New hand tool Mfg about to open.

[Dave Lehnert]

A new place to take our money.
Crucible Tool.
Sounds like an interesting addition to the hand tool world.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Dave. I hadn't heard about this. Sounds interesting. Chris Schwartz is quite the entrepeneur (sp?), isn't he?

Another holdfast? Off my head, I'm not sure we need more sources of those. But from their viewpoint, I can see why he'd start there - gives them some foundry experience without having to engineer/manufacture moving parts right off the bat. It will be interesting to see what folks think is special about Crucible's vs Grammercy's. And how CS promotes his new company.

I wonder what niche he's trying to fill - price maybe? Quality is pretty well covered by LN and others. Unless maybe there's old stuff he's aware of that is useful, but not made anywhere else? (That's what he did with Lost Arts Press, so maybe that kind of niche is available in hand tools.)

Should be interesting to see.....
Fred

[Mel Fulks]

I wish them good luck and reccommend that they check to see if that logo is owned by some underwear company.

[John Glendening]

I'm a fan of Chris, but I find it rather puzzling that there is something so wrong that it has to be fixed. I wish him and his partners the best of luck, but as they say - trust, but verify. Trust that they are serious about this, but verify that the product and/or price point is so much better that it is irresistible.

[Bill Houghton]

I wish them good luck and reccommend that they check to see if that logo is owned by some underwear company.


Or a company that makes hot pants?

[brian zawatsky]

Should be interesting. There's a lot of hype that follows CS around, not that he isn't a very intelligent guy because he certainly is.

His holdfast design is visually more appealing than Grammercy's, but Grammercy's work awesome and they are CHEAP! Unless he's hitting an attractive price point, I'm not seeing where he's going with this.

Maybe he's counting on his quasi-celebrity status in the world of hand tool woodworking to sell tools. It may actually work.

[Frank J Hall]

It is a nice looking holdfast, and not as smooth a shaft as the gramercy. However, I get the feeling it will be overpriced and followed with a description and/or blog post that makes you feel almost guilty for buying it at the price he is selling at. That being said, Ive purchased several books from his company and really liked them and thought they were high quality.

[Jason Dean]

I for one welcome more competition in the hand tool market! I continue to appreciate Chris's unbiased perspective when it comes to techniques and tool reviews. That said, I fear that it may become difficult to remain disinterested when one owns a business completing in the same space.

[Patrick Chase]

I for one welcome more competition in the hand tool market! I continue to appreciate Chris's unbiased perspective when it comes to techniques and tool reviews.

IMO there is no such thing as an "unbiased" reviewer (we all have opinions, and woodworkers seem to have more and stronger ones than average), and I think Chris is on the opinionated end of the spectrum if anything. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'd never take what he writes as neutral...

[george wilson]

I had a look at the cast iron holdfast at Crucible Tool. I hope it is malleable iron(cast iron which has had the excessively high brittle carbon "baked" out of it at high heat for hours in a furnace). Cast iron is,of course,brittle,and a holdfast is subject to high bending forces when firmly whacked into a hole in a bench to clamp a board. The shank on this one looks pretty skinny. I could not tell how large the holdfast was,or how thick the shank is,without a reference item,like a ruler ( a rule if steel),in the picture.

My own hand made hold fast was made for me in Williamsburg in 1970 by an excellent old time blacksmith who worked in the maintenance area. He really did good work,and was never replaced with anyone approaching his skill.

My holdfast,and TRUE holdfasts are made of forged steel and have a TAPERED shank. They also have a 90º crook in them,but with a really well filled in throat on the inside of the crook. Filled in with forge welding. But,not a rounded out crook joint. There is no beveling under the swan neck,nor a deep looking groove under the neck. I guess that was done to save weight? I'll prefer to keep the strength and weight of mine(it really isn't THAT heavy!). Mine never failed to grab and hold like a vise when whacked in with a large wooden mallet. Don't go whacking a cast iron holdfast with a steel hammer!!!!! Or any other,for that matter. It mushrooms the tops of even the steel ones,eventually making them work harden and break. I have seen otherwise good woodworkers whacking in their already mushroomed steel forged holdfasts with steel hammers. They need to learn more about metal. Some just seem to have no regard for metal,so focused are they on wood. But,we could not have a modern World without metal.

I have never seen an old one made with those bevels or the groove. But I haven't seen them all,of course. Just the ones made from Diderot used in the museum,and antiques I have seen.

There was no mention I could see as to if the cast iron was malleable iron or not. Malleable iron has been used for many,many years in heavy duty C clamps. I mean large ones. Malleable iron planes do not break when dropped(though they can dent on corners or bend some!)

Unfortunately,you,as woodworkers only,are stuck with what you can buy. But,as unseemly as they look(but,remember,I am a bit of an authenticity nut when it comes to old type tools like holdfasts),I would recommend those curved over holdfasts made of a round STEEL rod. They will not crack in the throat,or break in their shank.

[Curt Harms]

Should be interesting. There's a lot of hype that follows CS around, not that he isn't a very intelligent guy because he certainly is.

His holdfast design is visually more appealing than Grammercy's, but Grammercy's work awesome and they are CHEAP! Unless he's hitting an attractive price point, I'm not seeing where he's going with this.

Maybe he's counting on his quasi-celebrity status in the world of hand tool woodworking to sell tools. It may actually work.


