Trimwork costs. Am I on drugs??

[John Cavanaugh]

So Ive been trying to get some baseboards installed in my house, but Ive been so busy at work and too tired on the weekend to make much progress.

I thought I would just pay someone to do it for me. I called around had a few guys come out and give me quotes.

Since I had already started the work I had materials etc. So all I needed was Labor.

Basic install of some 5 1/2 MDF Base, no qtr round, caulk, paint etc. Size of job is about 500 linear feet. Only potential complication is that I have bullnose corners which means some extra work on the outside corners.

Quote #1 - 3k for everything including painting. Since the guy was recommended by a friend of a friend, I went to see the work. It was terrible. You could see the obvious seams between the corner pieces from 10ft away. The spackling was done too quickly and shrank so you can still see the nail hole divots. The paint was applied before installation, with just 'touchups" after install.

Quote #2 - 4k just for install & caulk, no painting. That $8/lf!!! The painting was estimated to be an additional 2.5k ($5/lf)


For the price & quality I am thinking these are extremely high. Am I on drugs???

--
John Cavanaugh

[Corey Hallagan]

Holy Smokes, I don't know if it is comparitively high to others or not but it is to rich for my blood. I would definitely do it myself. I always paint the trim first then cut and install. If you are in an old home where walls are seldom square then calking is a must if you .45 the corners. I like to cope the corners myself. Then I spend several days of nail hole filling and refilling and then touch up painting. Since I am remodelling my house and have done mold and trim on three rooms and working on the living room, it seems I have approximately 3000. in a shopping tool spree due!

Corey

[Lee DeRaud]

Quote #2 - 4k just for install & caulk, no painting. That $8/lf!!! The painting was estimated to be an additional 2.5k ($5/lf)

For the price & quality I am thinking these are extremely high. Am I on drugs???
You're not, but it sounds like the second guy is snorting paint fumes: $2.5K was about what I paid to have the whole inside of my house painted, doors and trim included.

[Mike Vermeil]

Those quotes seem high, but keep in mind that trim carpenters, well carpenters of all types, are in high demand right now. If you get another quote in that range, then most likely that's the going rate. And if you do find someone significantly less, be sure and see some of their work before you sign on, because there's usually some reason for the lower price.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

California huh? Wouldn't surprise me to know that was the going rate as everything is way to expensive for you guys. Here that would be a laughing stock of a bid. I'd be hard pressed to go past $1k on that one and that's with me buying the MDF!!!

[Jeff Sudmeier]

For a great trim carpenter I can see it being worth it, but not for work you described.

[Lynn Sonier]

If you think carpenters are in demand in California, try getting one in Louisiana, Texas, or Mississippi where 2 hurricanes have pummeled our shores! In New Orleans, about 8000 homes will have to be completely destroyed. Any idea of what that will do to the cost of materials???

[Kelly C. Hanna]

If you think carpenters are in demand in California, try getting one in Louisiana, Texas, or Mississippi where 2 hurricanes have pummeled our shores! In New Orleans, about 8000 homes will have to be completely destroyed. Any idea of what that will do to the cost of materials???

This hasn't had any effect....YET (except for prices going up on materials around 20% already). All the demo people are going to head that way first, then the concrete crews and framers will go next. These are mostly folks who will charge many times the normal price for their work. You don't want to know what I call them. As usual, trim carpenters will go last. For me it might mean more work since we're not going anwhere. The good news is that all the questionable contractors will be gone from our area for awhile.

[Scott Loven]

Whats your hurry, I have been working on the trim for my house for 8 years!

[Jeffrey Makiel]

John,
Using the Davis Bacon Act can help provide a sanity check. The Davis Bacon Act (DBA) provides a minimum wage determination for contractors peforming federally funded construction work. The wage tables are determined upon trade and geographic location, and are based upon a "prevailing" wage, not a union wage.

For San Diego county, the DBA wage determination for trim carpenters in a residential/light commercial setting is $24.75/hr plus $8.47/hr benefits = $33.22/hr. Based upon your estimate of $3,000, this means about 90 hours of work, or two carpenters for 1 week. Does this amount of work sound about right?

I also have some personal exposure with residential contracting work. I'm seeing more and more rejections to estimates by homeowners. I don't believe that the estimates folks receive are non-competitive because I don't see evidence of other contractors coming in. It's simply too much for what the homeowner expects. I suspect one of the drivers to higher estimates by legitimate contractors is increased medical costs which are going up in leaps and bounds.

