Northfield vs. Martin

[John Sincerbeaux]

I'm currently in the market for a 16" jointer. Right now I am leaning towards a SCM f410.
But, I am a research adict and before I make a purchase of just about anything, I like to know as much as possible. In this case I am very aware of the used market from IRS auctions to eBay and craigslist for buying used machinery. I call this the starting point. And then I look at the high end as if price were not a factor. So, I think most would agree that a Martin t54 sets the bar in the world of jointers. However, in my search, I am surprised that a NEW Northfield 16Hd with a Terminus cutter head is not far off the price of a new Martin.
So I thought it would be interesting what guys here think about a comparison of the two jointers.
I kind of think of it as American old-school brawn vs. German hi-tech. Both are beautiful machines that I know perform at the top of their class. What makes me wonder, is how can Northfield command the price that is very near that of a Martin and still stay in business? I think of a NF as a machine stuck in a 50 year old design. Granted, it is an amazing design and all that American cast iron is very desirable but it is still as manual as they come in a world that is electronic.
Just curious what you guys think?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Last year we had a bump out built on our kitchen and a total remodel including new custom cabinets. While I could built those cabinets, I am too slow to get it done in a reasonable time. The cabinet maker had one of the newer electronic machines. He complained as the electronics failed too often and in remote Idaho/Washington, he had to pay to fly someone in from either Seattle or San Francisco to get service. He wished he'd bought the old technology. Mechanical can be more reliable.

[peter gagliardi]

Northfield is using a time proven design from before the turn of the last century. A design perfected and patented by Frank Clement. A jointer is a very simple machine. Two perfectly flat coplanar opposing surfaces with a cutterhead flush generally with the outfeed , in between them. Cutter geometry being the same, bearings , balancing, and machining being the same, they will both perform the same.
The wood doesn't know what machine it is on.
So, the real difference is fence and gadgetry related.
If someone just gave me a Martin, i would certainly take it, however, my 100 or so year old American branded jointer with a newer Terminus 4 knife head puts out an exceptional finish when sharp.
There may be some variation in machine tolerances between the Northfield and the Martin, but I would doubt very highly it translates into better work, or any appreciable time savings while using.
I would worry a bit about the lifespan and usefulness of a machine with electronic anything on it, especially if a company decides to no longer support those parts later on.
For that reason alone, I would be looking to spend my money on something more useful, faster, more accurate and with a more concrete return on my investment.
The Martin may however be a bit smoother or quieter while using, and have better dust collection.
Jointers and planers do a lot of rough work, they need to be durable and accurate, not too fancy in my opinion.

[Mel Fulks]

I see no value in some of the new features ,especially the motorized table adjustments. They are slower than the old high end machines with the large adj. wheels which can be spun down and ,to some extent up. The old machines will take off much more wood per pass. The tables were made of Mechanite which is now ,I'm told, only used for metal working machines. But there are clearly two camps with few deserters. I just don't equate newer with better.So I can only suggest looking at some of the old really good machines as I have doubts that I would be happy with either of the offered choices.

[Erik Loza]

If I had the money, I'd buy the Martin!

Actually, if I had the money, I'd probably buy the F410 Nova, then take the rest of the money and go to Fiji with my wife for a month. Like Peter said, it's a jointer. At this level, there aren't any lemons. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Jointers are all about flat tables, large diameter cutting heads if straight blade, vibration free running at speed, and the ability to keep their settings no matter how heavy the timbers you throw on it. Martin is now the pick of the manufacturing litter available here in the US as Hoffmann, equally as good or better does not import. As Peter said so well, the three toed Northfield design was the ultimate manual design. That design doesn't lend itself to electronic adjustment, particularly with electronic spring joint capability. The old T54 with the cast iron base and manual adjustment may have been an even better build than the current machine, as was Bauerle, Kolle, Panhans, and hoffmann- maybe even others. The old American jointers with the exception of Oliver, tended towards the three toed design. While Northfield was among the top tier, Porter, Newman, Yates and a few others it could be argued were considered to be slightly more desirable. The Northfield cored tables were very well done but their spring joint mechanism not so much ( Porter was better ) and their head was slightly smaller in diameter to most others. The 16" Northfield was and is a sweet machine and the only one left of the great old US jointers. I'd not care to choose between the NF or Martin from an operation standpoint as they both make a board flat equally well. The Northfield on the used market commands a slight premium to the now defunct machines . The problem with buying new is you will take an immediate 10K hit on resale. The market for used Northfields is about 5K after a few years but will remain so as long as the tables are not abused. The Martin will stay higher until the electronics fail or just get old enough to and then the value will plummet. An old martin T54 cast iron manual in equal condition will cost slightly more than a Northfield but that is due to rarity, not function.

The larger Northfields are not as robust in build as other old comparable jointers. They don't make a 20" and I'd much prefer the porter at 24-36". Most Martins will be 20". Personally I would never buy a new jointer in a non commercial setting with so many good choices in the 3-5K range with precision bearings, aged tables that if flat today will remain so forever, and a cast iron base that absorbs vibration, unless I wanted a TERSA. The TERSA SCMI makes for an easy blade swap and I see a helical as a negative on a wide jointer. Martin does make a TERSA, I don't know if NF does but I'd still take a straight blade to an insert on a wide machine, particularly if it had a grinder I could lift.

This a long way to not answer your question but I tend to think many don't understand jointer builds and their nuances. Mainly I could talk jointers and sliders all day long. Dave

[John Sincerbeaux]

Thanks everyone for the great info. Exactly what I wanted.
Eric, you're definitely the guy I'll use if I go with SCM.

There is is definitely a "romance" factor in certain beautifully restored machines. For me, the jointer is one such machine.

[Matt Day]

There is is definitely a "romance" factor in certain beautifully restored machines. For me, the jointer is one such machine.

I agree. I'm restoring a 60 year old 12" Northfield (light/medium duty) and am really looking forward to having an old machine with history that I brought back to life. I'll surely get a lot of satisfaction just turning it on each time.

[Martin Wasner]

If you buy a used Northfield, call them with the serial number. They can give you the rundown of who bought it, possibly who has owned it if they have that information, and what parts have gone into it.

If you buy a new one and pick it up, I'll buy you lunch. My cousin works at there, and I live three blocks from there.

Personally, I'd go Northfield but I'm biased for obvious reasons.

