Well I Took The Plunge

[Stew Hagerty]

Plunging as in making mortises with the Domino I just ordered.
Yup, I ordered the standard size along with the systainer full of beech dominoes.
I have a nice Powermatic Hollow Chisel Mortiser, which I will use for larger joints so that's why I opted for the smaller model.
I am anxious now to try it out.

[Chris Padilla]

My PM mortiser is gathering dust since I got the Domino. So are my mortising chisels and PC 557 biscuit cutter as well as my dado blades and tenon cutter. :)

Enjoy it! It really transformed how I put things together now. Do go through it and make sure that the distance from the cutter to the guide pins on either side are dead nuts on center. The manual you get will spell this out for you. Next, go on eBay and search on "Festool Domino Spacer" and consider picking those up to compliment the Domino's guide pins. I do not have these exact ones (mine are aluminum and no clue who I got them from on eBay...could be the same guy) but I use them all the time.

[Stew Hagerty]

My PM mortiser is gathering dust since I got the Domino. So are my mortising chisels and PC 557 biscuit cutter as well as my dado blades and tenon cutter. :)

Enjoy it! It really transformed how I put things together now. Do go through it and make sure that the distance from the cutter to the guide pins on either side are dead nuts on center. The manual you get will spell this out for you. Next, go on eBay and search on "Festool Domino Spacer" and consider picking those up to compliment the Domino's guide pins. I do not have these exact ones (mine are aluminum and no clue who I got them from on eBay...could be the same guy) but I use them all the time.

Well I went on and bought them. The ones i found are phenolic. Thanks for the tip.
Anything I need to know? Any advice for using it?
Oh... I have a Fein Turbo II. Should it fit the dust port ok?

[Martin Wasner]

I used one the other day. (Borrowed it from the other cabinet shop in my building) I don't have much use for one, but now I want one. Those couple of times a year it'd be useful, it would be real handy.

The price is insane though. I'm looking at getting a chaiwanese rip saw, $14k new. It'll be way more than 14 times as profitable to me as an investment than the domino. Yet, I still want one. Weird how that works.

[peter gagliardi]

Martin, if you mean a SLR, save a bunch of dough, and find a LMC Kikikuwa. A very well built small footprint saw that can be had for $2500-5000.00.
I have 2 chain mortisers, and 2 chisel mortisers in my shop, and I have both Dominoes. They all have their uses.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, if you mean a SLR, save a bunch of dough, and find a LMC Kikikuwa. A very well built small footprint saw that can be had for $2500-5000.00.


LMC is Leadermac? I'm looking at a Cantek, same company, different paint I believe.

[peter gagliardi]

I meant IMC, but I have seen some LMC branded machines with the exact same design, so they share something. In any event, if you go used, which I know you are an advocate of, those machines are Japanese made, and look every bit as well built and engineered as the old US machines.

[Stew Hagerty]

I used one the other day. (Borrowed it from the other cabinet shop in my building) I don't have much use for one, but now I want one. Those couple of times a year it'd be useful, it would be real handy.

The price is insane though. I'm looking at getting a chaiwanese rip saw, $14k new. It'll be way more than 14 times as profitable to me as an investment than the domino. Yet, I still want one. Weird how that works.


I know... The money...
I debated, didn't get one, debated, didn't get one, debated, and didn't get one for several years now. In fact I was thinking about it even before I got the mortiser. But then I'm a bit of a traditionalist, but I'm also a hard core Hybrid Woodworker. The clincher for me was watching an episode of Rough Cut where Tommy Mac and another woodworker who's name escapes me at the moment were making a yard swing. The mortise & tenoned all the big major joints and used the Domino for everything else. Something just clicked and BAM, I pulled the trigger.

[Bill McNiel]

Stew,
Check out the Domiplate from Seneca Woodworking, it really helps when working with 1/2" & 3/4" sheet goods.

