Small questions thread? Or, my small questions about a cabinet project.

[Ken Cobbing]

Since I'm new here, I don't know if this has been proposed before. Is there any interest in a "small questions" thread? It would be useful for people like myself that have various woodworking and tool questions that aren't quite deserving of there own thread. I searched but couldn't locate an existing thread.

Anyway, here are my "small questions" at the moment!

1. I've built a number of cabinets (simple boxes) that are designed to stack 4 high (4 x 2' each = 8 feet high). Photo is at bottom of this post. What is the best way of attaching these cabinets side-to-side, as well as top-to-bottom? Of course I could use short wood screws, but I'm guessing those more experienced than myself have thought of a more elegant solution. I thought about using wood pegs in the vertical side panels for the top-to-bottom connections, but I'm worried about the holes for the dowels lining up exactly (and thus the fronts of the cabinets not lining up).

2. For a column of stacked cabinets (photo below), should each cabinet be attached to the wall? Or, if the cabinets are attached securely to each other (as discussed above), is it enough to attach only the top cabinet to the wall?

Thanks for reading my "small questions"! All advice is appreciated from this noob!

342927

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

1) A lot of similar store bought KD furniture uses dowels like this.
You can make a shop made doweling jig to locate the dowels, so that they all line up.

2) If they are securely fastened together, then yes, you only need to anchor the top to the wall.

[Mel Fulks]

I've seen some fine cases that had had mouldings on stacking units. One of those signs of quality that just don't work well.
My book cases are just two feet wide and about 6 feet tall ,screwed together with an astragal moulding between them which looks good and removes the possibility of slight case misalignment advertising that it is not a single unit.

[Wayne Lomman]

Don't worry about 'small' questions. Every step in wood working is important, and anyone who complains about basic questions has forgotten when they started out and need to be reminded.

As for your project, don't over complicate it. Screws work. The trick is to position them where they are not readily visible. Once all the units are connected, screw the unit to the wall as a whole at the top and the bottom. As a tradesman with several decades experience, I have found that if you don't put at least one screw at the bottom, the unit will creep out from the wall over time. Cheers

[Andrew Pitonyak]

With kitchen cabinets, which are also secured to the wall, I think that they usually screw them together. They also sometimes use sex bolts.

Although you could find a means of securing them from the back, I would simply screw them side to side. You can decide how to secure to the back.

I saw a design where the items will kind of "inset" into the one below it.

[Jamie Buxton]

These are shop cabinets, right? I'd use flathead wood screws for both horizontal and vertical connections.
If these are shop cabinets, you might look at how flat your floor is. The floor in most garages is sloped to make water run out the door. A cabinet sitting directly on it will also slope. Consider shim wedges to level the cabinet, or, a little more elegantly, leg levelers.

[Ken Cobbing]

Thanks to everyone for your comments :)


Don't worry about 'small' questions. Every step in wood working is important, and anyone who complains about basic questions has forgotten when they started out and need to be reminded.

I appreciate the thought! I wish I was able to contribute rather than always asking questions, but hopefully the day will come when I can offer advice to those newer than me.


As for your project, don't over complicate it. Screws work. The trick is to position them where they are not readily visible. Once all the units are connected, screw the unit to the wall as a whole at the top and the bottom. As a tradesman with several decades experience, I have found that if you don't put at least one screw at the bottom, the unit will creep out from the wall over time. Cheers

This advice was especially helpful. I thought more about how I might be able to hide attachments and finally realized that I could attach top-to-bottom and side-to-side with sex bolts near the hinge plates since this area will be mostly obscured by the hinges when they are installed.

I hadn't considered attaching the bottom unit to the wall, but on your advice spent the time to do so. My walls are not flat, so I set the cabinets back from the wall 3/4" and then used plywood blocking to attach the bottom boxes to the wall. I'll do the same for the top cabinet, although it looks like the gap will be more than 3/4" when I'm up 8' high.

I'm halfway done the installation now and the 4 attached cabinets are SOLID!

I have to wonder how long a project like this would take a more experienced hobbyist. This project has taken me a very long time for what it is...just a simple set of deep storage cabinets for my utility room.

