Plane and Chisel Sharpening

[Michael Alu]

As I continue to learn and progress my woodworking I have yet to incorporate hand tools. Several old Millers Falls and Stanley hand planes have been handed down and I have purchased a new set of Stanley Sweetheart chisels for an intro set into using chisels. Now onto getting them sharp before using them. I am planning to purchase several Shapton ceramic stones in 1000, 5000, and 8000 grit. My question is regarding the flattening plate. The Shapton flattening/lapping plate is pretty damn expensive for a flattening plate. I was looking into the DMT 8" Dia-Sharp Course plate ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001WP1L0/ref=crt_ewc_title_dp_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER ) or the 10" DMT Duo-Sharp Coarse/Extra Course plate ( https://www.amazon.com/DMT-W250CXNB-10-Inch-DuoSharp-Extra-Coarse/dp/B00004WFUL/ref=pd_sim_469_7?ie=UTF8&dpID=41nQ3PYbVLL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&psc=1&refRID=N2YATM0Q8GAX2JZ334SB ). I was just curious if anyone has used either of these plates and their opinion or advice on which way to go for a flattening plate.

Thanks,

Mike

[Kevin Womer]

I have the Shapton glass stones, I believe 1000 and 4000. I flatten them using a DMT coarse/extra coarse (blue and black dots) diamond stone under running water and it's very easy to do using the DMT. I do recommend getting the 10 inch versus the 8 inch DMT, the extra length makes it easy. Run chisels and blades on a leather strop with compound and get a finish I can see myself in when I'm done. It is overkill to sharpen to 8000 and would save some money. Just my opinion.

[Jim Koepke]

It is overkill to sharpen to 8000 and would save some money. Just my opinion.

I do not agree.

For a lot of work 4000 grit may be enough. Though all of my blades are honed all the way to 8000 when using water stones, one could get by with just 4000 for scrub planes and dimensioning.

For the final smoothing I like as sharp a blade as my abilities will produce.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

As I continue to learn and progress my woodworking I have yet to incorporate hand tools. Several old Millers Falls and Stanley hand planes have been handed down and I have purchased a new set of Stanley Sweetheart chisels for an intro set into using chisels. Now onto getting them sharp before using them. I am planning to purchase several Shapton ceramic stones in 1000, 5000, and 8000 grit. My question is regarding the flattening plate. The Shapton flattening/lapping plate is pretty damn expensive for a flattening plate. I was looking into the DMT 8" Dia-Sharp Course plate ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001WP1L0/ref=crt_ewc_title_dp_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER ) or the 10" DMT Duo-Sharp Coarse/Extra Course plate ( https://www.amazon.com/DMT-W250CXNB-10-Inch-DuoSharp-Extra-Coarse/dp/B00004WFUL/ref=pd_sim_469_7?ie=UTF8&dpID=41nQ3PYbVLL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&psc=1&refRID=N2YATM0Q8GAX2JZ334SB ). I was just curious if anyone has used either of these plates and their opinion or advice on which way to go for a flattening plate.

Thanks,

Mike

You absolutely do not need the Shapton plate, and IMO it would be a very bad choice for a beginner. I say that because the diamonds are attached to the plate with a resin of some sort, and not as durably bonded as the usual electroplated variety. That's why they warn against using it on metal. It isn't something you want to be learning with.

A few other options in order of increasing cost and decreasing hassle:


SiC grit on a flat (non-tempered float) glass plate. #90 grit works well for coarse stones, #280 or so for finer ones. You can get results every bit as flat as any diamond plate, though a bit more slowly and with a much bigger mess to clean up. On the plus side SiC grit and glass plates are both dirt cheap. I still use this method for really coarse stones and Carborundom/Crystolon, as those can strip the diamonds from just about any plates.
DMT Dia-Sharp as you suggest. I've used these and they get the job done. IMO you can get somewhat flatter with truly flat glass and SiC, but the difference isn't enough to matter. You can strip the diamonds off of them with too much pressure and/or the wrong stone (DO NOT use with carborundum/Crystolon) but with care they last a long time.
Atoma #140 or #400 plates from TfJ (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_462_464). Same basic technology as DMT, but these come flatter and hold up longer in my experience.

[Glen Canaday]

It's really about stone flattening rather than sharpening. There probably still is some stuff searchable though.

