I don't mean to destroy your romance with sharpening . . .

[John Blazy]

. . . But I have a feeling that I will be ostracized from this sub forum with my viewpoints. I've read several threads and posts about the nuances of everyones favorite sharpening system, and thought I'd offer some views from the opposite extreme. First off, I majored in furniture design at RIT, ran a high-end furniture / cabinet shop for ten years (as a professional, NOT a hobbyist) which resulted in national and international awards as well as being published in FWW's Design Book Six, so I can speak with some degree of authority on this subject, although that kindof means nothing compared to the fact that I purchased my first japanese waterstone in 1981, and have since worn it down to the point that I needed a new one in the early 90's (Which I still use).

Trust me, I HAD your romance. I still kindof do have it - nobody likes a dull blade. I've used white and black hard arkansas stones etc, so I know the breadth of all your arguments (Still favor waterstones - they cut so fast).

So basically, the novelty wore off after a few years, and I would like to share my method that has served me so well ever since, and I likely can sharpen blades at least 2X or more faster than most of you with these methods.

Here it is:
40 grit wheel on a 4" 12K RPM hand grinder to re-establish the hollow grind faster, and less chance of burning than setting the chisel or plane iron up on my upright grinder (at least up until I get off my lazy butt and mount a coarser wheel on it).

Then pull out my 1500 grit waterstone out of its plastic cookie jar in the shop sink and hone a perfect edge - face and back enough to shave with.

That takes about 90 seconds tops, because waterstones cut so fast. If, for some reason, I want that mirror edge that splits atoms, I run the edge on my plastic buffer thats always loaded with white rouge. But that is stupid, because even if paring a tenon face, the edge is dulled within a few minutes to the original 1500 grit waterstone edge equivalent.

So now that most of you hate me, let me give a few tips that will bring me back into your good graces, hopefully (This is all in jest really - not trying to start arguments - I love pretty much all woodworkers).

Best thing I did when I discovered diamond hones was to buy the big ones (solid, not honeycombed) then cut them into four pcs, 1" x 3" or so and grind a back bevel on one edge for sharpening drill bits, router bits, etc and then keep one in your pocket all day long. Way faster to pull it out and dress your tool right on the spot, than to walk across the shop to go through the "sharpening ceremony" that appears to be so popular here ;).

The next coolest thing I discovered was thin diamond blades designed for sharpening carbide. I acquired about five blades - all about 600 grit continuous diamond on the outer 3/8", and about 1/16" wide "kerf", but unfortunately had a 1" arbor, so I made a bushing to fit them on my Unisaw.

Then I made a magnetic based centering jig with a sliding dovetail slot where I match the face grind bevel on my carbide saw blades, and hone the inner tooth faces, and Viola! - I can sharpen my own blades within minutes without sending them off to be sharpened. Great for carbide router bits too. Get one of these diamond blades online, and you will thank me for it.

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[Jim Koepke]

. . . But I have a feeling that I will be ostracized from this sub forum with my viewpoints.

If what you do works who is anyone else to give it a knock?


Then pull out my 1500 grit waterstone out of its plastic cookie jar in the shop sink and hone a perfect edge - face and back enough to shave with.

Paul Sellers has a video saying 250 grit is fine enough for plane blades since that is how fine people sand to before putting on a finish.

I too can get a blade sharp enough to shave with a 1500 grit stone. It is a much more comfortable shave when an 8000 grit stone is used.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Oh man John! That was suppose to be a deep dark secret only revealed under the most severe torture.:D
Jim

[David Carroll]

"sharpening ceremony"

That is the funniest thing I've read in awhile!

DC

[Jim Koepke]

In reality if one is using a scrub plane, a jointer or a jack and taking a substantial shaving the edge honed to a mirror finish isn't likely to have much advantage. It might reduce the effort somewhat.

For me when smoothing or trying to fit a piece being able to take an ultra thin shaving is preferred. This tends to prevent plane tracks or taking too much material from something like a molding plane wedge.

