Pigmented Lacquer vs BM Advance for built-ins

[Victor Robinson]

I have a few built-ins and cabinets to finish coming up in a month or so. All are in our home as part of a basement renovation. Most will be white and some a light gray color. I've used both Target EM6500 pigmented lacquer and Ben Moore Advance in the past. I'll be spraying with HVLP, though I also have an airless Graco gun, which does a little better with the Advance IMO.

Even though I've used both on smaller projects with good results, and a good portion of the trim in our home is painted with Advance, I just can't decide which is the more appropriate finish for me to use on this larger project, when things like cost and efficiency are going to matter a bit more.

My gut says to go with the lacquer, as I think I can get a better off-the-gun finish and faster cure time compared to the Advance, which in my experience has required more sanding to get perfectly smooth. Would you think there is a significant difference in durability and/or moisture resistance? Most of the built-ins are shelving/cabinetry in a non-moisture area, small amount of cabinetry in a bar area, and one built-in in a bathroom.

Just looking for some thoughts to push me one way or the other...thanks...

[Wayne Lomman]

Victor, the EM6500 will be a better proposition. You will get a good finish and a civilised curing time. It will withstand the conditions the furniture will be in but if you want a bit extra reassurance, you could use the optional crosslinking additive in the bathroom and bar.

The BM Advance is an alkyd coating and they are slower curing and not noted for their sandability. I am not surprised that it sprays better with an airless. Of course I could be biased by the many miserable hours blasting old alkyd off ship hulls. I NEVER EVER put alkyd back on a job of any description. Cheers

[Victor Robinson]

Victor, the EM6500 will be a better proposition. You will get a good finish and a civilised curing time. It will withstand the conditions the furniture will be in but if you want a bit extra reassurance, you could use the optional crosslinking additive in the bathroom and bar.

The BM Advance is an alkyd coating and they are slower curing and not noted for their sandability. I am not surprised that it sprays better with an airless. Of course I could be biased by the many miserable hours blasting old alkyd off ship hulls. I NEVER EVER put alkyd back on a job of any description. Cheers

Thanks Wayne...I've never used the cross-linker with any of their products. Do you have any experience with it? Straightforward?

Yeah, the BM hardens to full cure over the course of a few weeks. In my use it's usually sandable after a few days, even 48h, but at that rate it would take weeks to finish these projects.

[John TenEyck]

If you can get the color you want w/o a hassle I would go with TC's product. It will cure in a few days. If you want any color imaginable, you can get it with BM Advance. I'm not sure you can spray it very effectively with a HVLP gun, however, unless it's a pressure assisted one. I just sprayed some on a bath project and it sprayed great with my pressure assisted gun; absolutely factory quality finish. I sprayed it over BIN pigmented shellac primer, and I was able to sand it to powder after 20 hours with only a few corns on the sandpaper. My shop was about 70 F and 50% RH. It does take a long time to fully cure, however, I think at least 3 or 4 weeks.

If I could do the whole job by spray I'd use the TC product. If I had to do some of it by brush, I'd use Advance. It flows out better than any other product I've used.

John

[Victor Robinson]

If you can get the color you want w/o a hassle I would go with TC's product. It will cure in a few days. If you want any color imaginable, you can get it with BM Advance. I'm not sure you can spray it very effectively with a HVLP gun, however, unless it's a pressure assisted one. I just sprayed some on a bath project and it sprayed great with my pressure assisted gun; absolutely factory quality finish. I sprayed it over BIN pigmented shellac primer, and I was able to sand it to powder after 20 hours with only a few corns on the sandpaper. My shop was about 70 F and 50% RH. It does take a long time to fully cure, however, I think at least 3 or 4 weeks.

If I could do the whole job by spray I'd use the TC product. If I had to do some of it by brush, I'd use Advance. It flows out better than any other product I've used.

John

Thank you John. My HVLP is not pressure-assisted. You know, supposedly the EM6500 can be tinted with Ben Moore Gennex pigments, and I can take my cans to my dealer and get them to tint them. I haven't fully looked into it though, and I imagine some BM dealers will be more comfortable with this than others, and I have no idea what they'll charge. I don't see a way to order tinted direct from TC though they do advertise such a service...I imagine it's doable but perhaps only for larger orders. I can't imagine I'll need more than 2 gallons of the gray.

Supposedly the EM6500 is "brush-friendly" - whatever that means. I doubt it flows as well as the Advance.