As far as poor workshmanship, this is simply unacceptable. I'm glad you were able to see a sample of the contractor's work. Remember the complete old saying: "you get what you pay for...and sometimes not even that".

good luck...Jeff

[Scott Coffelt]

I wouldn't doubt it, I know around here trim carpentry is still considered a skill (and should be). They have farmed out the framing and other more manually intensive jobs to (I don't mean this in abad way) less skilled workers. Add to the fact that we are still experiencing a building boom, trim carpenters (good or bad) can find plenty of work. I wouldn't be surprised to find folks pricing higher for the fact it is an opportunity cost for them. If they can make $10k on a job in the same time they can do yours, course which one do they really want. They'll price the small homeowner jobs more. Also, It's much easier for them to do new builds versus remodels (what is essentially your case). No worries about breaking things. I've done a number of small jobs and I always wish I charged more for these cause there is usually more crapi have to work around and move. One wrong move and I busted a nice vase, etc.

I know whatever you pay will more than what you expect too, cause we know what it takes. On the other hand, we're more picky cuase we know what to expect. Many folks see crappy trim jobs and think it is just how it is suppose to be done, they know nothing different.

May I suggest you finding a handy man to give you a quote, might find a more reasonable price. I personally gasp any time my wife asks if we can have someone come in and do something that I can do myself. If it ain't and emergancy...Nope is my usual answwer.

[Jim Marshall]

Good gravy, that is an unbelievable bid. Back when I was doing trim work, I charged $25.00 a room and the contractors complained about the cost then and it wasn't that long ago. Most of them wanted me to give them the labor to install the base and shoe in all the rooms. I did charge a little more for labor in existing homes because of moving things around but never that much. West Tennessee must be a whole different world from some other parts of the country.

It sounds like they didn't want the job. I may be wrong but that is what it sounds like to me.

[Steve Clardy]

If I ever price trim work for that amount, someone come beat me up.

Thats totally out of sight I think. Course I'm not in CA. either.

[Michael Gabbay]

John - Sieze the opportunity here. Your average bid is $3500 ($3K and $4K). So let's say you spend $1000 or so on materials etc. Go buy a nice tool and tell your wife you still saved $$$. :cool: Besides, trim is way over rated. :D

I would say those prices are way too high. But at the same time, I paid $450 to have a hot water heater install (not including the HW heater itself) this summer. That was 2 pipes to sweat.

Mike

[Dale Rodabaugh]

Not so long ago,you could figure about 50/50 on that type of work.50%,for matls.and 50% for labor.Now it is more like 10% for matls.and 90% for labor.A friend of mine just remodeled his basement.He had 2 or 3 bids to do the job.Figured he saved about 90% by doing it himself.There are still some of these handymen operations around who will do that type of work for a reasonable price.Looks like a lot of the trades people are pricing themself right out of work.:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :cool:

[Richard Wolf]

I'm a contractor, (railing and stairs) and it sounds alittle high to me even coming from the micro economy (or is it macro, I never can remember) of Long Island were a $200 thousand house cost $500 thousand.
The problem as I see it is the real lack of skilled labor in overpopulated areas. There is a tremendous amount to work with a very small influx of skilled tradesmen to do it.
The reason there are no skilled trades are;
1) Shop classes have been eliminated from schools and trade schools (BOCES) are closed.
2) Most trademen are now spanish speaking imigrates that what to learn the "rough trades" like framing, sheet rock, sideing and roofing that they can pick up quikly.
3) Most suburban children are encourged to attend college for a white collar job.

Spiraling cost are also a great part of the equation in pricing. I live in a upper middle class area and my house expenses are the same as the executive that live across the street plus my business expenses are out of site. My shop rent is $1,600 a month, my liability and workmans comp. are out of site, advertising in the yellow pages is ridicules, gas is up ,and forget labor, (because someone working for you has to live in this same econ.).
I am fortunate that I have such a speacialized business that is in great demand, (most buidlers can't afford to build ranches anymore) that if someone doesn't like the price the next person on the list will be more than happy to pay it to get the work done. Saying that, I don't try to push prices over the limit, enough of my competiter do to make my prices look very reasonable to most people.

I think if you have the time to do the work youself, my all means do it. On the other hand if the time you would spend on doing the trim yourself you could use for productive means, making money or getting someting else done, than hire someone. I think you should try another estimate to get a real grip on the state of affairs in your area.

To anyone that has read all of this; thanks for letting me rant alittle.:D:D

Richard

[Don Baer]

The reason there are no skilled trades are;
1) Shop classes have been eliminated from schools and trade schools (BOCES) are closed.
2) Most trademen are now spanish speaking imigrates that what to learn the "rough trades" like framing, sheet rock, sideing and roofing that they can pick up quikly.
3) Most suburban children are encourged to attend college for a white collar job.

To anyone that has read all of this; thanks for letting me rant alittle.:D:D

Richard
Richard,
You hit the nail on the head (pun intended). I have a neighbor who is cabinate maker and he and I had this vary discussion a few days ago. He went to a trade school to learn his trade. They made him learn joinery the Neander way before they would let him use power tools. The school he attended is no longer in business since they couldn't get enough students. I recently looked around to try to find a JR college where I could take some courses and there are none to be found.