[Frank Martin]

Despite the high price, one of the best woodworking purchases I made. I used to make the same kind of lose tenon joinery using a WoodRat but Domino beats it for the ease of use. I still use the Router Boss (better version of WoodRat) for larger joinery but most are handled with the Domino.

[Stew Hagerty]

Stew,
Check out the Domiplate from Seneca Woodworking, it really helps when working with 1/2" & 3/4" sheet goods.

Excellent. Thank you Bill, I will definitely keep that jig in mind.

[Lou Ortiz]

Well I went on and bought them. The ones i found are phenolic. Thanks for the tip.
Anything I need to know? Any advice for using it?
Oh... I have a Fein Turbo II. Should it fit the dust port ok?

Aside from checking the setup - mine were dead on - i'd advise not trying to go too fast when mortising, especially with the 500 as it will jump a bit sideways on the face. It's very easy to setup and use; greatly speeds joinery.

[Mike Berrevoets]

Double Check the plunge depth when changing setups. It stinks to run a bunch of parts with the plunge depth one setting too shallow..... I now have "plunge depth, dummy!!" Written in pencil across the top bar.

I built my own version of the Seneca plate with a piece of 1/2 inch Baltic birch ply, a handle and a few metric screws. Not as nice looking as the Seneca one but functions fine.

i put off buying it for a long time. I wish I had bought it sooner now that I have one.

[Kevin Womer]

My PM mortiser is gathering dust since I got the Domino. So are my mortising chisels and PC 557 biscuit cutter as well as my dado blades and tenon cutter. :)

Enjoy it! It really transformed how I put things together now. Do go through it and make sure that the distance from the cutter to the guide pins on either side are dead nuts on center. The manual you get will spell this out for you. Next, go on eBay and search on "Festool Domino Spacer" and consider picking those up to compliment the Domino's guide pins. I do not have these exact ones (mine are aluminum and no clue who I got them from on eBay...could be the same guy) but I use them all the time.

Are the domino spacers you speak of for use with fences having pins? If so dominos sold now, at least the 500, are sold with paddles not pins and would not work on newer models. What is the purpose of the spacers?

BTW I sold my mortiser, biscuit jointer and tenoning jig after I bought my 500. There are still ways I can make mortise and tenons without those machines but that's rarely in my case since I can use the domino now.

[Jim Becker]

There's really only one tool that I still "want" for my shop...and that's the Domino. Congrats on your acquisition!

[Mike Goetzke]

Stew - you will really enjoy the tool. I justified my Domino purchase when I built a crib for my daughters baby (first grandchild). Must have had close to 40 slats. Each slat had 4 mortises. Plus the headboard had my first bent lamination - attaching it was a breeze with Domino tenons. Like mentioned above, I had to make some custom stops using PVC pipe and made a custom trim stop for 1/2" thick material (that also required the Domiplate). So use your imagination!

Enjoy,

Mike

[mark mcfarlane]

I've only had a few chances to use my Domino so far but in general it works great.

My biggest challenge was cutting the mortises in the middle of a large piece and keeping the 500 from moving, i.e. cuts where you can't use the fence on the Domino to hold the machine in one position. I thought about double-stick taping some sandpaper on the domino, but practice will probably cure my newbie problem.

[Kevin Womer]

I've only had a few chances to use my Domino so far but in general it works great. My biggest challenge was cutting the mortises in the middle of a large piece and keeping the 500 from moving, i.e. cuts where you can't use the fence on the Domino to hold the machine in one position. I thought about double-stick taping some sandpaper on the domino, but practice will probably cure my newbie problem.Clamping a board such as in a shelf you want to attach for instance, gives something to push the domino against helping to keep it from drifting. I would try sandpaper, it sounds like a good idea. Everything I have read says to plunge slowly as this does help with drift In my experience. You can use a domino plate if you are attaching to an end of a piece such as in the sides of a shelf, but the problem you mention applies more to what would be middle shelves on a piece, if that makes sense...

