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Yonak Hawkins
08-03-2016, 10:51 AM
The single biggest worry I have with my 12-year-old rental house is that the water heater will fail and I will have a huge, expensive mess to clean up. The house is built on a slab and the water heater is in a mechanical room separated from the rest of the house only by dry wall which would never keep large amounts of water from soaking the rugs and bottoms of the walls, not to mention the tenants' stuff.

I can't count on the tenants to immediately shut off the water in case of failure, even though I've instructed them how. Indeed, they may not even be home or it may be the middle of the night.

I wonder if there is some kind of barrier that could be put between the mechanical room and the rest of the house to contain the water and a quick drain system to the outside as the room has an outside wall. ..Or, perhaps, there is another, ready made system such as an automatic shut-off or something.

Adam Herman
08-03-2016, 11:00 AM
there are systems that will automatically shut off water: ex: http://www.watercop.com/

There is also a pan you can install with a drain: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eastman-22-in-x-24-in-Plastic-Water-Heater-Pan-with-Drain-Fitting-in-Black-60091/205971722?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cTHD%7cG%7c0%7cG-VF-PLA-D26P-WaterHeaters%7c&gclid=CjwKEAjwrIa9BRD5_dvqqazMrFESJACdv27GIYUJc6El CIAu45Eyairf5jTSjyAlif8W9moFJkwiShoCLv7w_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


i worry about a water issue in my rental as well. In reality I have never had a water heater fail in such a way that it creates a huge flood. the worst i have had happen is a pinhole in the flex line going into the water heater.

Erik Loza
08-03-2016, 11:02 AM
Pretty sure I've seen an anti-flood type kit which consisted of a moisture sensor, which I guess you would put on the floor, and a giant solenoid that got plumbed into the supply side. If the sensor detects water, the solenoid (would have be a normally-open solenoid, not normally-closed) closes and cuts off the supply.

Erik

Malcolm McLeod
08-03-2016, 1:12 PM
Pretty sure I've seen an anti-flood type kit which consisted of a moisture sensor, which I guess you would put on the floor, and a giant solenoid that got plumbed into the supply side. If the sensor detects water, the solenoid (would have be a normally-open solenoid, not normally-closed) closes and cuts off the supply.

Erik

Careful... If it's a normally open valve, the power fails, and 3 minutes later the bottom rusts out of the water tank - - what closes the valve? :eek: Batteries that you forgot to change at the same time you forgot to change 'em in the smoke detectors.:mad:

I've never looked at leak stop/prevention systems, so not sure what's out there, but I'd bet there's a lot of 'snake oil'. Just ask some common sense questions about how things can go wrong.

Helped my BIL wreck out a water heater this past weekend. The shutoff gate valve was scaled up too bad to allow a good seal, so we had to shut water off to the whole house. Oh! And let's not forget that some bone-head installed the valve on the tank OUTLET line.

...don't build yourself a massive false sense of security. I'd put in a $5 1/4-turn ball valve (!!on the tank INLET!!) and hang a renter-caliber pictograph on it showing 'closed'.

Ken Fitzgerald
08-03-2016, 1:30 PM
install a water heater pan like this https://www.zoro.com/value-brand-water-heater-pan-20-in-aluminum-qp-20/i/G4143115/?gclid=CLrcmufipc4CFQdafgodFIYDTg&gclsrc=aw.ds . Run a hose to a drain or through an outside wall.

Mike Henderson
08-03-2016, 2:27 PM
I'd make sure there's a sensor like Erik described. If you just put a pan and a drain under the water heater, when it starts leaking you won't know it. It'll just leak and leak until the leak gets too much for the drain to handle or until you notice your water bill being very high.

