Tilting shaper spindle 'value' on combo machine

[mark mcfarlane]

I'm putting together specs for my CU300 Classic 5-way combo machine for my retirement/hobby shop. A tilting shaper head is an ~$1,000 factory add-on option. Stock feeder with support is ~ $2,000 more. The MM feeder support actually looks pretty awesome, no lifting of the power head is required, just slide it out of the way.

I don't currently own any shaper tooling, and I don't expect investing a lot of money in tooling. The only thing I've used close to a shaper is a 1990ish Delta 'shaper' which was really just a router table with built in motor that was suitable for hacking out a few raised panel doors.

FWIW, one of my concerns in investing too much in the shaper workflow in a combo-machine is the intrinsic pain it will be to recalibrate the shaper whenever I need to use the slider for that one board I forgot to cut, or destroyed :). That pain is making me want to consider buying an inferior (perhaps 3HP Grizzly) shaper or build a router table or something like Festool's sliding router table, which initially looks expensive but once you price out all the pieces its not much more expensive than building your own sliding router table with lift, micro-adjustable fence,...

I don't see myself building windows or exterior doors, most furniture, but I may try my hand at one or two exterior doors with very simple profiles. I do have some trim for a remodel I might try to mill, but that will be A&C and a pretty simple profile.

Please share your experiences with a tilting shaper, how you use it, and anything else you'd like to share about shaper workflow on a combo machine.

Thanks,

[Andy Giddings]

Mark, I prefer the shaper on my C3 to my standalone Benchdog router table with their precision lift and 3.5HP Porter Cable router motor. The shaper hood on the C3 can be positioned in exactly the same place even after removal as there are two locating hardened steel pins that effectively lock the hood in place. The only adjustment you will need to make is height but even that can be made repeatable with the dial indicator in the hand wheel for the shaper height. My preference is down to the quality of the cut and the amount of material that can be removed - superior to the router table IMHO.

I would think the Minimax offers similar repeatability.

In terms of tilting spindle I can't comment as I don't have it. I can see that it would save on some tooling (for example, using a rebate head for cutting chamfers) and make some cuts safer as less of the cutter is exposed.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thank you Andy!

[Mark Wooden]

I have a stand alone tilting spindle shaper. Its very useful for making curved moldings, crowns, angled rabbetts etc..It also expands the use of other profile cutters by tilting them. But unless you forsee needing these features enough to justify the extra cost, it's not something you'll really miss. (Not to mention the extra dangers associated with tilting a cutter- look up "The Twelve Degrees of Freedom") An adjustable angle head and a few insert bodies and you'll be covered for just about anything.

[Mel Fulks]

The tilt spindle is nice for things like matching raised panel profiles on old work. Especially since they typically don't want a flat cut where they will be in groove. Beyond that I have not found it real useful. Only down side I've seen is if more than one operator uses the machine you have to check spindle for perfect vertical as the angle marks are most times not enough for perfect.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have a Hammer B3 Winner which has the tilting spindle shaper.

Tilting spindles save you a lot of money in tooling, especially if you want to make bevels, or glue joints.

A lock mitre cutter is several hundred dollars, yet with a tilting spindle you can use the $30 glue joint set of knives instead.

Same for bevels, no expensive adjustable angle cutter, just your rebate cutter and a tilted spindle.

I also use mine with saw blades for splines or raising fields on panels............Regards, Rod.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I had a tilting shaper with a feeder before my CU300. Never tilted since and I've learned to feed manually just fine without.

[Jared Sankovich]

I use the tilt all the time. It makes something as simple as a straight rabbeting head much more versatile.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/jar944/rps20160518_184433_906_zps9a8diqzg.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jar944/media/rps20160518_184433_906_zps9a8diqzg.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/jar944/rps20160518_184255_973_zpse5szdlkk.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jar944/media/rps20160518_184255_973_zpse5szdlkk.jpg.html)

[mark mcfarlane]

... An adjustable angle head and a few insert bodies and you'll be covered for just about anything.

Thanks Mark. I wasn't aware of variable angle heads. Do you mean something like this: http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/shaper-cutter/Universal-Swivel-Vari-Angle-Cutterhead.

It is very cool, but the cost of that specific head ($1,136) exceeds the cost to upgrade the shaper to a tilting spindle, and it's just a rebate profile. The cost of shaper tooling is one of those things that kind of turns me off on the shaper for a hobby shop. $50 for a good router bit or $300 for the same function in a shaper. Obviously for larger profiles the shaper makes sense, but if you only plan to use a profile for one piece of furniture,...