Norm sold a lot of Delta & Porter-Cable.:)

[Prashun Patel]

How exciting!!!

Not every business needs to fill an unserved, and unique niche. Sometimes just being passionate and good at it is enough.

[Mark AJ Allen]

I think the interesting part of this new venture will be to see exactly what CS believes are the best features to go into these tools and very likely accompanied by an explanation why; I'm sure there are lots of juicy details that have been lost in the historical record that he wants to resurrect, or if he hasn't found them there, re-invented them. I'm expecting many bench hardware and holding accessories; looking forward to a toothed planning stop (just a hunch it's in the mix).

That's what I suspect, based on his blog posts so far, that this is going. The Gramercy holdfast works, but is there ways it can be improved? Seems to be where CS is going. Unfortunately, with small ventures like this, they have to roll R&D into the price of what could only be a niche market; I can't see how they will be able to offer prices in the range of what other holdfast vendors are charging.

Personally, I would love to see a well-made sector or Fibonacci divider that can lock into position, but I'm not sure that's the kind of tools CS is going to target.

[george wilson]

Such a divider should not be difficult to produce,with just a few jigs to make sure the holes for rivets are drilled in the correct places,and points are centered on the legs.

[Jim Koepke]

The Gramercy holdfast works, but is there ways it can be improved?

Haven't there been a lot of folks who have had problems with the Gramercy holdfasts?

I am not sure I would be up for buying another pair of holdfasts. My current pair came from Harry Strasil Jr, may he rest in peace.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Such a divider should not be difficult to produce,with just a few jigs to make sure the holes for rivets are drilled in the correct places,and points are centered on the legs.

The Fibonacci dividers I made would be easy to make lock by exchanging one of the rivets for a small bolt, a couple of washers and a wing nut.

jtk

[george wilson]

You guys don't want to be making those. They don't work,don't you know?:)

[Dave Kelley]

I recently (past couple of months) received hold fasts from Gramercy and they work fine. Their "design" isn't anything special, just some steel wire (extremely thick, think Golden Gate bridge) bent. They aren't fancy but they work and are cheap. I would love some custom made ones from the 70's but I don't see them like that in the thrift shops, garage sales, and antique shops like I do my old planes.

As for CS making tools. I can't even seem to find the site. If I go to what I think it is it wants some password to enter which is odd. I think if all they have are hold fasts then it's a bit sad at this stage anyway. Looking forward to seeing if it's real quality stuff or just a revenue train.

[Simon MacGowen]

Chris Schwarz has a huge following and as long as he comes up with a reasonable quality product at a reasonable price, his followers will buy. Even his daughter sells a lot of wax which isn't anything new. He is very smart branching out, knowing that his brand sells. Good publisher, even better businessman, you can't argue with that.

Simon

[Paul Sidener]

IMO there is no such thing as an "unbiased" reviewer (we all have opinions, and woodworkers seem to have more and stronger ones than average), and I think Chris is on the opinionated end of the spectrum if anything. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'd never take what he writes as neutral...

I find it interesting that Chris has said that now that he is going into the tool business, he will no longer review tools. I will say that I valued his opinion, but I didn't always agree with him. He does what works for him. Sometimes I do things differently.

[Tim Cooper Louisiana]

I will miss his reviews as well. I think he kept to a pretty high ethical standard. If I recall correctly, he personally purchased the hand tools he reviewed. I wouldn't expect them to have a large offering of products, as he won't borrow money or go into debt. I expect what they make will be high quality, along the line of Benchcrafted.

[Stewie Simpson]

This was worth a chuckle in the comments section; the memories run deep.

azezo1 says:
August 7, 2016 at 1:51 pm (https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/07/coming-next-month-crucible-tool/#comment-40681)
I feel like this is one of those gag posts.

Reply (https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/07/coming-next-month-crucible-tool/?replytocom=40681#respond)




https://i0.wp.com/graph.facebook.com/v2.2/1647967790/picture?q=type%3Dlarge%26_md5%3Da9422c6e5849efb05a 3a2f8b6fc60c2b&resize=40%2C40 Chuck Anderson (https://www.facebook.com/app_scoped_user_id/1647967790/) says:
August 7, 2016 at 2:28 pm (https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/07/coming-next-month-crucible-tool/#comment-40685)
I was thinking the same thing.

Reply (https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/07/coming-next-month-crucible-tool/?replytocom=40685#respond)
https://2.gravatar.com/avatar/59f22159dce3611e29a2db80d9c489da?s=60&d=https%3A%2F%2Fs0.wp.com%2Fi%2Fmu.gif&r=PG raney says:
August 7, 2016 at 2:43 pm (https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/07/coming-next-month-crucible-tool/#comment-40686)
Man, the guy writes me one obituary, and no one ever believes him again.
Having spent at least a couple thousand hours over the last year working on it, I can assure you this is not a joke.

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/07/coming-next-month-crucible-tool/

[Rich Riddle]

We will see how his tools work. One would expect good tool quality. He lives very close to me, and I see him in a small family owned grocer on a fairly consistent basis. He has a unique way about himself. As a side note to those of us in the military stationed around DC, there was a bar with the name Crucible outside the Navy Yard.....I believe the woodworkers who helped build it manufactured some stocks and such for the ambiance. It was interesting to drive to work and see the devises they made going in the doors.

[Mark Gibney]

That strikes me as a very wise perspective Prashun.