You know, I read somewhere that someone had been using a cinder block to flatten his oilstones, and someone else used the concrete floor of his garage. I went as far as picking up a free cinder block but I've been too chicken to actually try it. While the OP is getting into waterstones and not oilstones, I still wonder about the validity of the method...

[Trevor Goodwin]

The standard DMT Dia-Sharp plates do not hold up well to a lot of stone lapping. You will find that the more stones you lap, the longer each one takes, because the diamond plate wears out. I suggest glass plate lapping, using sandpaper or grit. You can also lap on a cast iron plate and diamond paste or SiC grit, but might be expensive for you. Norton and Naniwa sell SiC flattening stones made of SiC, but my personal experience hasn't been great as it is slow and eventually the flattening stone needs flattening. Your reference surface should be something that is always flat.

If your budget allows, the 10" DMT Dia-Flat 95 is awesome and you won't look back. It can be used for coarse grinding of tools also. I'm not sure if you'd lap the back of a chisel or plane iron with it though because is can leave deep scratches.

[Prashun Patel]

I deleted the posts about the validity of this thread. No more about that, please. References to other helpful threads are welcome. Blanket criticisms of threads or people are not.

Michael,

I use an eze lap coarse plate. They are quite cheap and work well on the shaptons.

You will find the shaptons flatten easily and stay flat fairly long.

Like Jim, I think the 8000 shaptons is very nice for my use. An alternate or supplemental approach is to buy or make a strop. Some feel that a strop reduces the need to use a finer stone. I use both and it works for me.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I use waterstones, and until they wear out will probably continue using them. If I was starting from scratch, I would try the diamond/ceramic combination George Wilson has mentioned a number of times. Here is a (lengthy) thread about it.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220888-Why-don-t-you-use-ceramic-stones

[Michael Alu]

I deleted the posts about the validity of this thread. No more about that, please. References to other helpful threads are welcome. Blanket criticisms of threads or people are not.

Michael,

I use an eze lap coarse plate. They are quite cheap and work well on the shaptons.

You will find the shaptons flatten easily and stay flat fairly long.

Like Jim, I think the 8000 shaptons is very nice for my use. An alternate or supplemental approach is to buy or make a strop. Some feel that a strop reduces the need to use a finer stone. I use both and it works for me.

The main thing I was worrying about was the flattening process. Some say that the DMT's stones aren't always flat. I already have a strop and compound and plan to use the 1k, 5k, and 8k grit shapton stones. I assume that the eze lap is also suitable for flattening the back as well?

[Brian Holcombe]

Michael,

I use Atoma plates to flatten my whetstones, I find that they're fairly reasonably priced and flat. Frankly, I've never checked the plates for flatness but they are able to work my whetstones to within .001" flatness or flatter, as checked with a granite surface plate or straight edge and feeler gauge.

I would not recommend diamond plates for actually working steel, unless they are separate from those that you use to flatten your stones. Once a diamond plate begins to break in, they do not cut steel particularly fast. I know this because I used my Atoma 140 for cutting steel and it looses it's gusto fairly quickly.

It's better, instead to use a series of stones that will accomplish the task.

[Robert Engel]

Extra coarse diamond mesh to flatten wet stones. Don't know about ceramic stones. My experience is the performance of the stone decreased after using for flattening.

In a nutshell, I sharpen everything to 8000 (for 10 seconds of honing, why stop at 4?) I finish up with a few strokes on a strop.

My advice is hone ;-) your technique to get a consistent edge, then work on reducing time.
THE best way to get back to work quickly is be willing to stop and rehone before the edge gets too dull!

[Patrick Chase]

Michael,

I use Atoma plates to flatten my whetstones, I find that they're fairly reasonably priced and flat. Frankly, I've never checked the plates for flatness but they are able to work my whetstones to within .001" flatness or flatter, as checked with a granite surface plate or straight edge and feeler gauge.

I would not recommend diamond plates for actually working steel, unless they are separate from those that you use to flatten your stones. Once a diamond plate begins to break in, they do not cut steel particularly fast. I know this because I used my Atoma 140 for cutting steel and it looses it's gusto fairly quickly.

It's better, instead to use a series of stones that will accomplish the task.

