Could my nanofilter be loading up already?

[Randall J Cox]

Have a new 1.75HP single stage Powermatic DC with the "turbo cone" that is supposed to stop the loading of the filter. Have a Wynn cartridge nanofilter and am on my first collection bag of sawdust since installing it and my ducting in my small shop and starting to use it. Added a Magnehelic 0-5 "inches of water" gauge. With less than 6-8" in the bag, the gauge is creeping up to 3" of water as I use this setup more and more. Is this normal? I see the sawdust spinning around in the bottom of the collection bag - is that normal? I know not to let the bag get over half full, but this is far from it. Looking for any experience on this subject....not sure whats normal.. Thanks. Randy

[James Gunning]

Randy,

The turbo cone may help somewhat, but with a single stage DC, you will see your filter load up, probably more often than you expected. Even with a cyclone, eventually, the filter will collect enough fine dust that it will need cleaning. It just depends on what you're feeding into the DC and what your expectations were on how often you would need to clean the filter. A cyclone is really the only way to extend the intervals between filter cleanings. Or exhaust outside. At least, the filter is easy to clean with compressed air from the outside. The fines will just drop into the collection bag.

The sawdust spinning around in the collection bag is normal. Any DC that imparts a spin to the airflow will do that to some extent. It happened in my old DC in the lower bag. Even with the SDD cyclone I can see evidence the air is still spinning somewhat in the collection drum. Emptying the collection bag frequently will help. The higher the level of chips in the bag, the more likely some will be sucked up in the airflow and into the filter. I would watch this carefully. If the chips get too high you will pull them up into the filter. Trust me, cleaning it then is a pain.

[Ben Rivel]

Thats what I was thinking, that "turbo cone" is NOT a cyclone. Its great and smart that you upgraded the filter to a Wynn Nano filter, but now you have to take that next step and add an Oneida Super Dust Deputy in that dust collection system and turn it into a real two stage.

[Randall J Cox]

Thats what I was thinking, that "turbo cone" is NOT a cyclone. Its great and smart that you upgraded the filter to a Wynn Nano filter, but now you have to take that next step and add an Oneida Super Dust Deputy in that dust collection system and turn it into a real two stage.

I would have done that already if I had the room, I'm maxed out now. I do have a small cyclone on my Fein shop vac, been using that for years and it really works as you know. I only have about 3 inches of sawdust on the bottom of the bag, that's why it seemed like the filter shouldn't be building so much back pressure so soon - and its my first bag. Maybe it will settle in at 3" and not go any higher in pressure for a while. I know the diff between the cone and cyclone, having read lots on Pentz's web site and lots on this forum. I have a 16'x19' shop and have in it: old Delta 450lb 12x36 lathe, Delta 15" floor DP, Delta 15" planer, Powermatic 8" jointer, shop vac with cyclone, DC unit, Delta Unisaw with 50 cutting cap., 250lb workbench, 14" delta bandsaw, and 2 HP 6x48 belt/12" disc sander on its own stand, roll around multidrawer toolbox with chest on top, 12" DeWalt chopsaw with wings and work table in center about 4' sq. I'm wall to wall machines now, if something comes in, something has to go out. Also in the garage I have my air compressor and 8" Delta grinder on a pedestal and more wood storage and two cars (in a two car garage). Just upgraded my tube lights to LEDs, nice upgrade in light thanks to Costco. Ok, I'm rambling, time to stop. Appreciate the comments. Randy

[Ben Rivel]

I would have done that already if I had the room, I'm maxed out now. I do have a small cyclone on my Fein shop vac, been using that for years and it really works as you know. I only have about 3 inches of sawdust on the bottom of the bag, that's why it seemed like the filter shouldn't be building so much back pressure so soon - and its my first bag. Maybe it will settle in at 3" and not go any higher in pressure for a while. I know the diff between the cone and cyclone, having read lots on Pentz's web site and lots on this forum. I have a 16'x19' shop and have in it: old Delta 450lb 12x36 lathe, Delta 15" floor DP, Delta 15" planer, Powermatic 8" jointer, shop vac with cyclone, DC unit, Delta Unisaw with 50 cutting cap., 250lb workbench, 14" delta bandsaw, and 2 HP 6x48 belt/12" disc sander on its own stand, roll around multidrawer toolbox with chest on top, 12" DeWalt chopsaw with wings and work table in center about 4' sq. I'm wall to wall machines now, if something comes in, something has to go out. Also in the garage I have my air compressor and 8" Delta grinder on a pedestal and more wood storage and two cars (in a two car garage). Just upgraded my tube lights to LEDs, nice upgrade in light thanks to Costco. Ok, I'm rambling, time to stop. Appreciate the comments. Randy
Oh I hear ya, I working in a single car garage myself which is smaller than your space. It really does become a challenge to make it all fit. That said, a setup like this:

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Shouldnt take up too much more floor space than the current dust collector you are using. That and I know one of the things that helped me save space was going with a jointer/planer combo unit. Expensive as all hell I know, but they save a lot of space, are usually very high quality units (like the Hammer units) and you can recover some of the cost from selling your current jointer and planer.

[Randall J Cox]

Ouch - those Euro jointer planer combos are pricey... Don't think that's in the budget these days. I did learn my lesson with my little cyclone, let it get to full once and it sucked it out of the 5 gallon can and into the bag in the shop vac, packing it solid. Good ideas though, thanks. BTW, I grew up in West and North Sacto - a product of American River College and Sac State.... Then into the USAF as the draft was after me. Ending up making the USAF a career. Randy

[Andy Giddings]

Randy, as Ben suggested, if you reconfigure your single stage DC you can get a Super DD in the same footprint as the original DC. Lots of how to videos on You Tube on how to do it - just need some 2x4s and some weight lifting to get the motor mounted!! Photo shows what I did with mine (this is before I added fixed metal duct)

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[Kurt Kintner]

Hmmm.... Interesting... I've had a NANO filter on my 2hp ShopFox for a year or so,
and have noticed the manometer rising more often lately... I'll empty the bag today
and see if that makes a difference....
I've been in cyclone denial for many years, but maybe it's time to take another look ....
Any advice on what works best ??

[Andy Giddings]

Kurt, I've read about reworked single stage DCs with Super Dust Deputies from Oneida, Cyclones from Grizzly and home made cyclones. All seem to work well. I tried a Thien baffle in my DC just above the bag and this worked well to stop rotating dust going up into the filter once the bag is getting full. I've been running with the Super DD for about 6 months - have filled the 55 gallon drum 5 times and only have a few ounces of dust in the bag. I've not cleaned my filter yet and there has been no measurable drop in air flow.

I believe Fine Woodworking tested the different approaches with a Wynn filter (Cyclone, Baffle, no mods at all). The Cyclone and Baffle both work, but you will need to clean the filter more often. Without these, cleaning the filter is required maintenance after every bag fill. Search for Soup Up Your Dust Collector by Fine Woodworking for the article

[Randall J Cox]

i wonder if I added some spacers, maybe 12" of them to move the nanofilter higher from the unit and cone, if that would help. I might get it away from the high turbulence area somewhat. I really don't have the room for anything more, even a cyclone. I'm only a few inches between machines now. Have to roll out the DP and BS to use them as it is. As I'm just starting to use this DC system after installing it and all the ductwork. (I don't even want to think about redoing that.) I think I need to just use it for a while, at least half a bag of sawdust worth monitoring the pressure gauge, before I do anything drastic.... I did look at any possible way to install a cyclone at the beginning and gave up, it was a squeeze just getting a single stage DC in the shop... Randy

[James Gunning]

Randy,

I've posted these photos before, so you may have seen it already, but here is my DC built using a Penn State blower, SDD, and Wynn nanofilter. My objective was to keep it in the footprint of the original Penn State DC. Other than it's taller, within an inch or two, it occupies the same space as the DC. I'm in a small two car garage that still parks at least one car. I feel your pain about the space crunch.

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[Kurt Kintner]

Kurt, I've read about reworked single stage DCs with Super Dust Deputies from Oneida, Cyclones from Grizzly and home made cyclones. All seem to work well. I tried a Thien baffle in my DC just above the bag and this worked well to stop rotating dust going up into the filter once the bag is getting full. I've been running with the Super DD for about 6 months - have filled the 55 gallon drum 5 times and only have a few ounces of dust in the bag. I've not cleaned my filter yet and there has been no measurable drop in air flow.