[Ken Cobbing]

I finished building and stacking the cabinets tonight and have a problem: the distance between the back of the base cabinets and wall is about 3/4", but the top cabinets are about 2.5" from the wall.

I think this has happened because of a combination of the wall not quite being plumb and the floor not quite being level.

So far I've tried to remedy by using composite shims. After using the full height of 1/4" shims, this has brought the back of the top cabinets about 1.25" from the wall, about 0.5" farther from the wall than the base cabinets. The shelves are now near perfectly level, so the remainder of the problem must be because of the wall not being plumb.

What would you all do in this situation?

I'm concerned about transferring the substantial weight of the cabinets (which were previously resting directly on the floor) to a few composite shims. I've read that composite shims can hold a *lot* of weight, but what about the fact that the load-bearing side panels are no longer resting directly on the floor?

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

First, put a level on the wall and see how far out of plumb it is. Thht oen you make your decision. If it's really out of plumb by 1-1/4", then you have two options.
1) Install then tight to the wall, out of plumb, with a gap at the floor.
2) Shim them off the wall and install them level.

When you screw the cabinets to the wall, the wall carries the weight of the cabinets, unless your cabinets are really flimsy. You can probably pull the shims out and the cabinets won't move.

[mark mcfarlane]

I finished building and stacking the cabinets tonight and have a problem: the distance between the back of the base cabinets and wall is about 3/4", but the top cabinets are about 2.5" from the wall.

I think this has happened because of a combination of the wall not quite being plumb and the floor not quite being level.

...

This isn't going to help much, but your situation shows one of the benefits of building the cabinets in situ. Create a level base, than scribe the vertical parts of the cabinet to the back wall, then measure and add the shelves.

Since your cabinets are already built, and the wall leans 'away' from the cabinets, I'd start by building a level base out of pressure treated wood, stack the cabinets on the base, then shim the middle and tops of the cabinets to the wall, then put a new top across the whole assembly, scribed to the back wall, so you don't have a gap between the wall and cabinets for stuff to fall into.

[Wayne Lomman]

Ken, what Mark says is the correct way to do it. Build a kick board/baseboard frame the same footprint as your cabinet say 100mm high, and scribe it to the floor so that the top edge is level and the bottom edge fits the floor. No shims are required. Install the cabinet on top of this and screw it to the wall with packers between cupboard and wall to keep it plumb. This way the loads are all directly to the floor. Contrary to other advice, the screws to the wall do not take the load in this type of installation. Their purpose is to stop the unit falling forward. Cheers

[Ken Kortge]

With kitchen cabinets, which are also secured to the wall, I think that they usually screw them together. They also sometimes use sex bolts.

Where do I go to find "sex bolts"?

[Bill Conerly]

Where do I go to find "sex bolts"?


I'm afraid to google that.

[Ken Cobbing]

Thanks Gerry, Mark, and Wayne for your advice.

I agree that the best way to remedy the problem is to build a level platform and stack the cabinets on top. However, I think that if I did so, the holes that I've drilled to attach the cabinets to each other (with sex bolts) will no longer line up (i.e., the adjustments will put the holes slightly out of alignment). Additionally, I'm guessing that taking all the cabinets down, building a new base, and putting them all up again will take me another 1-2 days (yup, I'm that slow). Meanwhile, DW can't understand why she isn't allowed to fill up the cabinets yet (because they look finished) and I need to get back to my real job!

With the above in mind, I've attached a couple of photos showing what I'm dealing with. I understand that the installation right now is pretty amateurish, but I wonder if any of you would suggest to just leave it as-is with the composite shims. Opinions? As the photos show, the full weight of the assembly is not resting solely on the shims - only the front edges.

BTW, I decided early on that I would build these shelves to be floor-bearing rather than wall-bearing because the other side of the wall is already completely filled (floor-to-ceiling) with stud-mounted bookshelves. I figured it would be better to not add additional weight to these studs on the other side of the wall, since I'm not sure how well this wall was framed (post-construction addition).

Thanks again for all the advice!

