Flattening a Japanese Whetstone.

[Stewie Simpson]

AOTO NAKATO Natural Japanese Stone. AO = (Blue) TO = (Whetstone) NAKATO = (Medium Grit 2000 - 3000)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0177_zpsyisezobf.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0177_zpsyisezobf.jpg.html)

Glass Sanding Plates fitted with Hermes Wet & Dry Paper; L-R 180g, 240g, 320g, 400g.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0176_zpsk8wpbwot.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0176_zpsk8wpbwot.jpg.html)

Aoto Nakato Stone after 400g flattening.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0178_zpsm0ujm1r2.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0178_zpsm0ujm1r2.jpg.html)

Glass Sanding Plates cleaned up (after use) with tap water.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0181_zpswrb4ez6x.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0181_zpswrb4ez6x.jpg.html)

Stewie;

[Brian Holcombe]

Stewie, you may want to lacquer the sides of that stone.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, you may want to lacquer the sides of that stone.

Hi Brian. I have limited experience using Japanese water stones. Look forward to hearing your advice.

Stewie;

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Stewie,

It is advisable to paint the sides of the stone in Cashew lacquer combined with a paper wrapping to help support the individual layers of the stone and prevent them from separating.

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Stewie,

It is advisable to paint the sides of the stone in Cashew lacquer combined with a paper wrapping to help support the individual layers of the stone and prevent them from separating.

Brian. Be dammed if I am going to be wrapping the sides of this or any other japanese water stone in Cashew Lacquer and paper wrapping. I have a tin of BondCrete in the workshop, I will use that to coat the sides of the stone. http://www.bondall.com/wp-content/uploads/BC_DL_MAG_110420.pdf

I purchased this stone back in 30/07/2007, directly from Japan for Au71.14.

Stewie;

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Stewie,

Not sure what the excitement is about. There is a two-tier logic in using cashew lacquer, and the second part of it is that it nice to look at. Not sure Bond crete carries the same appeal, further unsure that if you ever resell the stone that potential second owners would carry a flag for BondCrete.

Glad to hear that you've owned the stone for a while.

Cheers
Brian

[Stewie Simpson]

Brian. BondCrete looks and has the same consistency as white pva glue, when applied it dries quickly to a clear finish, supplying a waterproof membrane over porous materials.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Brian. Attached is a link I found on applying Cashew Lacquer to a jnat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKeRRZcXNIs

[Brian Holcombe]

I dont bother diluting it, but it's probably wise to dilute it slightly. It's very thick, like syrup.

Here is one I did, and in the background one in clear lacquer.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/322FA8C7-BE56-4231-9CBF-9ACDFF8C750C_zpseohmhntt.jpg

Here is one that came from Japan with the lacquer already applied.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/F9BDFDC0-53AB-4BC8-8977-BF826AD53749_zpsui89shss.jpg

It takes a good long while to cure, so I believe diluting with turp. also cuts down on that time.

[Stewie Simpson]

Using Gum Turpentine.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Very interesting. I was not aware of cashew lacquer. One thing I know about cashews is the shell is very caustic and contains urushiol, which is the stuff that makes poison ivy a menace. Curiosity caused me to contact Professor Google, and I found this article that suggests there should be caution when using it. http://dragomyr.org/4-Content/4c-Writing/Budo/Urushi_Lacquer.htm

Any thoughts on that? Here is what cashews look like off the tree. The fruit smells and tastes like muskidines. My wife hates the smell and won't even allow them in the house. I love it. There is only one cashew per fruit, and you MUST carefully remove the shell and boil the nut before eating or it would be like eating poison ivy.

341926

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Brian. I have limited experience using Jap water stones. Look forward to hearing your advice.

Stewie;

Can we please use "Japanese"? The other form has pretty nasty historical connotations.

[Stewie Simpson]

Fair enough Patrick. Is it okay if I use the term japnats. (Japanese natural whetstones).

Stewie;

[Stanley Covington]

Brian. BondCrete looks and has the same consistency as white pva glue, when applied it dries quickly to a clear finish, supplying a waterproof membrane over porous materials.