[jack duren]

It's a great tool but doesn't replace a M&T where a quality joint should be used. Knowing when you should and shouldn't is the difference. Enjoy, it's fun..

[Jim Becker]

It's a great tool but doesn't replace a M&T where a quality joint should be used. Knowing when you should and shouldn't is the difference. Enjoy, it's fun..

Of course, the Domino makes M&T joints, so as long as they are properly sized they will be just as nice as hand-cut ones. Likely more precise for most of us, too. ;)

[Dick Mahany]

I was a total skeptic, but after watching many videos on the use of the Domino, I went for the smaller 500 unit. Wished I had done it years ago. I just completed 20 Euro style cabinets for my new garage (shop) and was blown away at how fast the cabinet boxes went together. Dust collection was incredible with an ordinary orange big box shop vac.
The smaller Domino is perfect for my needs, and I have zero regrets about that relatively expensive purchase. I also took the plunge for the Euro LR32 driling system, and am a true convert.

Learn to use the tool and it will pay rewards that you likely haven't imagined yet :)

[jack duren]

Of course, the Domino makes M&T joints, so as long as they are properly sized they will be just as nice as hand-cut ones. Likely more precise for most of us, too. ;)

Seen a lot of failed Domino's. Can't say that about a true M&T. Have two for work, but won't use on personal projects where a good stress joint should be used...

[Stew Hagerty]

It's a great tool but doesn't replace a M&T where a quality joint should be used. Knowing when you should and shouldn't is the difference. Enjoy, it's fun..

As I said, I do have a Powermatic Mortiser, and a Delta Tenoning Jig. But you're right, figuring out which one to use when is going to be the key. Any advice?

[Stew Hagerty]

Are the domino spacers you speak of for use with fences having pins? If so dominos sold now, at least the 500, are sold with paddles not pins and would not work on newer models. What is the purpose of the spacers?

Thanks for the heads up Kevin. I had bought the spacers, but thanks to your post, I was able to catch the seller before they were shipped and they refunded my money. At least I am assuming that this will be one of the "newer" variety since I am buying it new and is coming from CPO.

[Allan Dozier]

I bought one of the original units not long after it came out and am surprised at the many varied things I have used it on. Another advantage is when designing a project or adapting plans for one you don't need to take into account the tenon lengths. Just cut the pieces like for a butt joint. Not a huge advantage but easy on the old mind and fast.

[Sean Nagle]

Every now and then I have a yearning to buy a Domino. However, when I look at my docket of projects, I just don't know what I would use the Domino for. I don't get a lot of shop time for projects, so the serious projects I take on tend to be heirloom quality "furniture", for which I would always do "real" mortise and tenon joinery. There are shop projects now and then for which the Domino would be great. However, I do have a Lamello biscuit joiner which works just fine for glue-up alignment and cabinetry-grade work. If you happen to have a Domino, it would work just as well for for these tasks. If I had to replace my Lamello, I would buy a Domino since the pricing is surprisingly similar.

The Domino that I would want falls between the 500 and 700 models. The 500 is too small and the 700 is too large. Festool needs to come out with a Goldilocks version, a model 600.

It's also difficult to spend Festool money for a handheld power tool. I could put the same money toward upgrading my benchtop mortising machine to a floor-standing, tilting-head, 1" mortiser or I could buy a couple more heirloom-quality tools from Lie-Nielsen. If the Domino was less than $500, I'd already have one.

[mreza Salav]

Seen a lot of failed Domino's. Can't say that about a true M&T. Have two for work, but won't use on personal projects where a good stress joint should be used...

Can't think of a reason why a true M/T of the same size/thickness would be stronger (in a significant way) than a domino, can you please explain?
My thinking is A true M/T has half the joint of a domino (a tenon in a mortise). If a domino is going to fail, a true M/T is at least 1/2 likely to fail on the M/T side as well.
So the weakest point of a joint (if there is any) is identical in both.
However, I agree there are situations that you need BIG M/T that domino is not suitable for (I would still use a true M/T then).