[george wilson]

I meant the Fibonacci calipers won't work!!:) Weren't we informed about his work?

[Phil Mueller]

I'd love to have a peek at their business strategy. Given the "Schwarz" brand, I question the totally unrelated company name. Not sure what the rationale is for not going with "Chris Schwarz Tools" for example. I think they've left a lot of established brand association on the table...and organic marketing opportunity. Why spend the extra $ to create a new brand, or create an association with Chris and the brand, when one already exists?

I also wonder if he considered just licensing his name/brand to an established quality tool manufacturer with rights to approve all design/quality.

Just seems there may have been better ways for Chris to enter the tool business...but I'm just looking in from the outside.

[Simon MacGowen]

Not sure what the rationale is for not going with "Chris Schwarz Tools" for example. I think they've left a lot of established brand association on the table...

While Chris is no doubt one of the prime drivers behind this new venture, he is not the sole owner, like other toolmakers (Vesper, Rob Cosman, etc.) and can't just use his name as the company's name. Besides, he doesn't appear interested in just licensing his name to an existing line of goods, but rather, his intention and the company's are clearly to create something using their own inputs. You don't get the kind of control on a product development you want when you have a business licensing arrangement.

Is a holdfast the right thing to kick off the opening of a new business? Hard to tell until the details including the price come out. They may have come up with a holdfast that fills a void...I would hold my judgment, even though I am not in the market for any more holdfasts. But as I pointed out, his followers and supporters will buy it if it is right, even if they may already have more than enough holdfasts.

Simon

[Phil Mueller]

Even though he's not the sole owner, he is the known brand. In a business case like this, egos need to be set aside.

[Glen Canaday]

Interesting.

Not sure about holdfasts either as my Gramercy ones work just fine (and can lift my bench when I have one smacked down), but those old Millers Falls bench dogs would be fantastic. I would install a pair of those in a heartbeat ... and no one else makes them.

[Frederick Skelly]

Given the "Schwarz" brand, I question the totally unrelated company name. Not sure what the rationale is for not going with "Chris Schwarz Tools" for example. I think they've left a lot of established brand association on the table...and organic marketing opportunity. Why spend the extra $ to create a new brand, or create an association with Chris and the brand, when one already exists?

Perhaps, it wasn't his original idea. Maybe it was already-established partnership that had already filed paper - if so, why would he push to change the name? Just join as a minor partner. They could even sell him a share at a discount (or give him a small stake in exchange) to have him plug the tools and contribute his ideas.

Just an idea.
Fred

[John Glendening]

How about we just watch to see how this all plays out. I think most of us know about his Lost Art Press blog; that will likely be where most of the real info originates.

[paul cottingham]

I for one welcome more competition in the hand tool market! I continue to appreciate Chris's unbiased perspective when it comes to techniques and tool reviews. That said, I fear that it may become difficult to remain disinterested when one owns a business completing in the same space.
He has made it clear he is no longer going to review tools.

[paul cottingham]

I'd love to have a peek at their business strategy. Given the "Schwarz" brand, I question the totally unrelated company name. Not sure what the rationale is for not going with "Chris Schwarz Tools" for example. I think they've left a lot of established brand association on the table...and organic marketing opportunity. Why spend the extra $ to create a new brand, or create an association with Chris and the brand, when one already exists?

I also wonder if he considered just licensing his name/brand to an established quality tool manufacturer with rights to approve all design/quality.

Just seems there may have been better ways for Chris to enter the tool business...but I'm just looking in from the outside.

i think it's smart. Then people will focus on the products, and not bitching about Schwarz' inflated ego. Which is exactly what I suspect a great deal of this thread would be about, frankly. Before anyone can say it, I'm not a huge fan of Schwarz, but I do support his endeavors, as I believe in supporting small businesses, and I suspect I'm a bit of an anarchist (for the most part) myself.

[Phil Mueller]

Points well taken. Without knowing the background, it's just fun bantor. I'm a fan of small business/cottage industries and support them whenever possible. Spending most of my career on brand strategy and market positioning for small and Fortune 500 companies, I only wish them the best.

[Tyler A Anderson]

I like Chris, and I would think he will put out good stuff, but agree wit the others, the hold fasts would have to be a lot better to get me to change from the Gramercy ones, which I like and are really reasonably priced.

[Dave Lehnert]

Take a look at his blog.
Some info about the new company and Daed Toolworks outside Indianapolis

[Frederick Skelly]

Just saw this on CS blog. It answers a couple questions I had, anyway.....
"We think there are a lot of tools that need to be made that aren’t currently on the market. Manufacturing those tools will keep us busy for at least the next five years and probably beyond. We probably will have to hire employees eventually and we might grow more than I anticipate. But our core philosophy is not to steal market share away from anyone. We think there’s a lot of room for other toolmakers to supply the needs of woodworkers."

[paul cottingham]

They are a 1" holdfast. I thought the the Gramercy holdfasts (I have 2) were only in 3/4".

[Patrick Chase]

Random reaction from looking at the pictures on his blog: Haas VMCs make me drool.