Stewie;

Stewie

I am not familiar with Bondall Bondcrete. Looks like an Aussie product. Website seems to stress concrete, underlayment and masonry patching etc purposes. Does it contain any hard particles?

The website states it is not suited to constant exposure to moisture. Is it ideal for a wetstone?

Lacquer (Urshiol base) is absolutely unaffected by water. It does not have the solids or bonding strength of modern epoxies, much less Bond Crete, and it causes allergic reactions and rashes in most people until cured.

I would like to learn more about your adventures with BondCrete!

[Stanley Covington]

Very interesting. I was not aware of cashew lacquer. One thing I know about cashews is the shell is very caustic and contains urushiol, which is the stuff that makes poison ivy a menace. Curiosity caused me to contact Professor Google, and I found this article that suggests there should be caution when using it. http://dragomyr.org/4-Content/4c-Writing/Budo/Urushi_Lacquer.htm

Any thoughts on that? Here is what cashews look like off the tree. The fruit smells and tastes like muskidines. My wife hates the smell and won't even allow them in the house. I love it. There is only one cashew per fruit, and you MUST carefully remove the shell and boil the nut before eating or it would be like eating poison ivy.

341926

Cashew is sold and used as a natural urethane here in Japan. I have used it on jobsites, most recently the Four Seasons Kyoto. The smell is unique, and not especially pleasant, but it does not cause the allergic reaction and rashes natural lacquer does. I use it on all my finish wetstones (>6000). I believe it really does extend the life of my natural stones, and even my synthetic stones. I have tried natural lacquer, but curing is a pain, and the smell of the uncured product alone makes my wife horribly sick.

Not sure where you buy Cashew outside Japan, but Brian bought it somewhere...

Stan

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Hi Stewie,

It is advisable to paint the sides of the stone in Cashew lacquer combined with a paper wrapping to help support the individual layers of the stone and prevent them from separating.

I agree with Brian about the Cashew application. Natural Japanese stones are sedimentary in nature, created in layers of dust (mostly volcanic) falling from the sky into the ocean or lakes and settling as silt. When using the stone to sharpen, water dribbled down the sides tends to cause the bonds between these various layers, as well as at cracks, to separate. Cashew or lacquer helps to prevent water from soaking into a stone's sides reducing this tendency to separate. I lost a significant portion of a decent stone to this problem once.

Applying paper to the sides is a trick I have never used, nor do I know anyone that does it. There is a fellow named Chiga that teaches sharpening at the Kezuroukai that advocates it. It couldn't hurt.

He uses a paper called "washi" meaning "Japanese Paper," made from mulberry tree fibers. Are far as paper goes, washi is said to be the strongest made from natural materials. Idunno.

He attaches it to the sides of his stones with PVA glue, then topcoats with natural clear lacquer, which has an reddish amber color. In the pictures I have pasted below, he used washi that had calligraphy or other images printed on it for an interesting appearance.

Stan

342010

[Brian Holcombe]

Stan,

I found it on a website called Hyper-Cafe, which sells it along with hon urashi and katana making accessories, they are based on CA. Bit pricey here in the states, but hon urashi was even more so and so I decided to stick with the cashew.

Edit, just saw your other post.

Not something I do, but So-san recommended me to add a wrap of washi paper and lacquer to the Tsushima stone which is already lacquered but suggested I still do so....and I may have to give it a try.

Cheers
Brian

[ken hatch]

Cashew is sold and used as a natural urethane here in Japan. I have used it on jobsites, most recently the Four Seasons Kyoto. The smell is unique, and not especially pleasant, but it does not cause the allergic reaction and rashes natural lacquer does. I use it on all my finish wetstones (>6000). I believe it really does extend the life of my natural stones, and even my synthetic stones. I have tried natural lacquer, but curing is a pain, and the smell of the uncured product alone makes my wife horribly sick.

Not sure where you buy Cashew outside Japan, but Brian bought it somewhere...

