Veneer

[Ian Funk]

I'm a furniture maker that is making a furniture line that requires a wood that is stable and can handle the seasonal changes. Does anyone here cut their own veneer and apply it to a substrate? I know you can go online and buy veneer but i'm interested in making my own since my relative has a sawmill and we have a pretty nice growing selection of lumber. The bandsaw i'm currently using is an SCMI SC600, I also have a small widebelt sander and enough room in my shop for a vaccum pump set up. I've used high grade plywood from my local cabinet supply, not impressed with the look or quality. I'm looking to make a thicker more durable veneer than ones currently used in the industry. The whole reason i want to saw my own is because often times veneer is a taboo word. I want to be able to tell my customers that my veneer is handmade and how it better then stuff out on the market. I'm not doing this for cost effectiveness, i'm doing it because i need a wood that is stable, not something that is unpredictable. Any information and tips would be great thanks.

[Jamie Buxton]

Shop-sawn veneer is a solution used by many fine furniture makers. You get to make it the thickness you want. And in many species (e.g. walnut) sawn veneer looks like solid lumber, whereas commercial sliced veneer does not. The downside is that making your own is more expensive than using commercial sliced veneer.

[John TenEyck]

I use mostly hardwoods native to where I live in WNY. I prefer shop sawn veneer over commercial stuff. I saw/sand veneer to 1/16" finished thickness. It handles like solid wood which is an advantage for me. I vacuum laminate it onto Baltic birch plywood or MDF using Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue, and the resultant panels look like real wood but are very stable.

If you put a power feeder on your bandsaw you can greatly simplify sawing consistent veneer. I don't have a power feeder on my BS, but I would if I needed to be really efficient at it.

John

[jerry cousins]

i've been using shop sawn veneers for many years on furniture - the saw is a mm16 with a 1" carbide blade (resaw king) so the cut is pretty smooth -
using the double bevel cutting method i also do marquetry and resaw the veneers to 5/64. i use a vacuum press and unibond to glue it down to either baltic birch or mdf - using bags so when i'm not gluing they can hang on the wall be out of the way.
i agree with john that a power feeder would be great but am a 1 person shop and just don't need that kind of production.
jerry

[Mike Henderson]

A problem with shop sawn veneer is that the two faces don't match exactly. Commercial veneer is sliced, not sawn, so the two faces are exact matches. This only affects you when you're doing certain designs in veneer.

But commercial veneer is very good. The veneer people get the best logs so the figure and pattern is usually much better than you can get from logs available to you. Thicker veneer has certain advantages - it can be sanded a lot more than the thin commercial stuff.

There's nothing wrong with veneer in furniture, if you use a good substrate, good glue, and good practices. It opens up design opportunities that you couldn't do with solid wood.

Mike

[Mark Wooden]

Veneer shouldn't be considered taboo; it's been in use for centuries. The idea that it was "cheap" came about when the first production furniture appeared in the late 19th and early 20th century with the Industrial revolution.
Anyway, sawing your own veneer from trees available has its appeal, but you do have to deal with getting it sawn to usable size, stacked, stickered, turned over and restacked & stickered etc. until dried to a usable MC, usually over a year without a kiln. Then you have to resaw it and if you're book matching, you may not get the match you want as Mike points out. This equates to a lot of time- can your product price bear it?
Commercial veneer is available in thicker sizes and you can probably get a flitch sliced to spec., I'd call around to various veneer suppliers to see what they have to offer.
But, you should saw a bit of your own material for the experience.I say go for it.

[David Kumm]

Here is the vac pump I made kind of following the Joewoodworkers site. I also use it when a cabinet side is showing rather than using what comes with plywood. Dave341757341758

[Mike Ontko]

My project was just a one-off and pretty small potatoes compared to what you want to do, but since you're asking I'm guessing it can't hurt to share. I made a mid-century modern type of bookcase (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/album.php?albumid=865), based on IKEA's Valje model. Instead of particle board, however, I used 3/4" birch ply as a substrate and then covered parts of it with a Douglas fir veneer that I created by resawing from 4/4 and then planing down to 3/32" using an elevated feed deck in my DW735. I don't have a vacuum system so I opted to go with contact cement, applying the veneer like a laminate but using a veneer roller instead of a j-roller so I could get more pressure. Because of the stability of the plywood substrate I'm not too worried about cracks in the veneer caused by differences in expansion/contraction rates between the fir and birch ply. It's only been about 4-5 months since this piece has been in-use, and no signs of cracks or splits yet.

[Chris Padilla]

Have a gander through a project (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396-Tansu) I did several years ago sawing my own veneer.

