Firmer Chisels

[Stewie Simpson]

Today I spent some time free hand honing a set of 6 WM Marples Firmer Chisels with Boxwood Handles. Early Sheffield Steel. Excellent quality.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0191_zpsfgrx6gui.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0191_zpsfgrx6gui.jpg.html)

No steel hoops on the end of these chisels handles, so they need to be struck with a wooden mallet.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg.html)

If your wondering what's in the wooden box. Its a set of 7 WM Marples Firmer Chisels that need to be freshly honed.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0193_zpsmcdgjr5j.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0193_zpsmcdgjr5j.jpg.html)

Stewie;

[James Pallas]

Those are some very nice chisels. Kind of a do anything but dovetail chisels and better for it too. Stout enough to do most operations.
Jim

[Frederick Skelly]

I agree - nice set, look like they fit nicely in the hand. Do they? Also, how old do you think they might be?
Im also interested in their box - I like the way the chisels are held in place, with pegs at the front and a catch/bracket at the back. I think I'll copy that. Thanks Stewie!

Fred.

[lowell holmes]

When I was just getting into hand tools, I thought they were mortise chisels. In that day, mortise chisels were not common. The square edges did a credible job.
The local tool stores just did not offer mortise chisels.
I still have two of them. I don't use them much, but I will not let go of them.

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Fred; the boxwood handled Firmer Chisels are listed in the following WM Marples & Sons 1930 - 1939 Catalogue Listing; page 5, item 317. Courtesy Toolemera.com. http://toolemera.com/bkpdf/MarplesCat1938.pdf

The chisel handles have an excellent shape and fit within the hand. The Australian Cedar box I made for the set of 7 chisels has a slide plate installed opposite the leather honing block, to allow the chisel backs to be flat honed.

Stewie;

[george wilson]

I have several of those older boxwood handled Marples firmer chisels too. My "go to" set of chisels is my old set of bevel edged Marples chisels with ash handles,bought about 1964. All the work I posted here was made with those chisels,where chisels were needed.

I do not advise buying NEW Marples chisels. Some makers have gone to making their chisels SOFT to not get sued by a shard breaking off into someone's eyes. From what I have read,Marples MIGHT(repeat MIGHT) have gone that way. I can't be sure. I have always found Sorby chisels to be too soft,even older ones from the 60's. I had to re harden some older Sorby lathe chisels that we had in the toolmaker's shop. Then,they were o.k.. My old Marples are just fine,though.

[Pat Barry]

I do not advise buying NEW Marples chisels. Some makers have gone to making their chisels SOFT to not get sued by a shard breaking off into someone's eyes. From what I have read,Marples MIGHT(repeat MIGHT) have gone that way. I can't be sure.
George, you don't advise buying them because they might be soft and you don't know for sure? That seems kind of a poor reason not to buy them. Maybe if you knew for sure they were soft. Does anyone have any data about this? Otherwise it seems a bit of a stretch to indict them based on lack of real info.

[Mel Fulks]

A workmate bought bought a set and I demonstrated their inferiority in a test with MY chisels. That's what friends are for!

[Derek Cohen]

I have a love-like relationship with these chisels. I love the looks of the boxwood handles, but they are not an ideal shape for pushing. There is no rest to push against. I have a set of cranked and straight gouges, which I have used a good bit. I would still like to have a set of bevel edges chisels with these handles, just because they are so damn pretty. I am such a chisel-whore!

I also wonder how the steel of these iconic English chisels stacks up against the steel of a similar USA iconic chisel, the Stanley 750.

This is a set I re-handled in (West Australian) She-Oak (1/8" through 1") ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Stanley%20750%20Dovetails/750modified.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Pat,since I do not own a set of new Marples blue handled chisels myself,I felt that I could not give an actual experience based judgement about them. To be fair with Marples,I just stated that I have read MORE than several posts attesting to their softness,which is true. Are you finding some reason to deprecate what I have to say?