Mike

Peter Kelly
08-03-2016, 2:32 PM
The single biggest worry I have with my 12-year-old rental house is that the water heater will fail and I will have a huge, expensive mess to clean up. The house is built on a slab and the water heater is in a mechanical room separated from the rest of the house only by dry wall which would never keep large amounts of water from soaking the rugs and bottoms of the walls, not to mention the tenants' stuff.What is the warranty on the existing tank and how old is it? If you've done basic maintenance and periodically flushed out the sediment and replaced the anode, a glass-lined tank with a 10 year warranty should last 15 years or more.

John K Jordan
08-03-2016, 2:50 PM
The last pan I bought had a spot for a drain. I plumbed a pvc drain pipe. I hate plumbing.

JKJ

Yonak Hawkins
08-03-2016, 2:52 PM
Thanks for your advice, everyone. With only the sensor and shut-off valve, that still leaves a tank of 40 gallons of water to leak out. With only the pan, besides the unknown of how quickly the pan would overflow, as Mike says, the leak could go for awhile before knowing about it. It seems to me that both are required and that still doesn't totally ease my concerns, but it's a lot better than nothing.

Is there a reliable way to examine the water heater to head off any problems ? I keep thinking of an episode where the Feds were surveiling the Sopranos and one of them said, "That's what my water heater looked like before it blew." In the next scene the Sopranos' basement was flooded.

Wade Lippman
08-03-2016, 3:07 PM
Careful... If it's a normally open valve, the power fails, and 3 minutes later the bottom rusts out of the water tank - - what closes the valve? :eek: Batteries that you forgot to change at the same time you forgot to change 'em in the smoke detectors.:mad:

And if a meteor hits at the same time!

I just replaced a ten year old heater. I was uncomfortable with all the rust on it and figured replacing it a few years before I had to was a great deal cheaper than having it fail.

I was very tempted by the Watercop, but the previous builder put the inlet behind a wall with a tiny door; I would have to rip the wall out to do it. I still might...

Erik Loza
08-03-2016, 4:00 PM
Careful... If it's a normally open valve, the power fails, and 3 minutes later the bottom rusts out of the water tank - -

What are the odds of that happening? Supposing the contents of the tank went onto the floor, the sensor (and solenoid) would still kill supply to the tank, which I think is the whole point. I'm no expert on any of this but to my mind, the concern of the contents of the tank are a lot less than the concern about the tank letting go, and the supply side essentially becoming an open spigot into your basement or whatever. Unless I reading all this wrong?

Erik

Ken Fitzgerald
08-03-2016, 4:11 PM
37 years ago, we actually had the bottom drop out of a gas fueled water heater when we lived in a Chicago suburb. Luckily for us, my wife was home. She paged me and I told her where the water shutoff valve was located. She shut off the water and the natural gas to the W/H. That afternoon I met her at a local store where we purchased a replacement and made arrangement to have it installed. Having had a home burn down due to a gas leak, I don't do gas.

Malcolm McLeod
08-03-2016, 6:42 PM
What are the odds of that happening? Supposing the contents of the tank went onto the floor, the sensor (and solenoid) would still kill supply to the tank, which I think is the whole point. I'm no expert on any of this but to my mind, the concern of the contents of the tank are a lot less than the concern about the tank letting go, and the supply side essentially becoming an open spigot into your basement or whatever. Unless I reading all this wrong?

Erik


And if a meteor hits at the same time!

I just replaced a ten year old heater. I was uncomfortable with all the rust on it and figured replacing it a few years before I had to was a great deal cheaper than having it fail.

I was very tempted by the Watercop, but the previous builder put the inlet behind a wall with a tiny door; I would have to rip the wall out to do it. I still might...


Yonak's original leak theory is a long shot all by itself. Add my chain of events to it and it gets downright lottery-esque. I thought that was clear. But it could happen.

But please go easy on me, I get paid to figure out how something will fail, and take steps to mitigate that. All automatically. Usually. I have worked on dozens of facility-wide "fail safe" controls, and they always have a flaw (ever seen the movie?).

