C.Nurse dovetail saw restoration

[Derek Cohen]

From what I can gather C.Nurse & Co were a London-based firm that primarily made handplanes. From backsaw.net, "Nurse never made saws but sold saws of very high quality", and that "at least some Charles Nurse saws were made by Thomas Turner". Saws by Nurse & Co were "expensive and high end".

A few weekends ago, I picked up a 9" dovetail saw from this maker at the Perth Wood Show for $40.

The saw plate was mildly pitted. The Seller had made an attempt to tidy it up ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/5-unrestored1_zpsew1vtzfq.jpg

The handle was in decent condition. A bit rough here-and-there, but the only area I thought needed some work was the curve for the palm. The projection here extended too far and was painful to hold for long.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/6-unrestored2_zpsb2ljubug.jpg

The nuts were buggered and needed replacing ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/8-unrestored4_zpsglruyceg.jpg

.. and the brass back looked like it had been hammered into the wood (presumably as the teeth were misshapen and dull) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/7-unrestored3_zpsm8y7hnxz.jpg

I was determined that any restoration must to not alter the vintage presentation of this saw.

The plate was sanded 120/240/400 grit (sandpaper on a hard backing), the teeth sharpened (19 tpi! at 5 degrees rake), and the saw nuts were replaced. The hump on the handle was reduced until the saw felt comfortable ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/1-Completed1_zps0is4f8ms.jpg

I need to level and file the teeth again. They were so misshaped originally. Not bad now, but could be a little more even. They cut well.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/2-Completed2_zpsupgmhnc7.jpg

The brass back was sanded back, but hopefully still looked well-lived ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/4-Completed4_zpskjky6uru.jpg

Test cuts were spot on. As good as the Veritas 20 tpi I used for comparison. Here is the saw with the sharpening tools ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/45-Completed5_zpsqipudtkt.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/3-Completed3_zpsk1tddrpu.jpg

Not much to see on the outside ... :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Nice work Derek. Will this become a user? The hang looks a little steep from the pictures. I don't know how you find the time to do all of the things you do. Your write ups are always good so just keep it up.
Jim

[James Waldron]

Nice looking saw. Nice work, as usual. A good place to stop your effort; it still looks well used through the years.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi James

I am a sucker for dovetail saws as I enjoy the joinery area of woodworking the most. At these Shows, where the Old Tools Society have a pretty decent range for sale, I always look out for something that may be a little special. The Show started on the Friday and I got there on Saturday. I was told that a bunch of brass backed dovetail saws had been snapped up the day before (isn't that always the case!), and there was this fledgling left. I was surprised because it looked the type of saw I looked for - I would suspect that this saw would be pre-1900 owing to the split nuts and the details on the handle. The other sawmaker I look out for is Groves, and I consider that these two names are on a par.

Anyway, the saw was left because it looked in a far worse state than my pictures above as it only occurred to me to take photos when I had it apart. The back was dinged and the teeth were crooked and misshapen. I think that the tapered plate also looks to some as it is worn out! So I got lucky.

The hang feels correct. It is difficult to judge in a photo because of the tapered blade. Here is a photo of the Nurse together with a LN. The hang is pretty much the same ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/5-Completed5_zpsxkqqxtj5.jpg

What one can also get from this comparison is the difference between a modern rendition of this classic handle, and the classic handle itself. I really like the LN. It is one of my go-to saws, and the handle is very comfortable. But it does look crude alongside the Nurse (my opinion).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Nice looking saw. Nice work, as usual. A good place to stop your effort; it still looks well used through the years.

Thanks James. That was the goal.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

Nice job Derek, and indeed, a great handle. i am just a little uncomfortable with the amount of cant, compared to the width of the back of saw. It looks like there is just too much cant, and it looks out of balance with the rather wide back of the saw.

Just my opinion of course.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kees

There is another factor that may influence the perception that the hang is higher than it really is. The hammering on the brass back caused a slight curve. You can still see this. I did not try and remove it as the folded back is too difficult to remove. Perhaps I should try again?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

It looks like the blade is driven too far into the spine at the front. But when you have troubles to release it, I would leave it as is. There is no sence in damaging something to correct an esthetic issue.

[Pete Taran]

Derek,

It's not at all hard to remove and adjust the spine, especially with brass on steel. Just grip the blade very tightly in a vise and either pry up on the end with a screwdriver or make a wedge out of hard maple and drive it off with taps from a hammer. It will move easily. Might be a basket case though as the blade has been filed so much that there is much more steel at the heel than toe. Putting it back isn't hard either....just saw a kerf to keep the blade upright in a piece of wood and tap the back on with a wooden mallet. If you really want to go the extra mile, make a new blade out of some new 1095 spring steel.

