Electrical Question: Outlets and Surge proctectors

[Clarence Martin]

Got the Computer and all the things that go with it, plugged into a Surge Protector. The Surge Protector is then plugged into a regular 3 prong outlet. Outlet is NOT GFCI. Do have Circuit Breakers in the Basement , not the old fuses.


Question:

would there be any added benefit, Electrical Surge wise, to change out that outlet , and replace it with a GFCI ?

[John K Jordan]

...would there be any added benefit, Electrical Surge wise, to change out that outlet , and replace it with a GFCI ?

I'm not an electrician but my understanding is the GFCI is not for surge protection but to protect you from electrocution when you are grounded (touching something or in a wet location) and touch a hot wire. The chances of this happen at your computer is about zero. Do be sure your outlet is properly gounded. You can plug in a receptacle tester for this.

I do use surge protectors but I think what is better for protection and for other reasons when powering electronic equipment is a good uninterruptible power supply. Remember, however, that not much will stop lighting.

JKJ

[Chris Padilla]

John has it nailed pretty good. There are surge protecting outlets you could install if you want to double-up on the protection.

[Larry Frank]

Having a good surge is critical. A good one is not cheap but a good investment.

Even better is a UPS which will act as a surge protector and protect your computer from sudden shut downs due to power loss. I have one on my computer and another on my dsl modem and router.

[Wes Thom]

Having a good surge is critical. A good one is not cheap but a good investment.
Little relationship exists between price and effectiveness. This thread is a perfect example. Where is one recommendation based in science or specification numbers. Every recommendation only says, "Trust me."

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Always. How many joules does that expensive protector claim to absorb? Hundreds? A thousand? That is near zero protection.

A surge too tiny to overwhelm robust protection already inside appliances might also destroy that near zero protector. Then wild speculation says, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my electronics." Total nonsense. Many will recommend that near zero protector and buy more only because it failed catastrophically - in an unacceptable manner.

Even less protection is a UPS. Anyone can read spec numbers. Most who recommend do not. A UPS often has joules numbers so tiny that it cannot be any smaller. That near zero number means 100% protection - if thinking subjectively. Scams work on consumers who do not always demand numbers.

Best protection at any appliance is already inside that appliance. Your concern is a surge (maybe once every seven years) that can overwhelm existing protection. Informed consumers spend about $1 per protected appliance for a solution that says where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

No protector does protection. Even a 'whole house' solution is ineffective if not connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground. Protectors are only connecting devices to what absorbs energy. Protection is defined by quality of that earth ground AND a low impedance (ie wire without sharp bends) connection to it.

A good recommendation discusses these many numbers. Either a surge connects harmlessly to earth outside. Or it goes hunting for earth destructively inside. Only a homeowner makes that choice.

Protection has always been about how an electrical transient connects to earth. Structure protection is about how a lightning rod connects to earth. Appliance protection is about how every wire in every utility cable connects to earth - either via a hardwire or via a 'whole house' protector.

Protection is about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A concept originally demonstrated by Franklin over 250 years ago.

[Jason Roehl]

You're right, Wes--for lightning strikes that are close or direct. Many surges are the result of lightning strikes and power interruptions miles away which are largely dissipated by the time they reach most end-users. However, those small surges can still easily damage computers and other electronics. For these much more common small surges, a typical surge protector and/or UPS is quite effective.

[Larry Frank]

I lose power multiple times a year due to lightning and car accidents. How close a lightning strike...close enough that the time between lightning and thunder was a second. I lost power but my computer still ran with no damage. I had a car accident a half mile down the highway that rattled the power on and off a couple of times and then off...again computer still on and OK.

I use a surge protector and UPS. The danger is not only the surge but having the computer shut down suddenly. I have a Belkin surge protector and yes I looked at the ratings. I also have with an APC UPS.

I understand that I am not an electrical engineer and appreciate the comments by Wes. Since he sounds very knowledgeable perhaps he could recommend what brand or rating are appropriate.

[John K Jordan]

... what brand or rating are appropriate.

An interesting write-up (on wikipedia so take it as you will) might shed some light on why just stating joule ratings grossly simplifies the issue. It tells why it is not the joule rating but the nature of the surge and how it is handled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

Commercial installations might use expensive devices to divert surges and spikes, out of the budgets of most of us. How well you protect is a matter of risk assessment.

As I mentioned earlier, not much will stop lightning, especially a direct or nearby hit. I don't see many houses protected by lightning rods these days. I use good surge protection before several good quality UPS units with built-in surge protection for the house (computer/wifi) and in the shop (wifi, femtocell, and security system). I bought a service entrance protector from a commercial electrical supplier. The cost was not unreasonable. In some areas the electrical company will install these for the asking. In my case, all utility lines are underground with the electrical transformer on the property which also helps.