There are members who seem to rely upon my advice,so I have to be careful what advice I give,and only tell the truth about my own experience with products.

I see that Mel has had some actual experience with them. Does that help you?

I HAVE used Sorbys,even older ones that had been in the former "backup shop" for decades. They are always too soft.

[Luke Dupont]

Pat,since I do not own a set of new Marples blue handled chisels myself,I felt that I could not give an actual experience based judgement about them. To be fair with Marples,I just stated that I have read MORE than several posts attesting to their softness,which is true. Are you finding some reason to deprecate what I have to say?

There are members who seem to rely upon my advice,so I have to be careful what advice I give,and only tell the truth about my own experience with products.

I see that Mel has had some actual experience with them. Does that help you?

I HAVE used Sorbys,even older ones that had been in the former "backup shop" for decades. They are always too soft.

I've also heard the same thing about modern marples, for what it's worth.

Also, while it may not be a big deal to some people, apparently they have plastic handles now, which is a big turn off for me.

[george wilson]

Luke,after I have heard the same thing about new Marples chisels from many different people,I think it is perfectly reasonable for me to say that I wouldn't recommend them. And,I think you agree with that. I did NOT say "DO NOT BUY THEM!" I just said I can't recommend them. I don't know what Pat is trying to prove.

as far as I know they all do have blue plastic handles. If I didn't like them,I'd just remove them and turn some wooden ones IF I thought the chisels were worth the effort.

The ugliest handles I have seen are those huge honkers on the Swiss paring chisels. I have a set,and still haven't decided on the style of handles I want to make for them. I started making a set of octagonal boxwood London pattern handles for them,but decided that I just don't like the feel of them. I'm still undecided.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

...I think it is perfectly reasonable for mer to say that I wouldn't recommend them. And,I think you agree with that. I did NOT say "DO NOT BUY THEM!" I just said I can't recommend them. I don't know what Pat is trying to prove.



Subtle difference in understanding and statements between "I do not recommend this because I have heard negative things that I did not bother to substantiate" and "do not buy them". I expect that the subtle difference is between perpetuating unsubstantiated rumors, fact, and where in between does your knowledge sit. Your second statement sounds more like "I know lots of people who found them poor".

And no, I am not joining the fray.

[Jim Koepke]

Subtle difference in understanding and statements between "I do not recommend this because I have heard negative things that I did not bother to substantiate" and "do not buy them". I expect that the subtle difference is between perpetuating unsubstantiated rumors, fact, and where in between does your knowledge sit. Your second statement sounds more like "I know lots of people who found them poor".

And no, I am not joining the fray.

For all the things I love about SMC, there is this one thing that sometimes makes me want to walk away.

Someone offers their point of view or something they would like to share and someone else comes along and starts trash talking the person who had in essence said, "I can not advise on the purchase of or the suitability of this product." Also stating, "I do not know."

Then someone comes along turning it in to a metamorphosis of an across the board condemnation of the product and challenging the poster at the same time. I do not like this when it happens to me. I do not think it should happen to others.

There have been many posts about blue handle Marples chisels not holding an edge. Use the SMC search box on > marples chisel soft < to find these posts.

I have one 1/4" blue handle Marples chisel. I can not claim its inability to hold an edge gives me an insight into every other Marples chisel.

The blue handle and its associated discomfort is enough for me to not advise purchasing them. I do not know! Maybe you will like the handle.

It would be a lot better to not challenge the messenger. Instead offer your own experience or what you have heard as to why the product may be better than its reputation.

jtk

[george wilson]

Well,Jim,some people just like to TRY to cause me trouble. I couldn't care less. What I said was ,as you point out,perfectly reasonable.

[Pat Barry]

Pat,since I do not own a set of new Marples blue handled chisels myself,I felt that I could not give an actual experience based judgement about them. To be fair with Marples,I just stated that I have read MORE than several posts attesting to their softness,which is true. Are you finding some reason to deprecate what I have to say?

