Plane Order for Dimensioning Boards

[Patrick Cox]

Hello,
I just watched Rough to Ready with Rob Cosman and I was surprised to see that his process for dimensioning rough lumber was... Scrub Plane, Jointer Plane, Smoothing Plane. Is this the process that most here follow? I am starting with a Jack Plane and a Smoothing plane. Am I not starting out correctly? I thought the Jack Plane was recommended to be the first plane one should buy.

Thanks for your comments.

[Dave Kelley]

Relax Patrick....MELLOW......You'll do just fine with what you purchased in the other thread. I know you're excited, I can tell. I still get excited when I cart home a fresh bundle of lumber for a project a few weeks out. BUT....Rob has lots of planes so he can use them at will. You will soon have two. Your jack will do the scrubbing and help with jointing but your number 4 can smooth and joint if it's small pieces. You learn those two planes and you will be fine. Later you will have 10 planes and you will set them up to do what you want them to do for specific tasks.

You have a good board here and you are definitely on the right track. Just because Cosman has it doesn't mean you have to. Look at Paul Sellers, he will show you what a number 4 alone can do.

[Patrick Cox]

Relax Patrick....MELLOW......You'll do just fine with what you purchased in the other thread. I know you're excited, I can tell. I still get excited when I cart home a fresh bundle of lumber for a project a few weeks out. BUT....Rob has lots of planes so he can use them at will. You will soon have two. Your jack will do the scrubbing and help with jointing but your number 4 can smooth and joint if it's small pieces. You learn those two planes and you will be fine. Later you will have 10 planes and you will set them up to do what you want them to do for specific tasks.

You have a good board here and you are definitely on the right track. Just because Cosman has it doesn't mean you have to. Look at Paul Sellers, he will show you what a number 4 alone can do.

Breath....Breath....:D

[Dave Kelley]

What you can do right now is go buy your lumber. Even kiln dried lumber needs to acclimate so get your project list together and go shopping for that. That will get you excited for sure.

[Robin Frierson]

Taking rough lumber and making it flat and square take some practice. Many people start out with a lunchbox planer and a 6 inch joiner to do that job. I don't recall how you ended up with these planes, chisels and saw's. Is it because you wanted to go that neanderthal route. If so that's great. You can build wonderful furniture with just handtools. But for myself, personally, I would start out using electrons to dimension my lumber, while I gained experience with my planes, especially the sharpening.

[Patrick Chase]

Hello,
I just watched Rough to Ready with Rob Cosman and I was surprised to see that his process for dimensioning rough lumber was... Scrub Plane, Jointer Plane, Smoothing Plane. Is this the process that most here follow? I am starting with a Jack Plane and a Smoothing plane. Am I not starting out correctly? I thought the Jack Plane was recommended to be the first plane one should buy.

Thanks for your comments.

EDIT: Most people follow a rough-joint-smooth progression, but not necessarily with scrub, jointer, and smoothing planes. It depends on personal preference and scale of work.

The scrub is absolutely not necessary. Many people prefer Jacks (#5) or Fores (#6) with cambered blades for roughing, while others prefer the smaller/narrower and simpler scrub. All of them work perfectly well. Also if you're buying pre-dimensioned then you don't need a roughing plane at all.

The question of the jointer is a bit trickier. A common rule of thumb is that planes will easily flatten stock up to twice their length, where "easily" means that you don't have to measure and iterate. You can go longer with moderate effort. Your #5 is therefore very suitable for jointing up to ~28" work pieces, and longer with care.

The one catch is that roughing and jointing optimally need different blade configurations. Most people find that efficient roughing requires a heavily cambered blade (rounded edge profile), whereas jointing requires a straight or minimally cambered blade. If you were going to get one addtional thing I would therefore suggest an extra blade for the #5, so that you can reconfigure that plane between roughing and jointing by swapping blades. If you're limited to one blade then set it up for jointing and accept that your rouging will be a bit inefficient (unless you like the "scalloped look" :-)

[Scott DelPorte]

You should be just fine with a jack and smoother. Taking a bench making class at Woodcraft like you described in an earlier thread sounds like a great way to get started.

[Patrick Cox]

Taking rough lumber and making it flat and square take some practice. Many people start out with a lunchbox planer and a 6 inch joiner to do that job. I don't recall how you ended up with these planes, chisels and saw's. Is it because you wanted to go that neanderthal route. If so that's great. You can build wonderful furniture with just handtools. But for myself, personally, I would start out using electrons to dimension my lumber, while I gained experience with my planes, especially the sharpening.

I do have a track saw if I need it but I don't have a table saw and I really don't have the room for a table saw. Also the power tools are a bit noisy and I wanted to give neanderthal a try! :) And I can use the exercise. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it! We'll se how it goes. I'm going out to buy wood tomorrow morning.

[Patrick Cox]

You should be just fine with a jack and smoother. Taking a bench making class at Woodcraft like you described in an earlier thread sounds like a great way to get started. Thanks. And yes, I am signed up for that class. The problem is I have to wait another 6 weeks! :(

[Patrick Chase]

I do have a track saw if I need it but I don't have a table saw and I really don't have the room for a table saw. Also the power tools are a bit noisy and I wanted to give neanderthal a try! :) And I can use the exercise. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it! We'll se how it goes. I'm going out to buy wood tomorrow morning.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but...

IMO roughing is where going neander delivers the worst payoff. It isn't terribly skill-intensive, but it's the area where hand tools deliver the least incremental benefit in terms of results (power tools can do it just as well) and cost the most in terms of effort.

One think I should have said in my previous reply: I have a scrub, but I more often use a jack for roughing. IMO the scrub is a luxury item, not a core necessity.

[Reinis Kanders]

Sign up for free Paul Sellers videos. He is a pretty good teacher.

[Luke Dupont]

Sign up for free Paul Sellers videos. He is a pretty good teacher.

This almost seems off-topic, but is a good suggestion.

I think he offers a good introduction for beginners because he keeps things to the bare-bones essentials, and doesn't over complicate. It's definitely a perspective that you should expose yourself to, as a lot of people will be very insistent on complicated or expensive methods that may not be necessary for the humble beginner/hobbyist.

In general, it's more important to learn to use a core set of simple tools in a diverse and skillful manner than to have large numbers of diverse, specialized tools, each perfect for its specific application, as a beginner. Loads of specialized tools might be convenient and efficient, but they aren't necessary, and you don't even know what you'll need and don't need until you have more experience.

A jack and a smoother is plenty sufficient. Focus on the underlying concepts and techniques rather than the specific details involved in a particular method. Everyone does things a little differently, and some like to do the same thing in a more complicated manner, or using more tools in the process because they have that luxury. Your goal as a beginner is to distill that to its simplest form, and learn to do it yourself without all of those fancy tools that you don't have yet ;)

I think it's a good thing to learn this way. It makes you more flexible when, say, you know how to make rabbits without a rabbit plane, or you learn to joint a long board with a short plane. It may not be the easiest way, but it will teach you a lot about woodworking and how to use your tools/what they are capable of.

That isn't to say you should always do things the hardway, just that it's a useful approach as a beginner, will teach you a lot, and save you money, allowing you to identify what you really do/don't need in the future. I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking they need this or that tool for this or that job, when, their current tool-set is plenty adequate (especially if they don't intend to be doing "this or that" on a frequent, repeated basis).