[John A. Williams]

Don,

Try Cerritos College. They have an excellent woodworking program. It is a bit of a drice for you, (min. 1 hour) but well worth it.
John

[Lee DeRaud]

Don,

Try Cerritos College. They have an excellent woodworking program. It is a bit of a drice for you, (min. 1 hour) but well worth it.
JohnHow about the one at Fullerton College? It's a lot closer, but I don't have any first-hand knowlege of the quality of their faculty or facility (yet).

[Per Swenson]

Finish Carpentry prices, well all home improvement

prices are through the roof, simply because the money is

there. It is like a crazy E-bay auction for the home owners.

Especially the ones who say, " Can you have it done by Christmas?"

A case in point, I was contated and closed a deal through a insurance

company, (This week). They told me what they would give me. Are you

sitting

down. The number is 5 times what I thought the job was worth.

They just want it done now. Now, think of the poor fellas like your self

with a small job that I would enjoy and rather do, well you see my position.

The real problem occurs when you get used to charging those numbers.

Also in the North East metro area, no one is on the couch watching the

price is right. This of course will change.

I hope I made a little sense and you can see it from my perspective.


Per

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I read it all and wholeheartedly agree with your take on things Richard. The quality of framing, sheetrock, roofing, etc. has tanked in our area and there are very few real skilled craftsmen in the business....just a bunch of guys in very expensive trucks running crews of the cheapest labor they can find.

I lost one job back in '03 to someone like this. They called me a few days ago to come look at the problems they have incurrred with their choice of builders. The deck was falling apart. My bid to fix it was reasonable, but you could tell they still have sticker shock. I tried to explain the difference between those who drastically undercut us (we're at the norm of $12 a sq. ft. for deckbuilding) and those who do quality work. We'll see what they do.

[Frank Pellow]

I don't think that things are any different in the Tornto area. :(

Hearing the prices and seeing the quality of work and material for projects that my friends and neighbours have done makes me very happy that I can do most of this kind of thing myself. :) The worst quailty seems to be in decks, trim carpentry, and building extensions. But, it is also hard to find painters and roofers who will do proper preparation before they slap on the paint and/or shingles.

[Mac McAtee]

A GOOD trim carpenter is more of an artist than a workman. The rate quoted is not out of the ordinary for a GOOD one.

As stated above no corner is a true 90° angle, a good trim carpenter handles that quite easily, just part of the job. A real good one doesn't need spackle to fill cracks. A real good one hides the nail heads and also doesn't need spackle for them. But you pay for that.

Painting the trim prior to installation saves you a ton of money. You could paint 500 lft. of 5 1/2" base board on sawhorses in a half day or less. I wouldn't do it any other way.

Put it on the wall and it is a two day job. The painter has to be careful of where the paint goes, mask the floor and wall or be very good cutting in with a trim brush. All that takes time and time is $.

[Mac McAtee]

BTW the obvious seams that you saw in one location may have been the result of wood that was not completely stable being used for the trim work. Going from a lumber storage building to the inside of the house and then being installed promptly could result in loss of moisture and shrinkage.

[Jim Marshall]

A good number of years ago I did a trim job on a house in the 7000 sq ft range in the colder months of the year. I asked them to have the heat turned on in the house so the trim could stablize before installing it. They did not want to waste the money to heat the house during the trim job. I warned them that all the trim joints would open up several months down the road after the heat was turned on. They didn't have the heat turned on and they were upset with me because the joints opened up. I tried to tell them.

Back to the subject of the thread. Even if good trim people were in short supply, I can't see paying that kind of money to have that amount of base installed. It is a simple and quick operation and it is just wrong to charge that kind of cost for labor.

[Ed Blough]

Perhaps it is the bullnose outside corners. I have done these and they are a bear. On one job I had the bullnose radius required multiple tiny pieces to flow around the corner and the walls were plumb vertical. I saw one job where the corners were out of plumb vertical and my buddy spent hours whittling corners into place.

If I was going to do them again either the homeowner would agree to molded corners (poly molded to fit around the bullnose), transitional corner mold (applied before the dry wall was finished that transforms the bullnose down to straight corners at base) or I would bid high hoping I didn't get the job but if I did would get paid for playing around trying to make the molding flow around the corner. That seems to be the attitude of every trim carpenter I have ran into.

Builders around here have learned this lesson and most are now using the transitional dry wall corners. All the trim supply houses also stock the poly molded corners in nearly every conventional molding profile, but some people reject them as too expensive or not "real" wood.

I think your high bids are the bullnose outside corners.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I live in an area that was developed in the 1950's. My home, and the homes in my middle class neighborhood were custom built and sported masonary work and alot of other architectural details. I, unfortunately, purchase my house 18 years ago next to a small vacant lot adjacent to me. When the widow that owned the property died two years ago, the property was sold to a builder that built a home as cheap as possible with no regard to the surrounding neighborhood architecture.