Of course as usual, 342934

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

You will not be ostracised ....we can't stop reading all we can get ,even when we know OUR method is the " Real Thing"!!.
And the Internet means all can be heard without the messy business of taking over a radio mike....and the lines to do that were just getting intolerable!!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

. . . But I have a feeling that I will be ostracized from this sub forum with my viewpoints.

To be fully ostracized you have to express everything in metric.

[John Blazy]

I love woodworkers. You guys crack me up. I tell my wife that this is "Man Facebook".

On a serious note - has anyone ever heard of a carbide tipped plane iron? I would buy one if I saw one. But then again, I dont hand plane as much as I used to. I absolutely loved the carbide jointer knives I had on my old 6" jointer though - dressed quickly with the diamond hone, and stayed sharp forever.

[Andrew Hughes]

I send all my blades,knives,swords to middle earth for sharpening.The elves do a nice job.
So I don't need any pointers!

[Luke Dupont]

I send all my blades,knives,swords to middle earth for sharpening.The elves do a nice job.
So I don't need any pointers!

Pssht - when it comes to metal working, the Dwarves know better.

I purchase my stones from Misty Mountains Natural Whetstones Co. exclusively, and would never settle for less.

Also, Ale works best for lubrication, and moderate consumption prior to sharpening enhances one's ability when sharpening free-hand :D

All that said, I do believe 1500 grit sandpaper will work just fine in a pinch! After all, Dwarven-Nats are kind of expensive these days, what with the closing of the Moria mine and all. Misty Mountains Co. just doesn't think it's worth the effort to clean out all the goblins and start mining Lily-White Morias again. =/

[Brian Holcombe]

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/5222c69d-6952-4754-90cd-cf0044542db7_zpsaoltxsvs.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/image44.jpeg

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/cropped-cropped-1a535579-336e-4f28-b336-061efd6bd28f_zpsruipdzbq.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_4438.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

I love woodworkers. You guys crack me up. I tell my wife that this is "Man Facebook".

Now that could get you a few blocks of wood tossed your way. There are some very capable women who often inhabit this cave.

Okay Brian, since there was no text with your pictures were those from plane blades sharpened on a 1500 stone?

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

.....of course, 1500 was one step along the way.

[Patrick Chase]

I love woodworkers. You guys crack me up. I tell my wife that this is "Man Facebook".

On a serious note - has anyone ever heard of a carbide tipped plane iron? I would buy one if I saw one. But then again, I dont hand plane as much as I used to. I absolutely loved the carbide jointer knives I had on my old 6" jointer though - dressed quickly with the diamond hone, and stayed sharp forever.

I don't think carbide would hold up at edge angles acute enough to plane. Carbides are generally very brittle and need high angles to tolerate any sort of impact (though even then they chip easily), and most carbide tools have 60+ deg edge angles for that reason.

There's also a limit to how sharp of an edge you can hone onto solid carbide (compare your router bits to a sharp plane blade some time...).

You can get carbide scrapers though.

[John Blazy]

Man, Brian, those shavings and all that reflectivity bring back some great memories. A surface so smooth, that a finish wont stick. That would be one of those cases where I would go from the waterstone directly to my white rouge "strop" stage, then you can nearly plane burled grain.

Good point Patrick about the angle capability with carbide. enough stress, and chips the size of 36 grit will ruin any added longevity. My jointer knives were about 35 degrees IIRC, buts thats a totally different animal.

[Brian Holcombe]

The first and third photos are finished in shellac. The last one is a finish from the plane, no additional finish is needed.

[Bill Jobe]

With all this knowhow, why is it modern man cannot as yet make a blade that compares with the Samurai ?

[John Blazy]

With all this knowhow, why is it modern man cannot as yet make a blade that compares with the Samurai ?