But then, I'm a bit of a minimalist, so my preferences might be biasing my advise here.

[steven c newman]

Wasn't there a show by Underhill and Schwarz about handplane essentials. Where the go from a "common" jack plane, through a try plane, to a smooth plane. They also showed how to use a couple others as well.

pbs.org The Woodwright's Shop. Not sure which season it was in, or episode number.

[Bill Houghton]

Just remember:

1. The iron/blade on your jack plane should be curved at the cutting edge (the standard term is "cambered"). Using a jack with a straight-across edge is somewhat self-defeating. How much? Well, you'll have to experiment/learn. 1/16" from edge to center might be a good place to start, although others will suggest other grinds. Getting there, if you're sharpening by hand, involves putting more pressure on the corners, alternating as you go. There's a tradeoff: if you get a good camber on the jack, suitable for taking off plenty of wood, it won't be as effective when you're using it as a little try plane (which I did, when I didn't have but one plane). If you can afford an extra iron, you can have two different grinds for different purposes.

2. When you're working from the rough lumber, planing across the grain will remove more wood than planing along the grain.

3. Somewhere, I read the acronym FEWTEL: Face, Edge, Width, Thickness, (opposite) Edge, Length. I haven't watched the video in question, and he may have addressed this issue, in which case I'll shut up. But it's a good sequence to follow.

[Brian Holcombe]

This is an important hurdle to jump, in learning to dimension lumber you will also teach yourself how to sharpen and setup your planes to form an efficient approach.

[Mike Holbrook]

This may sound weird, but in answer to Patrick's statement about neander methods failing when it comes to roughing out pieces. I beg to differ.

More recently a good deal of the wood I work is split from actual green logs. Green wood is relatively easy to split with simpler neander tools like, wedges, froes, gluts, axes...The resulting pieces can actually be roughed into shape fairly easily with a drawknife, axe, adze, large spokeshave...

The "rough" pieces created with these "older" methods typically have near perfect grain orientation, which certainly makes planing them later much easier. Yes it is more steps, some different skill sets and you may want a drying kiln. Still if we are talking neandering and having fun doing it. Working green wood is a real pleasure, at least for me.

[Patrick Chase]

This may sound weird, but in answer to Patrick's statement about neander methods failing when it comes to roughing out pieces. I beg to differ.

I didn't say "failing". I said "least payoff" in comparison to using neander methods for other phases of preparation.

Nothing you've said directly contradicts that.

[Mike Holbrook]

Not trying to contradict you Patrick, just starting from a "different" raw material. My point being that people tend to only think of starting from "manufactured" lumber. I got interested in chairs, which got me started down a little different line of thought.

If we want to "neander", what could be more neander than starting with a log? Today I am working on glued up, store bought, SYP panels, trying to plane them into raised panels. Even with a good plane, chip breaker and sharp blade I still get tear out trying to take large shavings. I am just saying that green wood is usually much more pleasant to work with and it is easier to do with simpler tools too.

Sure there are many projects that sort of demand manufactured wood, which is why I tend to look forward to the projects that I can use green wood for.

[Jim Koepke]

I didn't say "failing". I said "least payoff" in comparison to using neander methods for other phases of preparation.

Nothing you've said directly contradicts that.

"Least payoff?" I do not have any power planers or jointers. planing rough cut lumber gives me a good cardio workout and the payoff for that is priceless when my blood pressure is tested.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Right Jim, and with green wood you get to swing a sledge and an axe, lift a few weights (wedges & logs)...I usually work up a decent sweat. Especially wrestling large oak logs in this kind of weather, even using a peavey.

[Brian Holcombe]

Prepping by hand will also teach you quite a bit about your material selection.

[Jim Koepke]

Right Jim, and with green wood you get to swing a sledge and an axe, lift a few weights (wedges & logs)...I usually work up a decent sweat. Especially wrestling large oak logs in this kind of weather, even using a peavey.

Today my grandkids and I are out with a chainsaw and Block & Tackle pulling some fallen trees up the side of our hill.

Kind of fun with a bit of intermittent rain to keep us cool.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Today my grandkids and I are out with a chainsaw and Block & Tackle pulling some fallen trees up the side of our hill.

Kind of fun with a bit of intermittent rain to keep us cool.

jtk
So you use the chain saw to automate the block and tackle? Very creative Jim. What do the grandkids do?

[Roy Lindberry]

Hello,
I just watched Rough to Ready with Rob Cosman and I was surprised to see that his process for dimensioning rough lumber was... Scrub Plane, Jointer Plane, Smoothing Plane. Is this the process that most here follow? I am starting with a Jack Plane and a Smoothing plane. Am I not starting out correctly? I thought the Jack Plane was recommended to be the first plane one should buy.

Thanks for your comments.

That is a good video by Cosman. I learned a lot by watching it. Note, however, that it makes little difference whether you use a scrub or a jack plane (properly set up). Both are what are called roughing planes. The traditional fore plane was an English style, while the scrub hailed from continental Europe, if I remember correctly. It is just two different styles to accomplish the same end goal.

Dimensioning lumber is really all about the job, not the specific tool. If you were to do it with a belt sander, you would start with a very coarse grit, move to a medium grit, and finish with a fine grit. Planes are the same way. You do the grunt work with a coarse tool (fore plane or scrub plane), the initial flattening with a medium tool, usually a bit longer (try plane or jointer plane), and prep the surface with a fine tool (the smoothing plane).

Myself, I rough with a Stanley #5 with an 8" camber on the blade. My intermediate step is a Stanley number six with a much less pronounced camber. Finally, I generally smooth with a Stanley 4 1/2 with a very, very slight camber. My jointer is a Stanley #8 with very little camber. This is my basic setup, though I do use others when I feel it is necessary.

But, like sandpaper, you can skip from coarse to fine if that's all you have: you just might need to spend a little more time with the fine tool. This is why many have suggested that you get a second iron for your jack and set it up for better jointing and flattening. You could also back off the frog on your smoother and take a heavier cut as an intermediate step, if you like. Working with hand tools is about finding out what works best for you. What meets your own preferences (some think the #4 1/2 & #8 are too large and prefer are #3 or #4 & #7), and what tools you currently have will help determine your road map to reach the same destination. If you have time, take a look at this link and watch "hand plane essentials": http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/watch-on-line/watch-season-episodes/2011-2012-episodes/

[John Glendening]

You're right, Roy. The "normal" approach is always coarse, medium, fine. But every rule/approach has exceptions. The materials may dictate something else, and technique and experience will play. Ask Paul Sellers about using a #4 - for everything. But, sometimes neither he nor you would want to do that.

[Stanley Covington]

EDIT: Most people follow a rough-joint-smooth progression, but not necessarily with scrub, jointer, and smoothing planes. It depends on personal preference and scale of work.

The scrub is absolutely not necessary. Many people prefer Jacks (#5) or Fores (#6) with cambered blades for roughing, while others prefer the smaller/narrower and simpler scrub. All of them work perfectly well. Also if you're buying pre-dimensioned then you don't need a roughing plane at all.

The question of the jointer is a bit trickier. A common rule of thumb is that planes will easily flatten stock up to twice their length, where "easily" means that you don't have to measure and iterate. You can go longer with moderate effort. Your #5 is therefore very suitable for jointing up to ~28" work pieces, and longer with care.

