CU300 or C3-31

[Jeff Finazzo]

I have decided to pull the trigger on a combo machine and narrowed my choice between the Minimax CU300 or the Hammer C3-31. I wanted to see if anyone has recently been through the same decision process and if so what way the went and why.

My thoughts so far from all the posts and reviews I've read is the Minimax is a bit more robust and heavy duty. I've heard the Hammer is more comparable to the Minimax Lab300. Minimax is more expensive. Hammer has better value with the great pricing on the anniversary package. I've seen lots of positive reviews on the Hammer.

I'm a serious hobbiest so it won't be in a professional shop. But do want this to be a 20 plus year tool.

Amy words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

[Joe Jensen]

I have a Felder 700 series saw / shaper so I can't comment on the two options you are considering. What I will say is that I got opinions and read all I could on the forums for a few months before I bought and I talked with Felder and SCMI and got consistent advice on a few things.
1) Spend once, get the options you want and cry once. Many pointed out that most used machines are shorter on features because owners ordered a more stripped machine first and then later upgraded to one with the features they wanted all along. I spec'd mine pretty well but wish I had sprung for the digital fence stops and rip fence. I can easily live without but adding after the fact is either way more expensive for factory, or a compromise if you build your own.
2) Get a slider that can cut an 8 foot panel with room for clamps on the ends if you use sheet goods. This one was easy for me as I knew I wanted to cut sheets length wise. Lots of owners who regretted getting a shorter one first.
3) Service and support are key. I've had great support from Felder and I also own a 1970s SCMI jointer and I got some fantastic and quick help over the phone on how to tear it down. Called the US sales office and they said one field service tech who was around in the 70s would know and they would have him call me. Literally a few minutes later he called and it turns out he didn't know but he knew another tech who would for sure know. Sure enough within a few minutes Italian tech #2 called and knew exactly what I needed. BTW, both tech has really Italian names like Guido and Giuseppe :)
- I chose to upgrade to power raise/lower for the shaper and saw because with a combo there would certainly be times I would have to tear down a shaper setup to cut something. this was a good call.
- I got variable speed, love it, especially for the router spindle.
- I chose a slider that's about 9 ft long
- I chose the wider crosscut carriage, good call
- I upgraded to an Aigner shaper fence, expensive but I would do it again.
- I got a 1 1/4" spindle because there are tons of used but good 1 1/4" shaper cutters on ebay. I also go a high speed router spindle, with my machine I can run up to 22,000 RPM.
- I have added air clamps (Mac's Clamps) and they made the machine so much easier to use.
- I ordered a ripping shoe and I've never put it on the saw.
- I ordered an eccentric clamp and I hate it, the wood shifts when I clamp
- research parallel cutting guides on the web, Brian Lamb makes a nice one. With this you can get amazingly accurate rips.
- I got a micro adjust rip fence, good add.
- I got a remote start on the end of the slider, very convenient. I don't know if SMCI offers that.
- I wanted Dado capability. SCMI has that on one line but not the others.

The Felder owners group is a yahoo forum that has tons of advice on how to use a euro slider.

[mark mcfarlane]

I'm in the same position as you Jeff. FWIW, the Hammers have a lot of extra cost add-ons that are included standard in the CU300, so you do need to do a little work to price apples to apples, and then to determine if you want the 'free' bundled stuff on the CU300, such as the mortiser, mobility kit, scoring unit, second short crosscut fence,... So fully spec out both machines before doing the price comparison.

Conceptually, I really like the Tersa knife system on the CU300.

One of the factors that is tipping me towards the CU300 is the persistently excellent and practical pre-sales support I've received from Erik Loza. I expect Erik will still be helping me out after the purchase. He's tireless, and has been working with me for about a year, which shows great patience. It's hard not to like the guy. His daily presence here is a testament. The only reason I haven't bought the CU300 yet is my building won't be ready for ~ 6 more months.

[Andy Giddings]

I've had my C3-31 Comfort for a few weeks now. In short, I'm very happy and the machine has met or exceeded my expectations in terms of quality, accuracy and ease of use. Changing from one tool to another is quick and straightforward. The deciding factor for me was the substantial discount available right now on the C3 due to the anniversary year.

Moving from a cabinet saw to a slider has some significant differences in methods of work, but even after a few weeks of use it feels safer and easier to use.