Laminated steel japanese chisels. Not sure if they make them anymore, but I recall a FWW article in the early 90's where they did a huge comparison test of all the brands - from Sears through Footprint through Marples all the way to the laminated steel jap chisels, and they did Rockwell hardness tests and the Jap chisels came out on top with the steel recording a Rockwell hardness of C 66, while the Sears chisels barely had enough carbon in the steel to even be hardened. Might as well use a screwdriver than use Sears chisels.

I drooled over those Jap chisels. Do they even make them any more? That was a long time ago in a non-internet galaxy where FWW magazine was my only hope, Obi-wan.

[John Crawford]

I have a feeling that I will be ostracized from this sub forum with my viewpoints.

You clearly have not read the classic thread on the "one stone challenge (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214930-The-One-Stone-Challenge)"!

[Mel Fulks]

"Sharpening ceremony " : The means by which the dullard is made sharp. Look up Dunce cap,interesting serious stuff,and kinda like razor blades under pyramids.....the evidence is mounting !

[Kees Heiden]

Ok, after this love fest it's time for some cold and hard facts!

First, 90 seconds to refresh a chisel edge is plenty long. And your method doesn't seem very efficient, at least it takes me more effort to remove the burr on a coarser stone then on a fine polishing stone. And yes, Japanese chisels are still being made and using a hollow grind on them is sacrilege!

Oh, and everyone knows that oilstones are the only valid choice, the rest is just modern distraction.

[peter Joseph]

Yes, they are still making "Jap" chisels. 400+ years running!

I spend about 10-13 seconds on an 8k or 16K stone right off of the 1k. No regrets thus far.

[Stewie Simpson]

He must be Patrick's offsider. Chase & Blazy

[Frederick Skelly]

I drooled over those Jap chisels. Do they even make them any more? That was a long time ago in a non-internet galaxy where FWW magazine was my only hope, Obi-wan.

John, you've clearly been too busy building your company and need to slow down some to read more SMC :D. Been lots of discussion of japanese chisels here. Just the other day, someone (Stew Hagerty?) started one about a couple white steel dovetail chisels he bought. Maybe its time to reward yourself and buy a really nice set!

I sure enjoy seeing posts of your work - especially thatt boat.
Fred

[John Blazy]

Ok, after this love fest it's time for some cold and hard facts!

First, 90 seconds to refresh a chisel edge is plenty long. And your method doesn't seem very efficient, at least it takes me more effort to remove the burr on a coarser stone then on a fine polishing stone. And yes, Japanese chisels are still being made and using a hollow grind on them is sacrilege!

Oh, and everyone knows that oilstones are the only valid choice, the rest is just modern distraction.

Ok, I just timed myself on the 1-1/2" Greenlee in the pic below just now, and without rushing took me 72 seconds to grind down a nick, then waterstone to shave my arm. Then hit the rouge wheel to bring up the shine, and if I wave it through the air fast enough I can split the nitrogen from the oxygen. Good on ya to keep me true, Kees!

Yeah Fred, I think someday I'll treat myself to a set of laminated steel chisels. And you bet I'll know where to look for reviews. But God, I love my ancient Stanley mortice chisel and the Greenlee below. When I bought the Greenlee at a flea market for a buck fifty, missing the handle and covered in "bottom-of-the-toolbox" black grimoxide, I tapped it, and it rung with as much sustain as a Les Paul, so I knew the steel kicked some serious ***.

And the reason I'm not on the forum enough? Second picture. Just spent Mon - Wed on it, going on it tonight, and plan to scuba dive off it in Michigan to hunt for Petoskey stones in September. You can't overestimate how fulfilling building your own boat is, so I always encourage woodworkers to build their own. You get invited onto hundred foot yachts for the stuff Jimmy Buffet dreams about.
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[Patrick Chase]

Ok, I just timed myself on the 1-1/2" Greenlee in the pic below just now, and without rushing took me 72 seconds to grind down a nick, then waterstone to shave my arm. Then hit the rouge wheel to bring up the shine, and if I wave it through the air fast enough I can split the nitrogen from the oxygen. Good on ya to keep me true, Kees!