The one catch is that roughing and jointing optimally need different blade configurations. Most people find that efficient roughing requires a heavily cambered blade (rounded edge profile), whereas jointing requires a straight or minimally cambered blade. If you were going to get one addtional thing I would therefore suggest an extra blade for the #5, so that you can reconfigure that plane between roughing and jointing by swapping blades. If you're limited to one blade then set it up for jointing and accept that your rouging will be a bit inefficient (unless you like the "scalloped look" :-)

Absolutely disagree. If one is doing all handwork (this is a forum about using handtools, remember), and one is starting with lumber that is not already S4S, and one values their time, then a scrub plane is an absolute necessity.

A jack will do the job of a scrub plane, but much slower and with more effort. Unless, of course, you are talking about a jack that has been setup as a scrub plane.... which makes it what?? Oh yea, a scrub plane.

Contrary to what Mr. Schwarz might suggest, if you are using an electric or hydraulic powered jointer and/or thickness planer in your shop to dimension lumber, or are using lumber previously planed and jointed by machine by others, then you are not dimensioning your lumber entirely by hand. Nothing wrong with that in the least, but it is counterproductive to tell newbies that don't own power planers and jointers that a scrub plane (or equivalent) is "absolutely not necessary" just because it is not necessary in your shop. Remember the context. Practice reading comprehension.

[Brian Holcombe]

I would not recommend doing this for getting a lot of work done, but I have worked Jack then smoother before. On very highly figured crotch table tops that will not really allow for wide and heavy long grain passes, in which case I prefer narrower and lighter passes.

So, it can be used to help get going, but you'll want to move to more efficient process quickly.

[Roy Lindberry]

You're right, Roy. The "normal" approach is always coarse, medium, fine. But every rule/approach has exceptions. The materials may dictate something else, and technique and experience will play. Ask Paul Sellers about using a #4 - for everything. But, sometimes neither he nor you would want to do that.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. I am a fan of Sellers, but I note that he generally (if not always) begins with pre-dimensioned wood. He does do a lot with a #4, though, that I'm not likely to do such a jointing 4x4s for a workbench.

I didn't intend to say that the general approach is the only way. My intent was to say that there is a general approach, but every individual will have to find what works for them and their tool kit. My apologies if it came out wrong.

[Patrick Cox]

"Least payoff?" I do not have any power planers or jointers. planing rough cut lumber gives me a good cardio workout and the payoff for that is priceless when my blood pressure is tested.

jtk


Totally agree. Also no screaming machines.

[Patrick Cox]

Thanks for all of the replies. All very helpful. And I also watched the pbs video that was recommended. That was helpful as well. I have a better idea of what I need to be working towards.

[Jim Koepke]

So you use the chain saw to automate the block and tackle? Very creative Jim. What do the grandkids do?

No, the chainsaw is to make the trees small enough for us to pull by hand.

The kids help to run the rope and do some of the pulling. It was a bit of work, but we were kind of having fun. That is what matters.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Stanley,

I didn't think a scrub plane was necessary until I started working more rough sawn work. I converted a beat up in a high school shop class #5-1/4 and am now a convert to the benefits of a scrub plane.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

One thing often said no longer makes sense to me. (it used to make sense until I did the math on dollars spent)

That is the idea of buying a second blade for BD planes for different uses.

In my experience it is cheaper to find another #4 or #5 at a yard sale or where ever than it is to purchase a replacement blade.

I used to purchase extra blades with this in mind. I found it is just easier to have a second plane set up for the different use.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Absolutely disagree. If one is doing all handwork (this is a forum about using handtools, remember), and one is starting with lumber that is not already S4S, and one values their time, then a scrub plane is an absolute necessity.

A jack will do the job of a scrub plane, but much slower and with more effort. Unless, of course, you are talking about a jack that has been setup as a scrub plane.... which makes it what?? Oh yea, a scrub plane.

Contrary to what Mr. Schwarz might suggest, if you are using an electric or hydraulic powered jointer and/or thickness planer in your shop to dimension lumber, or are using lumber previously planed and jointed by machine by others, then you are not dimensioning your lumber entirely by hand. Nothing wrong with that in the least, but it is counterproductive to tell newbies that don't own power planers and jointers that a scrub plane (or equivalent) is "absolutely not necessary" just because it is not necessary in your shop. Remember the context. Practice reading comprehension.

Let us first define what is a scrub and what is a jackplane fit for dimensioning wood.

A scrub is a very narrow and short plane with a severely cambered blade. My German scrub has a blade not quite 1.5" wide, 9" long and the blade has a 3" camber.
A jackplane is quite a bit longer and wider and with less severe camber. My English jack is 16" long 2 1/4" blade and about 10" camber.

What you are looking at here is the difference between typically German and English traditional woodworking. They both get the work done, both are effcient when used according to their tradition. I think my scrub is way too agressive for most dimensioning tasks and I only use it when thicknessing a good amount. I suppose the Germans would have used the scrub in a very light way most of the time. For the usual amount of removing sawmarks, twist, cup and bow I think the jack is plenty aggressive enough.

[Skip Helms]

I may have missed it but I didn't see anyone ask where you were going to get your lumber. At many places, it will already be dimensioned. At others, they'll run it through a planer for a few bucks extra along with a straight edge. In a purely manual shop, you'll need to bow-saw along a snapped chalk line to get your first rough dimension -- you can cheat and use a circular saw for that.

Back to the wood, it depends on how rough is rough. For planks that have been through a band or circular mill, I would (and have) started with a No.6 that has some camber to the iron. If it is figured wood, you might also add a slight back bevel to raise the effective angle of attack. BTW, two irons are cheaper than two planes -- but not by much.

Then I'd continue the process with a jack plane if I had one. If not, go to the #4 -- again with a little camber. I have another 4 that is dead straight across the edge but the corners are slightly rounded so it doesn't leave witness marks like a dado. Scrape the remaining lines.

If your wood is really rough, regrind your #5 as a scrubber and take off the high spots. You can't put a really large bow on the edge or else you can't back the frog off enough to fit the iron through the mouth without filing it -- not a crime but unrestorable to original. An old slick chisel can work well there too but those have collector value.

Something else I didn't see was how to even tell if you have it flat. Winding sticks and a good straightedge are a must. Your eyes will fool you. Maybe it's just me but I like a massive straightedge that will stay put without holding it. Here is a cheap solution for that: http://www.mcmaster.com/#grade-o1-tool-steel/=13mudta That's O1 tool steel so when you are ready to make your own plane blades, you can lop 6" off the end.

If you are new to this, don't try to get the boards exact individually if you plan to glue them together for a table or bench. I've tended to thin an edge too much and can't get the mating board to lay down exactly where it's supposed to. Instead, joint the edges (the #6 will work for that) after you have done the rough dimensioning and assemble. Then finish leveling the entire surface. It makes it easier to pick which side you want up.

Last tip, if possible, have the grain runout all going in the same direction. It is a rotten feeling when you push a nice clean plane along one board and then hear the sccccchhhhh of planing the wrong way on the board next to it. Leveling a hand-planed surface with multiple boards I generally go with the grain for one pass, at a 45 degree angle across with the second, 45 the other way with the third and back to with the grain. Use the winding sticks after each pass and chalk or crayon the high spots. Good luck, sh

[Patrick Cox]

Thanksgiving for your reply. I bought these boards at a local hardwood dealer. And I did buy S4S on my 4/4 stock but 8/4 stock only comes rough. I don't know how it was cut but it was rough. Here is a picture of the wood ...

http://www.pcoxphoto.com/Web-Postings/n-8hBvS/i-DNGjFT9

Anyway, since I don't yet have my bench or my planes worked out I decided to pay Woodcraft to plane and joint the 8/4 board. But for future, how rough is this board on the right and what plane/blade would you start with?

