Panel Saw Recommendations for New Woodworker

[Patrick Cox]

Hello,
I am new to woodworking and am very interested in working with hand tools. I just registered for a bench building class at my local Woodcraft where we will build what looks to be a very nice and sturdy bench. So I am now planning out my hand tool purchases. And really at this point where I am having the most trouble deciding is around Panel Saws. Really the only new Panel saws I have found (other than just going to a big box store) are at Lie Nielsen and they are $225 each (Rip and Cross Cut.) And if that is the path I should take I don't mind doing so, but I also don't want to waste money if there are other good options. Now I have seen recommendations to buy a used saw and refurbish it but I don't know anything about doing that so I am thinking my best option is to buy new or to buy one that is already refurbished. So, any suggestions on buying new Panel Saws - one Rip Saw and one Cross Cut Saw will be much appreciated!

Thanks!
Pat

[steven c newman]

I seem to recall Disston made a few good ones, back in the day..
341783
This one was sold by a Hardware Supplier out of Cleveland, OH. There were a lot of 20" saws made by Disston, and Atkins. Keep your eyes open, and you can get one or both types of saws for less than ....$10. None of mine came from ebay, either. All came from yard sales.

BTW: the saw pictured was cutting dovetails.....

[Patrick Cox]

Could a saw like this easily be converted to rip?

"Removed eBay link."

[Nicholas Lawrence]

An option might be to pick up a good Disston or Atkins, and pay to have somebody sharpen it. You want to make sure the saw plate is not bent or kinked. It can be a little hit and miss over the Internet, but if you can buy them in person (not sure where you are or what options you may have) you can make sure they do not have any major problems.

If you are set on new, Woodcraft sells a line of saws (Pax?). I think they are about half of a LN, but as with most things you are paying less and getting less.

If you want a refurbished saw, you can post a WTB add here for the cost of a year membership ($6 I think) and I would imagine someone could help you out. Most of the guys doing a really nice job on refurbishing old ones are not going to be all that cheap though.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

They don't like you to post eBay links here, because they disappear over time, and then it is hard for people to follow the advice in the thread.

For a rip saw in the panel size, I would want something more in the 5-6 TPI range. That one is described as being 10tpi, which is kind of fine for general purpose ripping to my way of thinking. If you want a nice crosscut saw, that might work for you though.

One way to convert a cross-cut profile to a rip profile is just to file the existing teeth at a 90, as long as you don't need to change the TPI. That is pretty easy (heck, even I can do it). If you want to change a 10 point saw to a five point saw, that will be more involved.

[Reinis Kanders]

Most of the panel saws that you can buy new will most likely not come sharp enough, even Lie Nielsen ones. I have some Pax ones and they definitely were not sharp enough and had to be touched up. If anything I would recommend Irwing jack 880 20" saw, it is disposable saw, but very sharp and with reasonable saw set, you can get one on ebay for $10 and be set till you learn how to sharpen on some beater saws.

[Phil Mueller]

Hi Patrick, welcome to the Creek. Where are you located? Perhaps someone nearby can help with refurbishing/sharpening an old one. Frankly, to get started, there's nothing wrong with a big box Stanley or equivelant. They are multi-purpose and sharp. Only downside is when they are dull, you throw them away. I have a few for pressure treated wood, and the occassional tree trimming.

The other thing to consider is that unless you are working with very wide or very thick material, a decent crosscut backsaw will do the job. I have one from Lee Valley, and I do 95% of crosscuting with it. They are great saws, and a very good value.

[Paul Sidener]

Hi Patrick,
New saws are easier to find than some vintage saws. The shorter ones anyways, but they are out there. For vintage tools search look at Hyperkitten or Superior Tool Works. Send them an email and tell them what you are looking for and they might have what you are looking for. As for new, Lie Nielsen Wenzloff, sold by Lee Valley and Gramercy are all good choices. The Wenzloff will be the most difficult to get, but they are worth the effort. I really have to agree with Phil. You are probably better off starting off with an inexpensive panel saw, and investing in quality back saws. Look at it this way. panel saws make rough cuts, and back saws will make more fine joinery cuts.

[Patrick Cox]

Hi Patrick,
New saws are easier to find than some vintage saws. The shorter ones anyways, but they are out there. For vintage tools search look at Hyperkitten or Superior Tool Works. Send them an email and tell them what you are looking for and they might have what you are looking for. As for new, Lie Nielsen Wenzloff, sold by Lee Valley and Gramercy are all good choices. The Wenzloff will be the most difficult to get, but they are worth the effort. I really have to agree with Phil. You are probably better off starting off with an inexpensive panel saw, and investing in quality back saws. Look at it this way. panel saws make rough cuts, and back saws will make more fine joinery cuts.