In addition, I was amazed at the poor quality construction...
- The simple rectangular foundation was out of square. The basement windows were installed out of level. One window cracked from racking.
- They accidentally omitted the shelf in the foundation to accept brick veneer, so the front fascade around the garage was not bricked.
- When they framed the roof rafters, the angled end that rests against the ridge board was cut at the wrong angle. Only the very top edge of the rafters touch the ridge board. No hangers were used.
- The wind shear panels in the corner of the building were not done.
- The wall studs did not touch the sill plate. The nails held them about 1/4" to 1/2" hovering above the plate.
- The pine flooring on the first floor was installed with tremendous gaps. The new homeowner actually ripped them back out.
- The gas fireplace looks like it was installed by an appliance delivery company. It was just plopped down with some clam case molding around it.
- The rain gutter/leaders were not piped to the street. The basement flooded during the first heavy rain.
- All the lighting fixtures were the cheapest stuff you can find at Home Depot. One exterior electrical outlet got rain in it and caught fire.
- The new homeowners could not get a nice quality lawn. Upon inspection by a landscape company, the fill that was used was clay and no top soils were present.
- The hvac system was "builders grade". They had problems with it already, but it was also undersized, which can't be easily fixed.

The work was predominantly done by immigrant labor. Obviously, not a very skilled labor pool. They worked hard, with long days, and slammed everything together with amazing speed. The entire house was vinyl sided, complete with soffits and fascia, in one day. But this poor quality craftsmanship was compounded by a frugal builder who had no stake in the neighborhood.

The property costed $100K which was a pretty good deal in northern NJ. The house probably costed $120K to construct (about 2,400 sqft). It sold for a whopping $460K! It seems folks have more dollars than 'sense' these days. And the dumbing down of the workforce, with emphasis on paper-related careers, has made people unable to recognize craftsmanship and quality. Instead, they measure quality by how much they paid for it.

-Jeff

[Joe Pelonio]

Were these "handyman" types specializing in finish carpentry or did you
get the quotes from building contractors? I'm from CA (bay area) and while
it's getting that way here now too, we always found that contractors consider this kind of small job to be so much less important to their income that they will bid real high, so that if they get it they make a big profit, and they don't really care if they lose it to a lower bidder. Had a friend trying to build a small house that was told by several contractors that they would not consider bidding the job because it was too small. Look for an individual self employed carpenter with a company name like "Bud's Home Service" and you could find a big difference in price. Still, always check references and see the work.:rolleyes:

[Mike Vermeil]

Since this thread has morphed into more of a discussion of the state of skilled trades in America, I'll chime in.

I'm a one-man-show remodeling contractor in AZ. In the last 6 months I've hung over 1000 feet of MDF and hardwood crown molding, 98% unassisted. Here in AZ all the new houses have bull-nose drywall corners, necessitating an extra pie-shapped piece of molding in every outside corner, which there are also a lot of in our newer floor plans out here. My joints are as close to perfect as possible when installing molding on an imperfect workpiece. I fret over every one of them because, well, I'm anal (or so says my wife - I prefer perfectionist).

I charge at least double what the homeowners can have the same molding installed for by unlicensed contractors, and even at that price, I cannot make enough money. Consequently, my prices are going up, and I'm going to continue raising them until the demand for my services slows down. I realize that at the prices I must charge, many middle-income folks won't be able to afford my work, and will have to settle for 1/4" gaps full of caulk from unskilled skilled carpenters. I feel bad about this, one because I'm middle income, and two becuase I just like to help people. But helping people with lower prices doesn't help me put food on the table. It's a frustrating position to be in, and it's more frustrating when I hear people talk about how it's not worth it to pay so much for "that type of work," meaning manual labor.

My reply, cut back on those $4 cups of coffee at Starbucks for a couple months and maybe you can afford some decent quality work that you won't have to complain about for the next five years.

Sorry to rant, well not really, but you understand.

[Tim Sproul]

Someone else already mentioned it.....but I think the likely culprit is the size of the job.

For a skilled craftsman to take on a job, it has to pay out a minimum amount, no matter how small a job it is. Think about a plumber....if all they did was go around and unclog a kitchen sink at every house that called AND they charged only for the unclogging - no transport time or such - they'd never make it past a week before bankrupting. Same goes for trim carpenters. I bet the quote would only be a little bit higher for 1500 lf.....it certainly won't be 3x the quote for 500 lf.

[Paul B. Cresti]

I have been pretty quiet with this thread but feel it has now gotten close to home. First off people want top quality work at rock bottom prices..... you USUALLY get what you pay for. When I started doing my stuff full time, part of it was designing, milling and installing Architectural Millwork. I bought some stuff like the crowns but made the rest. When I gave people my prices they were kind of taken back by them. They loved what i showed them but did not want to part with the money. Just sit down and think what prices invlove: insurance, health coverage, workers comp, material, labor, travel, shop time, install time and of course some overhead and profit would be nice. I designed everything in order to fit the house I was working in, no two places were the same based upon what the client wanted. No matter how big or small the project I always had the same "basic" costs. I still need to feed and support my family and I no matter what the job is. Now on top of this people do not want to see "gaps", want it painted ....... so now I am basicaly doing woodworking on a large scale and also painting! Most peoples reaction is, "oh just put up some crown here and here ...." It is not that easy and for you guys that have done it you know what I mean. If you want it done cheap and quickly then deal with the "junk" you get. If you want something done right, looks like it is suppose to then expect to pay for it. I am both a blue color and white color worker and am proud of it. I switch back and forth all the time. Neither one is "easy" when done correctly. So for anyone out there that thinks this stuff is easy go try to make a living at it. I hope you like to eat rice!