[Rick Fisher]

I would go Euro over old for sure ..

If you want the very finest, Martin or Hofmann.. Otherwise go SCM, Felder or Griggio ..

[David Kumm]

As always, the money spent should be relative to your overall financial goals. Every 50K of retirement income needs approx 1M of retirement assets at age 65. If your financial plans are figured out, buy whatever makes you happy. More than ever, we all need to balance our needs and wants. Dave

[Robin Frierson]

I wasnt able to see the prices on the websites for these jointers. What do jointers like the ones discussed here run? And David, why do you see a Helical head as a negative on a wide jointer.

[David Kumm]

In the 20K range new. A jointer isn't a finish surface tool and hand feeding is hard enough with wide boards and even harder with a helical. Unless powerfed, the surface of the helical will still need additional prep so the extra expense isn't justified IMO. Also, my jointer may get wood with some crap on the surface and I'd rather nick regular knives than inserts. On a small jointer the helical is fine as they are pretty cheap at the 8" size. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

The ability of the old machines to remove a whole inch of wood has practical application. It makes a good substitute for a straight line saw in dealing with crooked edges. A straight line saw takes up a lot more room and is expensive. With a deep cut it is good to take care to to start cut a little slower ,but after that the machine doesn't care how much wood it's chewing.

[Erik Loza]

The ability of the old machines to remove a whole inch of wood has practical application...

Mel, you're right about that but I will add that the tradeoff is sound level: Old jointers sounded like jet engines because of the knife projection. Yes, Tersa (and I assume Terminus) as well as spirals can't take off as much stock in a single pass but they are also a lot more pleasant to work around, especially in a small shop. At least in my experience.

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

The square head ones make more noise, but everything I've used that was old was from about 1930 to to probably no later than 1950, had the round gibbed head with standard (but now rapidly being replaced) straight knives. Most had direct drive. Sometimes I wonder just how many videos are on line with jointers running with coins on edge! When I first started working, the company actually still had one "line drive" but It wasn't long before they took it out. I mention that because I'm guessing they made a point of prioritizing removing square heads.

[Jeff Duncan]

Fun thread! So one more opinion for the mix, I have a preference towards older European machines for many reasons mentioned. They were well engineered and built like tanks. Very little electronics if you go old enough, so it's the best of both worlds in my opinion. My jointer and planer are both Italian and likely close to 40 years old. My shapers are German and Italian and older than that! They're not perfect machines but they'll run all day long in a commercial setting no problem. Nothing against the old American iron either, for jointers and planers it's probably a toss up. For shapers and saws....no contest IMHO, the European machinery is just more flexible and a pleasure to use.

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

Jeff, I'll agree if you include Great Britain with Euro. Not sure if that is politically correct any more but their machines were very good. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Nothing against the old American iron either, for jointers and planers it's probably a toss up. For shapers and saws....no contest IMHO, the European machinery is just more flexible and a pleasure to use.


If you're planning on running a Northfield shaper, it better be a set and forget setup. They are unpleasant to have to change gears and do something else on. Which there are plenty of things where that is just fine.

I'm going to be in the market for a different planer in a few years. I don't have a Northfield on my list for what I do. If I was taking skip planed lumber and just facing it, they're awesome. They can also hog when needed. Right now an SCM is at the top of my list, but I haven't gotten a price yet, so it make get knocked off pretty quickly for a lower model.

Tablesaw, I'd go American. Tannewitz, Northfield, Oliver. Of which Northfield is the only one still around. I don't care for how far into the field the blades are on any of them though for manual use. For a slider, I wouldn't buy one except for very specific uses, but that's just me. The only regular cabinet saw that I know of made in Europe and is still being produced is Robland. I have no clue what kind of quality they are. There may be others that I'm unaware of.

Panel saws, as far as I'm concerned there's only one brand. Striebig.

Is there any European made straight line rip saws?

[James Biddle]

I've had the pleasure of using 3 different SCM jointers over the years and now have access to a Martin combo J/P. I can tell you that although the SCM products are top notch, heavy, durable machines, the Martin is on a different level. Two speed start up, braking, motorized lift, variable speed feed, digital height readout, overall build quality...it's as if the SCM developers were given carte blanche. Now, the combo machine I use is made in Italy to Martin's specs; This is advertised as Martin's intro machine. I've never used a Northfield and hear they are also fantastic, but I worry about them relying on past laurels and not venturing into modern electronics, probably unjustifiably. Heck, without electronics, I wouldn't be able to figure out what to cut anymore. Martin's help network is second to none. The dollars are going to hurt one time with either machine...and if I didn't have access to the Martin, SCM would be on my short list.

[Joe Calhoon]

No experience With Northfield but I hear they are solid units. 2 local shops have new Northfield planers. One has both a Martin planer and a Northfield They use the Martin as a fine finishing planer and the Northfield to run reclaimed wood for millwork. He is happy with both machines. The other shop is a cabinet door mfg. and upgraded from a carpet feed SCM planer to the Northfield. He is happy with the Northfield last I talked to him.

I have used a Martin jointer the last 15 years and will offer a comparison based on the Northfield specs. We upgraded from a SCM 16" combo J/P. I think if you are only doing rough work like facing or just straightening the edge for ripping there are a lot of choices. We use ours for a lot of finish edges and bevels. We bevel all our passage door edges and they only require a light sanding with the orbital sander to clean. Tilting the fence to 45 is a quick and easy way to chamfer or put and eased edge on.We have a SLR but prefer the jointer for accurate glue ups.

Martin is about 20” wide, Northfield has a 24”

Martin offers a Tersa head they make and balance in-house, a spiral head they make in- house and a straight head if desired. I think Northfield offers a Byrd head and their standard head.
Martin cutting circle is about 5”, Northfield is 4 ½” cutting circle.

Martin 5000 RPM, Northfied 4500 and 3600 with direct drive

Martin 2160 lbs. with compound steel and concrete frame with heavy cast tables, Northfield 2200lbs with cast frame and tables

Martin 7.5 HP, Northfield 5, 7.5 and 10HP

Martin depth of cut 8mm max, Northfield says ¾” rabbet depth. I do not know if that would be the max depth of cut also. I don’t think any Euro jointers have rabbeting ledges.

Martin has motorized table adjustment and adjustment for concave – convex joints. Northfield has a ships wheel for adjustment that I bet works well.