[lowell holmes]

I have a tenoning jig that has gathered dust in my closet for years. I can cut tenons by hand quicker than it takes to break out the jig. It is a glorious tool, but not worth the effort to set up and use it.

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks for the heads up Kevin. I had bought the spacers, but thanks to your post, I was able to catch the seller before they were shipped and they refunded my money. At least I am assuming that this will be one of the "newer" variety since I am buying it new and is coming from CPO.I'm sorry about that, Stew. I had no idea that the new Dominos no longer have the spacing pins. I'm glad you caught it in time. Can someone post pics of the "pin-less" Domino? I'm really curious what they use now.

[Chris Padilla]

Seen a lot of failed Domino's. Can't say that about a true M&T. Have two for work, but won't use on personal projects where a good stress joint should be used...Post some pics of these failed joints. I have a hard time believing it. It really doesn't make any sense since the floating and integral tenons are nearly identical. And if you buy that the glue is stronger than the wood, then there is more glue involved with a floating vs. integral tenon.

[Stew Hagerty]

I have a tenoning jig that has gathered dust in my closet for years. I can cut tenons by hand quicker than it takes to break out the jig. It is a glorious tool, but not worth the effort to set up and use it.

Now see I really like mine. I made tenons by hand and with a dado head before I got it, and I actually much prefer it. I can make fine adjustments as thin as a hair, and I can also use it for splines.

Mortises, I always chopped by hand until I got my Powermatic PM701. I absolutely love that thing! It really has made an improvement in my work. But...

I debated back & forth a dozen times before I got it. It was between it and the 700XL. Obviously I ended up with the PM, for multiple reasons. One, as I said, I am kind of a traditionalist and really like actual mortise & tenons. Two, and VERY significantly, the PM was 1/3 the price of the Festool.

However, as the years have gone by, I couldn't help but think about loose tenons. I tried the router method and was NOT sold, either too many things to go wrong and ruin a piece, or buy (or build) a complex jig that can clamp, adjust to various sizes, and angles, and that I have to find a place to safely store when not in use. So I began looking back at the Domino, but the 500 this time. My PM easily handles all of my big stuff.

Then, after seeing Tommy's swing episode, I was hooked and placed my order.

[Allan Dozier]

There are two main reasons I think more people don't use the Domino machine. One is obviously cost and the other is they think they will be looked down upon by traditionalists who think they are taking shortcuts.

[Kevin Womer]

Thanks for the heads up Kevin. I had bought the spacers, but thanks to your post, I was able to catch the seller before they were shipped and they refunded my money. At least I am assuming that this will be one of the "newer" variety since I am buying it new and is coming from CPO.No problem Stew glad to help.

[jack duren]

I would not suggest a Domino in the stress point of a table leg or chair. There good for a lot of things but not stress joints. Speed is the seller. Price is why most don't have but it's a serious want by many. It is faster than a M&T but not a substitute for proper joints.

Here us a table leg with Domino's and additional metal support. Faster than a M&T but not secure enough without the metal

343193

[Lou Ortiz]

Seen a lot of failed Domino's. Can't say that about a true M&T. Have two for work, but won't use on personal projects where a good stress joint should be used...

If you can please post a photo or describe how the joints failed. I don't doubt what you've seen, but this thing is pretty bulletproof. Did the joints you saw fail use undersized dominos or perhaps use the wrong width setting when cutting the joint? That would seem more like operator headspace and timing issue...

[jack duren]

If you can please post a photo or describe how the joints failed. I don't doubt what you've seen, but this thing is pretty bulletproof. Did the joints you saw fail use undersized dominos or perhaps use the wrong width setting when c utting the joint? That would seem more like operator headspace and timing issue...

I have no pictures of the 700 bar stools made for Chili's restaurant that failed in 2015. All using Domino's. After one or two from each store failed in the first month and replacements sent, after awhile it was obvious all would fail over a period of time and all 700 were replaced with improved versions.