Regards,

Pete

[James Waldron]

It looks like the blade is driven too far into the spine at the front. But when you have troubles to release it, I would leave it as is. There is no sence in damaging something to correct an esthetic issue.

Correction of the set of the plate in the back would misalign the screw holes in the plate; can't correct just one issue without being bit by the Law of Unintended Consequences. A new plate would look so nice, it would be a shame not to match it with a new handle. And that distorted brass back has to go. But it's still one of the nicest Nurses ever!

[Derek Cohen]

Pete, I have no choice now. It is as simple as that. I shall pull it apart again, remove and straighten the back, and see whether the plate is still a keeper. Otherwise file a new one. Looking at the photo here of the handle against the LN convinced me - it is worth doing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

James, you are spot on. I did begin to work the plate higher into the back at the rear (early on) but without removing the bend, the holes cannot line up, and so I had to stop. The back must be straightened. Of course, I could just drill new holes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

Those saw teeth could have done with a decent jointing before sharpening Derek. I wouldn't listen to those that suggest replacing the brass back, its an important part of the saws heritage. Replacing the saw plate with a new one is not so critical. All up a very nice find. Do you know off hand what the saw plate thickness is.

Stewie;

[James Pallas]

If possible maybe just get the back off straighten it and put it back. It is possible with a straight back the saw will regain its balance again. That 1/8 or so bow distorts everything. If the plate can be set straight after correcting the bow all will be well and the saw would remain intact.
Jim

[Pete Taran]

James,

This can happen, but the holes and the plate aligned properly when it left the saw works, and with the right attention to detail can be made to again!

Regards,

Pete

[george wilson]

Nurse was just a retailer,wasn't he? No telling who really made the saw,I suppose,except by examination of the details with known makers of saws.

Groves is also my favorite maker.

I wouldn't change the back,blade,or handle. You could straighten the back,but don't change it.

The LN saw handle needs more work: The curves on the bottom of the handle need to look like the Nurse's handle. Also,the LN's rounded over areas need to be MORE rounded over.

I can't get my thoughts written down this morning! Up too late last night with my broken foot.

[Stewie Simpson]

Pete; you do realize your partly responsible for the growing interest in sharpening your own handsaws.

Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

Steve,

The thought has crossed my mind. Thanks for noticing! :D

Regards,

Pete

[Derek Cohen]

And, of course Pete, you'd recall this comparison ... :)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and %20LieNielsen%20saws_html_m70372640.jpg

You can see the difference in the handle - LN became thicker and lost the subtleties shaped into the IT.


I wouldn't change the back,blade,or handle. You could straighten the back,but don't change it.

George, that is my first priority.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pete Taran]

Derek,


Is that your saw? Did we ship one all the way to Australia? Looks like night and day to me. :D

Regards,

Pete

[Derek Cohen]

Pete, I've owned and used that saw for a decade now. I purchased in in new condition on eBay and wrote about it here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and %20LieNielsen%20saws.html

I recall you once mentioning to me that you recognised the piece of curly maple it was made from, but that was several years ago.

It is a joy to use, and still looks like new.

Thanks for a great saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I spend part of Sunday afternoon pulling apart the saw and completing the restoration. I had been reluctant to mess with the brass back at the start, since I did not wish to alter the vintage appearance of the saw. However, with your urging, I have returned to deal with the curved and skewed back.

After wrestling the brass back off the plate, this is what was uncovered ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/1a_zpshdraynng.jpg

This is a bit of a puzzle. The back appeared to have dropped. However the bolt holes are original and, if the plate is pushed higher into the back, then the handle cannot be bolted back. Possibly, the front of the plate was hammered in? There is an even line in the steel (seen in the photo) that appears to be where the brass held the plate. Alternately, someone filed the saw at an increasing taper?

The brass back was straightened as much as possible by placing it curved side down, and wacking the centre with a hard rubber faced Thor hammer. The ends remained a touch high (less than 1mm), and I carefully sanded this down.

The plate was returned to the back, and adjusted to match the hang of my IT dovetail saw ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/4a_zpsqj8gm2of.jpg

To facilitate this, a sliver of plate needed to be removed (on the diagnonal), and then new holes drilled (use a carbide drill bit for this) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/5a_zpsmcq19yp0.jpg

The plate was then re-jointed and re-filed (still 19 tpi, with 5 degrees rake), and all bolted up.