Martin has 78” infeed table and 47” outfeed. Northfield is 8’ overall.

I assume a Suvamatic guard like Martin offers could be fitted on the Northfield.

I have been very happy with my machine. No issues with table alignment and fence squareness like I had with past jointers. I think the best features of the Martin is the fence that rides on ball bearings with easy one hand operation for moving locking and tilting. The long infeed is nice as is quite running and good dust collection.

For heavy duty rough work I could see some advantages to the Northfield.

The Martin jointer is better compared to the SCM L’Invincible F7 and in Europe to Panhans, Hofmann and Utis.

[David Kumm]

Joe is the go to guy about anything Euro, machines and tooling. I believe Northfield spec's their tables to be within .003 or better along their 8' length. I suspect Martin and L'Invincible will be similar but you won't find many short 8" jointers that can boast that. Of course the price point and market are entirely different. I'm a US bandsaw guy but a Euro shaper fan. Martin, for table saws I'd add Whitney and Greenlee to your list- maybe on top. The Robinson is my favorite saw with a short slider, followed by Whitney, and Wadkin. I think their sliding table designs are slightly better than the Oliver but we are splitting hairs here. There are still a lot of machines to cover but I digress. Dave

[mreza Salav]

Joe, excuse me for jumping in, but I'm trying to imagine running a heavy passage door on its edge to get a bevel on the jointer (I used my track saw :o). how tall is the fence on the jointer that allows doing this easily?

[Rick Fisher]

The fence on my Griggio is 7" tall.

It would be sufficient to bevel interior doors.

[Erik Loza]

..The Martin jointer is better compared to the SCM L’Invincible F7...

Joe, can you explain why you feel this way? Not a flame war question, an honest question. What specifically makes it better? Also, what does that Martin jointer cost? I know that the Invincible costs but not the Martin. Curious to know.

Of all the machines out there, Martin is the one I run into least. If I'm being honest, most Martin owners I know are rich hobbyists, not production shops. Not sure where it is anywhere else the vast majority of commercial shops I run into have Altendorf or SCMi equipment and the more basic models, at that.

Not shilling for SCM here (I'm actually forbidden from dealing in Invincible machines in most parts of the country, since most of them require a dealer service contract and technician to install, which I can't offer) but the F7 does have a pretty nice returning guard as well.

Erik


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdgbp8rjoLg

[peter gagliardi]

Eric, thanks for posting that. Initially, it would seem that that guard works reasonably well and is clever, but I have to wonder the durability and toughness of such an arrangement over time?
On my old American with the porkchop style solid aluminum style guard , it sees a little bit of abuse from large,heavy ,unwieldy thick planks. Sometimes while positioning, it is not uncommon to have an end of a 80-120 lb plank resting on top of the guard.
It probably doesn't like it, but it does it.
I don't think even the Martin guard would like it to be fair.
I don't abuse my equipment, per se, but it does get used heavily at times, with big stuff.

I haven't been able to look closely at the newest generation SCM equipment, but I did last back at IWF in 2004, or 2006.
At that time there was a very large gap in fit, finish, and engineering between Martin and any of the Italian machines, almost comical on the shaper especially.

I am, however looking into a new high end shaper, and if only from a distance at this point- again, haven't been able to inspect up close, I am encouraged that SCM might be actually trying to close that fit,finish, and engineering gap a bit!

I am headed to IWF again this year to inspect and compare basically side by side.

[Rich Riddle]

I like the old Martin. Ken's right about all the technology.

[Frank Drew]

I bought a mid-Fifties Northfield medium-duty 12" jointer in 1981 and sold it twenty-five years later. I used it in a one-man custom furniture shop so it wasn't running hard all day, but, still, I got twenty-five years out of it with no degrade in performance over that time.

It had been sold new as a direct drive but when I bought it it had been converted to belt drive, without a motor. The used 3 hp dustproof motor I bought was still going strong when I sold the machine.

My only beef with the machine was the difficulty replacing and aligning the straight knives (3); I kept a couple of sharpened spare sets so there wasn't any down time when a set needed re-sharpening, but it was a p.i.a. to set the knives. Once set, though, they stayed set for the life of their sharpness. I ran a lot of large boards over it, and some heavy timbers, and the machine could easily handle anything I could heft. I always used ear muffs, absolutely positively when face-planing which was louder than loud.

As for which machine to get, among the many fine ones available, my strong inclination would be used; I'm only familiar with American jointers, and have a prejudice for Oliver, but if you can find a good European machine on the used market at a good price....

Then there's the fun job of moving one of those monsters!

[Erik Loza]

Peter, I think Martin stuff is awesome but my take has always been that SCM is good enough for what most shops need, at a more effective price point. That's not me shilling for SCM, it's just my professional observation as a guy with many pro customers and as a guy who has been in his fair share of pro shops. I'm not going to IWF this year but they will have a couple of Invincible machines there. My pitch to guys has always been, "The Martin is great. Buy it if you like but the Invincible will do exactly the same thing and save you some money". Like I said before, I've never seen a new Martin machine in one of my shops. I know they're out there and I know folks must buy them but most of the Martin owners I come in contact with are affluent hobbyists. Again, not a judgment, just an observation.

From the IWF side of things (and I can say this because I've done almost every one of them), machines like the Invincible and the top-of-the-line Martin gear aren't there to sell Invincibles or top-of-the-line Martin gear. They're there to get you in the booth, wow you with the technology (they actually upload an automated "demo" mode for the motorized functions, so the customer can watch the machine run through its paces) then get you looking at the more basic stuff. I would bet money that Martin sells mostly their re-badged Griggio equipment at their shows, just like Stiles sells more of their Chinese sliders than the real Altendorfs. Exact same thing with SCM: The Invincible sells Novas for me. "Mr. Customer, what if you could get a machine that cuts the exact same way, at a quarter the cost?", and presto, a Nova sale. Here is the AWFS booth from last year. Notice the entry level Si400 Nova right next to the Si7 L'Invincible. Think that's by accident?

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/AWFS%202015/Nova_zps0k3nhsdu.jpg

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

Frank, the easiest jointer I've seen to change knives was a Faye & Egan that had a indexing wheel on the direct drive head. I made my own magnetic jig which held the knives perfectly vertical. I put a height gauge on the outfeed table adjustment wheel ,had a marking for "change knives" and another mark for "new knives". Other marks about 3/8 of an inch apart that represented table movement of 2 thousandths. Made it easy and quick to adjust even for slight nicks. The large acme threads make such an arrangement quite accurate. I consider the lack of factory provided pointer and increment marks a serious omission .