[Steve Rowe]

My initial reaction to the prices was they were too high but, now that I have thought about it more, I am not so sure. I do not have any idea of the cost of living or labor in San Diego but my guess is that it is significantly higher than where I am. From your post, it is clear that you are capable of doing it yourself but don't have time since you have another job. Perhaps as a gage as to whether it is reasonable (or not) is for you to estimate how much time it would take for you to do it yourself and multiply this by the hourly rate you make. This would give an indicator of what it really costs if you do it yourself. Remember that the contractor will have additional expenses such as insurance, taxes, tools and other overheads to account for in his bid. Compare this to the amount of the bids and make the determination from that.

I think nearly everyone on this forum certainly has capabilities to do this type of job ourselves to varying degrees. With this ability, we have a tendency to think that it costs us nothing because we don't have to write a check for labor. With this in mind, we have a tendency to think that bids from any job we can do ourselves is too high be it carpentry, car repairs, or whatever.
Steve

[Lee DeRaud]

My initial reaction to the prices was they were too high but, now that I have thought about it more, I am not so sure. I do not have any idea of the cost of living or labor in San Diego but my guess is that it is significantly higher than where I am. From your post, it is clear that you are capable of doing it yourself but don't have time since you have another job. Perhaps as a gage as to whether it is reasonable (or not) is for you to estimate how much time it would take for you to do it yourself and multiply this by the hourly rate you make.Interesting point: for those of you who do this kind of thing for a living, how long does it take to apply 500' of baseboard? Is that earlier estimate of 90 man-hours reasonable?

[Richard Wolf]

Lee, the estimate of 90 hours was based on Jeffery's calulations using the DBA which in ecomomies like Cal. and NY no longer work. 500' of base in 90 hours comes out to about 5.5' per hour, most of our wifes could do that, no offensive.
To add to my earlier comments, I don't really consider myself a finish carpenter or tradesman, but a business man that designs, builds, consults, supply materials and installs stairs and rails. It is not unusual for people or builders to spend $2000 or more a day for my time, materials and labor. I think there are some other people on this forum that feel the same about the way they run their business. It is very difficult to come up with the hourly rate that many trim carpenters used to charge.
I find that the easiest part of my business is the installations, it's all the other stuff that gets in the way.

Richard

[Lee DeRaud]

Lee, the estimate of 90 hours was based on Jeffery's calulations using the DBA which in ecomomies like Cal. and NY no longer work. 500' of base in 90 hours comes out to about 5.5' per hour, most of our wifes could do that, no offensive.Kinda what I thought: it certainly sounded way high to me, but I'm not exactly an expert at that kind of stuff.:p How are jobs like this bid, by the foot, by the room, by the corner...proctonumerology maybe?

[Dale Thompson]

John,
I've done that much for friends and relatives for five cups of coffee, three martinis and seven jelly-filled donuts. The one good thing about working for those wages is that I don't have to open a complaint department. :) Guess what-- No complaints. :D

The problem is that my welfare requests have been turned down for the past twenty years and I'm starving to death. ;) Whatever, you have to consider my location and an IQ that I can count on my one big toenail identifiable by the fungus infection! :eek:

Wealth is ALWAYS relative! :cool: C'mon, John, do it yourself!! :)

Dale T.

[Andy Hoyt]

John - If you had begun painting and installing the trim right after you launched this thread you would be done by now.

[Alan Turner]

I know that there are standard cost calculators for estimating construction costs. So much for drywall, per sq. foot, etc. What is the standard time charge per lineal foot for installing baseboard? Is there such a number? If so, I would be interested in learning it.

500 ft. of base would do about 8 rooms of reasonable size, I would suspect. Accurately cutting, butt joining a few, mitering, etc., would take a bit. Lot of walking. If these mdf parts were each 8' long, that is 61 pieces of base to prime and paint. Lot of full saw horses. I don't think I have that many.

When I do a bit of math on this job, it seems a bit larger than I thought at first. If you figure $500/day for a mechanic and laborer combined, this job might take 4 -5 days. I think the painting adds at least a full day, doesn't it, even if painted on the bench.

Of course, I would do it myself, so these calculations would be out the window. As a starting point, my bride is an excellent painter, so that is free. Etc.