Looks like they bought a brand spanking new TM-2P (http://www.haascnc.com/mt_spec1.asp?id=TM-2P&webID=TOOLROOM_MILL_VMC#gsc.tab=0), yours today for the low low price of $38K + extras. It would appear that they're planning to make much larger and more tightly toleranced stuff than just those holdfasts (TM-2P is fairly slow as VMCs go, but has a 40x16x16 working volume. All of the Haas units are capable of pretty tight tolerances)

[Frederick Skelly]

I second that drool. Haas makes nice stuff. Knew it was pricey, but didnt realize it was $38 large. Well, I guess Old Man Haas has to pay for his Formula 1 team somehow..... :D

[Patrick Chase]

I second that drool. Haas makes nice stuff. Knew it was pricey, but didnt realize it was $38 large. Well, I guess Old Man Haas has to pay for his Formula 1 team somehow..... :D

Nah, he uses his tax money (http://www.vcstar.com/news/haas-automation-owner-gets-2-years-in--prison-for-tax-fraud-ep-374771183-352747731.html) for that.

Seriously, the Haas VMCs are priced about par for the course IIRC.

EDIT: Added link as the reference was too obscure

[Craig Regan]

I agree Schwarz did some great tool reviews, but, does that qualify him to be tool designer? After all, Siskel and Eibert reviewed 100's of movies yet I've never seen either one attempt making a film? This is the conundrum of the critic, they critique what they themselves can not create. I wish him luck, Should be interesting stuff.

[Frederick Skelly]

Nah, he uses his tax money (http://www.vcstar.com/news/haas-automation-owner-gets-2-years-in--prison-for-tax-fraud-ep-374771183-352747731.html) for that.

EDIT: Added link as the reference was too obscure

:D:D:D Id forgotten about that!

[Tony Zaffuto]

Random reaction from looking at the pictures on his blog: Haas VMCs make me drool.

Looks like they bought a brand spanking new TM-2P (http://www.haascnc.com/mt_spec1.asp?id=TM-2P&webID=TOOLROOM_MILL_VMC#gsc.tab=0), yours today for the low low price of $38K + extras. It would appear that they're planning to make much larger and more tightly toleranced stuff than just those holdfasts (TM-2P is fairly slow as VMCs go, but has a 40x16x16 working volume. All of the Haas units are capable of pretty tight tolerances)

You gents need to visit my plant, if ever going across I-80. Website is "Metaltech-pm.com". Got a half dozen CNC's to support our core powder metal business.

[Tony Zaffuto]

As far as Crucible, I wish them well: everyone should start a business before being allowed to comment!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You gents need to visit my plant, if ever going across I-80. Website is "Metaltech-pm.com". Got a half dozen CNC's to support our core powder metal business.

Thats very cool. I bet you never worry about where to get an obscure part- you just go to the shop and make it! Do you ever make your own woodworking tools?

[Brian Holcombe]

As far as Crucible, I wish them well: everyone should start a business before being allowed to comment!

Temporary insanity, long term repercussions. :D

[george wilson]

$38K is pretty cheap for a decent machine.

[Tony Zaffuto]

$38K is pretty cheap for a decent machine.

Haas, ready to work, are closer to $100K (I have two of their cnc mills). I have a number of other machining centers, including Mazak, but Haas have been the most trouble free.

My pricy equipment are presses and furnaces: entry is well over $250k a pop. Needless to say, I don't waste time on making my own stuff, though I've had one of my toolmakers flatten plane soles and square the sides.

[Frederick Skelly]

You gents need to visit my plant, if ever going across I-80. Website is "Metaltech-pm.com". Got a half dozen CNC's to support our core powder metal business.

Thanks Tony! If I get over there, I'd sure enjoy seeing it!
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

Haas, ready to work, are closer to $100K (I have two of their cnc mills). I have a number of other machining centers, including Mazak, but Haas have been the most trouble free.

My pricy equipment are presses and furnaces: entry is well over $250k a pop. Needless to say, I don't waste time on making my own stuff, though I've had one of my toolmakers flatten plane soles and square the sides.

I think that a lot of people don't realize how much up-front time is involved in creating the first article of a CNCed part. As you imply it's near-certain that buying the part from somebody else who's already set up to make it would be more economical than wasting your own peoples' time on that.

Say. I see that you have double-disc grinders, and I have some lapping plates.... (just kidding obviously - I have a local shop that I work with when it gets beyond what I can handle with granite and SiC)

[Patrick Chase]

Haas, ready to work, are closer to $100K (I have two of their cnc mills). I have a number of other machining centers, including Mazak, but Haas have been the most trouble free.

Note that the one they got is a "toolroom mill", which are lower-cost, lower-speed machines (7 hp or so, 400 ipm rapids).

The one in the picture on your site looks like a DM1, which is a higher-end "production" machine (15+ hp, 2400 ipm rapids, $65K + extras per Haas).

[Tony Zaffuto]

Note that the one they got is a "toolroom mill", which are lower-cost, lower-speed machines (7 hp or so, 400 ipm rapids).

The one in the picture on your site looks like a DM1, which is a higher-end "production" machine (15+ hp, 2400 ipm rapids, $65K + extras per Haas).

I have one with a 35,000 rpm spindle for hard face turning.

Anyone out my way is welcome anytime.

[Patrick Chase]

On a semi-related note, this has caused me to read through Raney's blog more deeply, and I'm discovering that I share his sensibilities in a lot of respects (not just about woodworking). I highly recommended his writings.

I would never pay the price tag for one of his planes, but they're much more appealing to me and undoubtedly a lot more usable in the real world than, say, Bridge City.