[Jim Dwight]

The joint strength tests by FWW and Wood magazine did not give good marks to dominos but the size of the domino joint was much smaller than the traditional mortise and tenon joints that tested better. That makes total sense to me. The size of the joint is a significant factor but not whether it is a traditional M&T or a Domino made loose M&T. It may be tempting to use smaller joints with the domino rather than figuring out how to work enough joint into the project but I see no other reason it is inferior (and I don't have one so I'm not arguing the point to protect my decision to get one).

Stated another way, I have some chairs I like to make that have joints the size of domino loose tenons. I would not hesitate to use a Domino for this chair if I had one. With my jigs, the mortises are probably cut faster with a router but the tenons take more time so overall I should save a little. Even though the pieces are pretty small, the chairs hold up very well. The design is from WoodSmith.

[Chris Padilla]

Jim makes some excellent points. In order to compare apples to apples, the size of the joints between floating and integral need to be the same. Otherwise it is not a fair comparison.

As to the failing bar stools, we don't have any details (and the devil is always in the details) so it is hard to accept a blanket statement as you are making, Jack. I would hazard a guess that the failing joints were not appropriately-sized whereas a M&T joint likely would have been since it can be made ANY size and dominos only come in a small array of sizes.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Jack for the information. I still think that a true M/T joint of the same size as a floating one should have almost equal strength. One problem (as mentioned) is sometimes the floating tenon (e.g. domino) size used is not selected properly.
Furthermore, there are some situations that one cannot use a floating tenon (even of the same size) in place of a M/T. For example, when the apron of a table goes into a much bigger leg; in that case the tenon can be almost the same size as the apron (just a little smaller) and the leg can accommodate the large mortise whereas you cannot create an equal size mortise in the apron to use a floating tenon. So yes, there are situations that a traditional M/T is superior to a floating one (since we cannot use the floating tenon) but if both can be used the same size I don't see any significant difference between the two.

[jack duren]

Jim makes some excellent points. In order to compare apples to apples, the size of the joints between floating and integral need to be the same. Otherwise it is not a fair comparison.

As to the failing bar stools, we don't have any details (and the devil is always in the details) so it is hard to accept a blanket statement as you are making, Jack. I would hazard a guess that the failing joints were not appropriately-sized whereas a M&T joint likely would have been since it can be made ANY size and dominos only come in a small array of sizes.

This was posted earlier this year about the bar stools. You seem to already decided it's bullet proof.

[Martin Wasner]

This was posted earlier this year about the bar stools. You seem to already decided it's bullet proof.

It's the old pro vs. amateur debate.

Believe what Jack says or don't, I'm sure he doesn't care one way or another. I think it's a fantastic tool for certain applications, but I can certainly see its limitations as well.

[Chris Padilla]

This was posted earlier this year about the bar stools. You seem to already decided it's bullet proof.I have made no such claims. I'm only asking questions so that I can understand things better. In fact, you've made the claims and I'm not the only one asking questions about those claims. If this was already discussed, can you post a link so we can check it out?

[Wade Lippman]

This was posted earlier this year about the bar stools. You seem to already decided it's bullet proof.

Of course it is not bullet proof. If the bar stools were poorly designed, they will fail; dominoes are not magic. Personally I have used thousands without a failure; I expect nearly all users would say the same.

Here is a fun fact; the domino was introduced in 2006 and the Kapex in 2007. If I hadn't just looked it up I would have sworn they were separated by at least 5 years.

[Frederick Skelly]

I have no pictures of the 700 bar stools made for Chili's restaurant that failed in 2015. All using Domino's. After one or two from each store failed in the first month and replacements sent, after awhile it was obvious all would fail over a period of time and all 700 were replaced with improved versions.

Geez. All 700. You had to have taken a beating on that job. I'm sorry to hear this.

