Matsumura vs Kunikei ?

[Oskar Sedell]

Hi all!

I'm about to order a couple of japanese chisels. My local tool dealer (fine-tools.com) where I usually satisfy my tools cravings carry two lines of chisels that I'm looking at: Matsumura "Koshimitsu" (various kinds) and Ikeda "Kunikei" (bench chisels/oire nomi). Both are white paper steel no 2.

Anyone here with experience using these, preferably both, and would like to give their opinion/comparison? Pros and cons, problems or virtues? price vs. steel quality?

I know I'm quite limited when asking about chisels only from Dieter Schmid. Ideally I can order chisels together with other stuff from him, since I've only had nice service from them, and fast and cheap shipping. If there are comparable/better deals in europe I'm interested in that as well.

My interest lies in a narrow dovetail chisel, a pretty wide mortice chisel and a wide (about 1 1/2'') bench chisel.

best regards from Germany,

Oskar

[David Wong]

I have been using Matsumura blue steel bench chisels for several years now. They are smallish in size, so I do not use them for heavy pounding. Initially, I found the edges a bit prone to chipping, but I increased the bevel angle from 25 to 30 degrees, and they have been well behaved. I have other higher end chisels, but I really like how you can cradle the Matsumura chisels in your hand. They can take a really sharp edge.

I also have a set of chu-tataki Kunikei blue steel chisels. These are much larger and heavy duty, not meant for general bench work. I have been using them recently to pare some large mortise and tenons in Douglas fir. The edge on the Kunikei chisels is more durable than the Matsumura's. The Kunikei chisels are better finished (and also more expensive).

In Japan, Kunikei chisels are much better known than Matsumura chisels. It is possible that Matsumura sells under another brand in Japan. I would expect the Kunikei bench chisels to be stouter than the Matsumura chisels, and as mentioned more expensive. I really like the Matsumura chisels for their small size, fit, and price. I like the Kunikei chisels for the quality of the steel, finish, and resale value. Both are fine chisels that would probably work for you.

[Howard Pollack]

Kunikei makes great chisels. I have lots of Japanese chisels, and aside from one no-name chisel I got somewhere my two Kunikei chisels are simply the best. They take and keep a very fine edge.
-Howard

[Oskar Sedell]

Hi guys, thanks for chiming in with your experience. Just the kind of answers I was looking for.

David: Great description. I'm not doing much heavy pounding work, rather small stuff with a gentle touch. Any chance you have pics of your chisels? Would be interesting to see how they compare to the Dieter Schmied ones. Could you expand on what you mean by good fit in the Matsumura chisels?

Howard: Thank you. I've been told that Kunikei should be well made, and I've understood that Ikeda is a great smith. They're out of stock now, and I've to decide if I should wait for them.

[Dave Kelley]

As a user of Matsumura chisels I would recommend something else for dovetails. In fact, all Japanese chisels seem to struggle in this category. I use my Matsumura chisels for literally everything other than dovetails and mortises. I have chipped them before but it isn't common but something to think about. I still love them and will use them until I sharpen them to a nub.

As for dovetails, I tried the Japanese stuff and was never happy. I ended up with a couple of Ashley Iles MK2 bench chisels and they are simply amazing. Other than Blue Spruce I think these are the thinnest you can buy right now. They aren't expensive and do an amazing job, they come ground at 25 degrees and I keep them there. Hold a nice edge too.

Just my .02 and it didn't even cost you that.

[Oskar Sedell]

Thanks Dave,

just to be clear, you are talking about the Matsumura dovetail chisels (Umeki Nomi I think) for dovetailing? What exactly are you not satisfied with?

I already have a few reasonably thin chisels. I'm considering the dovetail chisel for its beveled edges, for dovetail chopping but also for general 'tight spot maneuvering'. I'm aware that the jap. dovetail chisels become pretty thick in the narrow widths.

[Dave Kelley]

I am talking about dovetail. Again, let me say I love my Matsumura bench chisels. They are quick to hone and keep sharp. The edges your talking about and the reason they don't work for dovetails well is the side bevel. The smaller the side bevel the better. The side bevel on the Matsumura are actually pretty big still. They might be beveled but still large. I'll attempt to post pics in this post so you can see the difference I am talking about when it comes to the edges on these VS the Ashley Iles I mentioned before. Blue Spruce is even thinner if you have the budget. Thinner the better for these, knowing full well they won't be your "do everything" chisel but they will do a damn good job at what you need them for.