And thanks for your other comments. All very helpful.

And BTW, the guy at the lumber yard didn't understand why I did not bring a circular saw! LOL!

Pat


I may have missed it but I didn't see anyone ask where you were going to get your lumber. At many places, it will already be dimensioned. At others, they'll run it through a planer for a few bucks extra along with a straight edge. In a purely manual shop, you'll need to bow-saw along a snapped chalk line to get your first rough dimension -- you can cheat and use a circular saw for that.

Back to the wood, it depends on how rough is rough. For planks that have been through a band or circular mill, I would (and have) started with a No.6 that has some camber to the iron. If it is figured wood, you might also add a slight back bevel to raise the effective angle of attack. BTW, two irons are cheaper than two planes -- but not by much.

Then I'd continue the process with a jack plane if I had one. If not, go to the #4 -- again with a little camber. I have another 4 that is dead straight across the edge but the corners are slightly rounded so it doesn't leave witness marks like a dado. Scrape the remaining lines.

If your wood is really rough, regrind your #5 as a scrubber and take off the high spots. You can't put a really large bow on the edge or else you can't back the frog off enough to fit the iron through the mouth without filing it -- not a crime but unrestorable to original. An old slick chisel can work well there too but those have collector value.

Something else I didn't see was how to even tell if you have it flat. Winding sticks and a good straightedge are a must. Your eyes will fool you. Maybe it's just me but I like a massive straightedge that will stay put without holding it. Here is a cheap solution for that: http://www.mcmaster.com/#grade-o1-tool-steel/=13mudta That's O1 tool steel so when you are ready to make your own plane blades, you can lop 6" off the end.

If you are new to this, don't try to get the boards exact individually if you plan to glue them together for a table or bench. I've tended to thin an edge too much and can't get the mating board to lay down exactly where it's supposed to. Instead, joint the edges (the #6 will work for that) after you have done the rough dimensioning and assemble. Then finish leveling the entire surface. It makes it easier to pick which side you want up.

Last tip, if possible, have the grain runout all going in the same direction. It is a rotten feeling when you push a nice clean plane along one board and then hear the sccccchhhhh of planing the wrong way on the board next to it. Leveling a hand-planed surface with multiple boards I generally go with the grain for one pass, at a 45 degree angle across with the second, 45 the other way with the third and back to with the grain. Use the winding sticks after each pass and chalk or crayon the high spots. Good luck, sh

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but...

Are you often flamed? Your posts are generally very informative for me.....


IMO roughing is where going neander delivers the worst payoff. It isn't terribly skill-intensive, but it's the area where hand tools deliver the least incremental benefit in terms of results (power tools can do it just as well) and cost the most in terms of effort.

Bite your tongue... well, just a little bit anyway.

It may not take much skill, but I find that I have struggled with getting a nice flat surface using just my hand planes. I do some things well but sadly, this is not one of them. If you lived closer (and if I had more time), I would show up with some sort of bribe and ask for lessons. I have certainly been known to knock down the most serious high spots using a scrub plane before I use my sled to joint one face in my surface planer (since I don't own a powered jointer).

I will also admit that it has been a long time (years) since I did try to do one by hand so perhaps my skills have improved. I was very new to this and was probably working on my one of my first projects. I vaguely remember that I had some pretty deep grooves left from my scrub plane so I was having trouble finding a balance between puling a workable shaving and taking off enough to get to the bottom of the groove that I had created. In retrospect, I probably needed to take a shallower cut with the scrub (or something). If my memory is correct, I think that I spent a week of evenings surfacing a single board. That was probably 10 years ago.


One think I should have said in my previous reply: I have a scrub, but I more often use a jack for roughing. IMO the scrub is a luxury item, not a core necessity.

Mr. Chase expands on this in his next response. I purchased a scrub because i thought that I had to have one and I got a good deal on one used here on the creek. I find that I really like it when I knock off high spots, but if I had a properly cambered blade in one of my #5 planes, it would likely do just as good of a job. The only advantages to the scrub is probably that the blade is very narrow and the throat is completely open. This makes it easy to cut deep thick shavings. The disadvantage is that it is easy to take deep thick shavings.

[Sean Hughto]

Your reply is a perfect example of what happens so often on forums. I have no doubt everything you say is true in your own experience. However, your experience is not representative of everyone else's. Your generalizations are an overreach. You don't take into account every activity folks may be doing, every goal, every method of work.

Many people who work huge slabs, for example, will find scrubs a necessity as anything else is way too slow.

Many will ill also notice qualitative differences in the details of a piece prepared with planes as opposed to sanders etc.

Others will find the pace and process of handwork allows time and opportunity for small decisions and adjustments as the process proceeds that are not possible when running a stick through a machine.

Etc.

[Stanley Covington]

Let us first define what is a scrub and what is a jackplane fit for dimensioning wood.

A scrub is a very narrow and short plane with a severely cambered blade. My German scrub has a blade not quite 1.5" wide, 9" long and the blade has a 3" camber.
A jackplane is quite a bit longer and wider and with less severe camber. My English jack is 16" long 2 1/4" blade and about 10" camber.

What you are looking at here is the difference between typically German and English traditional woodworking. They both get the work done, both are effcient when used according to their tradition. I think my scrub is way too agressive for most dimensioning tasks and I only use it when thicknessing a good amount. I suppose the Germans would have used the scrub in a very light way most of the time. For the usual amount of removing sawmarks, twist, cup and bow I think the jack is plenty aggressive enough.


You make my point for me, Kees. The term "scrub plane" indicates differing planes in differing locations and differing times. The scrub plane with the narrow thick blade sold by LN nowadays, for instance, was not called a scrub plane back when it was first retailed. Indeed, it was speciality plane for working the edges of doors and windows.

In the American tradition, as I understand it, and before the advent of steel bodies, a carpenter used a finish plane, jack, or jointer plane until the mouth became too wide for fine work, then opened up the mouth wider, put a big camber on the blade, and used it for the initial rough dimensioning of lumber. This work was called "scrubbing," and the plane used, regardless of length or width, he called his "scrub plane."

I was taught by my father to use a Stanley jack plane set up as a scrub plane. I have known others that used No. 4's. It matters not.

The key point is that, at least in my experience, there are times when doing handwork, when a planer is not available or practical, and a scrub plane is the best tool for the job. I like my LN scrub plane, but my old Stanley jack/scrub plane works almost as well.

The Japanese typically use a shorter plane for this job with a 45~50mm wide blade. It is not called a scrub plane, but an "Arashiko," mean "rough finishing" plane. The same plane, but with narrower mouth and less camber, is also used for many other planing tasks. Tomato tomato, potato potatoe.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Thanks. And yes, I am signed up for that class. The problem is I have to wait another 6 weeks! :(

Why must you wait 6 weeks? You mean for the class? or is it because you have insufficient planes? I assume the former!