In my experience, "veneer" is wood that is <=1/16" HOWEVER, even wood at 1/16" can still move things. I don't recall if I mentioned it in the above thread but I had two 5/8" pieces of MDF about 16" x 36" that I sandwiched together. Next, I glued some of my shop-sawn 1/16" walnut veneer to one-side only and the next day, the walnut had pulled the flat MDF sandwich out about an 1/8" bow: from | to (. I was completely shocked. So the rule is to always balance the veneer on your substrate. Put the show stuff on the good side and the so-so stuff on the other side. As long as they are the same thickness, your substrate should stay flat.

Now I'm going to guess that thinner commercial veneer probably wouldn't have pulled the MDF sandwich out of flat. Just something to keep in mind.

[Mark Wooden]

Have a gander through a project (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396-Tansu) I did several years ago sawing my own veneer.

In my experience, "veneer" is wood that is <=1/16" HOWEVER, even wood at 1/16" can still move things. I don't recall if I mentioned it in the above thread but I had two 5/8" pieces of MDF about 16" x 36" that I sandwiched together. Next, I glued some of my shop-sawn 1/16" walnut veneer to one-side only and the next day, the walnut had pulled the flat MDF sandwich out about an 1/8" bow: from | to (. I was completely shocked. So the rule is to always balance the veneer on your substrate. Put the show stuff on the good side and the so-so stuff on the other side. As long as they are the same thickness, your substrate should stay flat.

Now I'm going to guess that thinner commercial veneer probably wouldn't have pulled the MDF sandwich out of flat. Just something to keep in mind.

Oh yes, there is that part of it too- always balance both sides of the lay-up. The general recommendation is with the same material at the same thickness. More sawing.....
Since the subject of not being happy with the veneers avaliable on sheet stock, it bears pointing out that most of the veneer leaves you buy are usually between 1/40" to 1/50"- far thicker than what you get on sheet stock, which has been sanded pretty thin.
Since I buy my most of my veneer, I will also buy lower cost " balance" leaves from my supplier. No troubles so far.

[Rick Alexander]

Is air dried veneer dry enough or does it need to be kiln dried before applying to a substrate. I'm thinking it doesn't - the glue I would assume would add moisture to the veneer as well.

[Brad Shipton]

Certainly wood has quite a few species in up to 1/16" thick. I would make sure making your own veneers is the cost effective for a business application where I assume you are tracking your time. Keep in mind that veneer companies only take the very best logs to make veneers and they a premium for those logs. The logs they buy are not even an option for most sawmills because those who harvest them know where to go to get the most money. The thicker veneers they sell tend not to have the nice figure of the thinner options. If they used the premium logs to make thick veneers I doubt anyone would buy them due to the cost of the veneer. Yield is a paramount concern for them.

Many real wood veneers are not sanded. They use razor sharp blades that cut the wood exactly like you get it. Here is a rather lengthy video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP6R0qBmjTI

I agree with Chris on the thickness aspect. Some woods you can get away with a little thicker, but I have veneered with some Cumaru, and it has been a beast until I got the thickness down to less than 1/16".

Anyone that argues about veneers not being used in fine furniture should look at some of Craig Thibodeau's work on the woodweb. If any of those were made with only real wood I doubt anyone but Dennis Zongker's billionaire clients could afford them.

I see a benefit to thicker veneers for doors, and other items that are subject to more abuse, but for a lot of projects it is not always necessary. I tried sanding thru a 1/42" veneer with a 5" orbital sander flat on the veneer like suggested in a veneer book I read years ago, and I gave up after 5min or so. Now if you rotate your sander 45deg and hit an edge like one might do to try to fix a problem, you can go thru in very short order. With a vacuum press, uniform substrate, quality veneer, and tight veneer joints, sanding should primarily be to get the stock ready for the finish.

If you simply enjoy the process and do not track your time, then I admit it is relaxing to cut your own veneers. I have a power feeder and that does make it easier.

[Kevin Jenness]

Chris,

Contrary to your supposition, an unbalanced panel with sliced veneer will behave the same way as one with thicker material, though perhaps less drastically.

Ian,

The veneer mills pay a serious premium for the best logs To maximize ther ROI they slice the baloney as thin as their equipment will let them, typically 1/42" in the US. I have read that some Japanese mills go as thin as 1/50". (Standard veneer thickness at one time was 1/28".) Starting at .022-.023" means that the leaves must be sliced very cleanly to allow for sanding to a smooth surface, and anyone who has done considerable veneering knows that some flitches have enough tearout that achieving that result can leave a paper thin layer. In fact, paperback veneer typically comes through with the wood thickness at .010", on a .010" backing. So there is a real argument to be made for shop-sawn veneer in that it can be re-sanded and re-finished with more confidence, plus it can be tooled for texture (stamping, light relief carving) while still retaining the stability of veneer. The drawbacks are much increased labor costs and pattern shift from leaf to leaf.

