Sold Power Tools, help me spend $1200 Wisely

[Brian Sommers]

I know I want to get a Veritas Low Angle Jack Plane, but should I get the extra 2 blades or for now just keep the one that comes with it?

I have to be careful, becuase I want a good Bad Axe Carcass saw and at least one good Disston rip saw, I would like to get a cross cut panel saw as well.

I don't know where to go... I just want to make sure I spend the money wisely and stretch it as far as I can, but I have learned, that I want to buy once and be done with it.

I want to get three nice Ariou Rasps, I think, or maybe I should forget that until later?

I have good markers, knife, etc. I would like to get a good Rob Cosman dovetail saw...

Any advice would be great, thanks.

[Brian Holcombe]

The Auriou rasps are really nice, I actually have three of them, two tapered half rounds (one coarse one finer) and a rat tail. Great to have, come in handy on the regular.

[Frederick Skelly]

1. I know you said you weren't sure, but I'd still think about the kind of work you might want to do and use that to prioritize the purchases. For my shop, rasps and files get a lot of use. So I bought Iwasaki carving files and plan to buy 2-3 Aurious. But you might not use rasps as much, so might delay that purchase and buy the Badaxe instead. Likewise, if you plan to do alot of dovetails, that DT saw might be a good buy - otherwise defer it and buy bigger saws that help you dimension your lumber first.

2. I've learned (the hard way) that things go better for me if I buy only a few key items, then save the rest to buy what becomes obvious that I need (or need more of). For example, I'd buy the LA Jack without extra irons - you can buy those later if you need them. (And trust me here - I've bought several hand tools just because I wanted them - I'm as guilty of that as anyone else. But they don't get used as much as I expected.)

3. Other general use items to consider if you don't have them include good squares, good rules, a few good chisels, good brace and bits, sharpening stones, LV planing stops, clamps. Depending on the work you do, consider wooden dado planes, wooden rabbet planes, LV small plow plane, etc.

Let us know what you end up deciding to buy. Good luck!
Fred

[steven c newman]

This might be fun to sit and watch.....shall I pop some popcorn now...or later?

[Phil Mueller]

I agree with Fred, you can always get the minimum now and add later as you need. Not sure what you plan to build, but for what it's worth, here's a list of the saws and planes I recently used on my last few projects; a hall table, saw till, and a split top sawbench:

Saws: crosscut, tenon and dovetail backsaws, panel rip, fret, coping
Planes: BU jack, smoother, block, shoulder, router

As mentioned above various chisels, rules, squares, dividers, marking knives, sharpening. I will note, I found it much more convenient when I got my second and even third marking guages...

[Paul Sidener]

Rob Cosman makes a very nice dovetail saw, but over priced at $250. Lie Nielsen makes a dovetail saw that is equal to the Cosman saw, for half the price. With that change it's like you just got an Auriou rasp for nothing.

For the LA jack I would get one extra iron, the toothed iron.

[Prashun Patel]

I would get one carcass saw and skip the extra blades for the la jack. Do u own chisels? Rasps are great but if u plan to do more cases than sculpting then they could be less useful than smoothing cutting or joint fitting tools.

I guess, what do you want to do?

[Brian Sommers]

I want to make things like decorative boxes, small furniture (bedside and chair side tables) small hanging shelves for the kitchen etc. I have a hankerin' to try a chair as well someday. I want to make a high back type of "office" chair for myself out of wood or at least try.

But for now, small tables, small bookcases, end grain cutting boards, etc.

I use the sandpaper method for sharpening and that works well for me especially now that I can have that permanently set up at a separate sharpening station now that I have room! I do want to get the Veritas honing guides, I need all the help I can get.

I want to make sure I get good saws to break stuff down and be able to true up a piece of lumber, I'm hoping to be able to do that with my LA JP. I would like to get a good Disston rip and cc panel saw. that will cut what I have in half I'm afraid.

Good tip on the Lie Nelson saws. I do want to get a good Bad Axe Carcass, I've always wanted one of those and I figure I can't go wrong with that one.

[Tim Cooper Louisiana]

I agree with getting the LN dovetail and buy a rasp with the difference. I have the LN and it's a nice saw, but one day I'll get the bad axe stiletto.

[steven c newman]

You could take the short drive over to The Dungeon Shop...and get a feel for how some of these hand tools feel, and operate.....I'm just over in Bellefontaine, OH. Short drive....and yes, we have a lot of Amish people around here, as well..

[Phil Mueller]

Brian, I'll jump in again with my somewhat intermediate experience. Try to think through your first project. Take a small end table for example. Let's say it's 18" square top, 3-4" wide aprons, 2" tapered legs.

All the rough stock can be squared up with the BU jack. Now, I'm assuming S2S/S4S stock.