[Kees Heiden]

That's why I started defining what I always understood to be the difference between a scrub and a jackplane. It so easy to misunderstand each other when you use the same name for two different things. And the German wooden Schruphobel isquite another beast then an old smoother with a wide open mouth and a cambered iron.

[Stanley Covington]

That's why I started defining what I always understood to be the difference between a scrub and a jackplane. It so easy to misunderstand each other when you use the same name for two different things. And the German wooden Schruphobel isquite another beast then an old smoother with a wide open mouth and a cambered iron.

Please tell us about the German wooden Schruphobel.

[Kees Heiden]

Sure, but later.

[Mike Cherry]

FWIW, I bought a scrub when I first got into the craft. It sat unused on my shelf for 95% of its life. I sold it. If you use rough lumber alot I could see its uses, but I use mostly S2S and once you learn how to efficiently flatten a board you will realize that you dont need a scrub. The only time I can see needing one, is when you are reducing a boards width. It can do that in record time compared to most planes.

[James Pallas]

IMO for someone new you first need to learn to judge the material and not the plane you need. I have seen lumber come from the mill that can be cleaned up with a rank set smoother to material that you need a broad axe. If you only need to clean up a board lightly and you take a scrub plane (no mater what kind) you will just make a lot of work for yourself. Start with winding sticks and straight edges marker and take off only what you need to on the first face. Thicknessing is a whole different operation. Someone new may get the idea that you need to scrub the whole face to start out instead of just the high spots, lots of work and time.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

Are you often flamed? Your posts are generally very informative for me.....

Nah, SMC is a pretty friendly environment all things considered.

I said that because both the value of hand-roughing and the tools one should use to do it are an area of even wider-than-usual divergence of opinion. You can see that really clearly in Jim's responses: I evaluated hand-roughing in purely woodworking terms (basically: does it deliver any benefit in terms of the final work relative to machine) while he took a more holistic view that includes things like physical fitness and spending time with the grandkids. IMO both are equally right, it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.



Bite your tongue... well, just a little bit anyway.

It may not take much skill, but I find that I have struggled with getting a nice flat surface using just my hand planes. I do some things well but sadly, this is not one of them. If you lived closer (and if I had more time), I would show up with some sort of bribe and ask for lessons. I have certainly been known to knock down the most serious high spots using a scrub plane before I use my sled to joint one face in my surface planer (since I don't own a powered jointer).

I will also admit that it has been a long time (years) since I did try to do one by hand so perhaps my skills have improved. I was very new to this and was probably working on my one of my first projects. I vaguely remember that I had some pretty deep grooves left from my scrub plane so I was having trouble finding a balance between puling a workable shaving and taking off enough to get to the bottom of the groove that I had created. In retrospect, I probably needed to take a shallower cut with the scrub (or something). If my memory is correct, I think that I spent a week of evenings surfacing a single board. That was probably 10 years ago.

Been there, done that. That's one of the reasons I've come to prefer a jack or fore with 6-12" of camber (depending on how much material I'm removing) to the scrub. The jack takes somewhat shallower-but-wider cuts, which makes it less prone to "overcutting" such as you describe, but still round enough to be productive for roughing. I also like the extra length of the jack/fore, as it's less prone to follow dips in the workpiece.

Of course you can always set the scrub to take shallower cuts, but then productivity suffers because the cut volume is reduced.



Mr. Chase expands on this in his next response. I purchased a scrub because i thought that I had to have one and I got a good deal on one used here on the creek. I find that I really like it when I knock off high spots, but if I had a properly cambered blade in one of my #5 planes, it would likely do just as good of a job. The only advantages to the scrub is probably that the blade is very narrow and the throat is completely open. This makes it easy to cut deep thick shavings. The disadvantage is that it is easy to take deep thick shavings.

Yeah, the wide-open throat is definitely a plus, and IMO narrow/deep cuts are the most efficient way to hog off lots of material. I think that I give up a little bit of speed with the jack, but not enough to be a huge concern.

[Prashun Patel]

Patrick Cox,

Going back to your original question, you are starting out 'correctly'. A scrub may have its uses, but IMHO, it's not necessary *if* you decide you don't wish to joint and thickness thick boards regularly. The debate about the merit of this activity is moot. If, like me, you have determined the rough dimensioning to be a sometimes-treat, then you may be able to get by with a jack and perhaps a specialized blade (cambered so it can take thick cuts with minimal effort) for it.

I do suggest (you'll get other suggestions more valid than mine) that you begin your journey from the finish end backwards. Use power or purchase power to get stock that's mostly surfaced and close to the right thickness you need; go from not-so-rough to ready.

Once you're comfortable with these planes and their blades, then consider expanding towards the rougher side. There, I'd personally get a jointer before a scrub. Some never make it to scrub.

(off topic, soap box alert): Just remember there are shades of Neander, and while there is a perceived scorn for being hybrid to any degree, that perception exists only in the mind of the insecure.

Last, scrub planes tend to come up for sale in the Classifieds here more than others - even 'premium' ones like LN or Veritas. And, they tend to sell for considerably less than some of the other bench planes. This may tell you something about their utility and demand, and may inform the timing of your own purchase.

[Kees Heiden]

Ok, now I am safely back at home: The German Schruphobel. (Or scrubplane).

342112

First a little bit of history. The German dictionary from 1714: Curieuses und Reales Natur-, Kunst-, Berg-, Gewerck- und Handlungs-Lexicon.


They talk about the Schuerffhobel. This is described as the usual German planes with the horn at the front. The cutting edge is said to be rounded while the sole is flat. They don't give sizes but remarkably, the next entry is the Schlichthobel for smoothing which is said to be larger! Because nowadays all German planes, except the jointer, are the same length, this is an indication that the Schuerffhobel was a smaller, especially narrower, plane with a heavilly cambered iron used for very rough work. A bit like the more modern German Schrupphobel.

My Schrupphobel has the same size as a Stanley #40. 9 1/2" long with a 1 1/4" wide blade. It's made of wood of course and has the very convenient horn at the front. The very narrow width combined with the very agressive camber (radius about 3") make it a great little plane to remove wood in a hurry, across the grain. With the grain I don't really like it, it's much harder to push and tends to dig in all the time. The resultant surface is awfull. To get an idea, have a look at this older video from me, thicknessing a large wallnut board. Working like this across the grain looks like hard and sweaty work but it isn't that bad and it is very quick. At the end of the video you can see what it does to your board. As you can see the scallops are deep, and it is easy to go too deep, and damage more then you like, when only a moderate amount of wood needs to be removed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJKa9Czzy3Q

In relatively modern times the German tool box contains these planes:
Schrupphobel for really agressive work, 32 mm wide iron.
Schlichthobel, wider (48 mm usually), single iron, usually used like an English jackplane
Doppelhobel or the Reform hobel, Both are smoothing planes, the latter has a 49 degree bedding angle. Both have a chipbreaker and have a 48 mm wide straight(ish) blade.
Raubank, The German jointer.

BTW, The Stanley #40 has almost the same dimensions as my Schrupphobel. Made of steel, so it is heavier of course. Single iron, 1 1/4"wide. I don't know how Stanley introduced this plane in 1896, but in the 1902 catalogue it is simply menioned as a scrubplane for rough work before using a jack or other plane. No mention about some specific trade or job. My idea is that is was introduced for the many German imigrants who could be pursuaded to trade their old wooden Schrupphobel for a real American made steel version!