With a failure of that number, did you ever squeeze-in time to talk with a KNOWLEDGEABLE Festool rep to get their thoughts? I realize your time is money, but something is clearly wrong - whether it's the tool or the bar stool design or whatever - and I'd want them to know about it.

[Erik Christensen]

congrats on the domino - i predict it will change your approach to construction of many things as that is what it has done for me. I bought it for fast & accurate replacement of more traditional M&T connectors typically in framing uses - rails to styles in doors, legs to aprons in tables, etc. I got one the year it was introduced and have used many thousands of domino's.

What is surprising is how I have ended up using it vs my intentions when I purchased. I have done 10 times as many 5mm in cabinet case construction than I have ever used for framing.

let us know how you end up using yours.

[Stew Hagerty]

Well, the wait is over. It just got here. It all looks good, except my Fein hose doesn't fit. The Domino dust port has threads, so does that mean the Festool connector is threaded to connect with it?
I'm going to have to make a run out to Oaktree Woodworking to check out the collector hose and get some kind of adapter.
I haven't tried it yet, it got here at the end of the day and we're getting ready to go somewhere, but I'll definitely give it a test run tomorrow.

[jack duren]

Who we are... Mistakes in judgement of a product can be costly. A lesson learned and a lesson sharedhttps://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjo8fG92OzOAhVHOyYKHVU9BvAQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dpy 0w4PylbGE&psig=AFQjCNFSmXo_6IxOiw3BdoGoNdbB0jlTew&ust=1472768528728580

[Chris Padilla]

Who we are... Mistakes in judgement of a product can be costly. A lesson learned and a lesson sharedhttps://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjo8fG92OzOAhVHOyYKHVU9BvAQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dpy 0w4PylbGE&psig=AFQjCNFSmXo_6IxOiw3BdoGoNdbB0jlTew&ust=1472768528728580I'm failing to see the point of you posting what appears to be nothing more than an advertisement for a particular furniture manufacturer.

[Chris Padilla]

Well, the wait is over. It just got here. It all looks good, except my Fein hose doesn't fit. The Domino dust port has threads, so does that mean the Festool connector is threaded to connect with it?
I'm going to have to make a run out to Oaktree Woodworking to check out the collector hose and get some kind of adapter.
I haven't tried it yet, it got here at the end of the day and we're getting ready to go somewhere, but I'll definitely give it a test run tomorrow.Sweet! Yeah, you do need the vacuum...I wouldn't use the Domino without it. And please post a pic or two of the front end. I'd like to see what's in place of the pins that my Domino has.

[Bill McNiel]

Excellent. Thank you Bill, I will definitely keep that jig in mind.

Stew,
I use the Domiplate to join face frames. When attaching the FF to the cabinets I use the 1/2" side for the cabinet box and shelf edges and the 3/4" side for the FF. This creates a very nice 1/8" (half of the 1/4" difference in offset) lip at the shelves. The Domiplate also provides a solid assist in Domino drawer construction.

[jack duren]

I'm failing to see the point of you posting what appears to be nothing more than an advertisement for a particular furniture manufacturer.

You seem to fail on any point on the subject if it's not a positive one.

"As to the failing bar stools, we don't have any details (and the devil is always in the details) so it is hard to accept a blanket statement as you are making, Jack. I would hazard a guess that the failing joints were not appropriately-sized whereas a M&T joint likely would have been since it can be made ANY size and dominos only come in a small array of sizes."

You've already decided.....

[mark mcfarlane]

Well, the wait is over. It just got here. It all looks good, except my Fein hose doesn't fit. The Domino dust port has threads, so does that mean the Festool connector is threaded to connect with it?

Mine is about 8,000 miles away, but if I remember right the Festool hose just slips over the outside of the domino connector. There are no threads on the Festool hose, its smooth.

[Chris Padilla]

You seem to fail on any point on the subject if it's not a positive one.

"As to the failing bar stools, we don't have any details (and the devil is always in the details) so it is hard to accept a blanket statement as you are making, Jack. I would hazard a guess that the failing joints were not appropriately-sized whereas a M&T joint likely would have been since it can be made ANY size and dominos only come in a small array of sizes."