[John TenEyck]

BM Advance has a viscosity of 500 seconds #4 Ford Cup (what I measured). The TC product is 30 seconds #4 Zahn cup, which is less than 100 seconds #4 Ford cup. That's about the same as GF's Enduro White Poly. In any case, the TC product is a completely different animal compared to Advance. You should be able to spray the TC product with a gravity feed HVLP gun with a large enough N/N and maybe a little thinning. You would definitely have to thin the Advance to have any chance, and probably quite a bit.

With a gravity feed gun, I'd would choose EM-6500. I'll be interested to hear your experience getting BM to tint it. I've heard they will, but don't know anyone who's actually had it done.

John

[Jamie Buxton]

I've just had a good experience getting a waterborne lacquer tinted. The lacquer is Sherwin Williams Kem Aqua. It is available in both a clear lacquer, and in a mixing base. The mixing base sprays quite like GF's Enduro White Poly. (I use a three-stage turbine HLVP.) Not all Sherwin Williams stores carry Kem Aqua, but one in the Bay Area does. SW calls it a Product Finishes branch. It is at 1033 Montague Ave, San Leandro, CA 94577. They say they'll match any light color from any paint manufacturer's paint deck. Take them a sample of the color you want -- a color card, an old door, whatever. They measure the sample with a machine to get them started, and may tweak the results by eye. The one example I've had with them, the color match was spot on. (The color card was from Benjamin Moore, and they didn't blink at all.) They want several days to do the match, depending on their backlog. The only downside is that the paint costs $90 per gallon. But then, that's pretty much what GF White Poly costs these days, and it isn't inappropriate to pay for the color matching service. I'll go back to them the next time I need to spray cabinets.

[Victor Robinson]

I've just had a good experience getting a waterborne lacquer tinted. The lacquer is Sherwin Williams Kem Aqua. It is available in both a clear lacquer, and in a mixing base. The mixing base sprays quite like GF's Enduro White Poly. (I use a three-stage turbine HLVP.) Not all Sherwin Williams stores carry Kem Aqua, but one in the Bay Area does. SW calls it a Product Finishes branch. It is at 1033 Montague Ave, San Leandro, CA 94577. They say they'll match any light color from any paint manufacturer's paint deck. Take them a sample of the color you want -- a color card, an old door, whatever. They measure the sample with a machine to get them started, and may tweak the results by eye. The one example I've had with them, the color match was spot on. (The color card was from Benjamin Moore, and they didn't blink at all.) They want several days to do the match, depending on their backlog. The only downside is that the paint costs $90 per gallon. But then, that's pretty much what GF White Poly costs these days, and it isn't inappropriate to pay for the color matching service. I'll go back to them the next time I need to spray cabinets.

Jamie, thanks for the tip on the Kem Aqua. I've heard good things about it. It's definitely an option if I don't have good luck getting the EM6500 tinted locally. I wonder if any other SW stores carry KA...I would have thought there would be San Francisco stores that do. San Leandro is a bit of a trek, but I may just pick up some KA next time I'm down there.

I've sprayed the TC product (mostly clear...EM6000) a fair amount in various sheens and am comfortable with it, so that's the only thing holding me back from trying the SW product. San Leandro is not ideal, but doable. I'll see if I can get BM to do the tinting for me...might require a little coordination between TC and my paint shop. I'll report back how it goes.

John, I might have misunderstood what you meant by "pressure-assisted." Thought you meant a pressure pot? I'm spraying with a 4 stage Fuji/bottom cup. Truth is it sprays Advance fine thinned 10% with water and a #4 tip, but doesn't level out for me on flat surfaces as nice as I'd like and I end up having to do more than just a scuff sand. That's why the cure time (or rather, time-to-sand) on the Advance really adds up and steers me away on this larger project. It could be that I can get better results spraying the Advance by fiddling with various parameters on the HVLP, but the TC product is less fuss. My Graco gun (Truecoat pro ii) sprays the Advance great, but just slightly thicker than I tend to be comfortable with for cabinetry, even with the finest tip. So yes, it looks like it will be the EM6500 for this project, pending the tinting issue.

[Jamie Buxton]

In my experience, clear waterborne lacquer is considerably runnier than waterborne mixing base. For the mixing base, there's lots of pigment in the product, so it is considerably thicker. Tip selections and gun settings which work on clear waterborne don't work on the pigmented version. That said, with your 4-stage turbine you should have plenty of oomph to spray EM6500 or GF white poly or SW Kem Aqua mixing base.

[Wayne Lomman]

Victor, I have never bothered with the cross linker - to my mind, the product is OK as is so long as it is not directly in a splash zone. The thing I hate about alkyd is that it never gets what you would call fully hard and if you apply any source of heat to it, you will find it softens again. This is what happens when blasting it off - the blast heats it enough that you have to peel it of rather than the abrasive cutting it off. Good luck with the job. Cheers