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/temp/Stanley%20scrub%201902_zpswfvo9tl0.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/temp/Stanley%20scrub%201902_zpswfvo9tl0.jpg.html)

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Not to be contrary, but I can't recall a lot of scrub planes coming up in the classifieds, at least not recently. I do see a number of regular bench planes though. Some of them don't always seem to fly off the shelves.

And the "scorn" thing comes from all kinds of folks, and I think has more to do with the person than the tools they have. Some hybrid people seem to think people are wasting time to flatten or square stock by hand.

That said, I think Prashun is giving good advice. I started out building stuff in my kitchen or dining room with what I could get from Home Depot. Their S4S stuff kept me busy for a good while, sawing, chiseling, and then cleaning things up a little bit with a smooth plane. I think that is a good way to get your feet wet. Starting with a rough board, and trying to flatten, square, diagnose issues with planes, diagnose issues with your technique, and then finally build something is sort of like jumping in the deep end for your first swimming lesson. It might work out all right, but I could see how a lot of people might get frustrated and just take up golf.

For me, after a while I got tired of the limited stock selection at Home Depot (not so tired I wanted to pay Woodcraft prices) and started looking for other options. Flattening and squaring rough lumber with a jointer and jack just took forever. Working in a basement without the option of throwing something on the tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, or planer, to get it flat and square, and the size I want, the No. 40 was a game changer. I can take a much thicker cut with a No. 40. It is as simple as that. If I remove the same material with a jack, it might take me ten strokes to one with the scrub. When you are dealing with larger material, those extra strokes add up quickly.

Now again, I think Prashun's advice is good. I don't think everybody should run out and buy a scrub for their first plane or three. I think the smoother on S4S or S2S lumber is a good place to start. But, if the OP gets down the road a little bit and wants to wade a little deeper in the lumber stack without spending all weekend planing, and without buying a bunch of power tools, he should keep in the back of his mind that there is a thing called a scrub, and they used to make them for a reason.

[Skip Helms]

You can do everything you need with a #5 jack plane on that stock. You'll get your boards down to size, learn how to setup and use the plane and see for yourself where you can improve next time. If you really want, throw in a #4 or #3 smoother to get the surface just right. I actually just bought this plane for 12 hours:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sargent-No-409-plane-32338-/152198634982?hash=item236fbedde6:g:VLsAAOSwbsBXm6i C

He listed it accidentally as a 408 he was also selling and sent me the wrong one. I sent it back and got the correct unit. I should have kept it. Better than any of the #4 sizes I have but I didn't need another one. If you can get that for $35, you'll be halfway there. sh

[Thomas Schneider]

Hi Patrick,

Do you have a local woodworking club or perhaps a friend who might have a scrub plane you can call on and maybe use without the expense of buying one. And maybe get a little lesson using one too!

[Stanley Covington]

Ok, now I am safely back at home: The German Schruphobel. (Or scrubplane).

342112

First a little bit of history. The German dictionary from 1714: Curieuses und Reales Natur-, Kunst-, Berg-, Gewerck- und Handlungs-Lexicon.


They talk about the Schuerffhobel. This is described as the usual German planes with the horn at the front. The cutting edge is said to be rounded while the sole is flat. They don't give sizes but remarkably, the next entry is the Schlichthobel for smoothing which is said to be larger! Because nowadays all German planes, except the jointer, are the same length, this is an indication that the Schuerffhobel was a smaller, especially narrower, plane with a heavilly cambered iron used for very rough work. A bit like the more modern German Schrupphobel.

My Schrupphobel has the same size as a Stanley #40. 9 1/2" long with a 1 1/4" wide blade. It's made of wood of course and has the very convenient horn at the front. The very narrow width combined with the very agressive camber (radius about 3") make it a great little plane to remove wood in a hurry, across the grain. With the grain I don't really like it, it's much harder to push and tends to dig in all the time. The resultant surface is awfull. To get an idea, have a look at this older video from me, thicknessing a large wallnut board. Working like this across the grain looks like hard and sweaty work but it isn't that bad and it is very quick. At the end of the video you can see what it does to your board. As you can see the scallops are deep, and it is easy to go too deep, and damage more then you like, when only a moderate amount of wood needs to be removed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJKa9Czzy3Q

In relatively modern times the German tool box contains these planes:
Schrupphobel for really agressive work, 32 mm wide iron.
Schlichthobel, wider (48 mm usually), single iron, usually used like an English jackplane
Doppelhobel or the Reform hobel, Both are smoothing planes, the latter has a 49 degree bedding angle. Both have a chipbreaker and have a 48 mm wide straight(ish) blade.
Raubank, The German jointer.

BTW, The Stanley #40 has almost the same dimensions as my Schrupphobel. Made of steel, so it is heavier of course. Single iron, 1 1/4"wide. I don't know how Stanley introduced this plane in 1896, but in the 1902 catalogue it is simply menioned as a scrubplane for rough work before using a jack or other plane. No mention about some specific trade or job. My idea is that is was introduced for the many German imigrants who could be pursuaded to trade their old wooden Schrupphobel for a real American made steel version!

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/temp/Stanley%20scrub%201902_zpswfvo9tl0.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/temp/Stanley%20scrub%201902_zpswfvo9tl0.jpg.html)

Thank you Kees. Excellent and informative writeup and video.

Do you find the horn at the front easier to apply force to than the Stanley/Bailey style with the handle at the back?

Of the various styles of scrub planes you have used, which style do you prefer?

Stan

[Kees Heiden]

I don't have tried a wide varity of scrubplanes, but this one is a lot more agressive then any of my jackplanes, with 8-10" camber. In the project above, removing a ton of wood, it was a life saver, but for the smaller scale projects I worked on after that it was really too much.

I sure do like the German horned planes, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. I like the Stanleys too. At the moment I am into English style wooden planes that don't have a front handle at all and I like them too. It needs a bit of getting used to how to grasp with the front handle though.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

As you can see the scallops are deep, and it is easy to go too deep, and damage more then you like, when only a moderate amount of wood needs to be removed.

Yep, I have done that....

I really should configure a #5 for rougher work and then I can progress from my Lie Nielsen Scrub to the #5 while trying hard to not take overly deep cuts with my scrub.

Hand planes are not my strength. Pretty sure the problem is me and not my tools; sadly.

[Skip Helms]

Patrick, I may be inviting some flames here but the 8/4 boards you show in the picture shouldn't take more than 10-minutes a side with any decent plane. If there are 20 more of them out-of-frame maybe you get more specialized. You certainly don't need a scrubber for mill-sawn stock -- unless it is really warped. Yours doesn't appear that way. Long boards are more of a problem.

Knowing what I know now, I'd get a #5 plane on Ebay that wasn't a basket-case (low rust, all parts present, no obvious damage to metal parts, enough blade left) and put a 25 degree razor edge on it with a very slight camber so the edges don't dig. If the wood shows figure that tears-out, put a 5 degree back bevel on the iron to increase the angle of attack. The jack is long enough to do edge-jointing too. Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls -- all good brands as long as they aren't too new.


I like spending other people's money so get a #3 or #4 size smoother to clean-up the ridges from the jack plane. That's not absolutely necessary, though. I do think you should invest in a good quality hand scraper and learn to hook the edge for the finest surface prep.

