Carbide Inserts for Turning...Difficult

[Larry Frank]

I have gotten interesting responses to my posts about using carbide inserts.

"....difficult to get nice finish..."

"...difficult to make clean cuts....."

"...Carbide tools are just not going to get the job done...."

OK...exactly what is it about carbide inserts? I understand that a tool like a bowl gouge is quite different. However, there are other tools with similar geometry as the inserts. Is there real differences or is this a traditional versus new phenomena.

Just as a note...I do not intend to try to be an expert turner as some on the forum. I want to be able to turn some easy things to complement other woodworking such as a tool handle or simple turned box. I do not want to invest a lot of money in sharpening set up for turning tools but want to have sharp tools. Many of the frequent posters are great turners with a high level of expertise and their posts exhibit it. However, for those of us with lesser aspirations and capability, are the carbide inserts a good way of having sharp tools.

The answer for me is yes. I made a set of tools for less than $50 and they will stay sharp with almost no effort. I have used mine for turning several items and am happy with them.

[glenn bradley]

Here's an answer from someone who is not a turner but, turns occasional items. Carbide insert tools allow me to make an item on my very first try. I do not turn green material; I am making parts for flat work. The height and angle of the tool is different than "regular" tools. The surface left will need sanding. Like any cutter, the inserts lose their edge and need sharpening which is very straight forward for flat face inserts.

[John Grace]

From my vantage point. Carbides are by far the easiest tool to pick-up and begin turning with little learning curve and the ability to produce a finished product. On the more empirical side, carbides will leave a finish that requires a greater amount of sanding...of course that being relative to the sharpness of the cutter, type of wood (some exotics and soft metals work best when turned with carbide), wood orientation. There's obviously more to it but that's that side of things. Now for the more subjective...conventional/traditional tools will leave a cleaner surface and as a general rule are cheaper to use. Replacing the inserts can become pricey and while they can be honed rather quickly, in my opinion, no amount of hand honing can return them to OEM sharpness. Then of course you have the woodturner's ego to consider. If you've not noticed already, you'll find those turners who turn their noses towards carbides and dismiss them for any number of reasons...many valid while others remain subjective. As for myself, I started out with carbides because I couldn't afford a sharpening system and wasn't comfortable starting the sharpening learning curve itself. After a couple of years of using nothing but carbides I began venturing into the traditional turning tool world and use them now for about 90% of all of my turning. And while I now prefer my conventional tools I still maintain and use my carbides regular. Why? Because they're simply a tool and each tool I own and use serves a specific purpose and I cringe a little when I read others disparage someone using carbides. To paraphrase that a good craftsman never blames his tools...one turner should think long before belittling the methods of other turners. My two cents...

[Glen Blanchard]

As others have said in this thread, there is nothing wrong with carbide tools as long as you know their limitations. Most carbides, with the exception of the Hunter cutters, are scrapers and will leave a surface that needs a fair amount of sanding. This may not be an issue for you. It wasn't for me when I first began to turn. However, as time went on, I realized there are features that can be muddied or even virtually destroyed if too much sanding is required. The sharp angles on many finials would be one prime example. As I began to demand more from my efforts, I have moved away from using carbides exclusively. That being said, I still use them on most pieces to a varying extent. IMHO,there is nothing wrong with using carbide cutters although many look down their noses at them.

If you will only be turning occasionally, carbide cutters may be the perfect fit - for both ease of use and cost. However, beware the vortex! When I bought my first lathe 4 years ago, my intent was to make an occasional finial for the flatwork boxes I was making at the time. I have done virtually no flatwork since I fired up that lathe for the first time.

[William C Rogers]

Larry, I'm not one of the talented turners. I'm trying to be! I started with the classic tools, but wanted to try carbide. I also bought some Thompson tools about the same time. I made 3 carbide tools. Bottom line is I much prefer using the Thompson tools over the carbide. I'm not sure that I could just use carbide for turning. Simple tool handles yes, lidded boxes would be hard for me to just use carbide. If it works for what you want to do great, but I want to try new things and really don't like carbide tools vs standard tools.

[John K Jordan]

Larry,

I think you hit the key point when you described the things you like to make and your goals. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think misunderstanding these things is behind the "clean cuts" and "nice finish comments.

A big difference between using the typical carbide insert and an expertly sharpened gouge is the way the wood fibers are either cleanly cut or more torn. Depending on the goal and level of expertise, one may be as good as the other. One may not require the same amount of sanding. One may allow a better surface or much finer detail in the final piece, also related to the sanding process.

Simple carbide insert tools could serve one person for a lifetime while others might be unsatisfied. One danger we have seen is the the beginning turner who starts with carbide tools and finds them so easy to use might not develop the tool control needed if he did want to increase his expertise. I think learning this control is so important that when I teach beginners I always start with the skew chisel. If they layer discover another type of turning is right for them, more power to them. They are making shavings and things from wood! Not everyone can or would even want to be the next Ellsworth or Clewes.