The rear of the saw plate has 1 1/4" to the back, and there is 1 1/8" at the front (i.e. a taper of 1/8" along the length).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/9a_zpszonssh8s.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/6a_zpspinvxpgl.jpg

The handle is just gorgeous, and it is difficult to see the reduction I made to the "hump". It is really comfortable ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/7a_zpsdmndvsse.jpg

A few test cuts ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/11a_zpseksfj8lg.jpg

Something more meaningful ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Nurse%20dovetail%20saw/12a_zps76khdflp.jpg

It is cutting beautifully. This is now a go to dovetail saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

Nicely done, Derek. Love seeing old tools back in service, with all its original character. Thanks for sharing the process.

[Kees Heiden]

I totally love it Derek! It looks now a 1000 times better! Good job, and I am jelous.

[george wilson]

Did you reshape those "peg" teeth?

[Derek Cohen]

Ha! I did refile the teeth. As well as I could. 5 degrees of rake and 19 tpi. It's cutting well. Perhaps that says more about anything sharp being capable of cutting. Actually, its cutting as well as the LN, which was cutting well before, so I guess I did OK.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

Very nice work Derek. The solid carbide spade bits do an excellent job at drilling through saw plate.

[Pete Taran]

Derek,

What a great way to start my Sunday! Love to see full blown, Katy bar the door saw doctoring! It is not hard as you found out. I've long been a skeptic about the whole "tapered" blade as a sold feature. When a saw drops off the bench, 9 times out of 10 it lands spine down and the blade gets lifted out of the mortise in the back and pushed down in the front. This is how tapered blades are born. Harvey Peace of the Vulcan Saw Works sought to correct this by putting a bolt through the back, handle and blade to try to prevent this from happening. It was a good idea, but didn't go far enough. That is why I adopted the solid milled back when designing the original IT saws. The blade will never move in the spine, or otherwise come out. 20 years has proven it to be a valid approach. :D

Here is a tip to help file those small teeth. Take two pieces of scrap as long as the blade (or longer) and joint them with a plane to be dead straight and flat. Do them at the same time. Next, clamp the blade between the two teeth with the wood at the same height on each side, and maybe .030" below the root of the lowest tooth. Now, when you file, go until the file just creates a track in the wood. For teeth so small, this is the most accurate way to make sure you are getting to the same depth each time. The wood acts as a brake, and you can easily judge the depth of the "trenches" that are produced. Unless your eyes are much better than mine, or you have access to an electron microscope, you just can't see the flats on the tops of teeth that small. You'll be amazed at the consistency you will get.

Happy Sawing,

Pete

[James Pallas]

Derek, The saw looks great. Looks like it will work for a very long time too. It is sometimes amazing how much an1/8 changes everything.
Jim

[Kees Heiden]

I suppose you've seen the Smith's key to the various manufactories of Sheffield (1816). Here is the entry for the saws:

343065

Not just tapered blades, even tapered spines!

So there you go with your theory that tapered baksaws were merely an accident from dropping the saw on the floor. :p

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for that tip, Pete. I shall try it out on a 20 tpi saw I need to refile completely.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pete Taran]

Kees,

It's not a theory, it's a reality. I've seen those engravings and others, and am not convinced. A drawing is one thing, a picture is another. I consider the gold standard for these things to be the Seaton Chest. In those back saws, one does appear to have a tapered blade, others not. One even has what looks to be a spine that is thicker on the toe than where it meets the handle. The Seaton Chest is about as close as we can get to what was reality. I just don't buy into the tapered phenomenon as anything other than an accident. The author of the book on the chest even notes: "One interesting point is that the blade widths in all backsaws project less at the toe than the heel. Whilst the reason for this is unclear, it seems likely that it is more to do with the needs of the person using the saw than the sawmaker." Couldn't agree more!!!! (although from the picture, not all appear to be tapered to my eye).

There is another thing that I think bears mentioning. When jointing a saw, more pressure is always applied at the end of the file stroke than the beginning. This removes more metal from the toe, and after a bunch of sharpening's, you have a tapered blade. Anyone who has ever jointed a board, can attest to this phenomenon.

