Flat Wood Working vs. Turning

[Rich Riddle]

At an art show in Anacortes, Washington a group of turners were letting "normal" folks try out turning and a lathe. They asked if I wanted to turn. I don't even use the old Walker Turner lathe in the shop. Then one said, "Oh, you're one of those flat wood guys." It was quite humorous though he seemed to be thinking it was an insult and apologized. Is turning more challenging in your opinion?

[Doug Hepler]

Rich,

No, I do not think that turning is necessarily more difficult than flat work, but it is different. It will feel more difficult if you have achieved a certain level of confidence and skill as a flat woodworker. Learning to turn feels like going back to square one. This was my case. I was an accomplished furniture maker "flat wood guy" before I started turning, except for turning table legs.

I find that turning is very different than flat work in many ways, especially because you are shaping wood freehand, so to speak. When you are turning there is no line to cut to, although you can make a template to help you see when you have removed enough wood. It's harder, say, to get four matching round table legs than four matching tapered legs or cabriole legs. Turning and sharpening turning tools is more balletic than sharpening flat chisels and plane irons.

Now I am somewhat accomplished as a turner although my work mainly depends on my flat wood skills rather than my skill at the lathe per se. I do segmented work (segments and staves) and bowl from a board, which require joinery skill. So, I distract the eye from seeing my turning mistakes with interesting designs. I can get the finished surface I want much more frequently in flat work than with my turned work. I'm still learning. One mistake can put a helluva gouge on a turning, in a heartbeat.

Tool presentation, especially of skew chisels, is 100% skill. It's probably harder to learn to turn with a skew than to learn how to use a plane correctly. A catch feels much more dramatic on a lathe than on a flat surface, but both cause do-overs. But lots of people never touch a skew when they are turning. They turn with scrapers, which is much easier to learn. I'll bet those demonstrators were selling a scraper of some kind.

So a long answer to what was probably as casual question. Just my two cents. If you want to learn how to turn, start with spindle tuning and go for it. Its another slippery slope but its fun to learn new skills.

Doug

[John K Jordan]

At an art show in Anacortes, Washington a group of turners were letting "normal" folks try out turning and a lathe. They asked if I wanted to turn. I don't even use the old Walker Turner lathe in the shop. Then one said, "Oh, you're one of those flat wood guys." It was quite humorous though he seemed to be thinking it was an insult and apologized. Is turning more challenging in your opinion?

I think it is impossible to generalize and compare the two. I've done a little of both and my shop is set up for both (although I enjoy turning more). Both "flat" and "round" can encompass everything from trivial to amazing, requiring skills from beginner to master level. The thing that makes one "side" form a simplified opinion of the other is mostly ignorance from lack of experience.

I was teaching spindle turning to one woodworker with no lathe experience when he said in frustration "this is a LOT harder than I ever imagined it would be!" I suspect the typical turner with no flat experience would say the same thing after trying to make a board flat with a hand plane!

Turning certainly is far quicker than building fine furniture. Think how long it takes to make one piece! A few years ago someone on a turning forum commented they had a show that weekend and needed to make a few more pieces the day before. The flat wood guys got a kick out of that. :)

JKJ

[Rick Fisher]

I wouldn't say turning is harder, its a skill not unlike all woodworking. Cutting a straight line with a handsaw is a learned skill. Once you have it, its not really a big deal. Turning is just another facet of that ..

[Brad Barnhart]

Turning is a learned skill, like any other part of woodworking. It comes down to what you want to turn, & how willing you are to learn it, then proceed with it. I'm a scroll sawyer by choice, I reckon, but my shop is set up to do about anything I care to do. I've been studyin' the lathe for a little over a year now, & am learning. My plans are to incorporate the lathe in with some of my scroll projects. So far, its been workin' perty well. I don't own all the fancy high dollar sharpening jigs yet. I'm learnin' to sharpen freehand. I'm getting better, but still have a lot to learn, & a few more lathe tools to invest in. Learning on my own, & askin' a few questions here has kept me goin' in the right direction. But to compare flat work to lathe work isn't even a fair comparison. IMO. There's a learning curve on them both. You just have to figure out what works for best for you.

[Wayne Lomman]

You can't split wood working into turning and flat work. That was just plain ordinary prejudice and ignorance. All woodworking is multi-dimensional. Aaaargh!