The fact that he holds Schwartz in such high esteem makes me wonder if I need to reevaluate my opinion of the man. Nobody's perfect after all, and perhaps I've focused too much on his negatives...

[Greg Keller]

I could see them turning out a high quality, but not overly embellished thing that is either not being produced currently at a high quality, like an eggbeater drill, or a quality product at prices that are a step below the super high end stuff like a vesper bevel gauge or something.

I like that they said they are not trying to steal market share but rather fill gaps. So my guess is that the holdfast will be more expensive than a Gramercy but less than a blacksmith forged version.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Greg and welcome to the Creek.

I have not been following close to this since my grandkids have been visiting I've had other priorities.

I do recall someone mentioning the new holdfasts will have 1" shaft. That doesn't seem to presently be a popular model on the market. It would also justify a moderately higher price.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

I like that they said they are not trying to steal market share but rather fill gaps. So my guess is that the holdfast will be more expensive than a Gramercy but less than a blacksmith forged version.

Those are good thoughts Greg. It would make sense to aim for that niche in this case.

I second Jim's welcome! Glad to have you with us!
Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

Small world; the company Crucible Tools LLC sounds very similar to Crucible Industries LLC.

Crucible Industries LLC roots trace back to 1776, when the Naylor and Sanderson Steel Mill was established in Sheffield, England. A century later, the company – then known as Sanderson Brothers - was exporting increasing quantities of tool steel to America and it was decided to establish a steelmaking plant in Syracuse, New York. https://www.crucible.com/Index.aspx#

The U.S. Civil War; 1861 - 1865. http://www.historyplace.com/civilwar/

Manufacturing this tool has been a remarkable challenge in foundry work. But after five months of tests and trials with a patternmaker and a foundry (which has been in business since before the Civil War), we have our first production holdfasts in hand. https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/07/coming-next-month-crucible-tool/

[Jim Koepke]

It just dawned on my, the first Lie-Nielsen tool event I went to was at the Crucible School of Industrial Arts in Oakland, California:

http://thecrucible.org/?gclid=CMPQsPiXwc4CFQ5rfgodMG0GaQ

Most likely no connection, but the name seemed familiar.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Small world; the company Crucible Tools LLC sounds very similar to Crucible Industries LLC.

Crucible Industries LLC roots trace back to 1776, when the Naylor and Sanderson Steel Mill was established in Sheffield, England. A century later, the company – then known as Sanderson Brothers - was exporting increasing quantities of tool steel to America and it was decided to establish a steelmaking plant in Syracuse, New York. https://www.crucible.com/Index.aspx#

The U.S. Civil War; 1861 - 1865. http://www.historyplace.com/civilwar/

Manufacturing this tool has been a remarkable challenge in foundry work. But after five months of tests and trials with a patternmaker and a foundry (which has been in business since before the Civil War), we have our first production holdfasts in hand. https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/07/coming-next-month-crucible-tool/

It's possible - If I started a high-end tool maker and needed to choose a foundry partner, they'd be on the short list. Crucible were very early onto the powdered metallurgy scene, and make a range of super-durable (and super-imposible-to-hone unless you use diamonds) tool steels. If you've seen references to CPM-3V or CPM-10V (for example in Derek's chisel tests) those are both from Crucible.

[Derek Cohen]

The use of the name "crucible" is quite common. A crucible is a container for melting metal. Many companies have chosen it for this reason, with the connotation of creating handmade or metal items.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

The "Final Problem" at USMC recruit training is a three day event called the Crucible.......anyone here care to try it?

Might be a bit much, just to get a Steak & Egg Breakfast.....

[Patrick Chase]

The use of the name "crucible" is quite common. A crucible is a container for melting metal. Many companies have chosen it for this reason, with the connotation of creating handmade or metal items.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Very true. Along the same lines in the 18th and 19th Centuries "crucible steel" referred to the product (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible_steel#History_of_production_in_England) of what was for its time a very high-quality process.

[Patrick Chase]

The "Final Problem" at USMC recruit training is a three day event called the Crucible.......anyone here care to try it?

Might be a bit much, just to get a Steak & Egg Breakfast.....

That isn't enough enough sleep or food for me, these days :-)

EDIT: I just realize that could be interpreted as implying I was in the USMC. I wasn't. Like everybody I know a fair number of people who've been through that. Many thanks to those here who did serve.

[Frederick Skelly]

The "Final Problem" at USMC recruit training is a three day event called the Crucible.......anyone here care to try it?

Might be a bit much, just to get a Steak & Egg Breakfast.....

Yup. The folks I know who went through it say it was pretty tough.

[Bruce Haugen]

The "Final Problem" at USMC recruit training is a three day event called the Crucible.......anyone here care to try it?

Might be a bit much, just to get a Steak & Egg Breakfast.....

Seems to me I did.

[steven c newman]

Yep, and mine took place outside of Quang Tre City, in Jan 72....mine lasted a week...then a Mr. Johnny Walker and I had a party...

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks for serving, guys. I appreciate it.
Fred

[george wilson]

Very true. Along the same lines in the 18th and 19th Centuries "crucible steel" referred to the product (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible_steel#History_of_production_in_England) of what was for its time a very high-quality process.

20th. C. also.

[Greg Keller]

Thanks for the welcome guys, I've been lurking for a while as I slowly fall down the rabbit hole of hand tool woodworking.