I looked at both brands and, like Joe and Mark commented above, spent a lot of time researching and reading owners opinions. My conclusion is you can't go wrong with either brand - which of course makes it a tough choice

[Jim Becker]

I agree that both are excellent choices. I'm a MiniMax guy since that's the direction I went long ago and the people like Erik and Sam have treated me very well over the years. No regrets on my purchases. I can't speak to the CU300 specifically since I went slider + J/P based on my shop's physical constraints, but I've seen them up close and personal a number of times and know they are of the same excellent nature as my own choices. And yes, they are "well equipped" standard from the factory. I've also been around a number of Felder/Hammer machines and they are also great tools.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Jeff,

I have B3+A331. Very happy about the purchase. They are well built, joy to use, and worth every penny.

Having said that we, seasoned hobbyists, have already learned, often in a hard way, that "you get what you pay for."
These machines are something we'd use more than 10 years and the time spent for hobby should be something very pleasing.
I don't think you can't go wrong either way. I just feel it is usually a good idea to stretch your budget little bit more than your initial plan for something you'd use a long time.

For me, B3+A331 was QUITE a stretch but now I'm very happy with my decision. If I had more $, I'd have gone for a CU300 (heavier) or a Felder (heavier and bells and whistles).

My suggestion is to go for an outrigger, if you have a enough space.
For the slider, I chose 78", which doesn't take as much space as I thought. I haven't encountered a situation when this length is not enough.
I use sheets only occasionally and do the initial cutting at the purchase as my car can't carry the full sheet anyway.

Oh, also, I would factor in the proximity to the service centers or personal connections. These companies have much more personal relationships with customers. After few years of use, you can ask service visits. You may order tooling and equipment. You may have some issues, or want to ask how to adjust the alignments. I live in Maryland and Felder is only 1.5 hours away. I benefited it a lot right from the delivery to a recent service visit. Their employees have relatives live nearby. Once you can develop personal relationships, things can go only better. Just my 2 cents.

[Jamie Buxton]

I notice that Felder is currently advertising a sale price on a C331 in the Deals & Discounts section of SMC.

[Jeff Finazzo]

Thanks for the feedback. Some great information. I like those Lamb parallel cutting guides. I have wondered how you get consistent accurate and reportable rips with a slider. Seems like a great solution.
Jamie. What sale on the C331 did you see? Can you provide a link?
I think I'm leaning towards a CU300 but the only thing that's holding me back is I do think it's more expensive. Even with options considered. With the Hammer anniversary package it's about $1,500 less then the CU300. And I'm pretty sure the asessories are fairly comparable.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Happy CU300 owner here. Almost 10 years now.

These type of machines are sold by the pound. (heavier is better)

[Jeff Finazzo]

Actually scratch my last post. I took a closer look and the Minimax is closer to $2,200 more. I am leaning toward the Minimax but that just is a lot of dough! Especially if the machines are comparable.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

If the 2 grand difference is the longer slider with outrigger it's worth every penny. Mistake without it.

[Jamie Buxton]

...
Jamie. What sale on the C331 did you see? Can you provide a link?
....


In my post I said "in the Deals & Discounts section of SMC". SMC is SawMill Creek -- this forum.

[Erik Loza]

...I took a closer look and the Minimax is closer to $2,200 more...


..These type of machines are sold by the pound. (heavier is better)

I obviously can't give you an unbiased answer but will add a few things for your (or anyone's) consideration..

1.) IWF pricing is happening soon. True that SCM doesn't do a big internet promo like some other vendors do but I've been getting guys good deals recently. Call your Minimax rep and ask them. We want a customer's business as much as the next guy.

2.) To Mike's point, the CU300 is the heaviest and most robust machine in its class. Especially after the 2012 re-design. I've seen all the competitors. Once you put your hands on the the CU300 and then any of the others, it's evident. The only time this is not the case is if someone is comparing two different levels of combo machine, which is a different conversation.

3.) SCM has a Southern California warehouse now and stocks machines there. This has really helped out my west cost customers from the freight cost side of things.

Also, here is my 2-cents regarding the purchase of combo machinery in general. Feel free to accept or reject as you wish: I would not get too wrapped up in add-ons on the front end. Reason being that you don't know what you don't know until you actually take possession of the machine and start using it but more importantly, it would be a bummer to pay the the same price for two diffrent machines and have one be smaller/lighter/less powerful than the next, because your money really went to add-ons rather than actual guts. A free spindle, for example, does not make the machine heavier, more powerful, or cut better. Focus on the actual machine performance rather than value-added accessories that you can always buy later if you really decide you need them. Just my 2-cents and best of luck in your search.

