LV PM VII blades [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Patrick Chase

08-08-2016, 7:08 PM

Many of us don't have a problem honing the PM-V11 blades. They take a bit longer than the A or O blades but they also take longer to dull.

I have a bunch of PM-V11 blades as well as LV and L-N planes with A2, and I don't think the A2 blades hone any faster on any medium I've tried (arks, synthetic waterstones, various diamond media). O1 is faster than either of course.

george wilson

08-09-2016, 8:34 AM

A diamond plate hones them all faster,followed up by ceramic stones,harder than any other stones,so they sharpen any steel. I was unable to reach a shaving sharp edge on a D2 knife I made. Ceramics brought the edge right up.

Prashun Patel

08-09-2016, 9:29 AM

If I understand your question correctly, you're asking if a NEW pmv11 requires honing.

That depends on how honed you like your blades. Lee Valley ships their Veritas blades ready for use. I always use them straight out of the box for a while and have no problems.

The front and back are not mirror polished, but it will work fine. I've owned several Veritas blades (A2 and PMV11) and every one has had a perfectly flat back out of the box, so I wouldn't go nuts messing that up.

James Pallas

08-09-2016, 9:52 AM

I have several pmv11 blades. I gave one a try right out of the box. It did okay but not good enough for me. I give them a rub on my smooth flat river Rock and they are good to go. I have built about 6 projects over the last couple of years, getting old and slow. Those blades have not been honed and are still good to go. I have a Sargent 409 that I use fairly often also. The iron in that has been to the stones 4 or five times in the same time period. This is not a good test for sure but it is good info I believe. So I say you need to take the pmv11 to the stones lightly no need for a full fledged prep.
Jim

Mike Brady

08-09-2016, 11:27 AM

I'm confused. I thought the PM-V11 steel was easy to sharpen...like O1. Now the talk is " a little more difficult than A2". What the...?

Patrick Chase

08-09-2016, 12:05 PM

I'm confused. I thought the PM-V11 steel was easy to sharpen...like O1. Now the talk is " a little more difficult than A2". What the...?

In my experience they're easier than A2 on all media I've tried: Arks, waterstones, diamond films/pastes. They're not as easy as O1 (esp on Arks, the difference becomes smaller with more aggressive abrasives) but IMO the improved edge life is more than worth it. Put another way, you'll sharpen less, and that more than offsets the fact that each session is a little longer.

george wilson

08-09-2016, 12:18 PM

I had no trouble sharpening mine. But,I have a GOOD sharpening system.Diamond stone,ceramics.

Jim Koepke

08-09-2016, 1:13 PM

Hearing all about the "futzin", and the new "improved" steel, call me a "pooper". I much prefer the original irons. Easy to refresh, and don't require any of the exotic stuff.
Wanna have a "plane off". No? Well, I don't either. Most of all, I have no need for a .002" shaving. What's the point?
Bill

I only have one PM v11 blade in a spoke shave. It really doesn't take a lot of "futzin" to get sharp.

I also have a lot of original irons that do sharpen up with a bit more ease on oilstones or water stones.

As to the "need for an 0.002" shaving," it sure helps to have an even thinner shaving when your workpiece has a wild grain or is prone to tear out.

A thin shaving can also tell if there are any problems with the edge. If you thin shavings come out of the plane like a bunch of ribbons you have a blade with a lot of little nicks or chips.

A thin shaving is not important at all times for most work. However, most work will benefit from a blade sharp enough to make those beautifully thin shavings.

jtk

James Pallas

08-09-2016, 1:55 PM

Pmv11 sharpens nothing like a2 to me. I bought some a2 chisels a long time ago. Used them a bit but was never happy. Gave them away. At that time they felt to me like a very hard saw when you put the file to it. The edge didn't seem to hold up very well. If I knew than what I know now I could probably have done a lot better with them. Pmv11 does a lot better. It feels smoother on the stones and sharpens easily enough and holds an edge very well. This of course is just my opinion. As I said in a previous post I am not using tools as much as in the past. I can still feel the tool on the stone and in the wood tho.
Jim

Mike Henderson

08-09-2016, 3:09 PM

I find that the PM-V11 sharpens easily and stays sharp longer than other steels. Certainly longer than plain carbon steel.