In this specific case, a fail-closed valve will be safer. And perhaps this is just a misunderstanding of terms? 'Fail-closed' (valve) means (at least in my world) it is closed while sitting on the shelf in the warehouse, or when no signal is supplied to it on the pipe. Some people call it a 'held-open' valve. If the signal is removed by a power failure, or the leak sensor's relay, or even the victi ...I mean home-owner, the valve closes. No midnight calls to Noah.

Todd Mason-Darnell
08-03-2016, 6:52 PM
Thanks for your advice, everyone. With only the sensor and shut-off valve, that still leaves a tank of 40 gallons of water to leak out. With only the pan, besides the unknown of how quickly the pan would overflow, as Mike says, the leak could go for awhile before knowing about it. It seems to me that both are required and that still doesn't totally ease my concerns, but it's a lot better than nothing.



Ideally, the pan is supposed to be plumbed to a drain (that is code in many places), so it should not overflow.

The other point about the pan, is that most water heater leaks don't begin as a catastrophic failure. Most leaks start small and progress over time. if the water heater is sitting on bare concrete, the concrete may absorb the moisture, so the leak is not very noticeable. By using the pan, you can spot any leaks very, very quickly and replace the water heater before it floods the house.

Malcolm Schweizer
08-03-2016, 7:55 PM
Have you considered an on demand hot water heater? I have one and I love it. I saved a lot on my power bill, and I can take the longest hot shower ever without running out the tank. No need to worry about a tank going "kaboom", and less space required. I bought the outdoor model that direct vents, so there was no vent pipe to run. Yes, there is a brief lag- 10 seconds or so- to heat the element, but from that point on you have hot water.

Rich Enders
08-03-2016, 8:38 PM
Years ago I worked at a company that developed a water heater supply shutoff system that activated if the inbound water flow was greater than the outbound water flow. Sensors were installed at the inbound and outbound water connections. Once the inbound supply is closed the vacuum created prevents further leakage. Isn't there such a system available today?

Neil Gaskin
08-03-2016, 9:36 PM
The sensor and the pan are good ideas but they do not necessary prevent all possible damage. You still have I'm guessing at least 30 gallons and maybe 50 in the tank that will end up all over. 50 gallons of water while not catostraufic has a way of screwing up a morning. If the heater is looking like it might fail and rusting its cheap insurance to replace it. You normally need to disconnect the heater to install the pan anyway so you're already paying for the labor. You're only out the cost of the heater.

Alan Rutherford
08-04-2016, 9:02 AM
It's true that most WH leaks start small, but we had one in a garage that got quite a bit of the cement floor wet. It's been a long time and I can't remember how much, but more than you want in the house.

I have an alarm that has 2 metal contacts at the end of a 4-foot wire and makes a loud screeching noise when they get wet. The contact end is in the bottom of our WH drain pan with a scrap of paper towel wrapped around it to be sure it wicks up any water onto the contacts. I try it out once in a while. I've also used it in the closet for the Air Handler Unit of our AC when we had drainage problems. It's a cheap thing I might have bought at a flea market for less than $5 but it works.

Add my vote for the ball valve.

Jim Becker
08-04-2016, 10:34 AM
Ideally, the pan is supposed to be plumbed to a drain (that is code in many places), so it should not overflow.

This. The pan must be plumbed to drain outside or to the sewer to perform its function. (Same goes for a pan under a washer...)

Rich Riddle
08-04-2016, 10:48 AM
Why wait for it to break? Replace it. Call it preventative maintenance like one does with belts and water pumps on a car.

Jerry Thompson
08-04-2016, 11:09 AM
I am glad this subject came up. Our 80 gal. water tank for our solar heated hot water is 30 years old. It is a time bomb. I just scheduled to have it replaced in the coming weeks.
Once I knocked a pot off of the dryer and it hit the drain spigot. It snapped and there was 80 gallons of hot and I mean hot H2O spewing out onto the floor. There was no way to shut it off due to the steaming hot water.
One thing is for sure. The laundry room tile was CLEAN!