Front, middle shim:
http://i.imgur.com/dipaxeo.jpg

Right-side shim:
http://i.imgur.com/TKspoyp.jpg?1

Level on the top cabinet shows the assembly is level, and about 1.5" from the wall:
http://i.imgur.com/CPGgCPI.jpg

Level on the wall shows the wall is out of plumb either a bit or a lot, depending on how I lay the level on the wall:
http://i.imgur.com/ubmqqJQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/n82eKS8.jpg

[Ken Cobbing]

Where do I go to find "sex bolts"?

I found that they are sold by the BORGS, but in limited sizes/finishes and expensive. They call them "connecting screws" or "binding post screws". Here's a link:

http://www.lowes.com/pl/Standard-sae-binding-post-screws-Binding-post-screws-Screws-Fasteners-Hardware/4294580312

I purchased mine at woodworkerexpress.com for a lot less money. I think the ones they sell are made by Hafele in Germany:

http://www.woodworkerexpress.com/Connecting-Screws-Connecting-Screws-5mm-Bore-Metal-Made-for-Wood-Thickness-1-3-16-1-9-16.html
https://easylink.hafele.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/HDE-INT-EasyLink_HDE-INT-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/Haefele_BrowseCatalog-Category?CatalogCategoryID=N.3AqBlZ3MAAAAE8HUcgmPZ t&NavigationSource=Image

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Gerry, Mark, and Wayne for your advice.

I agree that the best way to remedy the problem is to build a level platform and stack the cabinets on top. However, I think that if I did so, the holes that I've drilled to attach the cabinets to each other (with sex bolts) will no longer line up (i.e., the adjustments will put the holes slightly out of alignment). Additionally, I'm guessing that taking all the cabinets down, building a new base, and putting them all up again will take me another 1-2 days (yup, I'm that slow). Meanwhile, DW can't understand why she isn't allowed to fill up the cabinets yet (because they look finished) and I need to get back to my real job!

With the above in mind, I've attached a couple of photos showing what I'm dealing with. I understand that the installation right now is pretty amateurish, but I wonder if any of you would suggest to just leave it as-is with the composite shims. Opinions? As the photos show, the full weight of the assembly is not resting solely on the shims - only the front edges.

BTW, I decided early on that I would build these shelves to be floor-bearing rather than wall-bearing because the other side of the wall is already completely filled (floor-to-ceiling) with stud-mounted bookshelves. I figured it would be better to not add additional weight to these studs on the other side of the wall, since I'm not sure how well this wall was framed (post-construction addition).

Thanks again for all the advice!

Front, middle shim:

Ken, The shims you have shown are only providing support at your vertical panels. If you build a full platform you'll have full support along the bottom row of shelfs, so they can hold more weight. If you don't plan to load more than a few pounds on the bottom shelfs your shims should be fine. Wood sags with weight.

If you build a level platform for your entire shelf unit, your current screw holes between units should still line up correctly if you screwed those pieces together initially sitting on a flat reference surface.

A few people mentioned scribing the platform to the floor to make it level. Scribing is kind of the opposite of shining, where you remove material rather than add shims. It can be done with a scroll saw, or in a jam, a circular saw. If you aren't familiar with scribing Google, 'cabinet scribe'.

Are these shelf in a potentially wet area, such as a garage? Are they on concrete? If so, they will probably last longer (i.e. stay dry) if you get them a few inches off the ground, another advantage of a stable, level platform. Besides hosing out the garage, new concrete can emit water, water can condense on it during humid days,... Untreated wood touching concrete is asking for trouble.

[Ken Cobbing]

Hi Mark,

It sounds like you are saying that leaving the cabinet assembly shimmed as it is now should not be a problem (although not ideal), with the only real disadvantage being the bottom shelf not being fully supported by the floor. I think I can live with that if it means not having to disassemble everything, build a level platform, and then reassemble.

The shelves are in my newly-finished utility room. The floor is old concrete. Before building the shelves I stripped the old floor tiles, applied a moisture retarder on the concrete, and then laid new SVT tiles. I also finished the bottoms of the cabinets with polyurethane. Hopefully all of this means that the shelves will not be affected by moisture.