Mike

Matt Lau

08-11-2016, 9:49 PM

I find it a hair easier to sharpen PMV11 than A2.
Of course, both are much easier thanks to George's sharpening system (thanks, George!)

glenn bradley

08-12-2016, 1:51 PM

The original question is "Is it worth the bother to hone before installing?" Man, I wish Lee Valley had produced spokeshave PM-VII blades when I faired out plywood mold stations for a cedar strip canoe. BTW my spokeshave was a modern English Stanley.

Sorry about that. I ran them as delivered for a few strokes and I believe yo could work with them that way to some extent. After honing the cut had that silky feel I prefer.

Phil Mueller

08-12-2016, 2:54 PM

It takes a bit of effort for me to make a major change...like taking a 30 degree primary bevel to 25 degrees (even using extra extra course diamond stone), but don't have enough experience with different metals to know if it's more or less effort. I did discover that 100 grit sandpaper will take it down quickly...

Touch ups and micro bevels don't seem to be much of a problem otherwise.

Mike Holbrook

08-12-2016, 3:38 PM

I look at sharpening from two perspectives: grinding and honing. I'm not entirely sure what the OP means by honing. I hollow grind all my new blades on a CBN wheel as soon as I get them. Each blade gets x amount of camber, x amount of bevel angle...depending on how I plan to use it. The resulting hollow is simple to hand sharpen on the ceramic stones George and others mention. Honing takes me a minuet or two maybe, that is med ceramic>fine or UF ceramic>green compound on MDF.

I don't use any blades the way they come from the manufacturer. As far as I know they all suggest that final honing may be necessary. How would a manufacturer know how I intend to use the blade? How much camber, sharpening angle, micro bevel or not.......In my opinion it makes little sense for a manufacturer to "hone" blades, whatever they might do would probably work for a small percentage of users and everyone else would just change it.

John Glendening

08-12-2016, 5:29 PM

...

I don't use any blades the way they come from the manufacturer. As far as I know they all suggest that final honing may be necessary. How would a manufacturer know how I intend to use the blade? How much camber, sharpening angle, micro bevel or not.......In my opinion it makes little sense for a manufacturer to "hone" blades, whatever they might do would probably work for a small percentage of users and everyone else would just change it.
I don't entirely disagree with you, since you are going to work as you see fit. However, the ones who makes the blades are selling to at least two different groups of consumers. On one end of the spectrum is the relative rookie (like me) who aren't quite there in terms of knowledge, skill, experience and all the rest - we need some help with a great starting point. We will learn as we go, from experience of others (thank you SMC), and from our own failures. At the other end are those who know exactly what works for them and how they deal with a new tool/blade/gadget/etc. They don't know who the buyer is - necessarily - so they need to advise that "final honing may be necessary".

Mike Holbrook

08-12-2016, 10:04 PM

I hear you John. I wrote that in a hurry between phone calls, now, rereading it, it sounds a little pretentious which was not how I meant it. There are just soooooooo many sharpening strategies people use these days. I imagine it is very difficult for manufacturers to decide how to deliver plane blades. I spent years trying to come up with a sharpening strategy for plane blades that worked for me. I am still fixing the screwed up bevels I ended up with from my early years.

I break sharpening into grinding and honing because that strategy finally got me producing consistent results. I started out with thick BU plane blades and kept trying to change the bevels with stones not designed to remove large amounts of steel. I ended up with a mess. I can understand why new woodworkers might get frustrated trying to work entire bevels or even micro bevels.

It may make perfect sense to simply work whatever bevel a plane blade is delivered with, especially if one does not have a good grinding system and experience using it. There are guys posting on SMC who apparently establish bevels regularly with coarse stones, often diamond stones. I personally was not successful establishing bevels until I got a grinder and CBN wheel. I suspect I could get similar results if I practiced with less expensive abrasives but I like the ease of use and long term solution the CBN wheels offer. I do feel obligated to warn new users against trying to change the bevels on plane blades without appropriate sharpening tools and strategy. I am the poster child for how frustrating that can be.