Top; you'll need a rip saw to cut panels to width, and can use the BU jack to joint the glue edges. You'll then need to smooth the top (BU jack can work), and square it up (rough out with rip and crosscut panel saws, and you can finish both long and end grain with the BU jack).

Aprons; Rip and crosscut saw to dimension the stock, BU jack to square the apron to final dimension, and a rip tenon saw and crosscut backsaw for the tenons. By the way, the BU jack is also an excellent plane for shooting.

Legs; maybe rip saw rough taper and fine tune with BU jack, or BU jack the whole taper. Crosscut saw to cut to final length.

Total; 4 saws, 1 plane. No need for rasps, files, etc. Very doable with your budget. Sure, other planes could be helpful; smoother, block, router, shoulder, etc. But the point is, you can afford to go quality with these minimum tools and still do a fine job on the project.

By the way, if a choice is needed, I'd go higher end tenon (or carcass) as rip, and a lessor cost crosscut (check out the Veritas line...excellent saws, and may fit the need for the smaller work you're planning).

[paul cottingham]

Frankly, you can't go wrong (seriously) with the LV dovetail saw (fine) and the two LV carcass saws. I have cut an awful lot of joinery with those saws. I got a screaming good deal on a Bad Axe sash saw and can't recommend one enough. I would never be able to afford one new (ever) but the deal I got on it was almost embarrassing. I love that saw. Add a couple of good panel saws and you are laughing.

[Stewie Simpson]

Brian; did you change your mind on the Incra purchase.


07-13-2016, 7:36 AM Thread: Getting ready to build a router table. questioning how much is to much? (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?245445-Getting-ready-to-build-a-router-table-questioning-how-much-is-to-much)

by Brian Sommers (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?156490-Brian-Sommers)


What I would really like to have is the Incra LS fence system and the Incra lift and all of those Incra goodies.

I realize that it will set me back about 1100-1200 US bucks.

[Mike Holbrook]

If you are price conscious you could go with Iwasaki rasps. I have half a dozen at least and use them more than my Auriou or Gramercy rasps.

Japanese saws are a bargain and you can usually replace the blade if you ever wear out the hardened teeth. The bowsaws made my Tools for Working Wood and WoodJoy are also very nice and can do the work of several saws by simply switching blades. Replaceable saw blades can save more than the cost of the saws too. Sharpening saws requires more tools and another skill set.

I love my Veritas LAJ but the custom Veritas planes can be used with or without a chip breaker and you have a choice between the #5 and the #5 1/2.

Chisels are also a very versatile tool.

[Brian Sommers]

I'm leaning toward the LN panel saws. Rip and xcut.
then the bad axe 12" carcass

then the la jp and a router plane and honing guide from lv

[Derek Cohen]

I know I want to get a Veritas Low Angle Jack Plane, but should I get the extra 2 blades or for now just keep the one that comes with it?

I have to be careful, becuase I want a good Bad Axe Carcass saw and at least one good Disston rip saw, I would like to get a cross cut panel saw as well.

I don't know where to go... I just want to make sure I spend the money wisely and stretch it as far as I can, but I have learned, that I want to buy once and be done with it.

I want to get three nice Ariou Rasps, I think, or maybe I should forget that until later?

I have good markers, knife, etc. I would like to get a good Rob Cosman dovetail saw...

Any advice would be great, thanks.

Brian

Why do you want the LA Jack? What uses do you plan for it? On a shooting board you need a 25 degree bevel. However, this is too low for anything other that cross- or endgrain work. As a short jointer or long smoother (I cannot imagine that if you are preparing boards by hand), I would use a higher cutting angle, say a 38 degree bevel. This can best be done on another 25 degree blade, especially if you want to add camber.

Basically, what I am leading to is that you should prioritise your immediate needs, which ideally are based on a current/planned project (and not purchase for some imagined future use).

What other tools/planes/chisels do you have? That will also help determine what you need.

Some tools you can make quite easily (bench, squares, knives, winding sticks, card scrapers), and there are some that are quite inexpensive and bargains if you are looking to save in some areas so you can spend in others (Stanley craft knife for a marking knife, LV dovetail saw ... LV saws generally). I could not justify the Rob Cosman saw in the context of your budget. I would rather have the tapered thin blade LN anyway.

Good rasps are great tools. What do you want to use them on ... and now? From memory, I have 10, 14 and 15 grain. I still finish with files and scrapers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Christopher Charles]

I can recommend the LV carcass saws--basically two for one compared to others. I'd also suggest considering a good #4 or similar and buying a used #5 and putting a solid camber on it. I've been tempted by the LA jack as well, but haven't ever been able to justify...

The advice to buy by the project is solid.

And great problem to have!