[Geoff Crimmins]

I think turning is one area of woodworking that is difficult to teach yourself, and where a some hands-on instruction in beneficial. For me, I was able to read how to use a table saw and a planer, and then use the tools with no problems. I then read a book about turning, went out to the lathe, and couldn't figure out why I was getting so many catches. I finally had to track down a local turner to teach me how to do it right. On the flip side, I had been focusing on turning for a couple years when I decided to make a medicine cabinet for the bathroom. I drilled all of the holes for shelf pins on the wrong side of one of the boards. Working with flat wood definitely requires more focus on which piece goes where, where to cut the mortises, and that sort of thing. So I think both types of woodworking have their own, different challenges. I don't think the turner you were talking to meant any offense or was implying that turning was easier or more difficult than working with flat wood. I think he was just joking about the fact that sometimes turners "forget" that flat boards exist and some people like working with them. :)

[Jim Becker]

Flatwork and turning do go hand-in-hand in many situations and each has both shared and divergent skill sets. I enjoy both, although I haven't actually used my lathe in some time now just due to the nature of the projects I've had time for. I will say that turning can be "mesmerizing" just due to it's nature and encourage anyone to give it a whirl, pardon the expression. :D

Jim
Community Member

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If you have interest in turning and want to learn more, we have a great turning discussion area here at SMC where all turning subjects end up for organizational purposes.

Jim
Forum Moderator

[Rich Engelhardt]

Is turning more challenging in your opinion?I'll let you be the judge here....

IMHO, any goof with the tools and a set of plans and the time and money and room to work can churn out "flat work".
99% of that is monkey see/monkey do. Well, maybe 90%.

Selecting the right wood and things like bookmatching doors fall into that 10% that's not monkey see/monkey do...


This however - takes a talent few people have - or will ever have - and one that can't be learned, it has to be there from birth.

(That's not my work, it's the work of my ex-brother in law. He's got an enormous talent for all things wood related)

[Steve Schoene]

Well, back in the days when all wood working was hand work--like in the 18th century, the professions of woodworking were clearly divided into turners and joiners and cabinet makers. Carving was also often treated as a separate discipline with carved work farmed out by the cabinet makers who created the carcasses.

[Art Mann]

About the only things I can think of that are common to turning and other woodworking is that you are working with a carefully chosen piece of wood (though not necessarily the same) and you are using some of the same types of finishing materials. It isn't very meaningful to me to compare such hugely different things. The same can be said of power tool woodworking and hand tool woodworking, although, in this case, the end result may be similar.

[Tim McCarthy]

I live in Oak Harbor, WA and I'm a "flat work guy". My best friend is a turner. The big difference that I notice is in finishing. I've told him that having the piece spinning in front of you and being able to finish that way is "almost like cheating".

[Mike Henderson]

I did some turning early in my woodworking career, and still do turning for furniture. The problem I encountered with turning things like bowls is that there isn't much use for them. Pretty soon you have bowls all over the house and your friends run away when they see one in your hands - for fear you'll try to give them another one.

I think I got pretty good at turning. It's just that I couldn't do anything with what I made. I think people who enjoy turning, enjoy turning. That is, they enjoy the process and don't much care about the finished product.

The reason I enjoy furniture is that I'm making something useful, something that will serve a need for generations to come.

Mike

[Turning pens would be perhaps the worse thing for me. They're extremely easy to do - they don't take any real turning talent - and there's not much originality that you can add during the turning phase. Some people turn thousands of them. For me, that's too much like working on an assembly line doing the same task over and over.]

[Rick Fisher]

Woodworking includes joinery, finishing and planning. It can be as simple or as complicated as you choose. Turning is the same. You can turn wine bottle stoppers or hollow out segmented bowls where one catch means garbage ...

[Wayne Lomman]

As already noted above, all woodworking is multi-dimensional. I would go further and point out that you are not on the right road to good woodworking until you can think and design in 3 dimensions simultaneously. The lathe, saws, spindle moulder, router, planer, thicknesser etc etc are all equally crucial in creating a finished piece. This discussion is somewhat like arguing over whether the guitarist is better than the vocalist in a band. You needed both Robert Plant and Jimmy Page in Led Zeppelin (and John Paul Jones and John Bonham). Cheers

[Jim Finn]

I have a lathe that is covered in dust under my bench. Those who turn a lot love it. I do not. The limitation of "everything is round" is the reason I no longer do much turning. Only turn on occasion. I think that turning is very attractive to many because you get to see a lot of chips flying and use up a lot of wood. Nothing wrong with that , just not my thing.....lately.