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, excuse me for jumping in, but I'm trying to imagine running a heavy passage door on its edge to get a bevel on the jointer (I used my track saw :o). how tall is the fence on the jointer that allows doing this easily?

Hi Moe,
We didn't start doing this till we got the Martin. The long 78" infeed makes it easy and the fact the Tersa head makes a good finish cut regardless of grain direction also helps. We had tried this on our old straight knife SCM with poor results. This can be done horizontally on the shaper with the head tilted 3 degrees but is about a 5 to 10 minute setup so we usually go to the jointer where we can setup in seconds. Generally if we have 30 or so doors we do the shaper setup.
It takes team work and feel with 2 operators. This is not beveling but just to give a idea.

342464

We have these doors in the shop and they are a struggle to move with 2 guys. 4' X 8' X 2 1/4" We dId these with the Festo power plane but 95% or so of our doors are beveled on the jointer.

342465

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, can you explain why you feel this way? Not a flame war question, an honest question. What specifically makes it better? Also, what does that Martin jointer cost? I know that the Invincible costs but not the Martin. Curious to know.

Of all the machines out there, Martin is the one I run into least. If I'm being honest, most Martin owners I know are rich hobbyists, not production shops. Not sure where it is anywhere else the vast majority of commercial shops I run into have Altendorf or SCMi equipment and the more basic models, at that.

Not shilling for SCM here (I'm actually forbidden from dealing in Invincible machines in most parts of the country, since most of them require a dealer service contract and technician to install, which I can't offer) but the F7 does have a pretty nice returning guard as well.

Erik

Eric, My statement is a little confusing. What I meant is the only new jointer on the US market that is comparable to the Martin is the L'Invincible F7. Hofmann, Utis and Panhans are comparable but not easy available here.
The F7 has similar features. 2 things that is better on the Martin is the composite frame vs the sheet steel frame on the F7 and the in-house made and balanced Tersa head of the Martin compared to the outsourced laminated Tersa head of the SCM. Felder uses this same head.
I have not used the fence of the F7 so I don't know how it compares to Martins. I do believe I like the Suva guard better than the one in the vid. That is aftermarket anyway.
List price of a Martin jointer is about 21K.

Its true some well to do hobbyists have Martin. Most are professionals of some sort and value their shop time and want the most efficient machines possible. It does not surprise me that you don't see much Martin. I hardly ever see Minimax or Felder in any pro shops that have Martin. These are sometimes large custom shops but usually 2 to 5 man shops that are at the top of the food chain as far as quality work goes. I also see some L'Invvincible in these shops. I used to have some in my shop as well.

edit - I mean no disrespect to MM and Felder users. I also work with a lot of home and small shops using this machinery and in capable hands top quality work can be produced.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Joe. My passage doors were about 100lb each and the entry I estimate around #200 (42"x8'x2.25").

[Brodie Brickey]

You might check out this video of a visit to Northfield's manufacturing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z59Kp8SbbfM

[David Kumm]

Joe and Erik, I would suspect that Martin and L'invincible are the only comparables in shapers here in US as well. I don't know if Panhans shapers make it over here or not. I used to see info on the Ex Factory site. Dave

[Erik Loza]

....2 things that is better on the Martin is the composite frame vs the sheet steel frame on the F7 and the in-house made and balanced Tersa head of the Martin compared to the outsourced laminated Tersa head of the SCM...

Joe, how does the composite frame make it better? I'm not trying to argue but educate me as to why. I understand the Martin is heavier (by approx. 700 lbs., according to their literature) but the F7 is a still a 1,900lb. machine. I can accept statistics like "heavier", "longer", and "bigger motor". Those are quantifiable facts but "better" is subjective. "Better", how? Is it better just "because it's a Martin", like a Rolex is better because it's a Rolex, or are there things it can do that other machines can't?

Regarding Tersa heads, SCM does use the laminated steel Tersa heads on the hobby-level Minimax, such as the Genius and Classic lines but the Minimax Elite, Elite-S, and all the big SCMi stuff uses a Monobloc Tersa head: One machined billet of steel. I've changed knives on the entire range of SCM and Minimax machines and can personally vouch for that fact. Here is a stock photo of a Minimax FS52-Elite-S with Tersa. As you can see, it's Monobloc.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Elite-s/fs_52_elite_s-4_zpszh6dg3oa.jpg

Erik

[Jeff Duncan]

Joe, excuse me for jumping in, but I'm trying to imagine running a heavy passage door on its edge to get a bevel on the jointer (I used my track saw :o). how tall is the fence on the jointer that allows doing this easily?

Yeah I've done this as well, it's not as difficult as it may seem. You just need plenty of infeed and outfield support and the rest is balancing;)

"I haven't been able to look closely at the newest generation SCM equipment, but I did last back at IWF in 2004, or 2006.
At that time there was a very large gap in fit, finish, and engineering between Martin and any of the Italian machines, almost comical on the shaper especially."

That's funny, my experience is with much older machines, 2 shapers actually, an SCM T-160 and a Martin T-20 both roughly 40 years old, both built like tanks, but the Martin is so much more refined whereas the SCM is really just a brute. It's not something that really stands out, but with use you see the difference fairly quickly. Though again these are old machines so not much good for comparing against the newer generations.

JeffD

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, how does the composite frame make it better? I'm not trying to argue but educate me as to why. I understand the Martin is heavier (by approx. 700 lbs., according to their literature) but the F7 is a still a 1,900lb. machine. I can accept statistics like "heavier", "longer", and "bigger motor". Those are quantifiable facts but "better" is subjective. "Better", how? Is it better just "because it's a Martin", like a Rolex is better because it's a Rolex, or are there things it can do that other machines can't?

Regarding Tersa heads, SCM does use the laminated steel Tersa heads on the hobby-level Minimax, such as the Genius and Classic lines but the Minimax Elite, Elite-S, and all the big SCMi stuff uses a Monobloc Tersa head: One machined billet of steel. I've changed knives on the entire range of SCM and Minimax machines and can personally vouch for that fact. Here is a stock photo of a Minimax FS52-Elite-S with Tersa. As you can see, it's Monobloc.