There are members who seem to rely upon my advice,so I have to be careful what advice I give,and only tell the truth about my own experience with products.

I see that Mel has had some actual experience with them. Does that help you?

I HAVE used Sorbys,even older ones that had been in the former "backup shop" for decades. They are always too soft.
Like I said, the way you presented your initial recommendation was merely heresay. Not deprecating anything at all about you or your advice. Let's just not delve into gossip and pose it as substance. No offense intended. Now everyone is piling on me.

[Jim Koepke]

Like I said, the way you presented your initial recommendation was merely heresay.

Be careful what you say, people have been burned for that:

342862

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Be careful what you say, people have been burned for that:

342862

jtk
Heresay, maybe should have been hear-say. Didn't mean heresy.

[george wilson]

You spelled it right,Pat. But,who is "everyone"? I only see Jim "piling on"to you.

I don't agree that it is here say when many,many posts(as well as Mel's just a little above),say that the new Marples are too soft. This is one of those issues that have been discussed several times over recent years here,and on other fora.

[lowell holmes]

My experience with blue handle marples is a mixed bag. There are characteristics I like. The edge is a comfortable edge to work with. The problem is the steel is a bit soft and the edge has to be honed to keep it sharp. I used them in Paul Sellers classes I attended. There was a diamond hone and leather charged with compound. When the edge needed touching up, you went and hit the edge a few strokes and then honed it on the leather. You went back to your bench and continued working. I do something like that now except I'm using LN chisels and the honing compound is on mdf.

I still like the feel of the blue handles and do use them occasionally.

[Frederick Skelly]

For all the things I love about SMC, there is this one thing that sometimes makes me want to walk away.

Someone offers their point of view or something they would like to share and someone else comes along and starts trash talking the person who had in essence said, "I can not advise on the purchase of or the suitability of this product." Also stating, "I do not know."

Then someone comes along turning it in to a metamorphosis of an across the board condemnation of the product and challenging the poster at the same time. I do not like this when it happens to me. I do not think it should happen to others.

+1. Well said Jim.

[Patrick Chase]

You spelled it right,Pat. But,who is "everyone"? I only see Jim "piling on"to you.

Watch me smoothly replace Pat as the target.

He didn't spell it right. It's "hearsay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay)", not "heresay" (Pat) or "heresy" (Jim).

You engage in hearsay when you "hear" something out of court (or the forum in this case) and then you turn around and "say" the same thing in court without having directly witnessed the event in question. It's inadmissible in most circumstances (for a classic exception see "dying declaration") because the defense is prevented from confronting the accuser and because the original statement wasn't made under oath.

Note that if you hear someone say "I did it, I killed them" you can testify to the fact that they said it without engaging in hearsay, as the event you're testifying to is the admission of guilt, which you directly witnessed. OTOH if C hears B say "A shot me" then that would be inadmissible hearsay coming from C (unless B died thereafter as a result).

[Patrick Chase]

For all the things I love about SMC, there is this one thing that sometimes makes me want to walk away.

Someone offers their point of view or something they would like to share and someone else comes along and starts trash talking the person who had in essence said, "I can not advise on the purchase of or the suitability of this product." Also stating, "I do not know."

Then someone comes along turning it in to a metamorphosis of an across the board condemnation of the product and challenging the poster at the same time. I do not like this when it happens to me. I do not think it should happen to others.

I basically agree with you. George's post was reasonable, and I think a couple others over-reacted, but...

You can't take this stuff personally (and yes, I'm fully aware that I sometimes do). Everybody makes mistakes, and when we make mistakes on a forum it often ends up looking like what happened here.