[Dave Anderson NH]

The Crucible was instituted after my time as a member of Uncle Sugar's Misguided Children. One of our last events was Elliot's Beach but that was just a forced march and campout.:D Of course the island was only 8 weeks instead of the normal 13 after Tet in 1968. The Corps needed more 0311s and 0331s as fast as they could get them.

Dave 0331 B 1/7 1968
1st Combined Action Group 1969 1-1-4 Actual

[Patrick Chase]

The Crucible was instituted after my time as a member of Uncle Sugar's Misguided Children. One of our last events was Elliot's Beach but that was just a forced march and campout.:D Of course the island was only 8 weeks instead of the normal 13 after Tet in 1968. The Corps needed more 0311s and 0331s as fast as they could get them.

Dave 0331 B 1/7 1968
1st Combined Action Group 1969 1-1-4 Actual

I thought you guys were *all* 0311s. "Every Marine a rifleman" and all that :-).

[Dave Anderson NH]

Actually Patrick the Corps breaks down grunts into separate specialties, mine, 0331 is a machine gunner or pig carrier if you will. The M60 gun was know as the pig.

[Patrick Chase]

Actually Patrick the Corps breaks down grunts into separate specialties, mine, 0331 is a machine gunner or pig carrier if you will. The M60 gun was know as the pig.

Yeah, I looked up your MOS before I posted. It was a joke based on a well-known slogan, sorry I wasn't clearer.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Don't worry, I carried an M16 for about half of my tour but never actually had an 0311 MOS as rifleman so I was indeed a rifleman. In reality it wasn't an M16 but rather an XM16E1 since we always had the old crappy stuff.

[Hilton Ralphs]

They may have come up with a holdfast that fills a void...I would hold my judgment, even though I am not in the market for any more holdfasts.


Very good Simon, hope I'm not the only one that noticed this.

For the record, I bought a tin of wax from The Anarchist's Daughter. Very nice smell.

[Jason Lester]

Has anyone seen these since they were released? Requiring a 1" hole versus a 3/4" is a deal breaker for me. It's strange since both his workbench books extol the virtues of using round 3/4" holes everywhere since there are so many add-ons and jigs that work with them. I was waiting to see them, but ordered the Gramercy's after seeing the size and price.

[Simon MacGowen]

The Gramercy's are the best deal in town hands down. Some reported problems that I've never come across with three different bench set-ups of different bench thicknesses. None of the woodworkers I know who use Gramercy's experience any problem with them.

All my bench accessories are based on 3/4" dia. holes and I see no advantages of switching to 1" dia. holes even when I build my next bench. To say that 1" dia. holes are better because historically that was the way to do it is pure advertising material.

The first two tools -- 1" dia. holdfasts and fancy dividers -- released by Crucible add little value to the woodworking tool segment. If they were produced and marketed by some other less known makers other than one that is associated with Chris Schwarz, the maker could expect big troubles with their sales.

Simon

[paul cottingham]

My gramercys don't hold very well, but I don't have a very thick bench. If I had the money, I would buy one of the Crucible holdfasts without hesitation. As it is, I depend on my veritas screw down hold down as a result. And it's a bit of a pain.

some day, when my hands aren't bugging me too much, I'm going to dimple my Gramercy with a punch, and see if it helps.

[Stewie Simpson]

Its an interesting strategy by Schwartz to manufacture 1" holdfasts. If his goal was to generate a needs based market, he is off to a bad start imo. Most existing workbenches out there are deigned for 3/4" holdfasts. I cant imagine many willing to plug all those existing holes in order to enlarge them out to 1".

Stewie;

[chase standifer]

If you check out the crucible blog he discusses the advantages of a 1" holdfast and how to ream out existing dog holes without needing to plug them

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I hope things go well for them, but in all honesty I think it will be quite a while before I pick up any $135 holdfasts.

[brian zawatsky]

I hope things go well for them, but in all honesty I think it will be quite a while before I pick up any $135 holdfasts.

Holy crap!! $135???

I paid just over 30 bucks for a pair of Gramercy's holdfasts and they couldn't be better. I can think of a literal TON of tools I'd rather spend 135 bucks on.

[Frederick Skelly]

Well, I won't pay it. But plenty of folks will. I mean, guys buy heavily priced tools all the time. How many times have we debated the merits of Bridge City, Woodpeckers, etc, etc, etc. If stuff is made well, some guys will buy it despite its cost - to have what they perceive to be "the best", for bragging rights, or simply because they just plain like the tool and could afford it.

[Phil Mueller]

I know this may be a bit nit picky, but the holdfast "instructions" indicates they will all be different (hand forged) and needs to be "fit" to the hole. So if you buy two or three....do you need to remember which hole was fitted for each holdfast?

The "fitting" process seems a bit old craftsman romantic, but not very practical.

[Frederick Skelly]

I know this may be a bit nit picky, but the holdfast "instructions" indicates they will all be different (hand forged) and needs to be "fit" to the hole. So if you buy two or three....do you need to remember which hole was fitted for each holdfast?

The "fitting" process seems a bit old craftsman romantic, but not very practical.

I hear you. But aren't there a few blacksmiths left today who hand forge holdfasts? Seems to me I recall at least a couple mentioned here over the years. (Blackhorse?) Don't people who buy theirs have the same concern? How do they deal with it?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything - your point is very valid. I'm just not sure that it's unique to Schwartz's holdfast.