Mel Fulks
08-04-2016, 11:25 AM
I've never understood why the water heaters get so much concern and the toilets get so little. Especially since toilet leaks can go unnoticed til the damage is done. The leaks are a top insurance cost.

Mike Henderson
08-04-2016, 2:39 PM
I've never understood why the water heaters get so much concern and the toilets get so little. Especially since toilet leaks can go unnoticed til the damage is done. The leaks are a top insurance cost.
They can both be a mess if you're on vacation. I always turn the water off to the house when I go on vacation.

My experience with toilets is that the hose that connects them to the supply breaks or leaks. Can create quite a mess, especially if it runs for days on end while you're gone.

Mike

Ken Fitzgerald
08-04-2016, 3:51 PM
The hoses to sinks and wash machines can do it too! When I redid the plumbing in our utility room, I put in a mechanical valve, 1 lever, shuts off both the hot and cold water to the wash machine.

A former coworker left the corporate world to become a missionary in Romania. He took his family there for 4 weeks prior to leaving the company. When he arrived home, he found a cold water supply hose to his kitchen sink had burst while he was away. He arrived back to find the bottom two levels of his home destroyed. He arrived back in early November. It was the middle of February before they were able to move back into his home. All the sheetrock, insulation, floors on the two bottom floors of this tri-level home had to be removed, and the house dehumidified. Then the remodeling could take place. The final insult was a $600+ water bill for that month.

Mel Fulks
08-04-2016, 5:05 PM
Yep,choosing to move to Romania was a good decision! But some don't get that choice and have to just clean it,fix it and move back in.

James Gunning
08-04-2016, 6:13 PM
I was an airline pilot and on a layover in Harrisburg. Sound asleep in a hotel at 11:30 at night and the phone in my room rings. My now ex-wife calling to tell me the garage is flooding. (It wasn't really flooding-she was a little dramatic at times) I talk her through turning off the house supply water, and the outlet from the tank, and tell her to go back to bed. The water heater had rusted through and there was a small leak (pretty much a pinhole) slowly leaking out on the garage floor. No drain pan, but no real worry about anything getting wet since the heater was on the upper step and the water was dribbling down to the lower and would eventually wind up outside. On arrival at home the next afternoon I went to a big box store and as luck would have it found the identical water heater in stock. I bought it, managed to get it home in the trunk of the car and in an hour or so, it was installed and the old one on the curb. This was the second similar call from her in two weeks. The first was her walking into a spare bedroom and finding the carpet soaked against a common wall with a bathroom. I talked her through getting the water off and then using our rug shampooer to suck up the water in the carpet. That one turned out to be a pin-holed copper water feed pipe to the toilet tank. Fixed that the next day when I got home. Eventually, more pinholes and a replacement with pex for the entire house, but that's another story.

The suggestion to turn the water off when you leave is solid advice. I was already doing that when both of these potential disasters happened with somebody home. A fellow pilot had his home destroyed when a washer hose burst when he was sound asleep at home. He woke up the next morning and put his feet into a couple inches of water in the bedroom. (ranch style slab house in FL-water in every room) Complete sheetrock and insulation replacement plus all flooring and furniture. Insurance company told me that is the most costly and frequent household claim they have.

I would do whatever it took to give peace of mind about it. I have a single lever shutoff on the washer hoses, which are braided metal and replaced every few years. The water tank is due for replacement since the current one has been there since 1998. Will likely get a tankless this time. We never leave for more than a few hours without turning off the water and tripping the water heater circuit breaker to shut off the power to it. I also installed an easy to operate 1/4 turn valve on the supply line where we can get to it quickly. (The old one was a gate valve that was hard to operate)

Having been a landlord years ago, I will testify that you cannot rely on the renters to do the proper thing if there is a leak. Some might, but more likely not. Many folks (renters and owners) don't even know to turn off the water, let alone do more than that. At a minimum, I would certainly install some kind of drain pan on the water heater and make sure the washer hoses are in good condition.