Wow, you were huffing nitrous the whole time? Because otherwise the oxygen isn't bonded to the nitrogen...

[John Blazy]

Got me on that one, Patrick. Although I do breath Nitrox sometimes, and not nearly often enough.

[michael langman]

Andrew, You crack me up!:)

SMC is better the comedy central !

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

Now that could get you a few blocks of wood tossed your way. There are some very capable women who often inhabit this cave.


jtk
Capable of making things scary sharp and dangerous ;-)

[george wilson]

I remember that FWW article comparing chisels. The Sears ones were the worst,as mentioned. They were made in Holland,and only had about .50% carbon. Just enough to harden,but very poor on abrasion resistance. So,they didn't retain an edge well at all. I'll bet they saved at least a PENNY on every half dozen chisels they made!!

[steven c newman]

That would depend on WHO made the chisels for Sears, as Sears never made a single tool, ever. Always a contract was let out every now and then. You stood about as much a chance of the chisels being Stanley No.60 clones as you did a PEXTO one. Just the way Sears did every tools they sold. Sold, not made. Just the same as a tool bought at Montgomery Wards.

I have three Sears labeled chisels, and three marked as Stanley No. 60......other than the silk screen labels on each, they are the same chisels. Meh....

[george wilson]

FWW mentioned that the chisels they tested were made in Holland.

I think everyone knows that Sears never made any tools.

[Dave Kelley]

Remember guys/gals he said "I love pretty much all woodworkers" so not all woodworkers. Hang him!

[Luke Dupont]

I remember that FWW article comparing chisels. The Sears ones were the worst,as mentioned. They were made in Holland,and only had about .50% carbon. Just enough to harden,but very poor on abrasion resistance. So,they didn't retain an edge well at all. I'll bet they saved at least a PENNY on every half dozen chisels they made!!

This is what happens when you let accountants run things, right? ;)

[Chris Fournier]

I have no romance with sharpening, it's just a task in my shop that requires me to move quickly and efficiently to a sharp tool edge so that I can get on with the romance of building my designs in wood and metal.

[Jim Koepke]

This is what happens when you let accountants run things, right? ;)

Don't get me started on the bean counters... :eek:

jtk

[John Blazy]

I have no romance with sharpening, it's just a task in my shop that requires me to move quickly and efficiently to a sharp tool edge so that I can get on with the romance of building my designs in wood and metal.
Kin I git a witness !!!

[John Gomes]

He may have meant that he loves 'pretty woodworkers', which would certainly narrow down the number!

[John Schtrumpf]

I have no romance with sharpening, it's just a task in my shop that requires me to move quickly and efficiently to a sharp tool edge so that I can get on with the romance of building my designs in wood and metal.


Kin I git a witness !!!

Canadians don't lie :D

[Frank Martin]

I like this thread! Thanks for starting.

This whole point is exactly the reason I am moving to a grinder and two Spyderco stones with free hand sharpening without a honing guide. Perhaps I can go down to even one stone. This is the system Derek and several others here have been advocating. As with most things in life any fool can complicate things, but experience, wisdom and sometimes genius are needed to simplify.

[Craig Regan]

Do I need a "sharpening altar" to perform this "sharpening ceremony" that you speak of?

[Tom Stenzel]

I might have to watch the movie "Romancing the Stone" again for Kathleen Turner, er I mean sharpening tips.

-Tom

[Robert Engel]

Hello.

My name is Robert.

I love to sharpen.

[Jim Koepke]

With all this knowhow, why is it modern man cannot as yet make a blade that compares with the Samurai ?

Modern man can make a blade to compare with the Samurai. Nobody wants to pay what it would cost to have someone make it.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

With all this knowhow, why is it modern man cannot as yet make a blade that compares with the Samurai ?

In terms of edged tools I think research will provide that blacksmithing was improved by smiths who brought science to the art. There are also a few making katana in the traditional methods, which were and are incredibly refined.