I've handled literally thousands of vintage backsaws, and I've never, not one time, seen one that I considered to be made that way. All had lifted backs at the handle mortise, and signs of trauma on the toe. The vast majority, like 90%, were as straight and parallel as can be. That includes Disston saws from the early (1840-1860) period and his contemporaries. I've attached a picture of two, crazy early 1845ish backsaws made in Philadelphia, one by Disston, the other by Dillworth. Both, as you can see have blades as untampered as it gets. While two saws don't make up the universe, these saws are so early, it tapered blades really were a thing, and fledgling makers in the US wanted to fit in with the Sheffield makers, surely they would have made their backs tapered as well. They didn't, and I don't believe those in Sheffield did either. I have many other early saws like this that show the same results.

We will obviously never know, but when I croak, and go to the great saw works in the sky, this will be one of the questions on my list.
Regards,

Pete

343066

[Frederick Skelly]

Another great piece of work. I love the way you maintained its historic provenance!
Fred

[Kees Heiden]

I've got an earlier one, 1750's White's saw. George made copies from this saw when he was working in Williamsburg.

343072

And I have made a copy of a very early Kenyon, like this one.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/kenyon-saw_zpsvmqbv8rw.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/kenyon-saw_zpsvmqbv8rw.jpg.html)

So, now you have two pictures and documented evidence that backsaws once upon a time came with a tapered blade. How much more do you need ;)

Somewhere in the 19th century they obviously changed to parallel blades, and indeed they shifted often. Earlier saws are really very rare. So I think that is no wonder that you only find parallel ones where the plate has slipped in the spine.

Because normal handsaws are always tapered, this habbit going back the medieval "breadknife" saws, I think that it is no surpise that the first backsaws also were tapered.

[Kees Heiden]

BTW, all the Seaton chest saws are tapered, not much, just a few mm. The large tenon has the most taper indeed.

[Mel Fulks]

The oldest backsaw I have is a Webster 16" with 3/4 " taper.

[Pete Taran]

Guys,

I just don't buy it. My experience dictates otherwise. And, Kees, I think you make my point. Not many saws from those days exist. So, for those that do, isn't it reasonable to expect that they are the ones that are the most abused, dropped, banged, pounded and in general beat up examples? All others being relegated to scraper stock or the dump? In fact, I'll name it and call it the Taran Backsaw Corollary. That is, the amount of backsaw blade taper is directly proportional to it's age. :D

When I get a minute, I'll look for the patent papers on the Peace Patent. He waxes poetic about the dangers of blade taper in the submission.

Either way, Derek did a great job in his restoration.

Regards,

Pete

[Kees Heiden]

From Nicholson, The Mechanic's companion. Definitely tapered, even in the 1850 edition!

343084

The Dalaway saw, also 18th century.

343086

There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that backsaws started out tapered. A clue is that they ALSO tapered the spines of those old saws, something that doesn't change through time. I am afraid you will have to update your Taran Backsaw Corrolary a little bit. Put the change of fashion point somewhere in the first half of the 19th century and it might even be correct.

[Pete Taran]

Kees,

Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that isn't the case. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Happy Sawing, tapered or not!

Pete

[Phil Mueller]

Great tip Pete, thanks!

[Kees Heiden]

Kees,

Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that isn't the case. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Happy Sawing, tapered or not!

Pete

Sure, that's the whole purpose of a discussionforum isn't it?

[george wilson]

I have to go with Kees on the tapered saw blade issue. We copied all the saws we reproduced,except for the White backsaw and the Dalaway, from the Seaton Chest. The Dalaway dovetail saw is one we copied for our thinnest dovetail saw in the group of back saws we made for the Historic Area craftsmen. It had a .015" blade,and was the most popular of our smaller saws because of the thin blade. But,we put a brass back on ours. I don't recall who told us to use a brass back. Probably Jay Gaynor. Ours had a tapered blade,but somewhat wider than the blade shown,which was probably worn down from use.

We debated as to WHY blades were tapered. Possibly to help keep the saws from being front end heavy? Crosscut and rip saws also (obviously) have tapered blades. Was it just to keep the design of back saws "in line" with these saws? That sounds a bit silly,but tool makers were,like everyone else way back then,a very conservative bunch. Things evolved very slowly. These days,it's more like "everything goes",good design or not.

Blades HAD to be deeper in the rear part,to clear the handles' thicknesses. Still doesn't really explain why their front ends were tapered.Jon is on your right. You can see from the saws just in front of him that they were tapered. And,these were made from UNUSED original Kenyon saws(except for the Whites and the little Dalaways). The White saws are roughly made compared to the later 18th. C. Kenyons. They did not yet even have specialized saw screws. English tool making gets more crude the farther back you go. Certainly the tools from the Mary Rose are quite crude.