One point about carbide inserts. I have used the EWT and the Hunter Tools. The cutter Mike Hunter uses, along with the way it is mounted, allows it to be easily used in a "bevel-rubbing" fiber cutting mode instead of the coarser scraping mode. This allows finish cuts so clean (with a steady hand!) that I can often start sanding with 600 grit or finer paper or even no sandpaper at all. Clean finish cuts are especially important with wood prone to tearout. I invite anyone interested who is near or driving near Knoxville one day to come to my shop to see and play with some of these tools. Bring your favorite carbide tools to compare.

Edit: I forgot to make clear that even with the clean cuts with the Hunter tools, there are many things they cannot do where a gouge or skew is far better. I use the Hunter where appropriate but the "traditional" tools for most of my turning. I keep a variety to chose from, many ground differently for different purposes. I most often reach for those made by Doug Thompson.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

The reason so many find them easy to use is that they are small scrapers. Scrapers are a fairly simple tool to use, though many don't use them to the extent that I do. Some where down the line you have to learn to sharpen if you want to keep turning fun. I prefer scrapers for all of my roughing, but want high shear angle cuts for all finish cuts, which some of the carbide tipped tools can do.

robo hippy

[Alan Heffernan]

I just had the pleasure of meeting and seeing a demo by Jimmy Clewes. He uses carbide "cutters" for hollowing. He has a signature tool made by Hunter that I have seen him use and it works extremely well for hollowing.

My carbide tools are for hollowing. I am making a shift to carbide cutters vs. carbide scrapers. John K. Jordan makes the distinction above about the difference.

[Bob Bouis]

In my experience the carbide tools stay "pretty sharp," but not sharp enough for finish cuts. With HSS you can easily put a fresh edge on whenever required.

[Roger Chandler]

There is a bottom line factor to turning........you cannot turn successfully without sharp tools, plain and simple truth. Now, you can use carbide scrapers, but even they will get dull......not as quickly as other metals, but they will dull, and you will have to replace the inserts......over time that will cost you as much or more than a sharpening setup. Might take a while, but it will prove more expensive in the long run, provided you turn with some frequency.

Just getting into turning or just wanting to turn a few small things now & then, well your plan seems viable, but you will have to do the additional sanding and such to get a good finish, which in and of itself will require the purchase of more abrasives, which adds to the cost as well. You can do it your way, and it will work, but if you want the long term enjoyment from turning, then try to get a sharpening system when you can, and transition to bowl/spindle gouges; and to really take you to higher levels, then join a turning club.........it will take light years off your learning curve. Good luck Larry!

[Steve Peterson]

I have a square tool that I like for roughing things out. Once it is nearly round, I switch to a normal bowl gouge to leave a better finish. You can't really ride the bevel with a carbide tool.

I also have a round tool on a round shaft that catches all the time. It seems to roll into the wood and bites deeper, then BAM, a huge catch. I probably need to spend some time learning how to hold it so it pushes away when it grabs. The videos make it look really easy.

Steve

[John K Jordan]

...I prefer scrapers for all of my roughing, but want high shear angle cuts for all finish cuts, which some of the carbide tipped tools can do.
robo hippy

Reed, do you prefer scrapers for roughing face work or spindle work or both? For spindle work, especially long, thin spindles, I can't see using anything but a spindle roughing gouge or a big skew. (My favorite spindle roughing gouge is the StLeger model that Doug Thompson makes, used without a handle. Whatever works.

End grain boxes, I like scrapers. Some were surprised at how I hollow these little handbell ornaments - I turn the outside first then hollow the inside with an old Sears diamond parting tool! I sight from the top to get the angle right and just push the parting tool in - takes out the inside SO quickly! Then I either use the wing of a swept-back spindle gouge and/or a small Hunter carbide tool (in the scraping mode) to smooth the inside. It takes very little sanding for a good finish.

I cut one made from Tulipwood in half both to check the shape of the wall and to show people how I make the other pieces and assemble.

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JKJ

[Stan Smith]

From my vantage point. Carbides are by far the easiest tool to pick-up and begin turning with little learning curve and the ability to produce a finished product. On the more empirical side, carbides will leave a finish that requires a greater amount of sanding...of course that being relative to the sharpness of the cutter, type of wood (some exotics and soft metals work best when turned with carbide), wood orientation. There's obviously more to it but that's that side of things. Now for the more subjective...conventional/traditional tools will leave a cleaner surface and as a general rule are cheaper to use. Replacing the inserts can become pricey and while they can be honed rather quickly, in my opinion, no amount of hand honing can return them to OEM sharpness. Then of course you have the woodturner's ego to consider. If you've not noticed already, you'll find those turners who turn their noses towards carbides and dismiss them for any number of reasons...many valid while others remain subjective. As for myself, I started out with carbides because I couldn't afford a sharpening system and wasn't comfortable starting the sharpening learning curve itself. After a couple of years of using nothing but carbides I began venturing into the traditional turning tool world and use them now for about 90% of all of my turning. And while I now prefer my conventional tools I still maintain and use my carbides regular. Why? Because they're simply a tool and each tool I own and use serves a specific purpose and I cringe a little when I read others disparage someone using carbides. To paraphrase that a good craftsman never blames his tools...one turner should think long before belittling the methods of other turners. My two cents...