I believe Fine Woodworking tested the different approaches with a Wynn filter (Cyclone, Baffle, no mods at all). The Cyclone and Baffle both work, but you will need to clean the filter more often. Without these, cleaning the filter is required maintenance after every bag fill. Search for Soup Up Your Dust Collector by Fine Woodworking for the article

Thanx for the reply, Andy ..... Even though the manometer rises about an inch, the system still seems just as strong...
I clean it anyway... Takes about a minute with a blow gun..... But, I will look into a Thien baffle ....

[Curt Harms]

Thanx for the reply, Andy ..... Even though the manometer rises about an inch, the system still seems just as strong...
I clean it anyway... Takes about a minute with a blow gun..... But, I will look into a Thien baffle ....


I've had a Thien baffle for a few years. Mine works really well for jointer/planer chips and T.S. 'dust' collection. I don't think it works as well for something like a drum sander. I've cleaned the cartridge filter a couple times. There are no chips or large particles. There is a fair bit of wood 'flour' in the folds of the Wynn spun bond filter. That filter has no paper in it and seems pretty durable. I vacuum the inside and rub the folds with the vac wand. I then wash it out with a normal hose - the spun bond filter can be washed. It does take at least one full day to dry in often humid E. PA.

[Keith Westfall]

I took my old 1.5 Delta DC and modified it a bit, had to raise the top cross bar to allow the garbage can to fit. Made a Thein filter for it, and mounted it just below the system after modifying the base a bit, and it works great. Basically the same footprint, but better collection.

Really fine dust gets to the filter and has to be blown out once in a while - no big deal.

I use this on my CNC, Tablesaw, Planer and drum sander with reasonably good results. I truly believe the Thein filter is the key. Hose from machine hooks to the fitting at the front.

IF you only have 6" of material in the bag, you can be sure that the rest of it is going into the filter, (it HAS to go someplace). I would not think that raising the filter would make any difference.

You really need some way to get the bulk out, and let the filter do the work on the fines...

[Randall J Cox]

Here's my issue on space.342404342403342405
As I had a 6" inlet, I tried to leave about 18" of straight in ductwork before going up and overhead. and I only have 8' ceilings. Randy

[Keith Westfall]

Why the 18" straight in? I have my flexible hose directly onto my thein filter, and probably suffer some airflow I suppose, but it does work. Plus it's on wheels so i can move it around.

[Curt Harms]

Randall, you could put a Thien baffle in the bottom of the Powermatic 'funnel', that takes zero extra room. Thien baffles are really simple to make. I made mine out of 3/4" particle board, I probably should have used something thinner, or at least rounded/beveled the ends of the slot so as to minimize air turbulence. Something else to watch is the non-slotted portion of the disk in relation to the dust inlet. Here are a couple of pics.

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[Randall J Cox]

Curt, yes I have read about Thein baffles and watched a number of videos about them and their construction. I think I'm just going to watch my system for a while and see how far the pressure gauge goes up. It just may stop at 3 inches of water, where it is now, and the bag slowly fills or at least that's what I am hoping for. I am just now finalizing the end of the final duct run, not really dying to tear it all up after spending months putting it together. Sure appreciate all the comments from everyone though. At least I can start thinking about what to do next. I really don't generate that much sawdust, thought it might be months before I had to clean the filter. Also, its hard to get to, but with my space issue, I was lucky to squeeze in what I have. I'm only 2-3 inches from machines on both sides and the DP, on the left of the DC, I have to pull out to use. I also have to roll out my BS to use, both units on wheels though. I'm just glad to have a shop in the big scheme of things.... Randy

[James Gunning]

Randy,

Yep, that looks tight. The overall dimensions of my SDD cyclone system is 24" x 35" x 75". Maybe just a bit larger than your current Powermatic unit, but probably close. So, if you wanted to combine your blower with an SDD, it would probably fit in your corner.

I agree though, first see if your current setup works for you. If it does, great, if not, you have a few other options. I never tried a Thein baffle because I had already decided on a cyclone when I saw plans for the Thein. I did try a trash can separator, but it passed lots of chips through plus nearly all the fines. I spent a quite a bit of time cleaning my filter with the trash can unit. I would not waste your time with one.