Stan

Stan

Here is where I get mine: http://www.teadogu.com/calasptyofja.html

ken

[Patrick Chase]

Stewie

I am not familiar with Bondall Bondcrete. Looks like an Aussie product. Website seems to stress concrete, underlayment and masonry patching etc purposes. Does it contain any hard particles?

The website states it is not suited to constant exposure to moisture. Is it ideal for a wetstone?

Lacquer (Urshiol base) is absolutely unaffected by water. It does not have the solids or bonding strength of modern epoxies, much less Bond Crete, and it causes allergic reactions and rashes in most people until cured.

I would like to learn more about your adventures with BondCrete!

Based on the description, application guide, and range of applications it's a 2-part acrylic resin, in the same broad class as 3M 805 ("Scotch-Weld").

Those resins are commonly used as concrete admixtures, without particulate fillers. The general idea is to toughen the bonding of the existing particles in the concrete, not add to them.

If you look around you can find 2-part acrylics optimized for various applications. BondCrete seems to be an attempt at a one-size-fits-all version, which may or may not be a good thing.

Although some acrylics can handle soaking the TDS for BondCrete says it shouldn't be used that way, as you point out.

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.slideshare.net/vishalmediratta1/bondcrete-water-thinable

[Stewie Simpson]

Aoto Nakato Natural Whetstone 2000 - 3000 medium grit; replaced the wooden base with 12mm laminated glass, followed by 4 coats of Garnet Shellac to seal and protect the stones strata.

Stewie;

Before and After photo;s

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0177_zpsyisezobf.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0177_zpsyisezobf.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0183_zps9vioune0.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/water%20stone%20flattening/_DSC0183_zps9vioune0.jpg.html)

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie

I am not familiar with Bondall Bondcrete. Looks like an Aussie product. Website seems to stress concrete, underlayment and masonry patching etc purposes. Does it contain any hard particles?

The website states it is not suited to constant exposure to moisture. Is it ideal for a wetstone?

Lacquer (Urshiol base) is absolutely unaffected by water. It does not have the solids or bonding strength of modern epoxies, much less Bond Crete, and it causes allergic reactions and rashes in most people until cured.

I would like to learn more about your adventures with BondCrete!

Stanley and Brian; the trial with the BondCrete didn't happen. The 4L tin I had in the workshop had exceeded its used by date, and had solidified beyond use. With hindsight, the BondCrete being a water based product, would likely not have lasted too long as an exterior coating, given the stones high exposure to saturated water. Plan B was the Garnet shellac. Being spirit base, it should better withstand this level of dampness. The brush application of the shellac to the stones surface went exceedingly well, with the time delay between each coat at a low 2-3 min. Hopefully this info will be of assistance.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Stanley and Brian; the trial with the BondCrete didn't happen. The 4L tin I had in the workshop had exceeded its used by date, and had solidified beyond use. With hindsight, the BondCrete being a water based product, would likely not have lasted too long as an exterior coating, given the stones high exposure to saturated water. Plan B was the Garnet shellac. Being spirit base, it should better withstand this level of dampness. The brush application of the shellac to the stones surface went exceedingly well, with the time delay between each coat at a low 2-3 min. Hopefully this info will be of assistance.

Stewie;

Totally nit-picky but... there are water-based resins that are robust to immersion when cured. Water-based polyurethane varnishes are an obvious example, but there are also immersion-proof 2-part acrylic resins in the same broad family as BondCrete. The maker of BondCrete sells something called HydroCrete that appears to fit that description, though it's more specialized than BondCrete in terms of application (and based on my limited knowledge of how acrylics bond and cure it makes sense that that would be the case). It's all a tradeoff, as always :-).