[Walt Pater]

This could highjack the thread, but isn't Workmans' Compensation insurance insanely high in California? I've heard that it is as high as 80 cents on the dollar. This could be adding to the cost, assuming your carps are fully-insured types.
BTW, I usually bid base at $2/lf, but that is part of a trim package which includes doors, windows, crown, etc, and is a bit of a "gimme" since I'm already in the property.

[Jeff Murphy]

Uhmm, that is absurd to pay that much. You are a woodworker, so why do you not put up maybe 1 piece after work every night? Nobody in my area would pay that and you would be looked at for fraud :eek: . Just think of the nice tools that you could buy with $4K! Do it yourself! Get a woodworking friend to help you on a weekend........treat him right and he will help. Baseboard is not that hard, and the mdf will be painted, so you can hide your mistakes that you will make early on. Bet you will get it down pretty good when you get to the end.:cool:

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Okay..I worked up a bid for you as if the work were to be done in Dallas. To install the trim alone (no caulking, or painting), the labor only bid would be $950. That's two days for myself and a helper.

Add in caulking, priming and painting and the bid would go to $1800 (still labor only, 4-5 days total).

Course we don't live in Cali and both my guys are contract labor (no benefits involved).

[Steve Schoene]

I pulled out a Means Residential Repair and Remodeling Costs book (2005) for installation, cleaning, and painting base molding--no materials. For premium grade--stain grade molding) it works out to between $2,002 and $2,349 depending on which California location factor adjustment is applied. For standard grade, it is between $1,529 and $1,793. The book is silent about the cove corners and I presume would be based on standard square corners. These calculations are supposted to include profit and overhead for the contractor, (but not for a general contractor if one were involved.) I don't have any idea how realistic the figures are--the book figures were in line, albeit slightly low, for a re-roofing job I had done recently, but the high, non-selected, bidder was double the book price.

[Scott Parks]

Just recently on my remodel I just sold, I had to do 300 ft of trim and 5 doors in my basement. Between my dad and I, we stained, and sprayed laquer in a half day. I installed it all by myself and hung the doors with no help in about 3/4 day. Of course this wasn't painted, or caulked. But 500 ft of base molding shouldn't take more than 2 days of labor IMO.

My neighbor is a General contractor that specializes in restaurants, stairs, doors, and cabinets. I'm trying to hook up with him for some finish work (restaurant benches, bars, light boxes, etc). He quotes for the labor of the job. By my estimates, on some of the plans he's showed me and how much $ he gets, I'm guessing he bids $300-$500 per day for labor. He said I can make $200 for a half day of helping him on the jobsite.... (based on the quote for the job).

What am I trying to say here? I don't know. But, quality costs, and from what I've seen $300-$500 / day for labor is not out of the norm.

[Don Baer]

OK I'm not a trim carpenter nor did I stay at a Holiday in last night but. I trimed out a bathroom and dressing room including paint and caulc about 30 lin feet in 3 hours. I used my CMS and a Air powered brad nailer. The rooms had lots of real funky corners and such so they weren't the easiest rooms to do. That tanslates to 10 ft/hour. 500 Ft would mean 50 hour and say the charge for labor is $35/hr. Add in 38% for benefits then the cost would be $2415.00.

[Jeff Murphy]

Kelly, you would charge around $900 just to fill/prime/paint baseboard? 4-5 days?:eek: I take it you are not a painter. 2 guys should do that easily in 2 days.........that is for install/fill/prime and paint.:)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Kelly, you would charge around $900 just to fill/prime/paint baseboard? 4-5 days?:eek: I take it you are not a painter. 2 guys should do that easily in 2 days.........that is for install/fill/prime and paint.:)

Yes to the $$$ amount (I am a paint hater, but I am also a perfectionist when I have to paint). The days I wrote down were for the whole job to be completed. Painting would add 2-3 days for that much base to be done in three coats. Heck...caulking would be a major part of the first day with just two people. Remember he said 500'!

And no...I am no painter. I do this under duress when I know I will get the job if I offer it. I hate to paint cause it takes so long by brush! That being said it's the only way I like to paint wood. Spraying or rolling isn't an option.

I have been helping LOML paint the panelling in our 'new' house. Each room is a new color now (earth tones) and the white walls are slowly disappearing and I am very happy about it. But I am still hating the actual painting...:eek:

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Maybe the guys who bid really didn't want to do the work. I have several friends in business and they won't ever turn down an opportunity to bid, but if they look at the setup and don't really want to do the work they bid high. Real high. Sometimes they still get the bid anyway.

[Phil Phelps]

When I took on this re-do of my 1950 house, one of the must do's was the crown moulding. So a buddy that owed me a favor came over and we ran 380 feet of 5" crown in one day. It was primed MDF. If it wern't, I would have sprayed a primer, as I do all painted trim before installation. I came back later and filled nail holes and caulked top and bottom. That took me, alone, about five hours. I can't remember how long it took for two coats of alkyd, but I believe two days, less a couple of hours. That's cutting in top and bottom, too. Given what prices I see in this thread, I've taken six Valium to control the excitement I have for the gush of cash I saved myself :D .