[george wilson]

Some people just like to nit pick!:) And,from what I HEAR,Pat is one of them. Again,this is from what I HEAR. I'm not advising anyone to NOT vote for him for president (probably better than the exisiting candidates anyway)!!:) Let's see what he can make out of THIS post!!!:):):)

I didn't make any mistake,Patrick. What mistake do you think I made? I meant exactly what I said about the Marples chisels.If dozens of members complained that they are too soft,it JUST MIGHT BE TRUE!! I do make mistakes sometimes,but not on this issue. When I make mistakes,I admit it,and usually apologize.

Jim,your kind words are much appreciated. So are the others who have been supportive.

[Patrick Chase]

I didn't make any mistake,Patrick. What mistake do you think I made? I meant exactly what I said about the Marples chisels.If dozens of members complained that they are too soft,it JUST MIGHT BE TRUE!! I do make mistakes sometimes,but not on this issue. When I make mistakes,I admit it,and usually apologize.

Well, you hadn't made a mistake, but you just did by replying that defensively to my post without having actually read it :).

I said "George's post was reasonable, and I think a couple OTHERS over-reacted". Note emphasis.

[george wilson]

I am too full of pain killers to know what anyone is saying right now!!:)

But,I doubt that this nit picking is helping the original intent of the thread anyway!

[Patrick Chase]

I am too full of pain killers to know what anyone is saying right now!!:)

But,I doubt that this nit picking is helping the original intent of the thread anyway!

Very true, and that was the point I was trying to make in #23 before I got all cute and clever in my reply to you.

As I've said before, I appreciate and value your opinion and contributions. Given your depth of experience and the extent and quality of your connections within the woodworking world I value your hearsay for that matter, which is why I thought your original post was useful. This isn't a court of law, you made it clear that you were relating "indirect experience", and I think most folks here are smart enough to weight that appropriately.

w.r.t. painkillers, been there done that. I *hate* being fogged out. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[Jim Koepke]

w.r.t. painkillers, been there done that. I *hate* being fogged out.

+2 on that!

I tend to put up with the pain instead of dealing with the side effects of the medications. I have worked with my doctor to lessen the number of medications I take everyday. This started when I noticed feeling better on the days I would forget to take my pills.


Watch me smoothly replace Pat as the target.

He didn't spell it right. It's "hearsay", not "heresay" (Pat) or "heresy" (Jim).

I may have been remiss for not including a smiley with my post. I did include an image of the dictionary to indicate what it came to with "heresay" in the search box.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

On a side note, it would be convenient at times to have electrical outlets like the ones in at least Australia and England with the switches for each outlet. (these appear in Stewie's original post of this thread)

One lamp fixture in my shop doesn't have and individual switch and requires being plugged in or unplugged to turn it on and off.

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

For all the things I love about SMC, there is this one thing that sometimes makes me want to walk away.

Someone offers their point of view or something they would like to share and someone else comes along and starts trash talking the person who had in essence said, "I can not advise on the purchase of or the suitability of this product." Also stating, "I do not know."

Then someone comes along turning it in to a metamorphosis of an across the board condemnation of the product and challenging the poster at the same time. I do not like this when it happens to me. I do not think it should happen to others.

There have been many posts about blue handle Marples chisels not holding an edge. Use the SMC search box on > marples chisel soft < to find these posts.

I have one 1/4" blue handle Marples chisel. I can not claim its inability to hold an edge gives me an insight into every other Marples chisel.

The blue handle and its associated discomfort is enough for me to not advise purchasing them. I do not know! Maybe you will like the handle.

It would be a lot better to not challenge the messenger. Instead offer your own experience or what you have heard as to why the product may be better than its reputation.

jtk

Actually, I have participated in countless forums over the years, and SMC is one of the most civil and friendly communities that I've ever been a part of. I was actually pleasantly surprised when I joined.

I think that we must be careful of misinterpreting people's intentions too, though. Some people react very differently to statements -- one person may perceive that he's just being factual and offering information, whilst another might interpret it more personally or emotionally as if that person is attacking him or someone else, when that wasn't the intent.

And, in any case, strong opinions are always present with any subject.