You've already decided.....How about answering the question(s) that have been posed to you, Jack? You've made some claims which I'm fine with if you would only back 'em with something that we can put our heads around so we can fully understand what is going on. You've completely failed to do that and instead have taken jabs at me and posted some strange advertisement for the place where you work which is not germaine to the topic at all.

[Frank Martin]

How about answering the question(s) that have been posed to you, Jack? You've made some claims which I'm fine with if you would only back 'em with something that we can put our heads around so we can fully understand what is going on. You've completely failed to do that and instead have taken jabs at me and posted some strange advertisement for the place where you work which is not germaine to the topic at all.

I have the same curiosity. Look forward to seeing more details on this about what actually lead to the failed joints.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I have the same curiosity. Look forward to seeing more details on this about what actually lead to the failed joints.

I trust this isn't some breach of confidentiality, but I too am interested. I realize there's no pics, so how about a description.
Did tenons shear off? ...or pull out from tension?
Mortise blow out from torque? ...in leg? ...apron? stretcher?
Glue failure?
Seat joint fail? ...Stretcher joint? ...Both?
Was there a backrest? Arms?

I don't own Domino, but want one, and this could be valuable info to all owners and wanna-bes.

[Bill McNiel]

Well, the wait is over. It just got here. It all looks good, except my Fein hose doesn't fit. The Domino dust port has threads, so does that mean the Festool connector is threaded to connect with it?

Stew,
The connector is not threaded, it is ribbed and the hose fits over it on the domino. On other Festool products the hose slips inside the connector.

[Frederick Skelly]

How about answering the question(s) that have been posed to you, Jack? You've made some claims which I'm fine with if you would only back 'em with something that we can put our heads around so we can fully understand what is going on. You've completely failed to do that and instead have taken jabs at me and posted some strange advertisement for the place where you work which is not germaine to the topic at all.

+1. You (Jack) did the very same thing on the "is it ok to have 2 jointers" thread - threw out a contrary opinion with nothing to substantiate it.

[jack duren]

+1. You (Jack) did the very same thing on the "is it ok to have 2 jointers" thread - threw out a contrary opinion with nothing to substantiate it.

Asked if he needed two jointers and I said no, its excessive. If you can't sharpen blades, buy spare blades or do general maintenance on your tools buying another isn't going to help.

[Frederick Skelly]

Asked if he needed two jointers and I said no, its excessive. If you can't sharpen blades, buy spare blades or do general maintenance on your tools buying another isn't going to help.

You just said more here than you did there. And everything you just said makes good sense and helps. Thanks for doing that.
Fred

[jack duren]

I trust this isn't some breach of confidentiality, but I too am interested. I realize there's no pics, so how about a description.
Did tenons shear off? ...or pull out from tension?
Mortise blow out from torque? ...in leg? ...apron? stretcher?
Glue failure?
Seat joint fail? ...Stretcher joint? ...Both?
Was there a backrest? Arms?

I don't own Domino, but want one, and this could be valuable info to all owners and wanna-bes.

This is a sample of a bar stool. If you sit in the chair and "lean" back on two legs, where would your stress point be? It's the same with any chair, there are stress points. First we thought it was insufficient glue, testing a few loaded with glue and dried it was better, but not 100% safe. If a reasonable amount of effort(stress) went into the chair the joint would break. So extra reinforcement was added to help the Domino from separating under stress.

We treat our own chairs different than a customer.
343387

[Malcolm McLeod]

This is a sample of a bar stool. If you sit in the chair and "lean" back on two legs, where would your stress point be? It's the same with any chair, there are stress points. First we thought it was insufficient glue, testing a few loaded with glue and dried it was better, but not 100% safe. If a reasonable amount of effort(stress) went into the chair the joint would break. So extra reinforcement was added to help the Domino from separating under stress.