[Randy Meijer]

OK I'm not a trim carpenter nor did I stay at a Holiday in last night but. I trimed out a bathroom and dressing room including paint and caulc about 30 lin feet in 3 hours.....

I'm guessing that that your rooms have more corners per mile than would be the average for the whole house, hence I believe your figure of 10' per hour is unrealistically low??

[John Cavanaugh]

Its pretty amazing, this thread took on a life of its own. I have to say I am really impressed by the dialog here (from two perspective). The first was the honest & open comments from folks that do woodworking for a living, as it was good grounding information. Second some of the wisecracks were just hysterical (I was sitting here on my laptop re-reading all the comments and cracking up, my wife looked over at me wondering what the heck is wrong with me... :D)

While I was willing to pay what I thought was a fair price for quality work (~2k). What I have found is that, for the folks that I could afford or were closer to what I could afford (2.8k) their quality was poor. Frankly if I had done the work I had seen from some of these guys I would be quite ashamed. And I personally would have been pretty pissed looking at the baseboards after the fact and thinking I paid how much for this...

For the guys that did seem to be on the ball (business wise & quality wise) the prices were well outside my budget. If I had added in the crown moulding I was thinking about and included the matrials it was like 7k total. Which basically meant the quality I desired I couldnt afford.

So Ill be taking the slow & steady approach and doing it myself. For now, Im going to focus on finishing up installing the main floor in the house, Ill do the basement & upstairs later.

After I finish the installing then its on to the caulking & spackling & sanding etc. Then the ugly painting begins. Taping everything up and shooting a coat of paint on them while installed.

Im gonna have to practice a bit more with my wagner gun. I was getting too much overspray when I put two coats on the boards before I installed them. The Mrs will kill me if I get overspray on walls, floor or furniture.

--
John Cavanaugh

[John Cavanaugh]

Okay..I worked up a bid for you as if the work were to be done in Dallas. To install the trim alone (no caulking, or painting), the labor only bid would be $950. That's two days for myself and a helper.

Add in caulking, priming and painting and the bid would go to $1800 (still labor only, 4-5 days total).

Course we don't live in Cali and both my guys are contract labor (no benefits involved).

Kelly, that number was about what I thought it might cost. And I would have definitely paid that for someone that did good quality work, but alas I wasnt able to find it.


One of the things I thought about thru this whole thing is the concept of local labor vs national labor. My guess is that there are some folks who are quite good carpenters & painters that live in areas of the US that "undervalue" their skills in terms of pay.

I think if I were going to be doing a bunch of trimwork in my house (my job isnt really big enough), it would probably be better for me to find one of these guys from perhaps W Virginia or something, fly them out here, put them to work for one week using all my tools & equipment and then fly them back. Believe it or not, I think it would be cheaper for me, and they would get paid probably quite a bit more than they would get paid locally. Sort of outsourced or regionalized labor leverage.

--
John C

[Jeff Murphy]

Guess I am not used to Cali/Texas prices:eek: . Up here, I am lucky to get $2K(labor) for painting an entire 1800 sq. ft. house(inside). Spraying the baseboard after it is down? It will take you longer to mask everything off than it would to brush it on. I have been painting for nearly 25 yrs., so I guess I can do it fairly quick. Atleast prime and paint everything 1 coat before installing. Really isn't that much to fill/sand nail holes. Get the wife of kids to help.;) Glad you are doing it yourself., instead of lining some yahoo's pocket. Remember, a good carpenter can hide his mistakes:D .

[Curt Harms]

....
I think if I were going to be doing a bunch of trimwork in my house (my job isnt really big enough), it would probably be better for me to find one of these guys from perhaps W Virginia or something, fly them out here, put them to work for one week using all my tools & equipment and then fly them back. Believe it or not, I think it would be cheaper for me, and they would get paid probably quite a bit more than they would get paid locally. Sort of outsourced or regionalized labor leverage.

--
John C[/QUOTE]

You're in San Diego? Wait til Jan. or Feb. You might find somebody from MN, MI. or those environs cheaper than you think :D

[Frank Pellow]

....
I think if I were going to be doing a bunch of trimwork in my house (my job isnt really big enough), it would probably be better for me to find one of these guys from perhaps W Virginia or something, fly them out here, put them to work for one week using all my tools & equipment and then fly them back. Believe it or not, I think it would be cheaper for me, and they would get paid probably quite a bit more than they would get paid locally. Sort of outsourced or regionalized labor leverage.



....
You're in San Diego? Wait til Jan. or Feb. You might find somebody from MN, MI. or those environs cheaper than you think :D

Or maybe even someone (such as me) from Canada. :D :D

[Don Baer]

I'm guessing that that your rooms have more corners per mile than would be the average for the whole house, hence I believe your figure of 10' per hour is unrealistically low??