[Phil Mueller]

Not taken that way at all Frederick, and you're right, it wouldn't seem to be a unique situation.

May be an issue for Crucible when you consider one competitor, Black Bear Forge (hand forged holdfasts) sells 3/4" and 1" with no instructions to fit. They just indicate if they don't hold, they'll adjust the holdfast (not say you need to adjust the hole). Crucible has the most expensive holdfast I can find on the net, and it's ability to work is placed squarely on the customer...not to mention unique holes for each holdfast. I don't know.

[John Glendening]

Yep, the 1" holdfasts are different - at least in modern times - and with that comes risk for Crucible, but not you or I. Either make 1"holes or 3/4" holes, it's a choice.

According to their tests (scientific or not) the 1" holdfasts tend to hold very well on a variety of bench thicknesses. There are some posts here and elsewhere about some 3/4" holdfasts not holding so well under a variety of conditions, including thickness of the bench top; some, not a lot, and it's kinda sporadic. Either way, the science isn't quite there yet as to "why" each size does or doesn't work consistently.

I hope they have success, they're taking a big leap across a wide space, and every new business deserves a chance. I'll keep watching, and maybe start saving some more pennies.

[Brian Holcombe]

Good chance they will catch on.

[peter Joseph]

If the shank was 3/4" I'd definitely buy some as my gramercy's dont hold in my bench unless I scuff them up with 50 grit after every 4-5 uses.

Even if I were to enlarge my bench holes to 1", who has 1" dogs??

[John Schtrumpf]

I think Sjobergs Elite workbenches come with 1" round dog holes (a ready made market).

[Hilton Ralphs]

Even if I were to enlarge my bench holes to 1", who has 1" dogs??

I think CS's point is that you only need a couple of holes at most for hold fasts. He's not suggesting you enlarge your cheese board bench top holes at all. So the front edge dog holes should remain 3/4" as well as those used for planing stops.

[J. Greg Jones]

(Myself? I'm darn glad that set of 3 Dividers for $120 is sold out. I'd like to have a nice set of dividers. :eek:See what I mean - eye of the beholder.)
The dividers are not sold in a set-they make only a 6" at $120 each.

[Frederick Skelly]

The dividers are not sold in a set-they make only a 6" at $120 each.

Gulp. Misunderstood that. :o Thanks Greg. I wouldn't be buying the dividers either.

[Prashun Patel]

Paul have you sanded your shafts with 80 grit? That and not being afraid to whack them very firmly has made my gramercies work well.

[Rob Luter]

Paul have you sanded your shafts with 80 grit? That and not being afraid to whack them very firmly has made my gramercies work well.

My experience as well.

[paul cottingham]

Paul have you sanded your shafts with 80 grit? That and not being afraid to whack them very firmly has made my gramercies work well.

Live never been afraid to pound the crap out of them. I suspect dimpling them is next.

[Simon MacGowen]

Its an interesting strategy by Schwartz to manufacture 1" holdfasts. If his goal was to generate a needs based market, he is off to a bad start imo. Most existing workbenches out there are deigned for 3/4" holdfasts. I cant imagine many willing to plug all those existing holes in order to enlarge them out to 1".

Stewie;

As I see it, their strategy is that of strike the iron while it is hot. Chris Schwarz has a huge following -- no one would deny it -- unless he "represents" other makers (as once Norm Abram did), he is not using one of his valuable assets (name recognition). Why not make products in addition to books and sell them? It is smart business and he deserves it.

I do hope that he (and his partners) will prove me wrong and not just come up with expensive or fancy tools that really cater for those with deep pockets or those who collect boutique tools. At least the LAP books mostly are reasonably priced. No matter how you cut it, a $120 divider is not going to be seen in my shop. I'd use that money for hoarding more lumber which, unlike a boutique divider, is essential for my coming projects.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

He says he's in business to fill a niche. I can see that he will fill that niche with many who are building new benches or those who are not turned off by reaming the holes larger. Frankly if I did not own LN holdfasts I would strongly consider those as they're quite nice looking.

[Prashun Patel]

Frankly, $130 isn't that much for a holdfast. You only need one or two. Not 10. I would easily pay that much for a vise and a holdfast can be as versatile.

Buy it or don't buy it. It's easy to be an armchair critic. I am certain he has given way more thought to this than any of us have sitting on our toilets. Use one before crapping on it. The holdfast, that is.

Good luck to him.

[Simon MacGowen]

Frankly, $130 isn't that much for a holdfast.

Good luck to him.

Depending on what you are trying to compare with. A handplane? That's peanut. But not when I can almost get two (2) pairs of Gramercy's for less than half the price of one 1" dia. holdfast. We all have expensive tools, but I wish Crucible will be more like LAP that caters to a bigger segment of woodworkers. Crucible would sure like to hear from its potential customers even if the views may not be music to its ears, and not just showers of praises and admiration as it kicked off its new business with two more high-end tools.

Simon

[Mike Brady]

Crucible may have miscalculated the need/demand for an expensive holdfast that fits no-one's bench. I have seen no reviews or owner's experiences yet. Last I heard, big buck holdfasts were supposed to be hand-forged and had the puny 3/4" shafts. The guys involved are three smart gentlemen, for sure. I wonder if in the rush to come to market, they skipped the step where some field testing was done to get some feedback before production started. Chris certainly knows that routine because he tested the LN honing guide for a couple of years before it went on sale.

