Air conditioning unit and the Cost of freon?

[dennis thompson]

My air conditioning wasn't working very well, it could only get the first floor down to 77 degrees. The air conditioning guy came and said that it was frozen. It seems because of the low freon it just kept running and that caused it to freeze up. So he shut of the cooling and is just running the fan over the weeked to unfreeze it and will come back on Monday to add the freon. So my questions are:
-the freon will cost $185 for the first pound and $123 for each pound thereafter, there is no way to tell how quickly the freon will leak out again, a week? A month? A year? It could take up to 10 pounds so we could easily be talking upwards of $1,000.
The air conditioning unit is 10 years old, should I just replace the unit or add the freon? Does that seem like a reasonable price for the freon?
I am getting an estimate to replace the unit on Monday and I'm sure it won't be cheap but it will be a more efficient unit.
Any thoughts on which brands are the best?
Anyone else in New Jersey or the northeast replaced a central air conditioning unit lately, cost?
thanks

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi Dennis.
Here's my layman understanding of things. I'm sure more knowlegable guys will chime in, if needed.

There are two types of freon and the older type is no longer made, so it's expensive. Neighbor was paying upwards of $90/pound. I haven't heard of people paying $185, but that may be a supply/demand thing in your area. I don't know if the old type freon is what your 10 year old unit uses or not. I don't recall when they changed to the newer type.

As I understand it, buying a new unit may or may not fix the leak. For example, some people have a type of AC that is two separate units - one outside and one inside. In such a system, you could be leaking inside or outside. If you only replace the outside unit and the leak is in the inside, it will eventually leak out again. So, if possible, they need to try to find that leak. That will cost a few hundred more dollars.

Another approach is to fill it up and watch it a while to see how fast it leaks out. My neighbor used to have the guy come once a year and put in a pound. He got another 3 years out of it that way. But again, that may not work for you.

Replacing the entire system (inside and outside parts) can give you sticker shock, depending on the brand you buy and how efficient it is. Again, the neighbor bought some high end unit. He claims he's seen a 25% reduction in his electric bill because it's so good compared to the ancient one he replaced.

Good luck,
Fred

[Michael Dye]

R22 has gotten very expensive. Here in OKC, a 30 pound jug will set a contractor back over $500. And that's wholesale pricing, nothing you can get. That being said, look at finding the leak. I have seen something as simple as a loose schrader valve, and as bad as a dog using the condenser unit as a bathroom, creating a corrosion problem that just destroys the condenser coil. If you are lucky enough to have the loose schrader valve, have your contractor replace the R22 with R407c. It is a drop-in refrigerant and is much cheaper.

If replacement is your only option, look at Amana. They have the best warranty and, in my opinion, are the best value. Good luck.

[George Bokros]

I recommend finding the leak. if it is the evaporator, the condenser or the compressor that is leaking replace the entire system, more cost effective. A new complete unit will be more efficient for sure and pay for itself in the long run. I would never add refrigerant without finding out where it is leaking. IMHO that is like throwing away money.

I put in a new Trane HVAC in 2012 not cheap but has performed well for four years. My old HVAC system was 13 yrs old at the time and the igniter for the heat was not shutting off after the burner was lit and the repair was estimate to be $800+ so I decided not to put that much in a 13 yr old system when a more efficient system would pay off in the long run.

[Robert Engel]

You have to find the leak first.

Unfortunately that means filling with freon.

It was one reason I replaced a unit.

I have another unit in a commercial building that takes 8 lbs I'll replace it if it ever starts leaking.

[Stan Calow]

This is why HVAC is the only thing for which I will buy extended service warranties. Without it, as soon as there is a leak the repairmen will want to replace the whole thing rather than find and fix the leak.

[Mike Henderson]

Wow, I had no idea R-22 was that expensive. Many years ago, I bought a 30# bottle so that I could service my own AC. Don't remember what I paid but it wasn't much. It's still half full.

In your situation, I might change out the unit and get one with a higher SEER and new style refrigerant. You probably have a 10 to 13 SEER unit. A 16 to 18 SEER unit will save you money on your electricity.

Mike

[Jon Nuckles]

Cost considerations aside, the reason the R22 is being phased out is that it contributes to depletion of the ozone layer and, to a much larger extent, contributes to global warming. Seems irresponsible to add it to a system you suspect is leaking.

[David T gray]

Cost considerations aside, the reason the R22 is being phased out is that it contributes to depletion of the ozone layer and, to a much larger extent, contributes to global warming. Seems irresponsible to add it to a system you suspect is leaking.

the patent ran out so lobbyest lobbyed to have it phased out b/c of global warming non sense , which dive the price up But a savior steps in and develops a new product to replace r22 but the new product is still 2-4 times more expensive then r22 was before it was phased out but still half as expensive as the new phased out r22 every one rejoices as capitalism has prevailed and once again screwed the public. i have a house on the beach in mexico that had a bad ac last year had a guy come out costs me $35 to get it recharged another 100 to fix the leak i asked him the price of r22 he paid 55$ for 30lb. another fun one. oil prices go look at what year oil speculation became legal and find a graph of oil prices quite the correlation.