[Ian Funk]

Hey thanks for all the responses everyone! I think i'm going to try and see how shop-sawn veneer goes. It's not that the quality of commercial veneers are bad, I just find some of them, not all, really bland and without character. I like the idea of have a thicker veneer, maybe a little under 1/16 of an inch. I'll try it out, track my time and cost, and see how it goes, thanks everyone

[Tony Leonard]

341784

Nope, they are not all bland! One issue is that it is not easy to find the solid form of the wood you might be interested in.

Tony

[Ian Funk]

Definitely not all bland! I'm am just really going for a solid wood panel look. Not worried about book matching or anything, just need something that is more stable and looks good.

[David Davies]

Dave K...what pump did you use for you vacuum and where did you source the tank?
Thanks,
Dave

[John TenEyck]

With your requirements you should be very happy with shop sawn veneer. Your panels will be a lot nicer to work with than commercial plywood. Just be sure to start with well dried stock at EMC with your shop. I have the least problems by face jointing one face, planing the other face parallel, jointing one edge square, and then ripping the other edge parallel before sawing any veneer. Then I take a slice off one face, plane that face smooth again, take a slice off the opposite face, and repeat. That keeps the board balanced if there is any moisture difference between the faces and center.

John

[David Kumm]

I bought a new old stock Thomas 2750 wobble piston pump on CL or Ebay ( forgot which ) for $220 and the tank was from Amazon but mainly 5 gal with two ports. I think about $80. Other stuff came from joewoodworker. My pump is 240v which is likely why it was a better deal. The 2750 has the most capacity of the Thomas pumps, in the 6-7 cfm range. Dave

[Mike Henderson]

Just an opinion: A vacuum pump with 2 to 3 CFM should be big enough for most applications. The advantage of a high CFM pump is to get the bag pulled down quickly, but this is only an advantage in certain situations - where you have an odd shaped piece in the bag and there's lots of empty space. For most flat panels, a 2 CFM pump gets the panel in press pretty quickly. And once the bag is pulled down, you don't need much CFM - just enough to make up for the leaks. With a good condition commercial bag, that's really small.

It's been a long time since I bought mine, but Joe Woodworker used to have rebuilt vacuum pumps in the 2 or so CFM range for under $200, and 115V. The one I have has held up fine for a good many years now.

Mike

[Also, you can make a vacuum reservoir from a couple of pieces of big Schedule 40 PVC. Joe W has plans on his site for how to do it. Of course, if you have access to a cheap tank of some kind which will safely withstand the vacuum, you can use that.]

[John Sincerbeaux]

I have re-read the OP's initial post a few times. I think the logic is reversed? In furniture making, guys use a stable substrate to support the veneer such as a table top or decorative door panels where any movement can destroy the veneer. But, I don't get where veneer would be used to "stabilize" furniture?

[Frank Drew]

I think he meant that the veneered laminated panel would be more stable than a panel made of solid, not that the veneer alone would make the substrate stable. I think he's planning to start with a stable core, either multi-ply or mdf.

[Ian Funk]

Frank is correct I'm gluing my shop-sawn veneer to a substrate, most likely multi-ply for its strength. Thanks for the input everyone ill be sure to let you know how it goes once I get my vacuum pump up and running.

[Ian Funk]

Also what are some good bandsaw blades to resaw veneer with?

[Kevin Jenness]

That's a subject of its own, and you will find numerous threads here on the subject. I have had fairly good results on my old Crescent 36" with a 1" wide Lenox Classic 2/3 pitch bimetal blade. For a smoother cut and far greater longevity at a much higher price a carbide tipped blade like the Lenox Woodmaster CT, Lenox Trimaster or Laguna Resaw King is an option. Spectrum Supply has good pricing on the Lenox line.

[Ian Funk]

I think I'm going to go with the lenox woodmaster CT, i did search around on the forums. Just didn't hear much about using the Woodmaster CT for use in cutting veneer. That being said I figure I should go with the quality blade first. I don't mind spending extra on something I know will save me money in the long run. Thanks for the input kevin.

[Mike Henderson]

How big is the kerf on those carbide bandsaw blades?

Mike

[Ian Funk]

The woodmaster CT is 0.051", a little bigger than I want but I hear all the smaller kerf blades just dull very fast. Although i still might try one out.

[Kevin Jenness]

About 1/16". Exact figures for the Lenox blades at spectrumsupply.com

[Chris Padilla]

I seem to be the contrarian on the Woodmaster CT. I did NOT like it at all so it hangs on my wall for the past 10 years gathering dust. I got much better cuts with the Trimaster or the Diemaster2 bimetal (6 tpi, hook style) blade from Lenox.

Trimaster is 1/16" (0.625) and I think the Diemaster2 is around 0.35". I really like the bimetal blade...cheap and it has cut extremely well for me on my MM20 band saw.

[David Kumm]

The CT 1.3 will excel at wide resawing due to fewer teeth in the cut but the Trimaster 2/3 varitooth is the gold standard. More important is proper tension. The Lenox blades run best in the 25000+ range. Dave