[Malcolm McLeod]

On a side note, it would be convenient at times to have electrical outlets like the ones in at least Australia and England with the switches for each outlet. (these appear in Stewie's original post of this thread)

One lamp fixture in my shop doesn't have and individual switch and requires being plugged in or unplugged to turn it on and off.

jtk

Google "Leviton 5225"

[Jim Koepke]

Google "Leviton 5225"

Thanks Malcolm. That is a single outlet with a switch. For my purposes it would need to have two outlets. It may be something for future consideration to change out the box to hold a switch to control the outlets.

There are a few things that could use some changes in my shop wiring.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Some people just like to nit pick!:) And,from what I HEAR,Pat is one of them. Again,this is from what I HEAR. I'm not advising anyone to NOT vote for him for president (probably better than the exisiting candidates anyway)!!:) Let's see what he can make out of THIS post!!!:):):)

I didn't make any mistake,Patrick. What mistake do you think I made? I meant exactly what I said about the Marples chisels.If dozens of members complained that they are too soft,it JUST MIGHT BE TRUE!! I do make mistakes sometimes,but not on this issue. When I make mistakes,I admit it,and usually apologize.

Jim,your kind words are much appreciated. So are the others who have been supportive.
First off George, I love you! I enjoy hearing of your exploits as a young fella in Alaska, right on through the colonial period til today.

I have been told that I can be a bit strong-minded from time to time. Nit picking may or may not fall into that category. As far as running for president, that's not gonna happen obviously as I would quickly tire of the press/politics/second guessing of everything, but I do none-the-less intend to hold on to and practice my rights to respectfully disagree with whoever (whomoever?) we choose to elect this year.

[David Carroll]

A related question: I have seen chisels just like the OP posted referred to as "sash mortise chisels." (Of course they were narrow ones). I have several Buck "firmer" tang chisels which are somewhat thinner in section than those. I have some slightly stouter Sorby chisels that were sold (Woodcraft c. 1985) as "registered mortise chisels." I am unclear about the nomenclature.

Are they called "firmer" chisels because they are firmer than chisels that are thinner in section but not beveled? Or firmer than beveled? Registered?

[Jim Koepke]

A related question: I have seen chisels just like the OP posted referred to as "sash mortise chisels." (Of course they were narrow ones). I have several Buck "firmer" tang chisels which are somewhat thinner in section than those. I have some slightly stouter Sorby chisels that were sold (Woodcraft c. 1985) as "registered mortise chisels." I am unclear about the nomenclature.

Are they called "firmer" chisels because they are firmer than chisels that are thinner in section but not beveled? Or firmer than beveled? Registered?

The nomenclature of chisels is not a 'cut in stone' standard.

One thing I have read in the past was all it meant to be a firmer chisel is one that could be hit with a 'firmer' blow.

Registered mortise chisels, if my memory is working, means the sides are parallel as opposed to being slightly tapered as in the case on many mortise chisels.

Here is another place to look:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

In section #4 Bob Smalser posted an article on chisels. It may be missing some images. As I recall he used an off SMC photo storage site and those old links may not work or the images may have been deleted from the site where they were stored.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

A related question: I have seen chisels just like the OP posted referred to as "sash mortise chisels." (Of course they were narrow ones). I have several Buck "firmer" tang chisels which are somewhat thinner in section than those. I have some slightly stouter Sorby chisels that were sold (Woodcraft c. 1985) as "registered mortise chisels." I am unclear about the nomenclature.

Are they called "firmer" chisels because they are firmer than chisels that are thinner in section but not beveled? Or firmer than beveled? Registered?

"Registered" simply means that the chisel has parallel sides. Firmer chisels are therefore inherently registered.

Sash mortise chisels are basically heavy-duty firmer chisels in overall shape/pattern. I have however seen such chisels with tapered sides, so they're not all registered/firmer strictly speaking, though I may be splitting hairs here.