The height of the work and how you secure it matters a lot. I'm 5'8" and my main bench top is 34". I fiddled with that so my arms would be exactly where I want them when working 5/4 stock. Make sure the piece can't move and that whatever you use to hold it in place doesn't stick up higher than the board. You might find that pushing the plane straight forward but held slightly skewed creates more of a slicing action than when the iron edge is dead perpendicular to the grain. Pay attention to the light too.

In summary: don't overthink it. You'll know a lot more in an hour of doing than four of reading. The second board will take half as long as the first. sh

[steven c newman]

Ok, tell you what....walk into the Harbor Freight store, or go online to their store......order the Windsor #33 handplane. When you get it home, regrind the edge of the thick cutter it uses into a 3" radius. So...for about $10, (plus shipping..) you now have a very hungry #3 sized scrub plane to try out.

I also found a Corsair #C-5 Jack plane ( yes, the ones that use a single bolt to hold the frog) for about $8 or so. I ground the edge into a decent 8" camber. So, now I have both the small scrub plane, and a Cambered Jack plane...for less than $20...both will take a beating, but...they don't seem to mind a bit.

I also have a Stanley #5 jack with a shallow camber, and a second one with just the corners done. There is a Millers Falls No. 14 jack, with almost zero camber I use as a long smoother. No..you can't have too many jack planes..

Try planes consist of a Stanley #6c, type 10, and an Ohio Tool Co. #81 wood bodied plane.

Smoothers in the shop? A mix of Stanley #3 and #4s and Miller Falls No.8 and No.9 size.

"Jointers" would be the Stanley and Ohio Tool co. #7 size. There are also a Stanley #29, and #31. Very little if any camber to them.

There are a few "in-between" sizes sitting around, too. More to match the size of the work.

Right now, as soon as I am allowed back in the shop, I have a chunk of rough-sawn Walnut to work over..
342137
I jointed that edge, as I want to have a reference to cut this down to something I can work with. Plane sitting there is a Stanley #7c

[Jim Koepke]

No..you can't have too many jack planes..

As the old saying goes, 342139

Currently there are four #5 Stanley planes in my shop. It seems my needs only require two. Of course I have a #5-1/4 junior jack, another #5-1/4 set up for a scrub, a #5-1/2 and a pair of #6s so the jack plane sizes are pretty well covered. There is also a #3 size plane that occasionally is used like a scrub plane.

Steven and I tend to be among the maximalists when it comes to our tools. Many folks like to be minimalists in the number of tools they allow to take up space in their shops.

When you get down to the facts of wood working, it is possible to do it all with one plane, but not efficient or advisable. It is also not necessary to adopt every inexpensive plane that is offered.

Each person has to find their own happy medium.

jtk

[Patrick Cox]

Patrick, I may be inviting some flames here but the 8/4 boards you show in the picture shouldn't take more than 10-minutes a side with any decent plane. If there are 20 more of them out-of-frame maybe you get more specialized. You certainly don't need a scrubber for mill-sawn stock -- unless it is really warped. Yours doesn't appear that way. Long boards are more of a problem.

Knowing what I know now, I'd get a #5 plane on Ebay that wasn't a basket-case (low rust, all parts present, no obvious damage to metal parts, enough blade left) and put a 25 degree razor edge on it with a very slight camber so the edges don't dig. If the wood shows figure that tears-out, put a 5 degree back bevel on the iron to increase the angle of attack. The jack is long enough to do edge-jointing too. Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls -- all good brands as long as they aren't too new.


I like spending other people's money so get a #3 or #4 size smoother to clean-up the ridges from the jack plane. That's not absolutely necessary, though. I do think you should invest in a good quality hand scraper and learn to hook the edge for the finest surface prep.

The height of the work and how you secure it matters a lot. I'm 5'8" and my main bench top is 34". I fiddled with that so my arms would be exactly where I want them when working 5/4 stock. Make sure the piece can't move and that whatever you use to hold it in place doesn't stick up higher than the board. You might find that pushing the plane straight forward but held slightly skewed creates more of a slicing action than when the iron edge is dead perpendicular to the grain. Pay attention to the light too.

In summary: don't overthink it. You'll know a lot more in an hour of doing than four of reading. The second board will take half as long as the first. sh

Very helpful. And yes, I agree that I need to get working and I will learn from that. Or have better questions to ask! Thanks!

[Patrick Chase]

Ok, tell you what....walk into the Harbor Freight store, or go online to their store......order the Windsor #33 handplane. When you get it home, regrind the edge of the thick cutter it uses into a 3" radius. So...for about $10, (plus shipping..) you now have a very hungry #3 sized scrub plane to try out.

I bought one of these for kicks a while back, and all I can say is: Don't do it if you're the least bit obsessive about your tools. I spent a couple/few hours and a bunch of abrasives flattening the sole and blade back, filing the bed, and otherwise bringing the thing up to what I consider "minimal acceptable condition". When I include the value of my time it was not a smart move overall.

Of course very little of what I did is absolutely necessary if all you want is a beater plane or scrub conversion, so if you trust yourself to not overdo it then by all means get one. I unfortunately didn't have that much self control.

Oh, and after all that work it's merely the best possible POS it can be.



I also have a Stanley #5 jack with a shallow camber, and a second one with just the corners done. There is a Millers Falls No. 14 jack, with almost zero camber I use as a long smoother. No..you can't have too many jack planes..

True that. I'm not going to say how many I have, except that it's more than the fingers on one hand if you count the 2 jack-sized rabbet planes.

[steven c newman]

Been using that #33 for quite a few years now. Has needed to be sharpened twice, I think. It is, after all, just a scrub plane, makes no bones about it, and it one hungry little beasty.....it will never be a smoother, but that is ok. It does the jobs asked of it. If one looks at a Stanley #40.....you will see about the same rough& ready setup. Vintage 40s are running way more than the little Windsor #33.

IF you do get one to use as a scrub plane, fine. If later on you don't like it.....those handles will come in very handy for other planes needing replacement handles...
342148342149
After all, what did you expect for ten bucks?

[Skip Helms]

You're welcome Patrick,

The saw marks on that board aren't any worse than the ridges a scrub plane would leave after hogging off usable wood. I resort to scrubbers more for slabs than boards.

I think I have nine planes that either are or were jacks. Of the still jack planes:

5 1/2 type 11
5C type 11
5 type 11
5 1/4 type 15 (I think)
10 (sort of a jack plane)
Sargent 414 VBM
Sargent 414 1930's (personal favorite)

of the used to be's:

Shelton weird patented adjuster turned into the aforementioned scrubber with 4" camber
Sargent 414 with the bed milled to 11 degrees as a bevel-up low-angle shooting-board plane
Shelton standard frog shortened to 11" and hogged out as a 60 degree "half pitch" smoother

So nine if you disqualify the #10 carriage plane.

I've hack-butchered a bunch of #4 sized bottoms too and probably made a third of my planes from scratch. These days you can buy lots of specialty lutherie planes but 25 years ago you either made them or did without.

Again, you only need one to start and you have to be able to sharpen it first. Good luck, sh

342160

[Patrick Chase]

After all, what did you expect for ten bucks?

I expected exactly what I got, with the exception of the stripped adjustment nut on the first example. I just didn't account for my own behavioral limitations when I bought it :-).