Sense the OP asked specifically about "honing" I was hurrying past discussion of grinding which is hard for me to do, as how I grind determines how I hone. Discussing honing without discussing grinding sort of feels back...wards to me, even though I understand that smarter beginners than me might do so for good reasons.

Ray Selinger

08-13-2016, 1:23 AM

Mike, I can understand the mess a plane blade can end up after grinding. The blade on the Anchor#6 is worst attempt I've seen on any of the used planes I've collected. I think he had a least four different bevels.

Whether we kick a pedal, turn a crank or flip a switch, a grinder removes metal to the basic bevel angle. I found a Veil 1x42 belt sander which I modified,Lee Valley sells them, the easiest to use.This a hand tool forum, so I won't go into machine tools.

Honing in my case would be on a waterstone. This will requires a bit of technique as my left is much weaker than my right. I had to redo some chisels to get rid of the skew.

Those are the terms a machinist would use in making a HSS lathe bit.

lowell holmes

08-13-2016, 5:15 PM

I've had no issues with my A2 blades. I finished the edge on them when I got them, and since then I occasionally will take a couple of strokes on a diamond hone and then hone on mdf charged with LV green honing compound.

It happens quicker than I can describe it.

Mike Holbrook

08-15-2016, 6:46 AM

Right Ray,
I have quite a few used: planes, drawknives, spokeshaves, axes...Many of them came with horrible bevels, many with skews and several different bevels...then there were the ones I messed up, trying to learn to grind on a Tormek, which I eventually figured out is just real slow as a grinder.

I used a belt sander for a while. I had issues with rounded edges and heat at first, which I got better at avoiding. I am just more accurate and faster with the CBN wheels, which may just be because I spent more time learning the prerequisite skill set. The CBN wheels speed helped me a great deal as I was able to see what was going on as I was working.

I finally figured out that I just wasn't going to feel comfortable sharpening good hand tools until I could shape my own bevels with reasonable speed and accuracy. I realize others, particularly those new to sharpening, may be a "little" less hard headed about this aspect of sharpening.

I would just like to prevent others from going through all the frustration I did trying to do major amounts of steel reshaping with very slow sharpening mediums. In my experience sooner or later we end up needing to reshape bevels, make cambers...frequently this need occurs sooner vs later.

For me sharpening isn't one important aspect of being successful with hand tools it is THE most important skill set. I find grinding to be an integral part of anyones sharpening skill set and maybe the most liberating skill set in terms of opening up to a wider range of sharpening options.

lowell holmes

08-15-2016, 9:57 AM

I only remember grinding an edge a few times. It's not something I need to do often. I did hollow grind some chisels on a bench grinder and finished the edge on hones. It has been years since I had to do that. I think I was learning to sharpen. I haven't felt the need to grind an edge recently.

I would not hesitate if the need arises.

Actually, I tend to repair chisel edges on a belt sander turned belt side up. The belt sander is held in a vise. It's been a while since I had to do that.

Ray Selinger

08-15-2016, 1:48 PM

I,too ,found getting the basic bevel the most difficult aspect of sharpening. Before I retired I used a pedestal grinder daily,so t wasn't from lack of practice. With some cheap grinders, the motor itself is out of balance so it's hopeless just trueing the wheel. If you have to chase a grinder, tie a rope to it and hang it overboard, then it will have a use.
I'm getting old, so I use jigs. The closer I can get to that chosen bevel, the less work honing an edge is.
On the belt sander I use the "blue" 120grit belts. No discoloured edges or round flats. But I had to modify the rest to get my angle and up the HP to 1/4.

Andrew Pitonyak

08-15-2016, 4:17 PM

I don't entirely disagree with you, since you are going to work as you see fit. However, the ones who makes the blades are selling to at least two different groups of consumers. On one end of the spectrum is the relative rookie (like me) who aren't quite there in terms of knowledge, skill, experience and all the rest - we need some help with a great starting point. We will learn as we go, from experience of others (thank you SMC), and from our own failures. At the other end are those who know exactly what works for them and how they deal with a new tool/blade/gadget/etc. They don't know who the buyer is - necessarily - so they need to advise that "final honing may be necessary".