[Frederick Skelly]

Frankly, you can't go wrong (seriously) with the LV dovetail saw (fine) and the two LV carcass saws. I have cut an awful lot of joinery with those saws.


+1. I've tried both the LN and the LV dovetail saws. They are both nice tools. I bought the LV DT and LV carcass because I just couldn't beat the performance vs price. I have not regretted it - the LV is definitely not a throwaway tool.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Several people have suggested you buy what you need for a real project, and not get in a hurry to spend a lot on tools you may use very little or not at all. This comes up a lot in the chisel threads, where people buy a whole set of nine or whatever, and then realize they only ever use one or two of the set. You are getting good advice there.

A good project if you don't have one and are new to hand tools is a saw bench. Buy a 2 x 8, break it down, flatten and square the components, and see what you think. You could do that with a rip saw, a backsaw, one chisel, and a jack plane. None of the joinery is complicated, but in all honesty most of hand tool work is not making fancy joinery. It is breaking stock down, flattening it, and squaring it up. A little project like that will give you a chance to see if you like doing things that way (if you have not already made up your mind).

If you are new to hand tools I would certainly recommend you take a day trip to visit Steven, or some other member who lives near you. That is a very kind offer he has made to many members here, and is of tremendous value. He can show you his stuff (which he has acquired from people who pretty much paid him to take it if I recall correctly). You might not have his bargaining ability, but even for normal people used tools can be had a lot cheaper than the LN/LV stuff. For example, I think I have about the same amount in my planes as you would have in that one Cosman saw (that includes a Stanley No. 7, 5, Keen Kutter 4 1/2, a wooden try, and a wooden smoother, plus a fence for the No. 7). You can set yourself up with a decent set for $1,200, but not if you spend it on new stuff. I started with very few tools and some advice from a good friend, and have built up a set of tools over a decade or more. Going slow is good because it lets you get what you need (and not a bunch of things that just sit on the shelf), and also lets you do it more cheaply (you can watch prices and buy when the price is right).

In any event, good luck.

[Brian Holcombe]

If you plan to build small furniture, you may want to take that in steps. Prepping stock by hand requires three planes, breaking down stock requires two saws, and basic joinery requires a few saws and chisels.

What do you want to start with first?

If you are set on buying new, then you are likely to spend your $1200 accomplishing one of the above tasks, two if you spend carefully.

Are you building a bench or do you own a bench?

[Prashun Patel]

It sounds like you want saws first. For small boxes, I submit that you may not need three saws to start. Get a carcass cross cut and rip saw, and then add to your arsenal as these fail to meet your needs.

You haven't spoken of smoothing planes - which for the boxes and casework you wish to build can be wonderful.

Speaking of boxes (hat tip to Pandora), with that much $$ to spend, I would invest in "proper" sharpening stones. I'm sure you're doing fine with sandpaper but I have not met a person who regrets going to stones from paper.

[Brian Sommers]

My current inventory of hand tools:

Two Veritas back saws, the xcut and rip.

Japanese hard back pull saw

marking tools, knife, wheel, etc.

incra true square and a 45 deg. gauge.

Two bit braces, with one dedicated to a 13/16 auger for drilling bench dog holes if/when I need them.

These planes were bought locally from an Amish woodworker here in town, he ground and sharpened and set these up for me.
#7 set up as a roughing plane
#4 set up as a smoothing plane
block plane for taking sharp edges down.

my $12 special FatMax - not to terrible for a rough xcut.

Winding sticks

Veritas steel straight edge

Incra corner squares

A not to bad of a bench, that I made.

bench hook

shooting board

clamps

[Rob Luter]

I got all three blades with my LA Jack. They're really handy. The lowest angle is used for shooting, the medium one for general smoothing, and the high angle for gnarly grain, I could get by without the middle one, as I use a LN 4 1/2 for general purpose smoothing.

[Jim Koepke]

My current inventory of hand tools:

Two Veritas back saws, the xcut and rip.

Japanese hard back pull saw

marking tools, knife, wheel, etc.

incra true square and a 45 deg. gauge.

Two bit braces, with one dedicated to a 13/16 auger for drilling bench dog holes if/when I need them.

These planes were bought locally from an Amish woodworker here in town, he ground and sharpened and set these up for me.
#7 set up as a roughing plane
#4 set up as a smoothing plane
block plane for taking sharp edges down.

my $12 special FatMax - not to terrible for a rough xcut.

Winding sticks

Veritas steel straight edge

Incra corner squares

A not to bad of a bench, that I made.

bench hook

shooting board

clamps

A low angle bevel up jack plane would be a good addition to your set. It would also be advantageous for you to find an old Stanley/Bailey*#5 to include in your line up. An extra (Stanley original) blade or two for this would be an inexpensive addition to set it up for scrub work.