Erik,
A composite frame is better than a steel sheet frame for many reasons – Martin makes a true composite frame similar to what is used on some high end metal working machines. In simple terms they fill pockets of the welded steel frame with a concrete compound. Their claim is that it has a better damping factor than cast iron.
This leads to less vibration and quiet running.
Not sure I agree totally with this, as my old cast iron Martin saw was very vibration free. I spent a lot of time at Holz Handwerk this year kicking the tires of Hofmann and Utis who still make solid cast machines. They are finely crafted machines and were a lot quieter and vibration free than the new Panhans sheet steel machines.

They go on to say this type frame is more resistant to distortion, has high stability and has a lower center of gravity than sheet steel. For sure this is better construction than sheet steel but more costly.
Some Italian makers tried to imitate this type construction by pouring concrete in the base or putting concrete blocks in the base but it is not the same.

Why do woodworkers spend more money for these type machines? Probably for the same reason some woodworkers will spend more money for Holtey or high-end Japanese planes.

My experience with L’Invincable is on 1980s era machines I owned. They were lacking on many details and not near the quality of Martin at the time. Used prices for Martin vs. SCM will confirm this. I will say the new L’Invincable looks pretty good. The true test would be using the machines in a shop environment for a few days.

Good to know SCM is putting solid Tersa blocks in the high-end machines. Are they made by MBM or built in house?

[Rick Fisher]

I'm about 2 weeks from receiving a new T-60C Slider. One of the things that really swung me was resale value. A used Martin Machine is worth a high percentage of what you paid, and they sell really fast around here. I think they sell fast everywhere.

That concrete thing that Joe talked about makes a lot of sense. The T-60C is about 1000 lbs heavier than its competitors.

What really struck me though was that I asked for 3 prices. The Martin dealer was really prompt in replying, and when I stumped him, the Martin rep started emailing me answering whatever questions I could possibly ask. I got the feeling that Martin was extremely customer focused.

[Joe Jensen]

Customer service is a key for me. I am an affluent advanced hobbyist. At this level machines are all pretty amazing. The difference for me is service before and especially after the sale. Have an issue with a new machine, how well does the vendor and sales rep respond? When I shop I will talk with owners in the local area to see how well they get supported. It's amazing how a sales rep doesn't realize that support after the sale is a determinant when the customer is deciding who to buy from on the next too. Carl from Felder has been super responsive and helpful. I've had no big issues but the before and afer sale customer responsiveness and support have been excellent. Spare parts availability would be another key. I will steer towards machines that use standard off the shelf control building blocks so that in the future they can be repaired without having to have a custom board. The 2009 Felder I bought is like this and earlier Felder machines had boards die with not spares available requiring owners with failed boards to spend big bucks replacing electronics to the new modular off the shelf version.

[Rick Fisher]

Joe makes a really great point..

Lots of companies are really helpful before you write the big check .. You really find out who your dealing with after the check clears.

Some of the companies are actually quite poor. I wonder how Martin will be if there is a problem ..

[Erik Loza]

....A composite frame is better than a steel sheet frame for many reasons – Martin makes a true composite frame similar to what is used on some high end metal working machines. In simple terms they fill pockets of the welded steel frame with a concrete compound. Their claim is that it has a better damping factor than cast iron.
This leads to less vibration and quiet running.
Not sure I agree totally with this, as my old cast iron Martin saw was very vibration free. I spent a lot of time at Holz Handwerk this year kicking the tires of Hofmann and Utis who still make solid cast machines. They are finely crafted machines and were a lot quieter and vibration free than the new Panhans sheet steel machines.

They go on to say this type frame is more resistant to distortion, has high stability and has a lower center of gravity than sheet steel. For sure this is better construction than sheet steel but more costly.
Some Italian makers tried to imitate this type construction by pouring concrete in the base or putting concrete blocks in the base but it is not the same.

Why do woodworkers spend more money for these type machines? Probably for the same reason some woodworkers will spend more money for Holtey or high-end Japanese planes.

My experience with L’Invincable is on 1980s era machines I owned. They were lacking on many details and not near the quality of Martin at the time. Used prices for Martin vs. SCM will confirm this. I will say the new L’Invincable looks pretty good. The true test would be using the machines in a shop environment for a few days.

Good to know SCM is putting solid Tersa blocks in the high-end machines. Are they made by MBM or built in house?

Sounds like, "because it's a Rolex". If someone is using the whole "used value" argument as a criteria (assuming the choices on the table are all quality options that will do what you want, not a case of European vs. Chaiwanese...) then they're buying because of name value. There's nothing wrong with that but let's be honest about it. To be fair, I'm not a super fan of SCMi or Invincible machines; every time I see an Si400 Nova, it looks more and more Chinese and the last Invincible slider I saw at a show had some surprisingly cheap parts on it for a $40K saw but that doesn't change the fact that these machines will do exactly what the customer expects and in most cases, you don't need most of the features they offer to do what you expect. The F410 Nova jointer is as vanilla as you can get but I cannot ever remember any customer having an issue with one. And that's going back to 2004. I'd love to have a Rolex but my Seiko dive watch keeps just as good time and hasn't let me down yet.

Regarding the Tersa heads, I don't have any idea where they are made (well, I know not in China, at least...) but why would it matter? Again, I'm not arguing but that sounds like some sales flim-flam. If that were a real thing, wouldn't we be hearing about it? When was the last time any of us heard, "Oh, my Tersa head failed because it wasn't made in-house"? If we're going by statistics, the Tersa head I've sold the most of is the laminated steel one, of the Smart and Classic series. That's the most inexpensive Tersa head and I've put literally hundreds of those into guys' shops and garages over the years and have yet to hear of even one failure.

I spoke to a gentleman a few weeks back who was looking at a new F410 Nova or a new Martin jointer and apparently, could afford either one. My response to him basically was, "Buy the Martin. You have an opportunity 99.9% of the guys I talk to will have never have: To be able to afford what you really want." The guy who wants and can afford a Rolex is not going to be happy with a $300 Seiko. For 99% of the shops out there, I know that a bread-and-butter F410 Nova will do the job just fine but it's your money and we should all buy what want. Just my 2-cents, which is maybe worth half that.


I am an affluent advanced hobbyist... I will steer towards machines that use standard off the shelf control building blocks so that in the future they can be repaired without having to have a custom board...