I agree, though there are two other options to consider if you want (or need) to use diamonds on your tools:

1. Diamond films. These consist of synthetic monocrystalline diamonds (~same as Atoma/DMT) resin-bonded onto polyester. They cost about 1/8th as much per unit area as plates, and are available in much finer grades all the way down to 0.1 microns (the equivalent of #100000 or so). Wearing out and slowing down as Brian describes is much less of an issue, as you can throw them away at that point. They're also much more consistent than plates in my experience, with no "rogue particles" to leave scratches. A $25 set of sheets lasts 1-2 months for me in moderate use (I don't use them for all of my tools), so this isn't a cheap way to go, but diamond film is extremely fast and easily handles difficult steels that cause trouble for other methods.

2. Diamond pastes. The ones from reputable sources use the same monocrystalline diamonds as the films and the plates (this isn't true for the cheapo pastes on Amazon), but you provide a flat lapping substrate. Many people use cast iron or mild steel plates. You can also use MDF or a wood like Maple, but that slows the paste down a bit (due to particles receding into the substrate) and potentially compromises flatness. The economics are better than with diamond sheets and pastes can cut even faster, but they take more practice (there's an art to thinning them just enough, esp in the finer grades) and can be a bit of a hassle. As with any loose-grit medium contamination control is a big deal if you use pastes - you don't want to contaminate your fine-grit plates with larger particles. It isn't particularly difficult, but it takes vigilance.

FWIW I use a combination of waterstones and diamonds (both films and pastes). I use the diamonds on difficult high-alloy steels, and also when I'm lazy and don't want to soak anything.

[lowell holmes]

:) I have to ask, is this hobby woodworking or tool sharpening?:)

[Robin Frierson]

I used to use the shaptons, got a bunch of them still, but switched over to the Lee Valley Power sharpener for the bevels, and sandpaper on a grizzly granite plate for the backs. I get quicker and better results using this system, I think because the discs on the power sharpener and the granite plate are dead flat. Stones are constantly changing shape as you sharpen. If you use the stones flatten every few minutes,just a few swipes. I used the yellow DMT diamond plates. Be very careful on cross contamination of your grits, getting some 1000grit on you 8000 stone will negate the benefit. Many people have no running water and get by, but for me running water is best to keep the grit contamination thing under control. Many different ways to sharpen and they all work so just find what works best for you. I also find it helpful to have a magnifying light and some hand magnifers so you can see your work and check to see if the previous grit scratches are gone.

[Jim Koepke]

THE best way to get back to work quickly is be willing to stop and rehone before the edge gets too dull!

+1 on this.


I have to ask, is this hobby woodworking or tool sharpening?

If you want to do woodworking, you better come to enjoy sharpening. Without sharp tools you will likely not enjoy woodworking.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The main thing I was worrying about was the flattening process. Some say that the DMT's stones aren't always flat. I already have a strop and compound and plan to use the 1k, 5k, and 8k grit shapton stones. I assume that the eze lap is also suitable for flattening the back as well?

When things like chisels and plane blades need a serious back flattening, I start with sandpaper. After things are a bit more uniform, I switch to my water stones.

If that is what you are asking.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Reasons I love Lowell!


:) I have to ask, is this hobby woodworking or tool sharpening?:)


Well DUH, tool sharpening. Who has time to work wood with so much sharpening to do! :D

[lowell holmes]

Reasons I love Lowell!




Well DUH, tool sharpening. Who has time to work wood with so much sharpening to do! :D

In my mind the two go together, but after working out my sharpening procedures, there's not much to worry about . I personally use a combination of Joel Moskowitz's and Paul Sellers' techniques.

[Steven Herbin]

Awhile ago the Central Jersey WW Assoc. had Alan Turner as guest speaker. He emphasized Stropping, using stones only for defects in the edge. This really impressed me. So I stopped going to the stones unless there was a real defect in the edge. Every so often (very often), I go to the strop, get my mirror surface back and go on.

After watching Paul Sellers for a few years, I now use his method of freehand sharpening and stropping (albeit with Norton Waterstones). So instead of taking more time than necessary on sharpening and more on working wood with nice sharp tools. When the waterstones wear out, I'll let my grandchildren worry about replacing them.

Anyone want all my sharpening jigs, gauges, and all the other sharpening stuff I've accumulated?