And that is why my first plane was a Lie Nielsen. I attempted research and what I read that I needed to do to make it ready to work scared me.... All I wanted to do was to plane a bit off the side of a door so that it would close. And of course the plane showed up usable.

If you have to ask if you need to hone a Lee Valley blade before use, then the correct answer is likely "no". If you are an expert in sharpening, you might get an improvement over what they did. Especially as a new user, at least try it first as a reference point for what Lee Valley considers sharp and usable out of the box.

I keep improving, but have not spent enough time dwelling on sharpening to become as good as I would like to be.

Mike Holbrook

08-18-2016, 7:23 AM

Sharpening is just about always a popular topic here on SMC, and for good reason.

Certainly one can simply hone on the existing bevel on a PM-V11 blade and obtain a very sharp blade without a great deal of work. This assumes the person doing the honing has the skill set or guide to hold the blade at the given angle the bevel was ground at from the factory.

Depending on what/how the person may want to use the blade there are a multitude of bevel angles, micro bevels, cambers....that may make the tool better at a given job. Micro bevels can be added relatively easily, particularly if one has a guide or tool rest on a grinder.

There are quite a few fans of hollow grinding here on SMC. The advantage of this technique is it makes an edge that is very easy to hand hone on stones that remove minimal amounts of metal. The hollow creates two edges, one on either side of the bevel. These two edges allow one to balance the blade on those two edges for honing, maintaining the blade at exactly the right angle. Further the thin or cutting side of the blade is very easy to maintain with minimal effort as the hollow does not have to be worked to sharpen the blade.

There are also those who camber some, many or all of the blades they use in their planes. Cambering can enable the user to take larger quantities of wood or largely eliminate plane tracks.

Cambering, changing the bevel angle and hollow grinding are much easier to do with some sort of grinding system. The resulting bevel produced with some or all of these methods may be even easier to maintain than the bevel that comes on a new blade.

bridger berdel

08-18-2016, 1:53 PM

smooth flat river Rock

Lol. Tell me more....

James Pallas

08-19-2016, 10:40 AM

Lol. Tell me more....
Hi Bridger, it's simply my way of not getting in on any lectures. My sharpening techniques may seem unconventional to many, however it works for me. The subject was about pmv 11 which I use and can sharpen easily. No need to explain how I go about it. Makes me laugh also.
Jim

bridger berdel

08-19-2016, 6:09 PM

Hi Bridger, it's simply my way of not getting in on any lectures. My sharpening techniques may seem unconventional to many, however it works for me. The subject was about pmv 11 which I use and can sharpen easily. No need to explain how I go about it. Makes me laugh also.
Jim

Thing is, I have a couple of stones in my... erm.... working set.... that were picked up on hikes and such. Some have been marginal, but a couple have proven to be good stones. One is a very close approximation of a surgical black.

James Pallas

08-19-2016, 7:27 PM

Thing is, I have a couple of stones in my... erm.... working set.... that were picked up on hikes and such. Some have been marginal, but a couple have proven to be good stones. One is a very close approximation of a surgical black.
Bridger you should be very careful. The edge police may come after you if they find you are using rocks picked up on the trail for anything other than decorations. It may be considered some kind of crime to touch them to an edge.
Jim

bridger berdel

08-20-2016, 9:19 PM

Bridger you should be very careful. The edge police may come after you if they find you are using rocks picked up on the trail for anything other than decorations. It may be considered some kind of crime to touch them to an edge.
Jim

Well, I did spend a fair bit of time lapping them flat, so perhaps I'll get a reduced sentence....

Adam Cruea

08-20-2016, 10:37 PM

Well, I did spend a fair bit of time lapping them flat, so perhaps I'll get a reduced sentence....

Hmph. I see the sharpening wars are still in full swing.

For OP. . .toss a new blade in a plane. Does it work satisfactorily to you? If not, take it out and play with your stones.

As for sharpening, I use Sigmas, PM-V11 seems to cut well with them. I actually like to use a PM-V11 for rough work just because it holds up very well. I still prefer a high carbon Stanley blade for whispy shavings, though.