Need Help To ID and Date an Older Simonds Rip Saw

[Mark R Webster]

I picked a few old hand saws recently and was trying to figure out the model# and approximate age of one in particular. It is a Simonds 4 tpi 28" long with a skew back. I can't see a number below the main etching but below the smaller one to the right looks like (U. "something". 0.) Here are some picks. Any ideas? Thanks
342857342858342859342860

[Pete Taran]

Mark,

The only Simonds saw marked Simonds (not Bay State Mfg Co which bore their second quality line) that didn't have a wheat embellished handle was the #10. The conundrum is that the saw would have a Simonds medallion if it were, and not a "Warranted Superior" Medallion like yours does. Further, they didn't make the #10 in a 28" blade. I do not have as many catalogs for Simonds as I do Disston, but this saw seems to be an oddity to me. Either the handle was replaced (likely) or was a saw made under contract. I've seen quite a few saws marked NRA (National Recovery Act) or after some Raiload (PRR--Pa Rail Road). If there is something under the left Simonds Steel etch, I'm guessing that is what it is. Looks to be 20s manufacture to me. For contract saws, the sky is the limit as the customer would stipulate exactly what they wanted...and all the big makers were happy to oblige.

Regards,

Pete

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks for the info. Hopefully we can get others to comment as well. :)

[Mark R Webster]

I found this in my searching, does it shed any light?
342861

[Pete Taran]

Mark,

That's interesting. The earliest Simonds catalog I have is the 1923 edition which does not have the #9. It must have passed out of production before then. My comments on the medallion still apply though. As you can see from the etch you show, the saw is marked Simonds. As such, the medallion should have Simonds on it as well, not warranted superior.

Regards,

Pete

[Mark R Webster]

hmmm :confused: Thanks if the handle or medallion was replace it was done extreme well. hmmm Thanks Pete :)

[Pete Taran]

Mark,

The fact that there is an etch below the smaller shield tells me it was likely a special made saw for some company. There is no way to tell the date unless you can tell what that company was. Here in 2016, we can only guess what they did 100 years ago. Saw makers were pretty consistent about using Warranted Superior medallions only on saws made for others or second quality saws. The saw you have doesn't fit neatly into any of the categories which make sense unfortunately. Looks like you have a good start on cleaning it up. I hope you put it to good use. 4 point are not common and they can really make some dust.

Regards,

Pete

[Mark R Webster]

So you still feel it was a 20s vintage? Thanks for all your input!!

[Mike Allen1010]

hi Mark,

There is little I can add to Pete's comments as he is one of the leading experts on vintage hand saws. We are truly lucky here on SMC to benefit from his insight.

FWIW, as Pete mentioned, the 28 inch length and 4 PPI configuration is very hard to find, the standard was 26 inch length, 5 PPI. This alone qualifies you for a "you suck" comment (BTW, do we do that anymore for tool gloats? Mark, I surely mean no offense!).

Personally I'm a big fan of Simonds handsaw's, in my experience there are they are always extremely well made with good quality steel. If your ever happened across one of their "Blue Ribbon" models, so named because I believe they won a blue ribbon in the 2010 Paris world fair for best tools, I would encourage you to put it back to use. IMHO, they are on par with other top-of-the-line Golden era saw such as the Disston #12, #16, 115 and the Atkins 400 series.

All the best, Mike

[Pete Taran]

I do indeed


So you still feel it was a 20s vintage? Thanks for all your input!!

[Mike Allen1010]

I'm certainly no expert, but I believe Simonds only manufactured handsaw's from around 1900 to 1928 so anything from them is definitely a Golden era saw – a period when saws were manufactured with technology like double taper grinding, hand tensioning etc. that no longer exist today. Good reason to visit Pete's site, vintage saws.com and find one for yourself. I have several times and have never been disappointed.

All the best, Mike

[Mark R Webster]

So... first of all I am not offended easily ;) but I am not sure I understand the "you suck" reference. Are you saying I found a saw of greater value or it is a hybrid of with minimal value so great job at finding a flop. If it has value, can anyone venture an estimate as to value. Same question if it is "just another hybrid". :rolleyes:

[Nicholas Lawrence]

It is not an insult. It means something along the lines of "you found a cool old tool and I am jealous of you."