Erik

[Jerry Compton]

Hello Andy,
Just joined the forum and am new to posting.
I ordered my c3 31 and expect it around Mid December.
I am concerned about getting it off the pallet and onto the floor. I would appreciate any advice and hope we can discuss the machines set up and use.
Thank you

[James Zhu]

Hello Andy,
Just joined the forum and am new to posting.
I ordered my c3 31 and expect it around Mid December.
I am concerned about getting it off the pallet and onto the floor. I would appreciate any advice and hope we can discuss the machines set up and use.
Thank you

That is easy. Get a narrow pallet jack, build a ramp using 2x4 or 2x6 and OSB. Attach the ramp (using screw) to the pallet, then use the pallet jack to get machine off the pallet.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I know this thread is a bit old and the OP may have made a decision by now, but I also recently went through this exact same decision, and one of the things that almost swayed my decision was the "CU300 is heavier" argument. Just to set the record straight (since several posters upthread repeated that argument): the CU300 is heavier because it comes with the mortiser as a standard feature, while it's an add-on for the C3-31. If you compare the datasheet listed weights for the machines equipped with the mortiser, they weigh the same.

While the mortiser is a nice feature, the CU300 is also more expensive. For the price difference, I could buy a Domino and vac, which is probably a more useful.

[Jerry Compton]

Thank you, I was concerned if there was room under the machine to slide the pallet jack. I will know soon enough. Thanks again

[Jim Becker]

Thank you, I was concerned if there was room under the machine to slide the pallet jack. I will know soon enough. Thanks again
Most machines of this ilk are designed to be able to be moved with a pallet jack or fork truck. A narrow spacing, however is usually needed.

[Erik Loza]

I know this thread is a bit old and the OP may have made a decision by now, but I also recently went through this exact same decision, and one of the things that almost swayed my decision was the "CU300 is heavier" argument. Just to set the record straight (since several posters upthread repeated that argument): the CU300 is heavier because it comes with the mortiser as a standard feature, while it's an add-on for the C3-31. If you compare the datasheet listed weights for the machines equipped with the mortiser, they weigh the same.

I don't want to argue but will say this, since I've seen them both in person. There is no way a Hammer C3-31 is heavier than a CU300 Classic. I realize that literature may indicate that but I've stood right in from of both units (obviously, I know the CU300 like the back of my hand) and it is clearly obvious that the Hammer is a lighter machine. All you have to do is move the sliding table, lift the jointer tables, etc. I don't want to accuse any manufacturer of fudging the numbers but will say that the crated weight is clearly stamped on the side of every CU300 crate. I'm out of the industry now, so it doesn't matter to me what someone buys but there is no way a C3-31 weighs the same as a CU300. All you have to do is see them in person and it's immediately obvious. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[Dan Friedrichs]

Perhaps the build quality is heavier - I have no idea. But I doubt a major european manufacturer is fudging the weight on their lowest-end machines just to make them look more substantial...

[Erik Loza]

The whole weight thing is a grey area, SCM Group included. This is particularly the case with combo machines, since there are so many options. For example, the exact same CU300 will weigh more if it has 1-phase motors. I would guess 20lbs. more than the three-phase variant but it's not realistic to list out a whole range or weights based on every possible configuration, so mfrs. put a weight based on "average equipment packages". Here is the tricky part: If someone gives you a certain weight, ask your sales guy exactly how that machine is configured. I would bet money he won't know. And how could he? Those weights are coming out of Europe, who may or may not be basing the weight on a build that is what you, the customer, ordered. I only know what a CU300 Classic weights because I brought them in one way and I saw the crated weights on the bills of lading. Otherwise, you are getting a ballpark figure that is probably on the generous side. Unlike all the safety requirements a machine has to have to be sold in the EU, there is no clause for "honesty in weight". In other words, a manufacturer can put whatever they want on there and that is not breaking any rules. For example, there was a bandsaw competitor for Minimax that, on paper, claimed their machine weight was basically identical to the MM16. Yet, any person who had seen both machines in person could clearly see that the Centauro (MM16) had substantially more metal on it than the other unit. So, there was obviously no way it could be the same weight as the Centauro yet all the sales literature for years was claiming that.

My advice to customers is to not focus on weight. That's a figure that can be manipulated, just like snazzy photos or videos, to make any machine look the way the seller wants. Instead, customers need to focus on design and build quality. That's where your money ought to be going. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[Nick Dimov]

Been watching videos of these machines online. Thinking I may have to order one.