I guess need to study up more to find a reasonably priced 1 1/4" insert head, or buy the optional 3/4" spindle. I'll start a separate thread for that.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mark, a 40mm Euroblock head with chip limiters is what I would recommend if you're machining solid wood.

Knives and limiters are available from many sources, in line with router bit prices or less, with well over 100 profiles.

I would also recommend something like a 125 X 50mm carbide rebate head and an adjustable groover (since I also have a 30mm spindle I can use my dado cutter for that).

Those three items will take care of most of your needs...........Rod.

[Jared Sankovich]

The cost of shaper tooling is one of those things that kind of turns me off on the shaper for a hobby shop. $50 for a good router bit or $300 for the same function in a shaper. Obviously for larger profiles the shaper makes sense, but if you only plan to use a profile for one piece of furniture,...

I guess need to study up more to find a reasonably priced 1 1/4" insert head, or buy the optional 3/4" spindle. I'll start a separate thread for that.

As already stated a euro block head is very inexpensive and the knives are as little as $14 per set.

I also wouldn't get the 3/4 spindle unless you already had 3/4 tooling.

For reference here is the amana profile head I have:
http://ballewsaw.com/amana-61248-steel-shaper-120mm-1-1-4-bore.html

You can get the 100mm aluminum version for $108. And cmt knives for $14 http://www.routerbitworld.com/Insert-Shaper-System-s/967.htm. That combination will produce a glass smooth finish that a router bit will never match, just from the geometry improvement alone. It will also cost a fraction of a good router bit.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Rod and Jared for the helpful tips. FYI, The stock spindle on the MM combo shaper sold in the USA is 1.25". Rod, do you have a specific recommendation for a Euroblock head with limiters?

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Rod and Jared for the helpful tips. FYI, The stock spindle on the MM combo shaper sold in the USA is 1.25". Rod, do you have a specific recommendation for a Euroblock head with limiters?

Hi Mark, does the machine have changeable spindles? Just curious as most of the tooling in the world is metric, so I often buy 30mm tooling when it's on sale, often much less expensive than 1.25" tooling.

Use any Euroblock, just make sure to get a MAN rated head for safety when hand feeding. Here's a link to one sold by Felder.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/Universal-Safety-Cutterhead.html

There are many other vendors of the same product..........Rod.

[mark mcfarlane]

Hi Mark, does the machine have changeable spindles? Just curious as most of the tooling in the world is metric, so I often buy 30mm tooling when it's on sale, often much less expensive than 1.25" tooling.....

Yes, replacement spindles are available, but not cheap. I think it was ~ $400 for a 3/4" spindle. which matches a lot of Grizzly's inexpensive tooling.

Felder looks like its $150 for an empty safety (limiter) head and $338 for a 6-profile starter set : http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/SET-Offer-Universal-Safety-Cutter-Head-oxid.html.

Do most of the vendors that sell 40mm knives also sell the limiters?
Are the bolt patterns standard on all safety heads/knives/limiters or do you get stuck in a 1 vendor system?

[Jared Sankovich]

Most of the US vendors do not sell limiters. Though the knives are interchangeable on all the heads regardless of brand. The hole spacing is standardized on the heads

[mark mcfarlane]

Most of the US vendors do not sell limiters. Though the knives are interchangeable on all the heads regardless of brand. The hole spacing is standardized on the heads

Thanks Jared.

[Erik Loza]

Most of the US vendors do not sell limiters.

If thats a concern, I can point owners to several US vendors who sell the rebate-style heads with limiters.

Shaper tooling is one of those things where unless you know specifically what you are looking for, it can be challenging to find what you want. But the vendors are out there.

Erik

[Jared Sankovich]

If thats a concern, I can point owners to several US vendors who sell the rebate-style heads with limiters.

Shaper tooling is one of those things where unless you know specifically what you are looking for, it can be challenging to find what you want. But the vendors are out there.

Erik

Sorry I was specifically referring to the 40mm euro block "profile" heads. *most* of the US vendors do not sell heads that accept limiters nor do they sell knife sets with limiters even as a option. Amana and cmt being the most easily found in my experience.

All the rebate heads I've seen are limited and man rated.

[John Lankers]

Erik, does the MM come with a forward or rearward tilting shaper spindle, I find the forward tilting setup offered by some mfg's awkward and in some regard dangerous when it limits the use of a power feeder.