Thanks for your reply. I emailed Bad Axe to see if they had any reconditioned panel saws but I will try your other suggestions as well. Regarding back saws, my plan is to start with two Lie Nielsen saws - a Tapered Carcus saw and a Tapered Tenon Saw. Does that sound like a good plan?

And then I believe I need two panel saws - a Rip and Cross cut. I just don't know how much benefit I get from buying the Nielsen saws vs spending a bit less since as you say these are more rough cuts. If they are worth buying I will do so but if I can save some money in this area I will. So still deciding.

Thanks again!

[Patrick Cox]

Hi Patrick, welcome to the Creek. Where are you located? Perhaps someone nearby can help with refurbishing/sharpening an old one. Frankly, to get started, there's nothing wrong with a big box Stanley or equivelant. They are multi-purpose and sharp. Only downside is when they are dull, you throw them away. I have a few for pressure treated wood, and the occassional tree trimming.

The other thing to consider is that unless you are working with very wide or very thick material, a decent crosscut backsaw will do the job. I have one from Lee Valley, and I do 95% of crosscuting with it. They are great saws, and a very good value.

Thanks Phil. I am in Central Kentucky. I do plan to purchase a couple of good back saws, I just haven't worked out my panel saws. And really, I have learned over the years that normally when you buy quality things, you only cry once. :) So I want to buy something that is of good quality and will last, but I also want to be reasonable.

Thanks again!

[Curt Putnam]

Being new means you don't know what you will like. I would consider starting with one of the Stanley saws (full size) that I occasionally see at the BORGs. When it gets too dull you chuck it and buy what you now need or just plane want. For example, I just plain lust after Ron Bontz's half back saws. A new Stanley will cut reasonably well until you know what you want. Then go vintage or new according to your heart.

[Patrick Cox]

What about this saw as a starter panel saw that gets me going for now?...

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=41758&cat=1,42884,42924&ap=1

[Phil Mueller]

Can't argue with the cry once thinking! The LN saws are a joy to use...problem is, if the cut isn't good, you can't blame the saw :eek:

With the LN carcass saw, you can probably do most crosscuts...I believe it's 14" long and cutting depth of 2 1/4". Should handle most stock and at 14ppi will give you a nice clean cut. But, I know what it's like to want a few panel saws.

Along with Paul's suggestions, check out vintagesaws.com. I've purchased from them and the saws are excellent.
If you go the vintage route, look through the distonianinstitute site...lots of great info. By the way, most define a "panel saw" as less than 24", and longer saws as "hand saws". Some refer to "panel saws" as only crosscut saws 24" or less.

If you're ever in SE Michigan and want to try a few saws for fun, don't hesitate to PM me.

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Patrick,
New saws are easier to find than some vintage saws. The shorter ones anyways, but they are out there. For vintage tools search look at Hyperkitten or Superior Tool Works. Send them an email and tell them what you are looking for and they might have what you are looking for. As for new, Lie Nielsen Wenzloff, sold by Lee Valley and Gramercy are all good choices. The Wenzloff will be the most difficult to get, but they are worth the effort. I really have to agree with Phil. You are probably better off starting off with an inexpensive panel saw, and investing in quality back saws. Look at it this way. panel saws make rough cuts, and back saws will make more fine joinery cuts.

In addition to the sources Paul cites you should also give VintageSaws.com a go.

As semi-related context, the "modern Western saw movement" was kick-started by Independence Tool, which was later bought by Lie-Nielsen and became L-N's saw business. The principals of Independence Tool were Pete Taran, who now runs VintageSaws.com, and Patrick Leach, who now runs Superior Tool Works. Both are highly reputable sources for used saws.

[Paul Sidener]

Thanks for your reply. I emailed Bad Axe to see if they had any reconditioned panel saws but I will try your other suggestions as well. Regarding back saws, my plan is to start with two Lie Nielsen saws - a Tapered Carcus saw and a Tapered Tenon Saw. Does that sound like a good plan?

And then I believe I need two panel saws - a Rip and Cross cut. I just don't know how much benefit I get from buying the Nielsen saws vs spending a bit less since as you say these are more rough cuts. If they are worth buying I will do so but if I can save some money in this area I will. So still deciding.

Thanks again!

The Lie Nielsen back saws are very good, I have both the tapered saws you mentioned. My only complaint would be with the tenon saw could be a little taller. That has only caused a problem once for me, so it isn't a deal breaker for me. It would depend on the work you are planning on doing.