[John Gornall]

If it was my business I'd seriously consider making and selling both a 1" and a 3/4" holdfast.

[David Carroll]

I'm pretty sure that the price of Crusible's holdfasts has more to do with production costs, adhering to traditional designs, employing local manufacturers, and providing a living wage for himself and his employees, than trying to meet some particular price point.

The Grammercy holdfasts are designed to be made on production wire-forming equipment, which is far less labor intensive, once setup and programming is done. So they can run in production quantities, keeping costs far lower
while still turning out a quality (if not traditionally made) product.

IMO They both have their place. I'm glad Crucible is doing this and I'm sure I'll get around to buying something they make. Even though I could get something similar cheaper, I like supporting craft industry when I can, to me it's more than just about price.

DC

[Mark AJ Allen]

This could be true; I'm not sure this tool fills a need to the market; if it does fill a need, it seems uneconomical. You can search the net to see what blacksmiths are charging for a hand forged one; it's much less and also offering 1" shafts. I checked a local blacksmith ... his prices were inline with what I saw being charged by the online smiths. Are these blacksmiths undervaluing their time? Are their materials cheap? Are there flaws in the hand forged vs. cast holdfasts? Rest assured, a few of them must be doing this for a living wage. I can't get my head around the price difference between a hand forged ones vs. the Crucible Tools version. Is the comparison between the hand forged to the CT version a ridiculous one? The CT site doesn't sell me on that value add over the hand forged versions from other vendors.

The divider is a different story, THAT is a thing of beauty. Adjustable tension, good form, a nice design and they throw in the tool to adjust to the tension while they are at it. While it's still expensive compared to other dividers, it differentiates itself in finish, style and function. I can see the value add there.

I like supporting craft industries, but I'm still going to pay attention to all the factors I normally do when choosing a vendor to patronize, especially value.

[steven c newman]

I am sure that IF one were to look in the "Yellow Pages" or on line, one would find a LOCAL Blacksmith that could make the holdfasts for you. There was one that would even show up at a festival in Sidney, OH every year. Not sure, but I think they could make a holdfast a lot less expensive than the "big guys" would charge.....you might have to bring along a drawing as to what you want made...

[george wilson]

Some of these blacksmiths and knife makers have a forge and anvil in a corner of MOM'S back yard!!!:) No kidding! That's the impression I get from some of these laughable knife makers that they have on that new TV show about knife makers. Can't watch it. "Forged In Fire". I just recalled the name. I hear that most GOOD knife makers have turned down being on that show due to all the stuff you have to agree to

[steven c newman]

Southern Ohio School of Blacksmithing, Logan, Ohio ( Vinton County, OH?)

[paul cottingham]

I have to admit, I find it amusing when people criticize someone for making a boutique tool, yet would not think twice about spending huge amounts of money on a car, truck, or house, that isn't "functionally" any better than a cheaper one. But they are nicer.

Just my two cents.

[rob campbell]

I might be the first here to admit: I'm actually thinking about the dividers. I have a handful of sets from various makers and they mostly work fine. However, marking and measuring are my favorite elements of the craft, and I am a bit of a Jim Tolpin/proportional design freak. If you think that you can squeeze 10 uses out of these dividers over their lifespan, $12 a pop for a piece of harmonious furniture seems a pittance. Cheaper than hinges! The question is, does the adjustability and tension really balance to make them easier than the Starrett style? I'm willing be a guinea pig; Chris has been hugely helpful to me in the past and I want to support his endevour. I honestly believe he is attempting to make tools that people want, not just make a buck for himself (though I am happy if that is a byproduct).

[Derek Cohen]

While very striking, and I have no doubt they are quality, my concern with the Crucible design is that the legs can move in use. Tightening just makes it harder to adjust, and will wear metal. I use Starrett dividers, and these are adjusted with a wheel. They are a solid and reliable design. They also likely cost less than the Crucible. Is the difference a modern vs a vintage design? Certainly, with the latter design, there appear to be sacrifices to make.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Edit to add pic of Starrett ...

http://www.woodcraft.com/Images/products/600/840772_001.jpg

[Keith Mathewson]

There's a sucker born everyday, I just bought a pair of these from Seth Gould For $250 (and was happy to do so). They are handmade by a one man shop and just like the holdfasts I got from Peter Ross, they were more expensive than others but every time I pick one up I am reminded of quality of the item and the person who made it. Handtool woodworking for me is a hobby and like most any hobby the enjoyment I get doing it is the only return on the investment I'll ever see.

[Scott Winners]

I got a pair of the Crucible holdfasts, I opened the box about three hours ago. My first impression is these have exceeded my very high expectations, but it is early.

I am going to run these a while and do a more thorough write up in the Christmas to Valentine's Day window.

I know folks who have invested in other accessories to use in 3/4" holes are not going to be real interested in these. I am concerned about how cruddy the shafts are going to get, and how do I keep my hands and my work clean when handling cruddy holdfasts? I will find out.

On the other hand, if you like holdfasts and are sick and tired of singing along to "the handle on the vise goes round and round CLAMP! UMCLAMP! round and round. The face on the shoulder vise goes back and CLAMP! UNCLAMP! forth, back and forth...

I get there are some style points associated with a product like this. FWIW I drilled a 1.007 hole, both of the pair shipped to me work about the same (really nice) in the one hole I drilled.

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