[mark mcfarlane]

Hi Mark,

It sounds like you are saying that leaving the cabinet assembly shimmed as it is now should not be a problem (although not ideal), with the only real disadvantage being the bottom shelf not being fully supported by the floor. I think I can live with that if it means not having to disassemble everything, build a level platform, and then reassemble.

The shelves are in my newly-finished utility room. The floor is old concrete. Before building the shelves I stripped the old floor tiles, applied a moisture retarder on the concrete, and then laid new SVT tiles. I also finished the bottoms of the cabinets with polyurethane. Hopefully all of this means that the shelves will not be affected by moisture.

You should be fine Ken unless a sink, or washing machine leaks or sump pump malfunctions, in which case your shelf project is probably trashed. The shims should actually help a little in keeping the bottom shelf dry (air circulation), but next time consider building a platform for longevity.

When you load the shelves, keep the heavy stuff towards the edge and the light stuff in the middle. That will minimize sag in the shelves over time. If you have screwed or glued the sides of the shelves in place, adding a screw or two in the middle of each shelf going thru the back of the cabinet will also help to prevent some sag.

I have some 30 year old veneered particle board shelves on shelf pins that I flip over every year or two so they sag back to flat :). If I kept them in the original orientation, by now they would probably be U shaped and too short to hit the shelf pins.

[Ken Cobbing]

Mark,

The utility room does have a washing machine and water heater (both new), but they are both on the opposite, outside-facing wall, and as I've just discovered, the floor is sloped slightly in that direction. I see no evidence of water intrusion in the utility room since it was built in the 1960s. Hopefully that trend continues for the time that I'm in this home.

Nevertheless, I fully agree that I should have built a platform from the start. This is my first significant woodworking project and I've learned a lot from my mistakes.

The shelves are pocket screwed to both the sides and back panel (all 3/4") every 6". Based on what the sagulator tells me, I shouldn't have to worry about shelf sag. I hope that's correct!

I've questioned myself over the last week if all the time, cost, and effort was worth it vs. spending $1,000 on IKEA shelving. I'm still not sure :o

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark,

... This is my first significant woodworking project and I've learned a lot from my mistakes.

...I've questioned myself over the last week if all the time, cost, and effort was worth it vs. spending $1,000 on IKEA shelving. I'm still not sure :o

If I could remember all the mistakes I have made in life I would be a genius.

Ken, you will smile every time you walk by the shelves, for years in the future. Rest assured it was worth the time and effort. Load up your wife's 'stuff' for her to complete the gift, she can rearrange it later.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I'm afraid to google that.

Sex bolts is a safe google thing. Well, it only returns safe stuff when I do it..... but google may have figured out what I like to google.....

That said.... This is a safe link. You take a look at one picture and you say "oh yeah, I know those"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_bolt

[Andrew Pitonyak]

So far I've tried to remedy by using composite shims. After using the full height of 1/4" shims, this has brought the back of the top cabinets about 1.25" from the wall, about 0.5" farther from the wall than the base cabinets. The shelves are now near perfectly level, so the remainder of the problem must be because of the wall not being plumb.

What would you all do in this situation?


It is very common for a builder to run studs along a wall just so that they have a plumb reference. I would do something similar here. If it is too late for that, or if you do not want to off set things from the wall that much, then take a 2x4 (or similar), set the 2x4 plumb as close to the wall as possible, scribe it, then cut along your scribe line. You will end up with a "custom shim". Well, OK, I guess you don't need to do it in the vertical direction, you could also create a shim that is horizontal, but you still can scribe and then cut with a band-saw or similar. I don't own a band saw so I would use a hand held tool to do it, but the process is the same.

Pictures when you are finished.

[Roy Turbett]

This isn't going to help much, but your situation shows one of the benefits of building the cabinets in situ. Create a level base, than scribe the vertical parts of the cabinet to the back wall, then measure and add the shelves.

Since your cabinets are already built, and the wall leans 'away' from the cabinets, I'd start by building a level base out of pressure treated wood, stack the cabinets on the base, then shim the middle and tops of the cabinets to the wall, then put a new top across the whole assembly, scribed to the back wall, so you don't have a gap between the wall and cabinets for stuff to fall into.

+1 Build a level base and go from there - especially if you're working on a garage floor with a slope.