[Keith Westfall]

.
I think I'm just going to watch my system for a while and see how far the pressure gauge goes up. It just may stop at 3 inches of water, where it is now, and the bag slowly fills or at least that's what I am hoping for.

Not likely to get better, why would it? If the dust and chips have been going onto the filter, they will continue to do so. Unless it get so plugged that there's not enough air flow to get them up into the filter. But by then, your differential on your water meter will be pretty high I would think. The trick is to stop as much as you can and let the filter just do the fine dust.

Good luck and keep us posted. We're all looking for ways to improve our systems and sharing ideas is what makes it happen!

Thanks.

[Randall J Cox]

My issue is that this is the first use/loading of the filter. It might be just getting its first coating of fines. I have no benchmark. I want to let it go for a while and see what happens to know what to expect in the future. If it goes much above 3", I'll take it apart and take a look at the filter to actually see if its just fines or heavier stuff. If it stays at 3" i'm ok with that as it is pulling hard are now (subjective I know) at 3". I'm hoping its only fines (of course) and then I'll just blow out the filter periodically from the outside.... I don't do that much woodworking that I would fill the bag even halfway in 2-3 months. Either way I'll post update. Again, appreciate all comments and insights, I'm learning! Randy

[Andy Giddings]

Randy, I think the description of the Nanofilter material on Wynn's site states that it doesn't need pre-loading like other materials do to achieve the target filter efficiency. It has max efficiency out of the box. Also, it is more tolerant of being coated without a significant drop in the same efficiency. This might explain why your system seems to be still "pulling hard" with a 3" pressure increase

[Derek Stockley]

I think I'm just going to watch my system for a while and see how far the pressure gauge goes up.

Randy, this is what happens if you let the pressure build up too much:

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In my case, it built up so much that the air pressure inside the collector actually caused the canister to "pop" off the collector, blowing a huge cloud of dust around. The cleanup from this wasn't fun. :D

Adding a Super Dust Deputy really did help. It's definitely not perfect, but it reduced my need to clean my canister filter from about once every 3 months of hobby use to about once a year and it's far less loaded up by the time the annual cleaning happens. AND, by wall mounting my setup on some shop-made steel shelf brackets, I actually recovered useful floor space. With a bit of creativity reconfiguring your machine, you can probably do even better than I did by mounting your filter and blower as close to the ceiling as you can. My setup fits under my garage door, which is closer to 7' tall than 8' because of the track.

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I have a more detailed write-up about my experiences on my blog (http://www.makingsplinters.com/2014/01/upgrading-a-delta-50-760-dust-collector-with-an-oneida-super-dust-deputy/), including more pictures.

[Randall J Cox]

Derek - Holy cow, do you know how many inches of water it was at when it popped? Guess I'll go out and blow out the fines right now. What pressure and how far away do you do that? i just read your blog on this, I'm amazed at how much these dust collection systems cost with all the nuts and bolts, etc. I spent probably twice as much as I first estimated that it would cost me. And the filter seems to be loading up much faster than I expected as I don't do all that much woodworking. A real learning situation, especially given that I had read so much about these systems before I started - many, many hours of reading. Randy

[James Gunning]

Randy,

Dick Wynn said to use no more than 60 PSI to clean the nano filters from the outside. A leaf blower works also, more air-less pressure.

Before I built my DC with the SDD, on a couple of occasions, my canister filter looked similar to Derek's. Without the cyclone, it pays to clean early and often.

[Charles R Johnson]

Randall,
The more air flow through the system the higher the back pressure of the filter so you want to only have one duct open at a time. You can check the back pressure as you open up more blast gates (ducts) to see how it operates. Assuming you have the same amount of air flowing through the system and the pressure has gone from near zero to 3" in such a short time it is most likely large material plugging the filter.
If it were me I'd pull the filter and see if it's plugging up with larger shavings. If it is, you're going to have to make some mods. It takes quite some time to plug that type of filter with just fine dust as it has a large amount of surface area. Seems like wishful thinking that the system will stabilize at 3" of static back pressure. It appears that you have a reasonable amount of ducting and equipment hooked to that sized system. Loosing 3" of static to pressure drop across the filter will seriously reduce the air flow through the equipment and capture of fine dust.
You are correct in having a straight section of pipe directly in front of the blower to minimize drop but that is minor compared to the plugged filter (if that is the problem).
CJ