[Matt Meiser]

Our R22 condenser was damaged beyond repair by a hail storm last year. Replacement with another R22 unit and recharge was about $2400 which is what the insurance authorized. We paid another $800 out of pocket and got a new A-coil, lineset and condenser with the new refrigerant. Its also something like 30% more efficient. I think we have a 3 ton system but I'd have to check to be sure.

[Mike Henderson]

the patent ran out so lobbyest lobbyed to have it phased out b/c of global warming non sense , which dive the price up But a savior steps in and develops a new product to replace r22 but the new product is still 2-4 times more expensive then r22 was before it was phased out but still half as expensive as the new phased out r22 every one rejoices as capitalism has prevailed and once again screwed the public. i have a house on the beach in mexico that had a bad ac last year had a guy come out costs me $35 to get it recharged another 100 to fix the leak i asked him the price of r22 he paid 55$ for 30lb. another fun one. oil prices go look at what year oil speculation became legal and find a graph of oil prices quite the correlation.
Any patents on Freon (a brand name) type refrigerants ran out a LONG time ago. See here (http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.htm)for a discussion.

The US banned certain refrigerants (first I knew of was R-12, now R-22) because of their effect on the ozone layer. Not all countries have banned those refrigerants, and some who have banned them do not enforce the ban. Last time I looked, China was still making both R-12 and R-22 and people were trying to sneak it into the US by declaring it as something else - because of the tremendous markup. Your experience in Mexico, I suspect, may be because Mexico has not banned those refrigerants or does not enforce the ban. If they weren't banned in the US, they'd be pretty cheap here, also.

Mike

[George Bokros]

You have to find the leak first.

Unfortunately that means filling with freon.

It was one reason I replaced a unit.

I have another unit in a commercial building that takes 8 lbs I'll replace it if it ever starts leaking.


I don't believe they fill the unit with refrigerant to find the leak.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't believe they fill the unit with refrigerant to find the leak.
I'm going from really old memory here, but I believe the AC repair people have very sensitive freon detectors that can detect very small leaks.

Mike

[Mark Blatter]

Every time I have had a leak in my car A/C, they will it with coolant, plus a dye so they can find the leak. Could be different with a house A/C unit, but I suspect not.

[Bob Bouis]

Finding and repairing leaks is just about the least profitable thing the A/C guys do, so none of them want to do it. They'd much rather sell you freon at ten times what they paid for it, because you'll need it again in a year (or a new unit with a 750% markup for the six man hours it takes to install it).

It's borderline criminal, if you ask me. But what're you going to do?

ETA: maybe I'm jaded because last time I was in this situation, the guy literally tried to put his thumb on the scale while selling me freon.

[Brian Elfert]

Every time I have had a leak in my car A/C, they will it with coolant, plus a dye so they can find the leak. Could be different with a house A/C unit, but I suspect not.

Cars have used R134A refrigerant since 1994 or 1995. R134A is pretty cheap at $70 for 30 pounds.

[Scott T Smith]

As others have stated, the price of R22 is very high because the EPA wants it phased out. The cost driver is the amount of federal tax per pound on the R22, not the manufacturers marking it up. The tax has been scaling up for a number of years.

Freon leaks can be detected by multiple methods, including using a "sniffer" leak detector, a dye leak detector, or high pressure nitrogen coupled with old fashioned soap bubbles. Dye is usually the quickest option, but it requires for the system to be recharged with R22 in order to detect the leak. However, once the leak is detected the R22 can be recovered from the system, the repair made, and then the original R22 reinstalled along with whatever additional freon is required.

The law prohibits recycling R22 from one system and installing it into a different system; presumably so that the Fed's don't lose the tax revenue.

[Jerome Stanek]

My air conditioning wasn't working very well, it could only get the first floor down to 77 degrees. The air conditioning guy came and said that it was frozen. It seems because of the low freon it just kept running and that caused it to freeze up. So he shut of the cooling and is just running the fan over the weeked to unfreeze it and will come back on Monday to add the freon. So my questions are:
-the freon will cost $185 for the first pound and $123 for each pound thereafter, there is no way to tell how quickly the freon will leak out again, a week? A month? A year? It could take up to 10 pounds so we could easily be talking upwards of $1,000.
The air conditioning unit is 10 years old, should I just replace the unit or add the freon? Does that seem like a reasonable price for the freon?
I am getting an estimate to replace the unit on Monday and I'm sure it won't be cheap but it will be a more efficient unit.
Any thoughts on which brands are the best?
Anyone else in New Jersey or the northeast replaced a central air conditioning unit lately, cost?
thanks

If it was frozen up then there is freon in it. It may be just a little low. Mine was just a pound low and that fixed it. It may have been low for some time now and not leaking

[Brian Elfert]

The law prohibits recycling R22 from one system and installing it into a different system; presumably so that the Fed's don't lose the tax revenue.