[Patrick Chase]

I think I have nine planes that either are or were jacks. Of the still jack planes:

5 1/2 type 11
5C type 11
5 type 11
5 1/4 type 15 (I think)
10 (sort of a jack plane)
Sargent 414 VBM
Sargent 414 1930's (personal favorite)

of the used to be's:

Shelton weird patented adjuster turned into the aforementioned scrubber with 4" camber
Sargent 414 with the bed milled to 11 degrees as a bevel-up low-angle shooting-board plane
Shelton standard frog shortened to 11" and hogged out as a 60 degree "half pitch" smoother

OK, now that I have some fellow "extreme plane hoarder" camouflage:


#5 with 6" cambered blade. At full extension (such that the blade corners are flush with the sole) this plane takes almost exactly the same depth of cut (~70 mils, 1/16") as a #40-1/2 with 3" camber, so I think it's open interpretation whether you would call this a "scrub conversion". It certainly can do the same stuff about as quickly.
#5 with straight blade (though see footnote)
#5-1/4W with 12" cambered blade, which takes a ~1/32" cut at full extension. It's useful when I want to remove a fair amount of material but short of all-out hogging. It also has a fairly long nose for its length, which I find useful when doing cross/diagonal strokes on wider, cupped boards as it has less tendency to "follow the cup" at the start of the stroke.
#5-1/2 with straight and R=16" blades
Bevel-Up Jack (basically a #62-1/2) with mostly straight blades in a range of angles
#10-1/4 - A jack-sized rabbet plane similar to Skip's #10
Bevel-Up Jack Rabbet - Another jack-sized rabbet plane, but bevel-up

I also have a #40-1/2 scrub with R=3" and R=4" radius blades, and a #6 that's sometimes used with an R=16" blade (~same cut depth as the R=12" blade in the 5-1/4W) for intermediate work.
When I say "straight" many of those blades actually have a bit of corner relief, but since we're talking about roughing that isn't enough to be worth discussing.

[Trevor Goodwin]

Patrick (chase), what sort of stuff do you make? Must be into all sorts of furniture with that many planes!

[Stewie Simpson]

Trevor; that's only a small sample of Patricks full list of hand planes.

Stewie;

[Steve Voigt]

For God's sake, what is wrong with you people? I have three jacks and two of them are in mothballs; in terms of daily use, I use ONE jack for all my rough planing. If you're one of these people with ten jack planes, sell nine of them and use the one that's left. You might actually become proficient with it.

[Patrick Chase]

For God's sake, what is wrong with you people? I have three jacks and two of them are in mothballs; in terms of daily use, I use ONE jack for all my rough planing. If you're one of these people with ten jack planes, sell nine of them and use the one that's left. You might actually become proficient with it.

What's wrong? I said it myself: "Extreme plane hoarder". It could be a new reality show in some horrendous nook of cable TV...

[steven c newman]

Well....at least the 14 block planes I have do not take up much room.....

[Patrick Chase]

Well....at least the 14 block planes I have do not take up much room.....

Wow, what's up with that? I only have 6 (unless you count edge trimmers, which would make 8).

Low Angle, Junky Low Angle, Regular Angle, Apron Plane, LH Skew Block, RH Skew Block, LH Edge-Trimming Plane, RH Edge-Trimming Plane

[Kees Heiden]

For God's sake, what is wrong with you people? I have three jacks and two of them are in mothballs; in terms of daily use, I use ONE jack for all my rough planing. If you're one of these people with ten jack planes, sell nine of them and use the one that's left. You might actually become proficient with it.

I think it is normal human behaviour. Hoarding, or collecting if you want to be nice, is deeply engrained in our DNA. Something about still having some in times of need. The problem of course is that we nowadays don't have these regular periods of shortage anymore so we eat too much, and we hoard too much stuff.

I have a full set of Stanley bench planes plus a full set of wooden planes plus some that don't fit in either category. That's rediculous of course. But hey they were cheap! And you can't talk with the other guys when you don't own some yourself! Luckilly I managed to avoid the lust to buy new planes, saved me a bunch of money.

Regarding scrub and jack planes, when you are into vintage wooden planes then it's easy to end up with a lot of them. Many old woodies aren't fit for anything anymore except being converted into a jack plane like configuration. Apart from the "real" German scrub I also have a wider German plane with a wide open mouth, a Dutch Gerf plane with a wide mouth, a longer foreplane with a similar setup. All those planes are really not worth anything so it's no use to put them up for sale. Besides, they have some curiosity value, even if I don't use them anymore.

[Skip Helms]

For God's sake, what is wrong with you people? I have three jacks and two of them are in mothballs; in terms of daily use, I use ONE jack for all my rough planing. If you're one of these people with ten jack planes, sell nine of them and use the one that's left. You might actually become proficient with it.


I'll work on being more proficient.

Who would buy them? This is the Neanderthal forum for a reason. People get these things to put on shelves at B&Bs. I only have ones I'll use but I enjoy fixing up beaters and giving them another chance. Got an electrolysis tub for just that. Some of them get a makeover, though (see below). Except for a NOS chisel I recently posted about, every old tool I've got has a forgotten history.

I hope you'll approve of my recommendation to Patrick to get a decent #5 size plane and mill his boards with care. sh

342162

The background plane is a 55 degree made from a Stanley #4 bottom. The plane in the foreground is a 60 degree heavy smoother chopped from a Shelton #5 size. I still need to finish the brightwork and harden the iron.

[Prashun Patel]

I have bought many planes in the quest of the one that fits my hand like a glove.

I'm realizing it's as much the hand as it is the glove. Am paring down the herd (speaking of paring; don't get me started on chisel hoarding.)

That being said, it's SOOOOOO hard to resist getting more.

For my wife it's bags. For me it's tools.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have two jack planes, one wooden jack that David Weaver made for me, and the LN low angle jack that I use as a rough shooting plane. More or less because I like to keep David's plane in good shape on the sides.

Kanna on the other hand, I find much easier to accumulate.

[Skip Helms]

I have bought many planes in the quest of the one that fits my hand like a glove.

Prashun; that's one of the nice things about making your own. That half-pitch plane was built for my grip. Every ten (or so) file strokes I'd pull it out of the vise and test the fit. sh

[steven c newman]

Well, to keep Patrick's nerves settled down, I thought I'd keep things simple tonight..
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This is the "good" stuff from the slab of Walnut. Decided to try to surface the two faces of ONE board, as that is about all the work I am allowed to do, pending the docs approval..
342183
Boards are 25" long, a bit too short to use a #7 on, so I used a #5-1/2.....
Got it almost done, then went with a shorter plane, to smooth things out..
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Stanley #4,T-13, SW. Hey, it only cost me $2...
342185
Front to rear: Stanley #5c, #5, #5-1/2. Maybe I 'll get the "other" brand a chance next time?
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Maybe...

[Chuck Hart]

Brian whats the secret to get David to make you a plane. I would really like one of his try planes.

[Rich Riddle]

Being an electrical outcast, typically dimensioning boards involves a MiniMax jointer/planer. It's a tad faster than the other method and you can still use hand tools to get to the final size. I am odd-man-out here though.

[Steve Kang]

I have bought many planes in the quest of the one that fits my hand like a glove.

I'm realizing it's as much the hand as it is the glove. Am paring down the herd (speaking of paring; don't get me started on chisel hoarding.)

That being said, it's SOOOOOO hard to resist getting more.

For my wife it's bags. For me it's tools.


And where are you on your perfect jack journey? Which planes have made the keeper list?