[Randall J Cox]

Well after getting spooked by Derek's pic, I just took mine apart for the first time. First i "cleaned" it with 50 psi of compressed air from outside and tried it to see what it did to pressure readings. Went from 3.5" of water to just under 3". Not good. So I took it apart and the nano filter was loaded with fine dust (not nearly as much as Derek's though). That was fun cleaning - not! Guess I need to re engineer and add a cyclone - somehow. Randy

[Derek Stockley]

My experience was exactly the same - my canister filter loaded up WAY faster than I expected after I installed it. I don't have a pressure gauge on my collector so I didn't have a good sense of exactly how much it had built up when it popped. There was one very practical warning sign though and I didn't successfully put 2 and 2 together until after the "incident": I started getting clogged pipes when using my jointer because the air velocity in my pipe was so reduced that the chips weren't staying airborne.

The kind of dust you see in my picture is largely the really fine stuff that comes from sanding - I use my dust collector to collect from a random orbit sander, and at the time I was also doing a fair amount of power sanding on my lathe. It takes longer to build up that kind of clog if you're mostly using machines that generate coarse chips, but still not long enough.

When I clean mine, I use a crevice tool in my shop vac and I run it down the inside of each pleat inside the filter. It seems very effective, but it is probably causing a lot of wear on the filter media. The best people to ask about cleaning instructions would be Wynn though. Some filters can be hosed down, for example, and others can't.

One other note - my picture shows a plastic garbage can under my super dust deputy. That turned out to be a bad idea. The garbage can walls caved in under suction one day leaving me with another mess. I replaced it with a simple melamine box, sealed with caulking at the box corners and weather strip under the lid and no problems since that. When the blower is after the cyclone in the air stream, it's critical that there are no leaks anywhere between the cyclone inlet and outlet or it won't separate the dust from the air.

[Keith Westfall]

One other note - my picture shows a plastic garbage can under my super dust deputy. That turned out to be a bad idea.

I had the same thing happen, but I had already built my Thein separator to fit the can. So what I did, was to put a couple of 1.25 x .125 aluminum bands on the inside of the can. No problem now. Much easier that remaking the top!

If you google a manometer, (I think it is) you can see how to make a simple one with a fitting and some clear hose. I just put a fitting in the end of my filter, attached the hose to a board marked with some lines (1/2" apart) and filled with coloured water. Works well.

[Randall J Cox]

Ok, I ordered my super dust deputy today. Starting to take my current system apart at the DC for the retrofit. This is going to be like stuffing 10 lbs into a 5 lb box. In my design phase now, looked at many pics, including those posted on this thread, to see which fits my situation along with different construction ideas. Love this forum for that! The only thing that still makes no sense to me is why after blowing the filter out form the outside, the pressure did not drop more than 1/2 in of water pressure. When I did take the filter off right after that, it was not loaded to the degree I thought it might be. Again, really appreciate all the insightful replies. BTW, does anyone know how inches of water pressure correlate to PSI? Randy

[James Gunning]

Randall,

I did notice something to consider with fitting an SDD to your blower. The impeller in your Powermatic appears to spin clockwise, (when viewed with the impeller horizontal and the motor on the top side-viewed from above). The SDD is set up with a CCW spin. (as viewed from above) If you couple them closely together like I did on my build, the airflow spin will have to reverse direction going into the blower. It will still work, but will result in some loss of efficiency. If you are able to put a longer duct between the blower and SDD, it may help that problem somewhat, but may result in too tall a unit in your confined space. The solution is an air straightener. Simply, a set of vanes in an "X" pattern in the center tube of the SDD. Essentially dividing the center tube into quarters. That stops the airflow from swirling and feeds the impeller with the smooth airstream it needs. It's a similar issue as the recommendation to have a few feet of smooth pipe feeding into the intake of the SDD (or any DC for that matter). It reduces turbulence in the airflow which will increase the efficiency of the blower.

I would say, in general, try to avoid using flex pipe to the extent possible and the amount of twists and turns for the airflow. Pretty much the same as a duct system design.