[Pete Taran]

Mark,

Such light hearted antics were common back in the day when we started the old tools list back in the early 90s. It was always meant as an envious compliment. Sometimes even followed with a meep meep!

Regards,

Pete

[Mark R Webster]

Cool! :cool:

[Pat Barry]

(BTW, do we do that anymore for tool gloats? Mark, I surely mean no offense!).
e
No, that phrase has been outlawed here at SMC as being too offensive.

[Mark R Webster]

Honestly I was not offended:)

[Mike Allen1010]

No, that phrase has been outlawed here at SMC as being too offensive.


my sincerest apologies! I feel like an idiot – my bad.

[Pat Barry]

No worries. Its a long kind of sad story I think.

[Mark R Webster]

Appreciate the input :)

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Mike!

[Brent Cutshall]

The saw is actually a Simonds No. 10 1/2. SImonds not SIMonds!

[Karl Andersson]

FWIW, my eyes see the bottom of an "S" after the U -it could be marked USOD, for US Ordnance Department, which purchased many supplies for the military prior to the second world war (I think they were absorbed into the different services during or just after that war). Some of the Stanley/Fray X-3 braces are marked US Ordnance Department, dating between the wars. Nice saw
Karl

[Pete Taran]

I agree it could be a 10 1/2 owing to the lack of wheat carving on the handle. However, the fact that the medallion is not marked Simonds is a big deal. Has the same importance then as selling an iPhone today without "apple" or their logo on it. Also, if it were a 10 1/2, you would see that model number on the blade below the main etch, or at least the remnants of it. I don't see any sign it was ever etched with a model number. If it does say USOD, then it was some contracted saw that Simonds made especially for them, which is also the reason it doesn't have a model number on it.

[Mark R Webster]

Ok I know very little about characterizing handsaws so I appreciate the information. I am a little confused though, when I look up the 10 1/2 the screw/bolt pattern on the handle is different from mine. Why do you feel it is a 10 1/2 versus the No 9 which seems to have the same hole pattern. Did they make different patterns within a saw model. Is it the fact that my saw is 28 inches long that takes it from the 9s. Regarding the USOD, that does make sense with the generic medallion and the lack of number below the etching. So I guess I am still wondering about the hole pattern with respect to the 10 1/2 and why it wouldn't be a 9. As a side note does anyone have any idea of the $ value and value to a collector in general since it is not part of the standard line of saws.

[Pete Taran]

Mark,

No way to know. The only people that know for sure are the ones who were in the plant 100 years ago when it was made. Dating/model identification works in most cases, but sometimes there is no real way to know for sure what was intended when looking at something in 2016. One thing is for sure and anyone in business will tell you. Businesses sell what people want to buy. If that included a stained purple hardwood handle saw with a 99 model number, they would make that for you. Is that model in any catalog? Nope. Does it fit any of the known published models? Nope. It is what it is. Just like your saw...it doesn't fit any of the known models. So, using the Occam's razor approach, the theory with the fewest assumptions is probably the correct one. A long winded way to say anyone who can say with certainty the answer to your question is on the other side of the dirt.

Regards,

Pete

[Mark R Webster]

Chuckle Chuckle :) Thanks Pete

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Karl. I think it your right. US Ordnance Dept.
I have the saw pretty much restored at this point but I am missing one of the screw's slotted half. Any suggestions where I could find one, I have already checked Ebay. The missing piece is the slotted side, steel or nickel plated, 9/16" Diameter at the top, shaft OD1/4", 3/8" overall length top of the screw to bottom.

[Pete Taran]

Mark,

The easiest thing is to go to a local swap meet or garage sale and buy a junker, rusted up saw with the hardware you need. If you pay more than a couple bucks, you are paying to much. Just make sure that the nuts are the same size...there are really only two major diameters (with a lot of variation in each size). I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find a suitable candidate quickly for little cost.

Regards,

Pete

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Pete, heading to a swap meet this morning. :)