We treat our own chairs different than a customer.

Jack,
I suspect anybody who's ever fixed a chair knows where the stress concentrations are, but again how did your stools fail...? You seem to be saying the glue itself failed in first iterations (suspected to be glue-starved). With a well glued joint it was better, but did the glue still fail or did one of the joint elements fail? i.e. Tenon crushed? ...Mortise blow out?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I are a enjinear - and just trying to understand.
Thanks,
Malcolm

[Tom Ewell]

I vaguely remember Jack's earlier posts on this topic and don't recall any actual design elements being offered there either.. (might be wrong tho maybe I'll look it up)

In the early '70's I was in the night club business, both building and running.

Seating furniture had to be maintained to mitigate normal wear and tear, especially the 'loose' joints.

Most times it was simply a matter of retightening the mechanicals, maybe injecting some glue and/or reupholstering seat covers. I do not recall any pieces that relied solely on glued up joinery at the heavy stress points in that commercial furniture. If a glue joint separated (regardless of type) the mechanicals held it together and merely yielded a 'wiggly' chair or stool which hopefully would be noticed before failure and gone back to maintenance.

I suspect that Jack's reference to 'extra reinforcement' includes this mechanical support, which probably should have been done at the outset instead of assigning blame to the choice of joint.

[Martin Wasner]

I suspect that Jack's reference to 'extra reinforcement' includes this mechanical support, which probably should have been done at the outset instead of assigning blame to the choice of joint.

Wouldn't that be the same as saying the joint isn't good enough for this application? Which is exactly what Jack was saying from the get go?

[Tom Ewell]

Wouldn't that be the same as saying the joint isn't good enough for this application? Which is exactly what Jack was saying from the get go?

Yep and he had to recall 700 units because of this discovery in order to beef up the joint is what I take from this discussion.

We still don't know exactly how the joint was fitted glue to wood wise, I was just suggesting that perhaps the original design should have had the beefed up parts, hard lesson to learn and I laud him for putting out this info.

[mreza Salav]

Wouldn't that be the same as saying the joint isn't good enough for this application? Which is exactly what Jack was saying from the get go?

Martin, if you go back and read my post #39 that would help. My claim was (and still is) domino vs. traditional M/T comparisons are valid if you are talking about the same size in both.
If we agree with that, this example proves nothing about whether domino is better or worse vs traditional M/T.
The point is, if the joint requires you to use a big tenon (not provided by domino) you have to use proper size tenon so your option is a M/T. If the joint is sufficient with a smaller tenon
then there is no difference using a M/T or a floating one. I wouldn't call M/T a better joint in that situation.
We are still missing details on Jack's situation (what were the leg/apron/tenon sizes, number of them, etc); it could be the tenon wasn't sized properly or simply the joint is under more stress than
a tenon can handle...

[jack duren]

When the chairs were introduced to me I suggested M&T as for one I never used a domino to start with and secondly I didn't trust it for the application. My suggestion was declined and they wanted the chairs moved off to a production so anybody in the plant could produce them based on my configuration.

My negative post isn't because I dislike the Domino, but rather to suggest that you cover all bases with its use in stressful joints because it can fail.

mreza Salav's ....A M&T has one point of failure where a Domino can have two when it comes to glue. You'll get better odds if you only have one...

[Larry Edgerton]

From my own experience a Domino in the end of a rail such as would be the case in a chair is not anywhere near as strong as a tenon cut out of the wood in a traditional fashion. In my tests for my own satisfaction the rail breaks around the Domino if the domino is as big as a tenon would be. I seldom agree with Jack about much, but in this one case I have to agree. If the rail was larger where the Domino mortise was not such a large percentage of the cross section it would not be a problem, but you can not make parts big just because you want to use a particular machine, at least not in my world.

I have however cut the mortises in the legs with a Dominoe and then cut tenons in a traditional manner on the stretchers, just squaring the edges in the dominoed mortises with a sharp chisel.