[Erik Loza]

John: Rearward tilting.

Erik

[John Lankers]

Thanks Erik

[James Baker SD]

I ordered an insert cutter head designed for limiters from Felder with my KF700. I get knife and limiter sets from a Canadian company. Big selection. Shipping to the U.S. is no problem for them.

[John Lankers]

I ordered an insert cutter head designed for limiters from Felder with my KF700. I get knife and limiter sets from a Canadian company. Big selection. Shipping to the U.S. is no problem for them.

Most likely Dimar http://dimar-canada.com/

[Mark Wooden]

Thanks Mark. I wasn't aware of variable angle heads. Do you mean something like this: http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/shaper-cutter/Universal-Swivel-Vari-Angle-Cutterhead.

It is very cool, but the cost of that specific head ($1,136) exceeds the cost to upgrade the shaper to a tilting spindle, and it's just a rebate profile. The cost of shaper tooling is one of those things that kind of turns me off on the shaper for a hobby shop. $50 for a good router bit or $300 for the same function in a shaper. Obviously for larger profiles the shaper makes sense, but if you only plan to use a profile for one piece of furniture,...

I guess need to study up more to find a reasonably priced 1 1/4" insert head, or buy the optional 3/4" spindle. I'll start a separate thread for that.

The angle head made by Charles GC Schmidt - http://www.cggschmidt.com/store/adjustable_angle_cutter.php - is half that cost. A good corrugated knife head is also a good investment as it will keep your tooling cost down.

But again, it depends on what you intend to do. Having a stand alone shaper will free up your slider/combo.

[Andy Giddings]

There is an adjustable angle head cheaper than the Schmidt head from Hammer/Felder as long as you have a 30mm spindle ($264). Mark, I would recommend 30mm as others have said as it opens up the purchase of Euro cutters.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks James, and John, and Mark, and Andy.

It is somewhat surprising (to me) that Euro standard sized cutters would be less expensive than US sizes. My many UK and European friends always complain how much cheaper everything is in the USA, and 30mm is close to 1.25", so I wouldn't think there would be that much more steel or carbide in 1.25 cutters. I'm not doubting the fact, just pleasantly surprised. Perhaps its an availability thing (number of suppliers).

I've also read that Felder offers very good sales on shaper tooling, anyone know how to sign up for such notices if you are not a Felder owner?

Thanks again everyone for the quick education. I obviously need to read a shaper book...

[Andy Giddings]

Mark, just go to the Felder e shop, create an account (no need to buy anything) and there should be a selection box to receive email about offers and so on. In terms of shaper books, there only seem to be a couple - one by Lonnie Bird and another from the UK called Spindle Moulder Handbook. I have the latter and, although it goes into a lot of technical detail about cutter geometry and materials, the sections on safety, straight/curved work and jigs are worth the cost of the book

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark, just go to the Felder e shop, create an account (no need to buy anything) and there should be a selection box to receive email about offers and so on. In terms of shaper books, there only seem to be a couple - one by Lonnie Bird and another from the UK called Spindle Moulder Handbook. I have the latter and, although it goes into a lot of technical detail about cutter geometry and materials, the sections on safety, straight/curved work and jigs are worth the cost of the book

Thanks Andy, I just registered and signed up for the newsletter. I'll order the book(s) when I get back to the States in November. I should probably spend less time here and more time reading books.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks James, and John, and Mark, and Andy.

It is somewhat surprising (to me) that Euro standard sized cutters would be less expensive than US sizes. My many UK and European friends always complain how much cheaper everything is in the USA, and 30mm is close to 1.25", so I wouldn't think there would be that much more steel or carbide in 1.25 cutters. I'm not doubting the fact, just pleasantly surprised. Perhaps its an availability thing (number of suppliers).

I've also read that Felder offers very good sales on shaper tooling, anyone know how to sign up for such notices if you are not a Felder owner?

Thanks again everyone for the quick education. I obviously need to read a shaper book...

Hi Mark, when Felder offer tooling sales, it's normally a world wide event. Almost everyone is metric, so the metric bore cutters are less expensive, the 30mm spindle also accepts the sanding drums.

As Andy indicated The Spindle Molder Handbook by Stephenson is the only up to date book I've found, the others are decades out of date.

You can buy the knives and limiters from many suppliers.............Regards, Rod.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Rod, I appreciate your time.