100% agreed: My advice to hobbyists is to avoid electronics. Powered raising or lowering of a planer table or saw unit are not such a problem since that's just a servo motor and an LED readout but "electronic position control" or any type of programmability it to be avoided at all costs. The only circumstance in which I'd want programmability on a hobby machine is if the dealer were local to me and I knew that if there were an issue, a tech could be in the shop within a reasonable timeframe.

Erik

[David Kumm]

I hope this thread doesn't turn into a" which machine is the best " competition. I see the value in just learning the build similarities and differences among different high end machines that we seldom see. I know a fair amount about old machinery quality but only get to see the top stuff every few years. Even though it is probably irrelevant in real life, I'm always interested in the quality, thickness, and maybe even the grading of the cast iron, the quality of the bearings used and the lubrication system. Motor quality and frame size per kw is a big deal and seldom mentioned. How flat does the company spec their tables, how thick is the steel in the base and does it have or need a floor. How are the guts of the machine supported and what is the bearing system for sliding table. Even if I never own a new high end machine, it interests me in how each company builds theirs and where they cut corners. Which is better is a personal decision and better not part of this discussion.

I'd really like to find more info on the few other high end Euro machine companies out there. There is a Swiss table saw that is the only comparable I've seen to my Robinson but the name hasn't made it to long term memory. Dave

EDIT: Reinhard

[David Kumm]

There is interesting reading on the Hofmann site about their foundry source and the " iron cast " they use. Utis uses a cast iron monoblock base in most machines but looks like 8mm steel in the jointers. they are both impressive. Dave

[Joe Jensen]

David, I was lucky enough to get a personal tour through the Felder factory in Triol Austria a few years ago. I was very surprised at the level of robotics and CNC in their manufacturing. They also talked about the fact that they outsourced their cast iron to a third party but they had strict quality control and it was local supplier they trusted. It's my understanding that once to the most important things with cast iron is the aging through the seasons winter, summer, etc. Felder said the same thing. As a side note, I got a tour years ago through a formula 1 racing builder and they said they required 3 years of aging on all cast iron parts before machining.

[Erik Loza]

One thing I can add from the design side of things is that from a functionality standpoint, we no longer need to make machines that weigh a million pounds out of solid cast iron to do their jobs correctly. In fact, I would argue that modern CAD engineering lets us design machines that are lighter, less expensive to manufacture, yet stronger where they need to be. All of which benefits the consumer. Just like automobiles: You don't need to make a car body out of heavy gauge steel these days and you don't need to make engine blocks out of cast iron any longer. You can make a unibody car that weighs less but gets better fuel econmy and is safer to the driver. Due to a better understanding of engineering. For example, I would argue that any of the modern Italian bandsaws has a stiffer frame than any of the old cast iron machine of the same size. Now, that leaves out the intangibles such as a bigger heavier machine running more smoothly or being quieter, or just the cool factor. I'd love to have a big old Yates Snowflake or Oliver because they're awesome. But if we're talking "how does it need to be built", heavier might be smoother/quieter/more assured feel to the operator but as far as performance, it doesn't automatically guarantee better results. If that got lost, that's what I was trying to say in all this.

Erik

[Martin Wasner]

Why does Martin have to make everything look like an art deco piece from the 60's? Not that looks really matter in the ability to machine wood, but anything they make would look hugely out of place in my shop. Which may also be the point, I don't know.

[Martin Wasner]

Art deco would be incorrect. I don't know what they look like

[Erik Loza]

Why does Martin have to make everything look like an art deco piece from the 60's? Not that looks really matter in the ability to machine wood, but anything they make would look hugely out of place in my shop. Which may also be the point, I don't know.

Why is all the SCMi stuff the same color as your fridge? The Ti7 L'Invincible looks like a washer and dryer...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/AWFS%202015/T7_zps3uek5hjl.jpg

I think Felder does the best in terms of "a look" for the machines. The blue Formats, in particular.

Erik

[David Kumm]

I agree Erik. Old methods aren't always better and new aren't always an improvement. That is why these discussions can be helpful. This one is limited to the high end stuff so we don't need to get into the compromises between build and price point that become such an issue with the machines most of us use and can afford. At the high end, it's probably more about which machine works best for the end user rather than which is best. The different methods and materials for the bases is interesting though. I'm a huge fan of a base stout enough to hang the innards rather than using the cast iron table for support. That seems to differentiate the high from the middle, at least for shapers and saws.

Joe, I think Felder has three sources and grades of cast iron for their machines. I don't know if the differences are simply grinding, or grade and thickness of casting. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Dave, out of curiosity, do you know much about that "Ironwood" stuff that Stiles sells? For obvious reasons, I'm not allowed in their booth, so only checked it out from the aisle. I know it's Chaiwanese and it looks beefy but beyond that, don't know. I don't run into it from the sales side but then again, I don't really compete directly with Stiles anyhow. Just curious.

Erik

[Larry Edgerton]

I used to do doors that way on my Porter when I had employees, but now that I work alone I put the bevel on the styles before glueup and use a matching beveled caul. I had a spring loaded guide with roller skate wheels that bolted to the table to help hold them against the fence. Need to make one to fit the SCM I am running now, left that on the Porter when I sold it.

My SCM mono head does not really say who it is made by, just says SCM Group by Tersa.

Still Joe with the pictures.:( I don't have the market here to buy the tools that I have, so I am waiting for the lottery........

Maybe I'll just buy some turquoise paint.........

Eric, I think I have every color SCM paint in the shop, and I like the white the best. But then all the old colors were butt ugly. Especially that yellow that reminds me of changing diapers, nasty!

[David Kumm]

Erik, I'm no help. Looks like it is similar to Cantek stuff. There are guys here who have dealt with Stiles on Altendorf saws and have been happy with the service. I looked at the machines the last time I was at IWF and they seemed pretty decent. Really hard to judge new machines. Most of my opinions have come from rehabbing older ones and seeing how they are really put together. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Dave, out of curiosity, do you know much about that "Ironwood" stuff that Stiles sells? For obvious reasons, I'm not allowed in their booth, so only checked it out from the aisle. I know it's Chaiwanese and it looks beefy but beyond that, don't know. I don't run into it from the sales side but then again, I don't really compete directly with Stiles anyhow. Just curious.