Here are 3 pictures of details of the White saw,and one overall picture of a batch of back saws. I did not take pictures of the individual saws. There is a sample of each saw on the foremost end of the bench. The 5th from the left is a Cartwright. Another earlier saw,but not as early as the Whites,which,IIRC,was from about 1765. Unfortunately,the blades overlap,though. Look in front of Jon to see tapered blades that are Kenyons.

Any suggestions why back saws were tapered?

[Kees Heiden]

Yep, and after you published the pictures of the saw on this forum, I made a copy too. It's still one of my favourites. Simple, yet plenty elegant enough for me. Thanks for that George.

[James Pallas]

I really don't know much about saws. I do believe I know some about woodworkers. They are a very inventive bunch. Could it be that a woodworker just added a back at some point. From there the makers just applied a back to their already tapered plates and away it went. They would have had to reset up to make straight plates.
Jim

[Kees Heiden]

I think that is exactly what happened. Things didn't change overnight back then, like George also explains two posts above. Plate saws were firmly established back in the 16th/17th century, (allthough the majority of saws seen in paintings and pictures from that time are still framesaws). Those platesaws are invariably tapered towards the toe. Earlier examples look like an oversized breadknife, later ones like the Dutch saws from the guild period had a handle like we know from dovetail saws put attached to a tang from the plate, a bit like a modern gent saw.

343149

And then suddenly in the 18th century the English backsaw appears! Fully develloped with (tapered) spine, tapered blade and handle rivetted to the plate. Backsaws have been mentioned in earlier texts, but there is no picture.

An article about this missing link from Ray Gardiner: http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=74

[george wilson]

We had to make several early saws for Jamestown 1607 to use. Some of them were Dutch saws,like the one Kees posted above. The "umbrella handle" (as Jon and I dubbed it) was surprisingly easy to saw with. It doesn't look that way in the picture,though.

We were supposed to make them a bunch of planes,too,but they never got around to placing an order for them. They seemed like a disorganized bunch over there. I think what they liked to do the most was sail their largest ship(quite a small one!),the "Susan Constant" down to Norfolk for the "Harbor Fest" festival every year. I went to Yorktown to see the "Hermionie"(sp?) when it first sailed from France. One of the Jamestown's smaller ships (there are 3) was docked beside it. It looked like a large lifeboat compared to the Hermionie,an 18th. C. replica that had just been completed. What a beautiful piece of woodworking it was!! Unfortunately,we were unable to go below decks. They apparently had built cabins below decks for the privacy of the female members of the crew. The ship did have real cast iron cannon,as opposed to the fiberglass shells of cannon you normally see. When I was aboard the "Victory",(Lord Nelson's victorious ship at Trafalgar),docked in a drydock at Portsmouth.England,it had only these shells of cannon. The old hull was deemed too weak to stand the weight of real guns. The whole ship had been replanked with pine,rather than the original oak. I guess oak was too scarce in England at the time of the rebuilding. Or they just didn't have the budget(more likely). They seemed to be hurting for money,from what one of the staff said. They had only one remaining flintlock firing mechanism that still worked. At noon they did fire a salute with that mechanism mounted on the salute gun.

But,at the Tower of London,everything was English brown oak. Beautiful stuff,too! Many thousands of board feet must have been used in reconstructing the interior. The original building had been gutted by fire at some point in its history. I forget when. The large hall,which was currently used as the cafeteria,had an enormous ceiling,full of very large oak beams. You could have framed up a pretty large house with the wood in that ceiling!

I remember the clever folding chairs in the captain's cabin on the Victory. Half way down the sides of the chairs,they folded flat after the seat was removed. In battle,there were cannon in the cabin,which were used in the fight. All the collapsible walls of the officer's quarters were taken down and stowed,too.

I loved the way the cabin looked,with the long, curved row of windows in the back. Im one of the nice side windows,which ballooned out,was a smallish,sheet metal bath tub for the captain. On the other side was his toilet. Nothing more than a mahogany plank with holes through it to sit on. I am sure that in a storm,sea water could sometimes gush up through those holes! The crew's "seats of ease",as they were called,were 6 holes(I think),in the bow,behind the curved,decorative railings there. And this was for what? about 400 men? One of the jobs of the newest seaman was cleaning off the splatters beneath those seats of ease. I don't know what they did in heavy seas,when the whole bow would be buried in waves! Probably just hang out over the sides? No privacy at all!