Very well said <<Why? Because they're simply a tool and each tool I own and use serves a specific purpose and I cringe a little when I read others disparage someone using carbides.>> Exactly. I have bought tools for specific purposes and then have not used them again for a long time. I've sold some and a couple of times have wished that I hadn't sold them. I've had skews for years, but was afraid to use them until I finally watched some youtubes. There's more subjectivity in tool selection than many care to admit.

[Aaron Craven]

I prefer traditional tools (gouges, skews, etc) for most things, personally. But that's me.

Your original post says it all. Carbides are the right choice for you in terms of function and in terms of price. More importantly, you said you're happy with them. That's all you need to know. You don't need anyone to validate that for you.

Go forth and create!

[Brice Rogers]

I have a square tool that I like for roughing things out. Once it is nearly round, I switch to a normal bowl gouge to leave a better finish. You can't really ride the bevel with a carbide tool.

I also have a round tool on a round shaft that catches all the time. It seems to roll into the wood and bites deeper, then BAM, a huge catch. I probably need to spend some time learning how to hold it so it pushes away when it grabs. The videos make it look really easy.

Steve

Steve, I've had catches with my (flat) round one too. I use the round one inside of bowls with lips and hollow-forms. What helps me is to reduce that affect is to limit the amount of tool overhang to perhaps an inch or less if possible. I have a tool rest that I can stick into a vessel/hollow form that allows me to do that. Also, I sometimes will rotate the tool so that it isn't flat and try to cut towards the end - - so it is perhaps a shear scrape. When I can get towards the middle to bottom of the piece, I like when I can switch to my "bottom feeder" (it isn't carbide though). It is a bowl gouge with about an 80 degree angle at the end. It does a nice job on the bottoms of bowls and isn't terribly aggressive.

[John K Jordan]

..I switch to a normal bowl gouge to leave a better finish. You can't really ride the bevel with a carbide tool..

Hi Steve,

Just wondering, have you tried the Hunter Osprey and Hercules tools? Riding the bevel like you would with a bowl gouge works well. You can make extremely fine cuts, presumably because the shape of the carbide insert itself (a deep cup, extremely sharp), the angle it is mounted in the tool, and the shape of the tool.

Here are a few of the Hunter tools I use that have the cutter mounted on an angle:
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The bottom one is the new "Clewes Mate". The angle is different and I'm still getting used to it but for now I find it more aggressive than the others. It's made on a wide, flat bar which beginners find easier to control when used as a scraper - just plant it firmly flat on the tool rest and hog away.

John Lucas and others have made some videos about using the Hunter tools in the bevel-rubbing mode.

This video starts with a closeup of the Hunter cutter which might be interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo

I find the Hercules and Osprey easier to control than the tools with the cutters mounted flat. Here John shows the Hercules tool used as a scraper for roughing, as a gouge in the bevel-rubbing mode for clean cuts, and as a shear scraper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzrLN8SQ8ms

And this one on the Osprey:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnFdDo0jxGU

This short video shows an end grain cut.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4m7yybTStQ

I've been turning colored acrylic lately (another thread) and when I use the Osprey and Hercules in the bevel-rubbing mode the finish is amazing - it's so clean it looks polished. Scraping cuts work on this material as well but leave the surface rough. In the bevel-rubbing mode with acrylic I can start with 600 or finer sandpaper unless my hand is not steady. Like other carbide inserts, the cutter can be rotated to a sharp section when worn or (ack!) if chipped.

I have a small set of Mike Hunter's tools good for hollowing smaller vessels, boxes, and such and some much larger I use with massive handles for bigger things. This picture (which I took to show some texturing on handles and some tool-holder inserts I make) shows one of the swan neck tools:

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In case this sounds like an advertisement for Hunter, my position is only that of a satisfied customer. (Although I have known Mike for a long time and have sent him a lot of money!)

The tools with round cutters you mentioned are probably like the round steel cutters popular some years back. Big catches are indeed likely unless the angle is just right (can be used like a shear scraper) AND like other scrapers, the cutter positioned so it is deflected away from instead of into the wood. I don't use the round cutters any more but I do use a couple of sizes of teardrop-shaped HSS cutters as shear scrapers on the inside of things.

JKJ