[John K Jordan]

...The limitation of "everything is round" is the reason I no longer do much turning. Only turn on occasion. I think that turning is very attractive to many because you get to see a lot of chips flying and use up a lot of wood....

Yikes, there are new horizons out there for you! The "everything is round" is only for some. We turn square and three-cornered things, off axis, multi-axis, inside-out, turnings that are mostly carved, turnings to enhance flat work. One guy turned a wooden trumpet, another a french horn - yes the pieces are round but the assembly is not. Some of the things creative people do leave even experienced turners scratching their heads with "how in the world..."

There are in fact those who just love to make shavings from green wood and sometimes the result shows it. This type of turning is so easy it sometimes attracts beginners who never do anything else. Some of us prefer intricate things made from dry wood that require a different set of skills.

I'm late leaving for a kindergarten class but I, or someone else, could post some interesting pictures later.

JKJ

[Cody Colston]

I went through the turning phase for a few years. It's fun and fairly easy to learn the rudimentary aspects. I turned many bowls, hollow forms, chess pieces, etc. Now, I usually only turn when my flat work demands it.

I think the biggest attraction to turning was that every old fart with a lathe could fancy himself an artist. :D

[Cary Falk]

I turn things when needed for flatwork. I have turned a few decorative bowls and platters, but one only has so much room for them. I went through a pen turning phase. The appeal of turning(for me at least for me) would be instant gratification of finished projects and less machines crowding up my garage.

[John K Jordan]

I went through the turning phase for a few years. ...I think the biggest attraction to turning was that every old fart with a lathe could fancy himself an artist. :D

Yes, there are a lot of old farts out there. Some do consider themselves "artists", some turn for profit, some for relaxation and stress relief. I don't think there is one "biggest" attraction. I do know the attraction for some is limited space since a basic woodturning shop can fit into a small space.

I prefer turning functional things for the farm (tool handles, etc), house, wedding and other gifts, and many things for kids. Most of it is for fun but I do accidentally make a few thousand $ on occasion. I personally don't have a lot of time to turn - I think I spend more time teaching, both kids and oldsters. I suspect many on the "flat" side also volunteer their time and share their skills like this.

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An incredible outlet for turning skills is in programs like the Beads of Courage. Children with serious illnesses such as cancer get a bead for each treatment, blood transfusion, etc. Woodturners made many hundreds of lidded bowls/boxes each year for the kids to store their beads and tell their stories. (Sadly, some of these BOC boxes have been used for the remains of kids who didn't survive.) This is a great opportunity to do something useful with your skils. The boxes can be rectangular as well so even the "flat" side can participate. I suspect many of the woodworkers on SMC are making these. If not, consider give it a try! I did a few so far this year:

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Even Old Farts with a jointer and table saw can make these. Don't even have to be an artist. Check it out: http://www.beadsofcourage.org/

Our turning club and others also make Christmas ornaments to benefit various hospitals. The ornaments from our club alone brought over $4000 for the local chiildren's hospital last Christmas. I think non-woodturners could participate in this too somehow.

JKJ

[John Sincerbeaux]

90% of my "flat" work is making things "round"
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[Mike Henderson]

90% of my "flat" work is making things "round"
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Beautiful work, John.

Mike

[John Sincerbeaux]

Thanks Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

Rich, I don't think it's more challenging, just different.

I belonged to a wood turning club for years, some of the members were true artists, experimenting with the limits and forms of the work. Their work was spectacular.

Me, I'm a plodder that makes round things for my flat work, such as furniture components, tool handles etc.

I occasionally make bowls etc. I like turning bowls because if I screw it up the bowl is just a bit different shape than originally envisioned, simply artistic license.

When I screw up a piece of furniture, no amount of "artistic license" hides the fact that the drawer is the wrong size and doesn't fit.

I think it's just different ways of looking at things...................Rod.