[ken hatch]

I kinda have one rule with woodworking, I don't always hold to it but most of the time when I do not, I pay the price. That rule is if I can figure out how they did it back towards the turn of the last century that is more than likely the best way to do it today. Cashew Lacquer is the traditional way to stabilize Japanese Natural stones, it has worked and worked well for a long time, Why do it differently? Am I missing something?

ken

[Trevor Goodwin]

I kinda have one rule with woodworking, I don't always hold to it but most of the time when I do not, I pay the price. That rule is if I can figure out how they did it back towards the turn of the last century that is more than likely the best way to do it today. Cashew Lacquer is the traditional way to stabilize Japanese Natural stones, it has worked and worked well for a long time, Why do it differently? Am I missing something?

ken

Or you could just use what you have at hand and is available in your country. Last time I checked the the traditional way to flatten water stones isn't with progressive grits of silicon carbide paper on glass... But it does a bloody good job and has no detrimental effects to the stone. Did they have silicon carbide paper at the turn of the century? Stewie isn't Japanese nor is he living in Japan - he just want to use a stone that comes from Japan for his sharpening, I don't get why people are insisting he does everything the "traditional" way when clearly there are alternatives that work just as well if not better.

[Stanley Covington]

I kinda have one rule with woodworking, I don't always hold to it but most of the time when I do not, I pay the price. That rule is if I can figure out how they did it back towards the turn of the last century that is more than likely the best way to do it today. Cashew Lacquer is the traditional way to stabilize Japanese Natural stones, it has worked and worked well for a long time, Why do it differently? Am I missing something?

ken

Not sure Cashew qualifies as "traditional." It is a less toxic and perhaps more durable alternative to natural lacquer, but it has not been around a 100 years.

Stan

[Stewie Simpson]

Or you could just use what you have at hand and is available in your country. Last time I checked the the traditional way to flatten water stones isn't with progressive grits of silicon carbide paper on glass... But it does a bloody good job and has no detrimental effects to the stone. Did they have silicon carbide paper at the turn of the century? Stewie isn't Japanese nor is he living in Japan - he just want to use a stone that comes from Japan for his sharpening, I don't get why people are insisting he does everything the "traditional" way when clearly there are alternatives that work just as well if not better.

Thankyou for the moral support Trevor. A quick search on previous postings reveals I wasn't the 1st to use shellac as a substitute to cashew lacquer.



Brian Holcombe (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?113011-Brian-Holcombe) 08-02-2016, 12:45 PM


So likes a medium finisher, which often times that works all the same for me as well. Though I tend to only work the backs with a Nakayama since I dont want them to wear away any quicker.

I just finished the Nakayama in cashew lacquer finally after so long, I had previously only shellacked it. The cashew lacquer is really thick and takes forever to cure, so your probably right to do it now while you can't use the stone. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?245901-Three-New-Stones&p=2589135&highlight=#post2589135

[Brian Holcombe]

You found me out :p

The shellac worked fine but ultimately I decided a Nakayama stone was worth doing properly.

The advice was given to me by people who I respect very highly, which is why I ultimately decided to use it and so I passed it along to you as a service, it is yours to take or leave.

[Stewie Simpson]

I kinda have one rule with woodworking, I don't always hold to it but most of the time when I do not, I pay the price. That rule is if I can figure out how they did it back towards the turn of the last century that is more than likely the best way to do it today. Cashew Lacquer is the traditional way to stabilize Japanese Natural stones, it has worked and worked well for a long time, Why do it differently? Am I missing something?

ken

Ken; your possibly lacking the ability to keep an open mind to alternate ideas. Its commonly referred to as The Lemming Effect .

http://cyclingtips.com/2010/04/the-lemming-effect/

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Ken; your possibly lacking the ability to keep an open mind to alternate ideas. Its commonly referred to as The Lemming Effect .

http://cyclingtips.com/2010/04/the-lemming-effect/

Stewie;

You mean like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZR6HK9xEVw)?

Fixie crit racers are about as lemming as it gets...

EDIT: Still OT but I totally agree with the post you linked. That's why I never do big group rides, and mostly stuck to TTs and cyclocross in what little racing I did.

[Stewie Simpson]

Brian; its reassuring to hear from you that the shellac worked fine.

regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Possibly another good example of the lemming effect, there's been so many claims made in recent times that the study done by Professors Kato and Kawai provides irrefutable evidence that the cap iron needs to be set inside a tolerance of 0.4mm to effectively reduce tear out caused by reverse grain. Then you get to read the real truth, courtesy of Bill Tindall. http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/david-c-the-text-from-the-second-cap-iron-paper-t99403.html


Hi all. I am Bill Tindall and new here. Some years ago while searching for a copy of the now famous planing video I tracked down Professors Kato and Kawai. I have corresponded with Professor Kato and he generously sent me all his scientific papers on planing as well as a copy of the video that is now widely available. (wow, this print is small and I can barely read it. No telling what I might be typing, but here goes.....)