The best thing for lightning storms is to unplug things. A UPS is easy to unplug and not only isolates from spikes/surges but keeps my equipment running for a long time while isolated. I prefer a UPS with a clean sine wave output - some of the cheaper devices have pretty sloppy power.

JKJ

[Wes Thom]

However, those small surges can still easily damage computers and other electronics. For these much more common small surges, a typical surge protector and/or UPS is quite effective.
Put numbers to that belief. Output of this 120 volt pure sine wave UPS is a 200 volt square wave with a spike of up to 270 volts. Yes, that is a pure sine wave output. Square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. As taught in high school math.

That UPS output (and dirtier ones) is problematic for motorized appliances. That same output is ideal for electronics. Only urban myths (made subjectively) proclaim fear of 'dirty' power. Emotions are not science. That 'dirty' power does not damage electronics. For same reasons that international design standards (long before PCs existed) also define that not destructive.

Knowledge means first learning how DC voltages are created. Incoming AC power (cleanest or dirtiest) is filtered. Then converted to DC. And filtered again. Then converted to well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. That voltage powers all semiconductors. More filters, galvanic isolation, and regulators convert well over 300 volt spikes into rock stable, low DC voltage with no spikes and that vary less than 0.1 volts.

If a surge protector or UPS did what was only assumed, well, that 'clean' power is first made 'dirtiest' to safely power semiconductors. You have zero reasons and no spec numbers to believe that UPS or plug-in protector does something useful. Since best protection already exists inside electronics - to convert high frequency 300+ volt spikes into the 'cleanest' DC voltages.

"Common small surges" are a fear invented by advertising, hearsay, propaganda, and speculation to sell obscenely overpriced 'magic boxes' to electrically naive computer techs. If it exists, then numbers are provided to define it. Those mythical fears only exist when numbers are ignored. Best protection at electronics is already inside electronics. That same 'dirty' power can be problematic to motorized appliances.

Concern is for anomalies that can overwhelm existing protection. Only effective are protectors at the service entrance and other solutions provided (for free) by utilities. In every case, with a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to what always does protection: single point earth ground. What does that plug-in protector and UPS not have? Earth ground. To protect sales, they will not even discuss it. They are not marketing to people who know about 300+ volt radio frequency spikes and other robust and existing protection. They are marketing fears of trivial and invented anomalies.

A superior and well proven (by over 100 years of science and experience) solution costs tens of times less than an obscenely profitable protector. Protects from all types of surges including a feared 'tiny' surge.

Second, put numbers to a 'small surge'. Hundreds of joules. A tiny surge that might or might not damage a protector is also routinely converted to rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductor. To market highly profitable and near zero protectors, they forget to mention that fact. Why would anyone spend tens or 100 times more money on protectors or UPS that does not even claim to protect from any typically destructive surge? Advertising, hearsay, wild speculation, technical obfuscation, and ignoring spec numbers creates naive and profitable customers.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - for all types of surges.

[Wes Thom]

I lost power but my computer still ran with no damage.
Power loss does not damage any hardware. Power loss is a threat to unsaved data (and unfinished projects). This was well established by international design standards long before PCs existed. One standard says so bluntly for all voltage down to zero - and in all capital letters. "No Damage Region". Power loss never damages properly designed electronics.

What Belkin number defines protection? How many joules does it absorb when surges are hundreds of thousands of joules? Either it disconnects protector parts as fast as possible while leaving that destructive surge connected to appliances. Or fire can result. Are these acceptable? Of course not. Informed homeowners spend tens of times less money to properly earth a 'whole house' protector. To even protect that Belkin.

Effective protector sells like rubber bands. A commodity. What defines a best rubber band? Spec numbers. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps - from any company with integrity (Belkin is not on the list). Spec numbers (not brand names) are relevant.

Well proven solution comes from companies known by any guy for their integrity. Including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and General Electric. A Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) sells in Lowes and Home Depot for maybe $60.

But again, no protector does protection. Protection is always about what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. A protector is only as effective as the one item that must have most of your attention - single point earth ground.

Nothing stops lightning. Explains why plug-in protector and UPS is so ineffective. Even unplugging is quite unreliable. Protection from direct lightning strikes was routine even 100 years ago. Protection of a structure means earthing: a lightning rod. Protection of appliances means earthing: a connection to earth ground either directly by a hardwire (cable TV, satellite dish, OTA antenna) or via a protector (telephone, AC electric). Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to protect from destructive surges. Read spec numbers. Where is its low impedance connection to earth? Why do they not discuss any of this? Why do they avoid all numbers? It says who they are marketing to.

[Wes Thom]

Commercial installations might use expensive devices to divert surges and spikes, out of the budgets of most of us. That same solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Protects are dirt cheap. Quality of protection is defined by something completely different - what is in that dirt.