343244343245

[Dave Kelley]

OK, I misread your last post about Bachinomi, I have some Matsumura dovetail but they don't look like that. However, they are still tall but definitely better since they come to an edge. I would see what the reviews say. I use several Japanese tools I use and love but am extremely pleased with the MK2's for this purpose. Included a pick of the Bachinomi for other posters.

343246

[Oskar Sedell]

Very good, thank you Dave for expanding on the beveled edges. Will think it over once more. I'm after a narrow one, about 4-5 mm and on the Dieter Schmid homepage ( http://www.fine-tools.com/G309565.html ) it looks like the narrow one (3 mm in this case) has smaller side walls than the bigger ones.

[Oskar Sedell]

seems like we're writing at the same time. Just to align our discussion, I'm talking about Umeki Nomi, not Bachi Nomi.

[Dave Kelley]

OK I somehow was confused somewhere. The ones you link are bad. The small 3mm one might be pretty dang good though. The larger ones are pretty bad for sure. I have an 1/8" and 3/8" Ashley Isles and think that's about all you need. I think running a 3mm the whole time would be a pain for dovetails but awesome for the corners of odd things. I mainly use my 1/8" for small tight dovetails or corners and things. My main dovetail chisel is the Ashley Iles 3/8". I would still recommend those to you and they cost around $60 for the pair and are mostly hand made, there's a cool Ashley Iles shop tour video somewhere. I'm not a tool collector. I don't own anything for the impressive factor of things. I use everything. I don't like clutter. So when I bought chisels, I was very choosy and made sure they would work and not just look cool. So I decided on the two Ashley Iles. Of course if you ask me, I think the Matsumura's aren't really that cool looking. I do love them though.

[Dave Kelley]

For the record, I'm only talking about dovetails here. Nothing more, nothing less. The chisels you linked look fantastic, just not for that job compared to other options.

[Oskar Sedell]

I'll try to find out if the 4.5 mm (or 3/16'') has the same profile as the 3 mm one. I just wrote to fine-tools and asked for a pic. Crossing my fingers that they can provide one.

[Brian Holcombe]

I always use Shinogi nomi and bachi nomi for dovetails. I also use 14 degree sides so would be easy to damage, curious to what problems you've run into?

[Dave Kelley]

Post here with results. I'm curious as well. Not that I need any but I'm always up for learning. Besides, future forum searches might end up here, we should give results if we have them.

[Brian Holcombe]

Here you are;

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/2016/06/30/the-butlers-desk-drawer-building/

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/2016/05/28/the-butlers-desk-casework-part-2/

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/2016/03/31/humidor-build-casework/

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/2016/03/18/framing-kunisada-complete/

That should cover everything from small to large, through dovetails, mitered corner dovetails, half blind dovetails, full blind dovetails and probably some others.

[Oskar Sedell]

nice examples Brian, I really like and learn a lot from your blog.

I got a response from fine-tools.com. This is the profile of the Matsumura Koshimitsu Umeki Nomi. Its about 4.5 mm wide, and 7 mm thick. A smaller side bevel would be nice, but on the other hand, the saw kerf has some width so it should work anyway.

343278

343279

[Brian Holcombe]

That looks good, i'd also pick up a 3mm, since you can skew them and take out any lingering end grain near the saw kerf.

[Dave Kelley]

Nice blog Brian. Looks like you have it figured out Oskar. Enjoy!

[Brian Holcombe]

Thank you!

[Oskar Sedell]

well, almost at least :) Have got some good input now to think about. Thanks for the assistance!

[Oskar Sedell]

Decided to go for it. I ordered three Matsumuras at noon on Thursday, and the next morning they arrived. Fantastic shipping :)

From top to bottom: 15 mm morticing chisel, 12 mm Bachi Nomi and 4.5 mm Umeki Nomi. Those are the advertised widths, but all three are actually a little wider.

343473

Spend a few hours yesterday cleaning of the rust protecting laquer (ethanol and plastic scraper), setting/resetting the hoops and lightly sanding off the laquer on the handle. The backs were reasonably flat, and it didn't take too long on a 1k hone to set them up. Took some fine edges, and I'm curious now how they will hold up.

[Christopher Charles]

Congrats, those are beautiful. Let us know how you like them. I'm especially curious about the bachi nomi.

Best,
Chris