For panel saws, vintage usually doesn't mean less expensive. Especially if it has been "restored". I have 2 vintage 26" Disston saws. A D-12 rip saw and a D-15 Victory x-cut saw. Also 2 new 20" Wenzloff saws, 1 rip and 1 x-cut. I only mention that because, some people say the steel in the vintage saws is better. I can't tell if it is or not, or if one stays sharper longer then the other. I can say that the majority of the time I use the shorter saws, and they fit in my tool chest. When they are sharp, they all cut good. The longer saws probably cut a little faster, because the stroke is a little longer. All that said the Lie Nielsen saw is a good saw too, I have used them. What ever you decide, it will be right for you.

Another place to check is The Saw Wright. Send Matt an email too. http://www.thesawwright.com

[Patrick Cox]

In addition to the sources Paul cites you should also give VintageSaws.com a go.

As semi-related context, the "modern Western saw movement" was kick-started by Independence Tool, which was later bought by Lie-Nielsen and became L-N's saw business. The principals of Independence Tool were Pete Taran, who now runs VintageSaws.com, and Patrick Leach, who now runs Superior Tool Works. Both are highly reputable sources for used saws.

Very interesting. Thanks for the info.

[Phil Mueller]

I don't have experience with that saw, but seems similar to the saws available at the BORG, but a bit longer (which is good). LV is an excellent company with great products...I don't think they would carry it if wasn't a decent user.

[Nick Stokes]

Depends if you are fully hand tools, or supplementing your tablesaw/bandsaw.

If this hand saw is your only way to Rip, you better get a big 26" 5tpi saw, and then later you'll probably get a smaller one in the 20", 10tpi range for work at the bench. For cross cuts, you could probably get by with 1 crosscut panel saw, 10tpi or so.

I have had both the Lie Nielsen panel saws. They are very thin kerf. A beginner would struggle to not kink them; and they're short... so if you're trying to work a long rip, you'll pull the saw out too far and kink it that way... At least, that was my experience. I'm sure most everyone else is more talented than me.

I eventually sold them and got a few $10 ebay saws sent my way. I hit em with a file and they work fine. I haven't missed the LN, except that they were beautiful. I'm gonna plane those sawn surfaces before any joinery anyway. Bishop, Atkins, Jennings, Disston; I have had them all, I can't tell a difference; they work fine.

Before you buy, watch the recent video's on youtube that Paul Sellers has put out. He's using a hardware store "Spear and Jackson" and shows that it cuts fine.

Dont stress over it, IMO there are better ways to spend your hand tool budget that have more of an impact.

[Robert Engel]

I definitely agree on quality tools, but starting out I wouldn't spend $500 on two panel saws.
A better option is an old Disston in good condition + saw file + tooth set + saw vise ( you can build one).

On a vacation a couple years ago, I picked up two old Disstons, 4TPI and 8TPI for less than $40 total. Cleaned them up, floated, sharpened and reset they work great.

Careful of Ebay.

[Patrick Cox]

Depends if you are fully hand tools, or supplementing your tablesaw/bandsaw.

If this hand saw is your only way to Rip, you better get a big 26" 5tpi saw, and then later you'll probably get a smaller one in the 20", 10tpi range for work at the bench. For cross cuts, you could probably get by with 1 crosscut panel saw, 10tpi or so.

I have had both the Lie Nielsen panel saws. They are very thin kerf. A beginner would struggle to not kink them; and they're short... so if you're trying to work a long rip, you'll pull the saw out too far and kink it that way... At least, that was my experience. I'm sure most everyone else is more talented than me.

I eventually sold them and got a few $10 ebay saws sent my way. I hit em with a file and they work fine. I haven't missed the LN, except that they were beautiful. I'm gonna plane those sawn surfaces before any joinery anyway. Bishop, Atkins, Jennings, Disston; I have had them all, I can't tell a difference; they work fine.

Before you buy, watch the recent video's on youtube that Paul Sellers has put out. He's using a hardware store "Spear and Jackson" and shows that it cuts fine.

Dont stress over it, IMO there are better ways to spend your hand tool budget that have more of an impact.

Great comments, thanks! I don't own a table saw and currently have no plans to do so. Let me ask you this. Why do you recommend the 26" saw for rip cuts? Starting out I plan to build a tool chest, saw benches, a bench for our front porch...that kind of thing.

Thanks again!

[Phil Mueller]

I won't speak for Patrick, but I believe his point is that a longer saw and fewer tpi will just cut faster (less strokes). The fewer tpi does result in a rougher cut. It's a bit of a trade off.

In my opinion, the shorter LV carpenter or LN saw at 7 tpi will cut fast enough and have a reasonably smoother cut...it's just going to take more strokes to make the cut (I don't know, never tested it...but a 26" 5 tpi saw vs a 20" 7 tpi saw on a 36" long board...maybe a minute more?). For what you plan to build - and if you're not a particularely impatient soul - you should be fine with the shorter length.