Erik

Some of it looks like Cantek with different paint to me. From what I've seen anyways.

[Erik Loza]

Erik, I'm no help. Looks like it is similar to Cantek stuff. There are guys here who have dealt with Stiles on Altendorf saws and have been happy with the service. I looked at the machines the last time I was at IWF and they seemed pretty decent. Really hard to judge new machines. Most of my opinions have come from rehabbing older ones and seeing how they are really put together. Dave


Some of it looks like Cantek with different paint to me. From what I've seen anyways.

Ahhh, Cantek. Had forgotten about them. I guess they OEM out their stuff, like lots of other Chinese manufacturers. That is actually one of the interesting things you get to see at the big shows: The actual OEM suppliers for lots of the Euro machinery. Woodfast was there last time and they make a very well known jointer/planer for the hobby market.

Erik

[John Sincerbeaux]

A couple of days ago I talked to the owner of Northfield. He is forth generation Northfield. That's pretty cool in itself!
As anyone I have ever met from Minnesota, I liked him. About as straight up, no nonsense as they get. Lots of interesting info, too long to write here.
But here are some points:
They only sell about ten "16" HD jointers a year.
As others have said here, Jeff (owner) says they are very basic machines.
They made a decision long ago to stay away from fancy electronics and motorized machines because they felt, they were unnecessary and ultimately would "fail five years later anyway". Also decided NOT to try to compete by degrading quality for quantity(sales).
I Found this very interesting... I asked him how are they the only company left of all the "legacy" brands? He said the lawyers put the final nails in the legacy companies. I won't say on this forum what he said next but I will say... He said lawyers only want cash, not machines.
I am still not sure exactly how they survive? I received a quote yesterday and I was surprised by two things. The quote was for a 16" jointer "build". And the estimate delivery was for 14-16 weeks. I realize know why a Northfield is so expensive. You're basically getting a custom built jointer that will last 100 years built in a monster machine shop probably by only one or two people. In that setting there are no "economy of scale" to keep the costs down.

[peter gagliardi]

John, that is interesting, and true. Basically a custom standard machine built on order. I spoke with Jeff at one of the IWF shows - 2004 I think??
Anyway, he told me then that they wouldn't be displaying at further shows. He said it cost his size company around $50k for floor space at the show, and he didn't have much space then.
That means basically giving away 2-3 machines that year just to be in the show. I certainly couldn't afford to give away 1 free kitchen, let alone 2-3 in a year, so I understand that fully.

On another note, the SCM stuff in all white is a huge improvement over old, but still less than ideal.
I really only care about paint color if doing a restoration, then I pick what I want.
I think Martin's paint color choice is good, but they need to lose the grey accents.

[David Kumm]

10 16" jointers are actually more than I would have guessed. Given the medium and heavy models in various widths, and the planers, bandsaws, and table saws, they are delivering a fair number of machines for a custom job shop. The long lead time is good news. A short one would mean they aren't long for this world. I hope they continue to find a market. Society is always better off with a few lifting the bar.

Woodfast ( Qing Dao ) has their imprint on more Euro stuff than they get credit for. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

They are small. Plus the equipment and property was likely paid for decades ago. They have their niche and barring getting sued to death or no one taking over Jeff's spot, they'll likely be around for quite some time.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Comments regards to some posts on this thread.

First of all, great info shared here by all.
Certainly no right or wrong answer regarding a comparison of two machines. Whenever we buy anything, we all have different wants and needs, different budgets, color preference, shop size, retirement portfolios etc.

A Northfield 16" jointer vs. a Martin jointer? I would love to have either. The irony is I can afford either because I am not a professional woodworker. I have wood worked for most of my life, buying my first tablesaw when I was 16. A major part of my retirement plan is to have a shop with an amazing view of the mountains and filled with really nice machines and tools. Think Joe Calhoon.... living in Ouray Co., working in a shop filled with Martin Machines and dropping everything when there is fresh powder to go back country skiing😀

I was at the AWFS show in Vegas last year. I visited Carl in the Martin booth first. I then went to the Felder and SCM booths. From purely a non biased opinion, Martin machines blow doors off all the rest in fit and finish alone.

As as far as the color of Martin Machines? From my visits to Germany, Germans are pretty conservative but when it comes to their products, they LOVE bold and vibrant colors.

[John Sincerbeaux]

They are small. Plus the equipment and property was likely paid for decades ago. They have their niche and barring getting sued to death or no one taking over Jeff's spot, they'll likely be around for quite some time.

And the genius in that is.. if you were a manufacturer and had a multi million dollar liability policy the lawyers are always circling overhead. But if you dropped the policy, the lawyers fly somewhere else. As Jeff said... Lawyers want cash not iron.

Also, I believe Jeff said there are others in the Northfield wings to take the reigns when he retires.

[Andrew Hughes]

I think Northfield machines are really beautiful.When I was on my used jointer quest I saw one that was just out of my reach.I did get my my quest machine a Oliver 166. My attitude and work have improved since.

Aj

[Jeff Duncan]

Well my favorite SCM color is this....
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_3151.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_3151.jpg.html)

Maybe Erik can put in a word for next years models:D
JeffD

[Erik Loza]

Jeff, is that custom?

Erik

[Andrew Hughes]

Now that's a nice looking machine.Some of those square Euro machine are a interesting as a hair brush making machine.Like they show on How it's made.

Aj

[Joe Jensen]

On paint color when I toured the Felder factory they had a ton of shop fixturing in a very bright hot pink color. I asked why that color and was told that they will custom paint machines for customers for an upcharge. One customer ordered a full compliment of machines in hot pink. Felder had to buy a pallet of powder coat and rather than waste the hot pink powder they just used it for internal fixtures. Maybe candy apple red machines :)

[David Kumm]

Jeff, in addition to the color, you should explain a little about the machine itself. As I recall ( increasingly difficult ), the spindle was a splined design that you did some work on and different from what you generally see on shapers. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

I used to do doors that way on my Porter when I had employees, but now that I work alone I put the bevel on the styles before glueup and use a matching beveled caul. I had a spring loaded guide with roller skate wheels that bolted to the table to help hold them against the fence. Need to make one to fit the SCM I am running now, left that on the Porter when I sold it.

My SCM mono head does not really say who it is made by, just says SCM Group by Tersa.

Still Joe with the pictures.:( I don't have the market here to buy the tools that I have, so I am waiting for the lottery........