[Rich Riddle]

Rod,

I don't know if I told you when we met, but dad is a professional artist. He says, "the real test of an artist lies in his ability to hide his errors." He's an engraver and sculptor.

[Prashun Patel]

It's an interesting but moot discussion. What's right and easier and more appropriate is different for you and me and these opinions are all respectfully interesting but ultimately opinions and irrelevant with how you choose to spend your time.

Irrelevantly, for my part I appreciate both as art and requiring skill. Green wood turning requires some pretty challenging aesthetic choices and techniques for drying. It allows me to take another mans scraps and turn it into something the non turner cannot imagine.

Flat and round are apples and oranges and I wouldn't trade either or judge either as requiring more or less skill.

[Jerry Wright]

Turners who think flat work is boring, haven't done much of it and flat boarders who think turning is simple haven't tried it. Try both on a fairly deep project and mutual respect will be developed quickly.

[Tom Giacomo]

I've done turning and I've done flat work and turning is more fun.

[Paul Girouard]

Turners who think flat work is boring, haven't done much of it and flat boarders who think turning is simple haven't tried it. Try both on a fairly deep project and mutual respect will be developed quickly.


Well said. I do so little turning that about the time I feel comfortable doing the turning the projects done. So the next time I do some turning the learning curve starts again.

And that's on simpler turning , the walnut root the guy on the turners section just did is beyond my mission capability!!! But it's sure cool some guys can do work like that!!

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod,

I don't know if I told you when we met, but dad is a professional artist. He says, "the real test of an artist lies in his ability to hide his errors." He's an engraver and sculptor.
Hi Rich, no you didn't.

That's what my father in law says about cabinet makers as opposed to amateurs..............Regards, Rod.

[John K Jordan]

Rod, I don't know if I told you when we met, but dad is a professional artist. He says, "the real test of an artist lies in his ability to hide his errors." He's an engraver and sculptor.


Reminds me of my favorite saying about experts: An expert is one who makes all his mistakes in private. I don't qualify since I make all mine right out in the open. Then I post them on Facebook. Come visit and I'll show you my Box O' Shame for failed woodturnings.

About artists, the best definition of "artist" is someone who makes art. It says nothing about the execution, design, or craftsmanship of the artwork. Or what anyone else in the world thinks about or values it!

I actually made a living creating what could be called specialized art for my last 15 years before retirement. I'm still not sure how I managed that but the pay was good.

JKJ

[Rich Riddle]

John,

Dad has been an artist since he left the United States Marine Corps 65 years ago and acts extremely happy that he's been able to earn a living in art. I cannot draw a straight line. I suppose before dad gets too old that I ought to set up the Walker Turner lathe I restored some years ago and have him teach me how to use it.

We visit your area at least once a year, always near Thanksgiving time. Usually stay out in a town called Newport, Tennessee in a place that overlooks the mountains.

[John K Jordan]

Dad has been an artist since he left the United States Marine Corps 65 years ago and acts extremely happy that he's been able to earn a living in art. I cannot draw a straight line. I suppose before dad gets too old that I ought to set up the Walker Turner lathe I restored some years ago and have him teach me how to use it.
We visit your area at least once a year, always near Thanksgiving time. Usually stay out in a town called Newport, Tennessee in a place that overlooks the mountains.

Nice! Very few are those who make art pay the bills. :-)

Newport is not far. I'm about 30 minutes north of Knoxville, just outside of Clinton. If you come down I-75 you pass within four miles of my farm, further if your route is I-81. If you can make it work, stop for a visit! I've been retired for 10 years and my schedule is flexible. You can take a llama for a walk, fead the peacocks, get stung by a honeybee. I have enough lathes set up to teach small woodturning classes.

JKJ

[Brodie Brickey]

I like both. I've done more turning and am moving into more flat work.

I equate turning to sculpture or pottery in the reverse. You take this ' ' amount away and create a shape. There is more 'by feel' and less major planning. Without insulting anyone, it has greater leans towards 'art'. Where turners fall down is we get stuck in the projects (bowls, mugs, vases, urns, pens, wands, walking sticks, et nauseum). Then we focus on finish, paint, texture, piercing, air brush work, etc until you can't tell it was made from wood.

Turning can also provide a quick return on your 1-2 hour investment in the shop. Flat work? see you in 10 hours and then we can see it is starting to 'come together'.