To deal with David's submission.....I have no idea where that "translation" came from. It is a "translation" of the abstract in the paper. The original paper has an English abstract provided by the authors so there was no need to translate it. This paper was prepared as a tutorial for Kawai's students. Basically it says that when the shaving folds up like an accordion the cap iron is too close. For us, that is the only useful information in this paper.

Mia, the translator of the audio on the planing video, and the paper on wear and cutting forces, is a professional translator and woodworker and member of our club.

Kato and Kawai's work was funded by and was in support of the development of planing machines- Super Surfacers. They were mainly interested in prolonging blade life. Hence, there is work reported on the effect of cap iron on blade wear and studies on various steel alloys and blade wear as well as wear resistant coatings on the blade. None of the work investigated tear-out.

Personally, I think there is too much fuss on cap iron setting. Set it as close as you can. If the shavings scrunch up it is too close. If you get tear-out diddle with the distance until it goes away. Considering the physics of how the cap iron effect works there are too many variables to suggest one cap iron setting as best or optimum. It is an empirical journey. Accept it.

The video is NOT a tutorial on setting the cap iron. Professor Kato prepared the video for an engineering conference here in the US to demonstrate the capability of his research planing machine and photography. Many of the setting in the video never appear as settings in the planing studies as reported in the papers describing their work. Do not interpret settings in this video as recommendations.

I believe Kato and Kawai had little to say about setting a cap iron because this practice was widely used and known in Japan. There was nothing to add for the Japanese audience. Professor Kato was surprised and somewhat bewildered by the western interest in this facet of the work stirred up by the rediscovery and publication of the video in western Forums.


The following should be considered as excellent advice. imo


Personally, I think there is too much fuss on cap iron setting. Set it as close as you can. If the shavings scrunch up it is too close. If you get tear-out diddle with the distance until it goes away. Considering the physics of how the cap iron effect works there are too many variables to suggest one cap iron setting as best or optimum. It is an empirical journey. Accept it.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Professor Yasunori Kawai and Honorary Professor Chutaro
Kato, Faculty of Education, Art and Science, Yamagata University.

Marunaka Supersurfacers. http://www.solidwoodmachinery.com/supersurfacers.htm


adjustable turn table decides most suitable knife bias angle (0 - 60*)
according to the wood species and characteristics.

[Patrick Chase]

Possibly another good example of the lemming effect, there's been so many claims made in recent times that the study done by Professors Kato and Kawai provides irrefutable evidence that the cap iron needs to be set inside a tolerance of 0.4mm to effectively reduce tear out caused by reverse grain. Then you get to read the real truth, courtesy of Bill Tindall. http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/david-c-the-text-from-the-second-cap-iron-paper-t99403.html



The following should be considered as excellent advice. imo


Stewie;

I think Kees gets the last laugh here with, you know, actual data: http://planetuning.infillplane.com/html/cap_iron_study_by_kees_van_der.html

For the specific woods and grain patterns he tested most of the payoff was in fact within the first 0.3 mm.

[Kees Heiden]

How did this get into a thread about surfacing Japanese naturals?

I do indeed see most effect within the 0.3 mm range. But the problem in practice is, how to meassure? So I suggest a simple approach: When you still get tearout, set it closer.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; I can only confer with Bill Tindall's statement and my own findings. There are too many variables in place, which does raise some questions on the integrity of any study that try's to define 1 single answer to the optimum clearance of the cap iron.


Personally, I think there is too much fuss on cap iron setting. Set it as close as you can. If the shavings scrunch up it is too close. If you get tear-out diddle with the distance until it goes away. Considering the physics of how the cap iron effect works there are too many variables to suggest one cap iron setting as best or optimum. It is an empirical journey. Accept it.

Stewie;