Randy you are correct. Also keep in mind that I don't do trim work for a living either so some of the processes that I did would be done even quicker by soeone who does this day in and day out. The point I was trying to make is if I can do it in that time frame then a trim carpenter sould be able to do it even quicker.

[John Cavanaugh]

Guess I am not used to Cali/Texas prices:eek: . Up here, I am lucky to get $2K(labor) for painting an entire 1800 sq. ft. house(inside). Spraying the baseboard after it is down? It will take you longer to mask everything off than it would to brush it on. I have been painting for nearly 25 yrs., so I guess I can do it fairly quick. Atleast prime and paint everything 1 coat before installing. Really isn't that much to fill/sand nail holes. Get the wife of kids to help.;) Glad you are doing it yourself., instead of lining some yahoo's pocket. Remember, a good carpenter can hide his mistakes:D .

Jeff,

Maybe I need some coaching here. Ive done a fair amount of interior painting, though it was all walls & ceilings. Did the priming & painting etc, and it was all ok.

Ive never painted trim. When I orginally was going to do this job I did some experiments where I painted the trim with a brush. Problem I had was a lot of brush marks etc on the baseboard test pieces (which I painted) vs zero brush marks on the door trim etc (which someone else painted before I bought the house).

Thats why I bought the wagner gun etc. I tried to do research on how to get a good spray paint application with an HVLP gun (I found floetrol etc), but Ill admit it wasnt perfect either, but it was waaay better than my original attempt with a brush.


Maybe Im doing something wrong with brushing. Should I thin the paint (latex) a bit or use floetrol or something.

Hey if it can look as good as the other stuff and its done via brushing without all the drudgery of masking & taping etc I would definitely be interested in doing that for the final coat.

--
John C

[Jeff Murphy]

What paint are you using? Buy a good angled brush like a Purdy or Baker. Of course only use a nylon for latex and china bristle for oil. I would bet that you are using latex.:rolleyes: Good paint ie: P&L or B.Moore and a $15 brush can make a world of difference. Oh, do not ever paint in the sun;) .

[Phil Phelps]

Guess I am not used to Cali/Texas prices:eek: . Up here, I am lucky to get $2K(labor) for painting an entire 1800 sq. ft. house(inside). Spraying the baseboard after it is down? It will take you longer to mask everything off than it would to brush it on. I have been painting for nearly 25 yrs., so I guess I can do it fairly quick. Atleast prime and paint everything 1 coat before installing. Really isn't that much to fill/sand nail holes. Get the wife of kids to help.;) Glad you are doing it yourself., instead of lining some yahoo's pocket. Remember, a good carpenter can hide his mistakes:D .
Jeff is so right. Mask off the baseboard at the floor and cut in the top and get after it. It's so much eaiser than trying to spray. You'll develop a knack in about fifty feet. Use the proper brush, though.

[Phil Phelps]

Jeff,

Maybe I need some coaching here. Ive done a fair amount of interior painting, though it was all walls & ceilings. Did the priming & painting etc, and it was all ok.

Ive never painted trim. When I orginally was going to do this job I did some experiments where I painted the trim with a brush. Problem I had was a lot of brush marks etc on the baseboard test pieces (which I painted) vs zero brush marks on the door trim etc (which someone else painted before I bought the house).

Thats why I bought the wagner gun etc. I tried to do research on how to get a good spray paint application with an HVLP gun (I found floetrol etc), but Ill admit it wasnt perfect either, but it was waaay better than my original attempt with a brush.


Maybe Im doing something wrong with brushing. Should I thin the paint (latex) a bit or use floetrol or something.

Hey if it can look as good as the other stuff and its done via brushing without all the drudgery of masking & taping etc I would definitely be interested in doing that for the final coat.
John C

Glaring brush strokes is just one reason I don't use latex enamel. Floetrol will help a great deal, but don't thin your paint with water. All paint is NOT equal. Top of the line paint at the Borg just isn't nearly as good as top brands at the real paint store.( they do carry some nationl brand stains and such) I am a great fan of Benjamin Moore latex paints. Mercy, here I go again. If you use a top quality oil base enamel. you'll have far less trouble with brush strokes and, when it cures, it will be a harder finish. But, I wouldn't mix the two products on the same job, ie. latex for door cases and oil for base boards. Choose one. And treat yourself to the knowledge of a real paint store for your q and a. I think you'll enjoy the experience.
--

[Frank Pellow]

I always paint trim with a top of the line OIL based paint and apply it with a top of the line angled paint brush.

[John Cavanaugh]

Ill try another experiment with a brush & some paint mixed with floetrol. For the record, the paint Im using is Dunn-Edwards Latex Semi-Gloss Enamel.

Ive thought about using oil since it has much better levelling characteristcs than Latex, but the cleanup etc is a pain, plus everything else is Latex in the house so I guess its also a consistency thing...

--
John Cavanaugh