[Randall J Cox]

Wow, I never would have noticed that... Just my luck. Nice catch! Now I have something else to mod. Better to know now than later after it's all back together. Thanks again! Randy

[Andy Giddings]

1 PSI is about 27.7 inches of water, Randy. Google is your friend :-). I suspect you are not getting the filter fully clean when blowing which is why the drop is small. Not sure there is much you can do about it but might be worth giving Wynn a call to see if there is a better method

[Randall J Cox]

Randall,

I did notice something to consider with fitting an SDD to your blower. The impeller in your Powermatic appears to spin clockwise, (when viewed with the impeller horizontal and the motor on the top side-viewed from above). The SDD is set up with a CCW spin. (as viewed from above) If you couple them closely together like I did on my build, the airflow spin will have to reverse direction going into the blower. It will still work, but will result in some loss of efficiency. If you are able to put a longer duct between the blower and SDD, it may help that problem somewhat, but may result in too tall a unit in your confined space. The solution is an air straightener. Simply, a set of vanes in an "X" pattern in the center tube of the SDD. Essentially dividing the center tube into quarters. That stops the airflow from swirling and feeds the impeller with the smooth airstream it needs. It's a similar issue as the recommendation to have a few feet of smooth pipe feeding into the intake of the SDD (or any DC for that matter). It reduces turbulence in the airflow which will increase the efficiency of the blower.

I would say, in general, try to avoid using flex pipe to the extent possible and the amount of twists and turns for the airflow. Pretty much the same as a duct system design.

X vanes in top of SDD. Makes sense. Have you done? Kind of scary as they are right close and subject to being sucked into the spinning metal impeller (as I plan to mount the motor impeller up top, connected directly to the SDD). They would have to be made of something strong and anchored to the side of the SDD with pop rivets or something similar. Don't want drag so maybe sheet metal which is thin. How long would they have to be? Anybody out there done this, if so how? Thanks. Randy

[James Gunning]

Randy,

I haven't done it yet, but will be one of first chores when it cools down this fall. (un-airconditioned summer shop working in FL isn't much fun). My plan is to make the air straightener out of sheet metal, either aluminum or steel (It could also be plastic). It would want to be the same length as the center tube of the SDD. I was thinking of either pop rivets or screws to secure it to the center tube. I have the same concern about it going into the impeller, so the mounting wants to be secure.

The actual shape of the pieces I plan on is two flat rectangular pieces, each with a slot in the bottom center running halfway up the length. Slip them over each other and you have an X. If I use sheet metal I would probably solder the center joint. Then some trimming until it slipped into the center tube of the SDD. Tabs on the top of the x would fasten to the center tube. Difficult to get at the bottom of the center tube, so would likely only fasten at the top. It would not have to be airtight, nor a perfect X to work. All we're looking for is to stop the rotation of the airstream going up the center tube.

I can't remember where I saw it, but I've also seen this done with a cluster of flexible plastic tubes (about 1" diameter) filling the center tube as well. I'm sure it worked well, but I was concerned that method might be more apt to clog if longer stringy bits of wood got sucked into it. The X could get stuff sticking to it as well, but that seemed to me less likely.

[Randall J Cox]

Wow, I guess 3 in of water isn't much pressure. My SDD arrived today so my teardown of existing single stage system begins and the new configuration then will start. My first order of business is the vanes in the SDD. Randy

[Tim Campbell]

Hi Randall,

Of what it's worth, I reckon the whole line about having to match cyclone rotation with fan rotation and how straightening vanes will counteract this effect is a myth. I used to believe this myth myself, and set off to do some testing to determine what the effect of mis-matching fan and cylone rotations using 2 near identical cyclones connected in turn to my 2 HP fan. I then added flow straightening vanes and repeated the tests to see inf this made any difference. As you can see from the plotted data below, there's very little difference between the 3 different configurations.

Attached below are pictures of the two cyclones, the straightening vane in the cyclone outlet tube and the plotted data. The cyclone on the left is the MK 1 prototype which matches the fan rotation direction, the one on the right is the Mk 2 with opposing rotation. One note about the data, our domestic power supply is 50Hz which will result in airflows of around 20% less than what you would be expecting to see, but i think the relativity between the data whould still be applicable.

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