How does this make any sense? I believe HVAC techs are required to collect refrigerant instead of just venting it. What are they supposed to do with recovered refrigerant if they can't use it in another unit?

[Stan Calow]

How does this make any sense? I believe HVAC techs are required to collect refrigerant instead of just venting it. What are they supposed to do with recovered refrigerant if they can't use it in another unit?
I looked at EPA website. Yes it can be reused and resold, but it has to be done by someone certified to recycle it safely.

[Bruce Wrenn]

If your unit is low, then there is a leak somewhere. There are products that can be added to freon to stop leaks, but they aren't cheap either. The tax was designed for virgin R-22, so as to encourage the recycling of existing freon. I can remember sweep charging systems. You took schrader valve out of high side, and charged thru low till you had a steady stream of R-22. Replace valve and charge to specs. Living with a 36 year old Carrier HP right now, which has a micron leak in evaporator coil. We know it's in the evaporator coil as it only loses freon during heating season. Too small for a "sniffer" to read, plus it's an all aluminum coil.

[Scott T Smith]

How does this make any sense? I believe HVAC techs are required to collect refrigerant instead of just venting it. What are they supposed to do with recovered refrigerant if they can't use it in another unit?

You are correct about the recovery. As Stan wrote they are required to turn it into a certified recycler and not reuse it themselves in a different system.

[dennis thompson]

As I said in my original post we have just moved into a new, for us, house and the a/c needs Freon so I called a local a/c company and they quoted the following:
service call $93 (which I already paid)
first pound of Freon $183
all other pounds of Freon $123/lb
so if I were to need say 6 pounds the total cost would be $891

That seemed high so I called the people who serviced my old house (60 miles away)
they said they don't normally service my area but since I had been a customer for many years they would come to my new house,
their costs would be:
service call $125
Freon ( again say 6 pounds) @ $60/lb; total Freon cost of $360
total cost $485

so the second service would charge $406 less than the first company or almost 50% less than the first company

Lesson learned: If you need Freon check around

[Bruce Wrenn]

Make you feel good. Last week on local CL was a 30# cylinder (still sealed) of R-22 for $400. The last cylinder I bought several years ago, I paid $300 for a 30# cylinder. There are cheaper "drop in replacements" for R-22, but all of the R-22 has to be removed from system first. Because most are "blends," in case of a leak, system has to be evacuated and a total fresh charge put in. Bite the bullet, and put in a new system that uses 410-A. 410-A is a mixture of two gasses, one of which is highly combustible, and the other poisonous. Mixed, they are harmless, like salt NaCl.

[Peter Stahl]

Mine was about 9 years old when it started leaking so I went with the new type that uses the cheaper freon. Put the money towards a new compressor and "A" coil.

[Wes Mitchell]

We just went through the same thing a few weeks ago. Old A/C wasn't putting out ANY cold air. The tech came out and took a look. He said by the time they find and fix the leak, and fill up an empty system, I'd be over $1000. We opted to replace the old unit since it was installed in 1988 :) I was just happy it lasted as long as it did.

[Kev Williams]

One way to tell if new is better than recharging- Go to Harbor Freight, buy one of their $10 or so clamp-around current testers and see how much power your current unit is using...

Our AC unit's fan quit working. I was just going to replace the fan. For fun I put the current meter over one of the hot wires in the breaker box and got 17.4 amps...

I didn't think much about that until deciding to just replace the condenser and evaporator since they were 20 years old. Once up and running, I checked the new unit-- 9.5 amps! Old unit was using almost twice the power!

[Bert Kemp]

$10 meter from HF how good can that be?


One way to tell if new is better than recharging- Go to Harbor Freight, buy one of their $10 or so clamp-around current testers and see how much power your current unit is using...

Our AC unit's fan quit working. I was just going to replace the fan. For fun I put the current meter over one of the hot wires in the breaker box and got 17.4 amps...

I didn't think much about that until deciding to just replace the condenser and evaporator since they were 20 years old. Once up and running, I checked the new unit-- 9.5 amps! Old unit was using almost twice the power!

[Kev Williams]

Actually it's $12.99, sorry ;)

And it works just fine for my needs, told me what I needed to know!

They're great for checking bad grounds- put the clamp around a ground wire and if you get ANY reading, you have a ground fault-

Don't know how precise it is, but - how precise are any of them? :)

[Bert Kemp]

I'll grab one next trip near HF thanx


Actually it's $12.99, sorry ;)

And it works just fine for my needs, told me what I needed to know!

They're great for checking bad grounds- put the clamp around a ground wire and if you get ANY reading, you have a ground fault-

Don't know how precise it is, but - how precise are any of them? :)

[Matt Meiser]

I had a HF one and someone local had a nice name brand one for sale so I bought it as an upgrade. Both matched reading current on several different circuits.

The name brand one was a lot higher quality though, and had thinner probe fingers.