice. In the first photo he positions the chisel in the line, then leans forward and supports the end of the handle with his shoulder/chest ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Technique/Kingshott1_zpsbvhuaoxs.jpg

He then leans forward, pushing down with his shoulder/chest. His hands only guide the chisel ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Technique/Kingshott2_zpssgwlnovi.jpg

The technique of pushing with the shoulder was one advocated by Adam Cherubini, who cited Moxon here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Ah, that perfect world where every paring cut is level or plumb and every planning stroke is right at the edge of the bench.
Jim

[Stewie Simpson]

The gentle movements of tai chi reduce stress and offer other health benefits. :D

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Technique/Charlesworth2_zpswxeiffgz.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

It depends on the work being done, in the first video I'm lunging forward, in the second if you look closely I'm pivoting the edge to sheer off the end grain using the left hand as a pivot point and right hand to work the handle. I don't need to employ my legs in this action.

In addition to using your body correctly, it is important to use your tools effectively, no need to push into the side of that end grain when I can rotate the chisel and it will sheer the end grain without much physical effort.

[Phil Mueller]

You may all chuckle a bit on this, but I actully find the SHAPE of the Irwin/Marples handles most comfortable when paring...not so much chopping. The dimensions and double sculpting with thumb support fits my hand well. Need to make a few wooden ones to try on other chisels.

343275. 343276

[Warren Mickley]

I do agree with you, Brian. When we have done a lot of paring work we use many different techniques. We don't always set up individual cuts in the vise, stand and make sure our feet and arms are right and carefully lean into the cut and then stand back and then say "Ah, what a lovely cut!". We use different grips and different stances for different situations, and in the case of carving, often several in the same minute. As James Pallas suggested, not quite a perfect world.

I am reminded of a lawyer who thought he was a "sharpening guru", teaching classes. He insisted that the whole body had to sway with every stroke in order to sharpen a chisel. But if you are making 40 back and forth strokes in a dozen seconds or so, swaying the body at that pace is unreasonable.

[glenn bradley]

Ah, that perfect world where every paring cut is level or plumb and every planning stroke is right at the edge of the bench.
Jim

They are in the minority but, best for demonstration. There was a guy I golfed with who was writing a book on "recovery golf"; all about how to get out of the hard spots. Maybe we need a book on best-techniques in less than ideal conditions for the bench.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Warren, this reminds me of when I was learning how to TIG weld as a teenager and I had gotten a point where I could make a nice weld. At that point my father said to clamp the piece on the underside of the bench then lay on the floor and weld. I made a mess of it, then he proceeded to make a beautiful weld while upside down. Eventually I learned to overcome this but the lesson stuck with me. In his career he found so often that he had to work in situations which were less than ideal.

Often times I can setup an ideal at the bench, but if I'm working on something on the floor or on a nearly finished piece it's likely I'll be working in an awkward position. With the caveat that sometimes working on the floor is actually an advantage.

[Derek Cohen]

Breaking the rule is best done once you have mastered the rule. Without a sense of what constitutes good technique, what will you build on?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree, just pointing out that my video was not intended to show ideal technique but simply show what I had been doing on a cabinet. I'm sure David runs into awkward spots as well and I certainly appreciate his efforts in showing ideal technique.

I understand that posting my video to show my using a chisel of course brings up style and technique, so the comments are by no means out of bounds but its also fair for me to rein them in a bit by saying....'wait a minute, I'm not setup showing ideal'.

I have found that the points James and Warren have commented on to be accurate for my work as well, very often I'm working in awkward situations and it is worth mentioning that to level out the comments before we run completely down the path of 'ideal body mechanics' once more.

[James Pallas]

I think that it is a good lessen to get the feel of paring by practice in good positions. In reality you will find yourself in many positions, i.e. When Brian pared his finger recesses on the butlers desk. My feeling is just like learning to weld, you start out on the flat but in reality you must do the same quality upside down when you have to. That is all accomplished by the dexterity we have in the joints of our hands and arms.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

I'm in David's camp here. The power comes from the body and not the arms. The arms and hands simply guide the chisel.

I think everybody here (incl Steve) agrees that serious power should ideally come from the core. His point wasn't that that isn't the right answer (it is), it's that we shouldn't be excessively dogmatic about these things and flog people for deviating. Every rule has exceptions, even this one.

For example, do you make all of your carving cuts from your core? Keep in mind that there's nontrivial crossover between some of those and "detail" chisel work.

Also, videos represent people "on their best behavior" and attempting to demonstrate proper technique to their students. I bet if we had a webcam in David's shop we'd see some hand involvement when appropriate/harmless.

[James Pallas]

I got off topic a little, sorry. Here are a couple of photos about handles. I like heavier handles because I can't grip well with my thumbs anymore. The Stanley's, Pfiels, and the smaller Narex paring don't work well for me. I like the Mifers, the Narex and even the plastic Buck Bros. I can get those into my palm and grip the fat part and push without stressing the thumbs.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

There was a guy I golfed with who was writing a book on "recovery golf"; all about how to get out of the hard spots.

I can't resist asking: Was he any good at chipping out of bunkers etc?

[Patrick Chase]

Breaking the rule is best done once you have mastered the rule. Without a sense of what constitutes good technique, what will you build on?


Now this I wholeheartedly agree with. You have to really know the rule to recognize the true exceptions.

[Pat Barry]

Single most important rule about using a chisel is to make sure that when and if the tool slips you don't end up drving the edge into yourself somehow. DAMHIKT, but I'm sure everyone has experienced this from time to time.

[steven c newman]

Like this?343326barely bounced off my hand...

[david charlesworth]

When cutting end grain, I find that many beginners want to stand upright, close to the vice, then bend the back, and try to push a chisel with the arms.

Once at a show, I pushed a 5/16" chisel into my palm. (Nothing to do with woodwork, just carelessly removing covers). Straight to A & E where it transpired that I had exposed a tendon but not nicked it. Returned to show and was rightly embarrassed by ex students saying " you told us not to do that!"

Someone mentioned golf. I used to play a lot with my father and have a hole in one tie. Pure chance!

David

[allen long]

I am reminded of a lawyer who thought he was a "sharpening guru", teaching classes. He insisted that the whole body had to sway with every stroke in order to sharpen a chisel. But if you are making 40 back and forth strokes in a dozen seconds or so, swaying the body at that pace is unreasonable.

I believe that would be called Dancing!

[Trevor Goodwin]

St. Roy on paring:

https://youtu.be/Th6Cu0sqhjs?t=15m25s

[Derek Cohen]

Trevor, he must have watched Jim Kingshott as well :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

Good technique for a long chisel.

I feel it might have gone slightly better if the work had been clamped or dogged to the bench top.

David