I will tell you this...and it seems ridiculous...but cutting to a straight line is a lot harder than it sounds. Particularely longer rip cuts. Once you get the cut started (and assuming it's started square and against the line), the quality of the saw (straight blade, set perfectly) and your sawing skill, will come into play as to whether you can easily stay on the line or not. You can "guide" a saw somewhat, but too much and it will bind. Once the saw cut starts drifting left of right, it's tough to correct (if not impossible).

Whatever you choose to get, practice with it. There are lots of videos (and posts here) regarding sawing techniques.

[Patrick Chase]

Great comments, thanks! I don't own a table saw and currently have no plans to do so. Let me ask you this. Why do you recommend the 26" saw for rip cuts? Starting out I plan to build a tool chest, saw benches, a bench for our front porch...that kind of thing.

Thanks again!

The big advantage to a 26" saw is that it allows people with average-sized arms to take full strokes, which is more efficient (less total time/effort to execute any given task).

[Patrick Chase]

One big question that underlies this whole discussion is: Can you sharpen your own saws and/or are you willing to make a significant time investment to learn?

If not then you probably want a saw with impulse-hardened teeth, like the LV "Professional" saw. Such saws can't realistically be sharpened, but they'll stay sharp quite a while.

If you can sharpen then both the vintage and "high end" routes are options. The high end saws come pre-sharpened and the vintage saws can be bought that way for a price, but sharpenable saws are made of softer steel and won't last anywhere near as long as hardened ones before they need resharpening.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Great comments, thanks! I don't own a table saw and currently have no plans to do so. Let me ask you this. Why do you recommend the 26" saw for rip cuts? Starting out I plan to build a tool chest, saw benches, a bench for our front porch...that kind of thing.

Thanks again!

I have a big Disston rip saw (with the thumb hole). I also have a shorter panel saw that I refiled to a rip profile. Both work well. If you have a panel sized saw available that is in good shape and cheap, I would not pass it up just to get a larger one.

One of the other comments talks about problems sawing straight. A proper saw bench helped me with that a lot, it allows me to line up the cut, arm, saw, and eye.

The other thing is to watch and see if the saw is consistently drifting to one side as opposed to the other. If it is random, I would guess it is more a technique thing, and patience and practice will help with that. If it is consistently to one side or the other, (and I am talking about a used type saw here, I would not imagine you will have this problem with a new LN), it may be because the set is a little bit more aggressive on one side than the other.

To fix that you can take a piece of sandpaper or the edge of a sharpening stone, and "stone" the side it is drifting to. One or two light strokes along the toothline can make a big difference. Go slow, take light strokes, and test frequently. It is easy to overdo it. My rip saws track well enough for my purposes. I can accurately take 1/4" off of a six foot board.

Lost Art Press published a (free) saw bench design that has worked well for me. If you search for Lost Art Press and Sawbench you should find the PDF easily.

[Patrick Cox]

One big question that underlies this whole discussion is: Can you sharpen your own saws and/or are you willing to make a significant time investment to learn?

If not then you probably want a saw with impulse-hardened teeth, like the LV "Professional" saw. Such saws can't realistically be sharpened, but they'll stay sharp quite a while.

If you can sharpen then both the vintage and "high end" routes are options. The high end saws come pre-sharpened and the vintage saws can be bought that way for a price, but sharpenable saws are made of softer steel and won't last anywhere near as long as hardened ones before they need resharpening.

Hi,
I was thinking that saw sharpening was not that difficult but maybe I am wrong. But do you have a link to the "LV Professional Saw" you are referring to? Thanks.

[Patrick Cox]

Hi all,
Well, I ended up connecting with Pete over at Vintagesaws.com and he was very helpful. And after a lot of questions I feel like I ended up with two good vintage saws to start my hand tool woodworking journey. I bought a 26" Disston D8 5 1/2 point rip saw and a 24" D7 8 pt cross cut saw. Looking forward to trying them out!

And thanks again to everyone here! Lots of great suggestions!

Pat

[Glen Canaday]

Just as a reminder to the OP, now that you have two saws you can work with, you can take your time to stop at yard and estates sales nearby to peruse the pickings. I have way more hand saws than I will ever need, and it is rare that I spend more than $2 on them. I don't mean terrible modern saws, either - I have sourced scads of century-old Disston and Atkins and the like this way. With a little refurbishing they'll serve for another 100 years.

Backsaws are a different story...way more carpenters up here then furniture makers by quite a stretch. I had to pay ebay for mine. If there were scores of furniture people in your area 100 years ago, you'll have a different story!