Maybe I'll just buy some turquoise paint.........

Eric, I think I have every color SCM paint in the shop, and I like the white the best. But then all the old colors were butt ugly. Especially that yellow that reminds me of changing diapers, nasty!

Larry,
I was just thinking in about 4 years my Martins will be 20 years old and I can start calling them vintage. Come out to Colorado, we can have a beer, talk machines and I will send you home with a gallon of Vasser Blu paint. And I want to hear about those ex wives...

[Joe Calhoon]

Comments regards to some posts on this thread.

First of all, great info shared here by all.
Certainly no right or wrong answer regarding a comparison of two machines. Whenever we buy anything, we all have different wants and needs, different budgets, color preference, shop size, retirement portfolios etc.

A Northfield 16" jointer vs. a Martin jointer? I would love to have either. The irony is I can afford either because I am not a professional woodworker. I have wood worked for most of my life, buying my first tablesaw when I was 16. A major part of my retirement plan is to have a shop with an amazing view of the mountains and filled with really nice machines and tools. Think Joe Calhoon.... living in Ouray Co., working in a shop filled with Martin Machines and dropping everything when there is fresh powder to go back country skiing

I was at the AWFS show in Vegas last year. I visited Carl in the Martin booth first. I then went to the Felder and SCM booths. From purely a non biased opinion, Martin machines blow doors off all the rest in fit and finish alone.

As as far as the color of Martin Machines? From my visits to Germany, Germans are pretty conservative but when it comes to their products, they LOVE bold and vibrant colors.

John,
Skiing, now we are talking good stuff! It was a good winter and spring here. Made the last run July 5th. I wonder what a discussion of buying stock $800 dollar skis vs $2500 custom skis would lead to.
The Martin Blue comes from the designs of the late Italian Architect Ettore Sottsass. I like Jeff's T160. Maybe that for my Oliver disk sander to contrast the blue machines.

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry,
I was just thinking in about 4 years my Martins will be 20 years old and I can start calling them vintage. Come out to Colorado, we can have a beer, talk machines and I will send you home with a gallon of Vasser Blu paint. And I want to hear about those ex wives...

Joe, I figured when I get back out to Colorado I was going to look you up, just hasn't happened. Getting old, not able to work as much so less expendable income for wandering. Sure would enjoy having a brew with you, maybe two. I might even work in your shop for a few days for nothing, you must have sanding to do, just so I could pick up some pointers. I've done some cool stuff, but you blow me away!

On the ex-wives, all I can tell you is if a woman walks in a bar and every man wants her, don't marry her. In fact, run like hell. Fast cars and fast woman, bad deal..........

[Brad Shipton]

A Northfield popped up on the woodweb today. Not sure if you are interested in used.

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/492922.html

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff, is that custom?

Erik

Yup, when I bought the machine the paint was flaking off everywhere. Possibly from being located in a shop right on the ocean for so many years? Anyway since it needed a partial rebuild anyway I decided to go full out and give it a fresh coat of paint. While it might not be to everyones taste, it's certainly better IMHO than the blah green they, (and just about every other manufacturer) used originally. I think it was called "chili pepper red", or something similar. Was fun to do but car paints are just stupid expensive so won't be doing too many more of these projects:o
JeffD

[Erik Loza]

Yup, when I bought the machine the paint was flaking off everywhere. Possibly from being located in a shop right on the ocean for so many years? Anyway since it needed a partial rebuild anyway I decided to go full out and give it a fresh coat of paint. While it might not be to everyones taste, it's certainly better IMHO than the blah green they, (and just about every other manufacturer) used originally. I think it was called "chili pepper red", or something similar. Was fun to do but car paints are just stupid expensive so won't be doing too many more of these projects:o
JeffD

That's pretty awesome. I had a pipe dream years ago, to open a custom shop for bandsaws. Take stock Centauro saws and do a different color plus a bunch of ideas I had to trick them out. Then it occurred to me that probably nobody would want to pay $10K for a 16" bandsaw but it was fun to think about.

Erik

[Joe Calhoon]

There is interesting reading on the Hofmann site about their foundry source and the " iron cast " they use. Utis uses a cast iron monoblock base in most machines but looks like 8mm steel in the jointers. they are both impressive. Dave

Dave, these are both interesting companies. The Hofmann shaper that tilts to 90 just intrigues me. Being a shaper fanatic just getting to try one of these out is on my bucket list. Their J/P is awesome also. Utis is built old world heavy with modern electronics. One unique item with them is they use AC motors for all the servo movements of the machines instead of wimpy DC servos like everyone else uses.
i hope these companies and Northfield can survive in the cost engineering so common with all the machine mfgs now

check out the videos for this company that uses high end Japanese, euro and old US iron to produce their product.
http://berkeleymills.com/have-you-ever-wondered-how-berkeley-mills-furniture-is-made/

[peter gagliardi]

Erik, i think you are right about that. I am wrapping up a 36" Yates snowflake restoration, and like Jeff, I used auto paint.
Not cheap, but after sanding and filling frame, it is by far the nicest resto I have. I paid good money for the saw, and paid my brother Josh to do all the bodywork and painting. Adds up fast!
I only do this for machines that i aquire that i will keep until i retire.
342616
342617
342618

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter, The saw is looking good! Every time I turn on my sheet metal Italian saw I remember trying out the old iron saws in your shop! Maybe someday... The advertised as new Northfield saw in Denver looks interesting and close.

I agree about the auto paint. It's expensive but worth it if restoring. I used Sherwin Williams metal paint on mine and it is not very tough. Agree about the Martin gray accents also. I tried that on the T23 and did not like the look. Happy with the clear. decorative metal on the sheet metal parts though.
342629342630

[Jeff Bartley]

I just love these threads! Awesome pics! I wish I had more to add but I've only ever seen Northfield machines in person.
But to that end I will say that when I was looking for a big jointer I lucked into a 16 HD Northfield and it's a most impressive chunk of iron!
Hopefully I'll have a spot for it soon, I haven't even run it in my own shop.

[peter gagliardi]

Joe, that engine turning is an awesome look for sure. Also a bit time intensive as well.

[Rich Riddle]

If you are going to take the time to strip and restore a large tool, you should use the best paint you can. In the grand scheme, the paint won't cost that much more and the time you save doing it again will outweigh the incidental amount.