If you are going to build boxes and drawers you will likely want to have a plow plane to cut slots for the bottoms. One with a few beading blades will help to add decorative effects.

There are no chisels on your list. A few sizes, 1/4, 3/8 & 1/2", might be very helpful

A recent addition to my tool selection has impressed me greatly. That is the Knew Concepts Fret Saw. It has me thinking about eventually selling all my other fret saws.

Most plow planes have the ability to double as a rabbet plane. A router plane would be helpful for mortise & tenon work as well as putting hinges on small boxes. Veritas has a small router for about $50 that is on my wish list.

It seems everyone loves spending other people's money.

jtk

[Brian Sommers]

I have a decent set of old restored chisels, I forgot to mention them.

So this is what I've ordered and I'm a little over my $1200 already, man that went fast.

1. a LN panel saw, both rip 8 and xcut 7
2. Bad Axe 12" carcass saw, hybrid 13tpi, got that going.
3. Veritas LA JP with just the low 25 deg. blade, of course they are out until 8/17 but at least its in the loop.
4. Veritas honing guide deluxe system
5. Veritas planning fence
6. Veritas router planner and the 1/4" blade, oh , with the fence
7. Wonder Dog

and that's about all she wrote, for now.

[paul cottingham]

You are well set up. The only thing I would have done differently is I would have bought used panel saws or regular length saws. Don't get me wrong, the LN are terrific saws, and you will love them. I just have a mighty love for the old (1940's and earlier) taper ground Atkins and Disston saws. And if you are patient, you can get them for a song. I would add a LV dovetail saw if you don't have a DT saw. Even if you don't hand saw a single dovetail, it's nice to have a small fine saw filed rip. It's useful for a zillion things, even small cross cuts.

the nice thing about buying new is now you know how a sharp saw should perform. So if you get the bug, and start rehabbing, you know what the standard is!

[Nick Stokes]

Well, one thing you did RIGHT was buying the best available. Those are arguably the best tools made in each category.

Only problem now is... No excuses...

[Brian Sommers]

Thanks. Now I have to wait until it gets here but I have a lot of cleaning and rearranging to do.

[Luke Dupont]

Rather than expensive BU Veritas planes, I'd buy a range of nice vintage BD Stanleys at a fraction of the price. They're wonderful tools, very flexible, and you can put the savings towards other essential tools.

For me, the essentials would be:

1. A smoothing and Jack Plane
2. A tenon saw and rip saw
3. A good set of chisels
4. Card Scrapers
5. Brace and bits (Unless you prefer to use a power drill)

And nice to haves, in no particular order, would be:
- Router Plane
- Spokeshave
- Draw-knife
- Hatchet
- Eggbeater Drill
- Gimlets
- Crosscut Saw

These are just ideas though. You should buy the tools that you need for a given project as you need them, and as you work, you'll get an idea of what tools will make your life easier and what tools you actually need/don't need. As you gain more skill though, you might find that the basic tools are more flexible than you realize, and that you might not need a lot of the fancier tools that you originally thought you would.

Don't forget everything that goes along with these tools, and also the cost of wood and materials. Besides wood to work with, you'll need sharpening stones, saw files and sets, and a surprising number of little costly items that may not factor into your budget.

Seriously though. Consider old vintage tools on Ebay and at flea markets. A lot of them are of great quality and a fraction of the price you'll pay for new ones. Plus, they'll give you experience learning to set up and maintain your tools properly.

[steven c newman]

Something like this?
341513
341514

Just a tease...

[Mark Fisher]

I recently went though a similar exercise. If I had to do it again, here is what I'd do:

1. Planes: Nice, pre-war Stanley #5 plus a Hock or Veritas replacement blade and chip breaker and a Lie-Neilsen block plane (either one). The old Stanley will teach you how to properly set up a plane.....a good thing.
2. Chisels: set of Ashley Iles chisels from Tools for Woodworking. Amazing for the price. Maybe a 1/4" and a 3/8" mortise chisel also.
3. Saws: Get old Disston cross cut and rip saws and a Disston tenon saw. Have Mark at Bad Axe sharpen them or to it yourself. I did my own for the full size saws and Mark did my tenon saw. They all work well. I also bought the Bad Axe small tenon saw that is a nice dovetail saw.....my only real crazy splurge but worth it. I suspect the much less expensive Lie Neilsen works every bit as well. Make bench hooks or buy a set from Mark.
4. Measuring and marking: Get a digital caliper...a cheap one is fine. A stainless steel ruler from an art store is nice. Get a couple of machinists squares from someplace like McMaster Carr. They are accurate and not terribly expensive. For marking, I bought a Tite-Mark marking gauge. I wasted my money on the Lee Valley and a wood one. Spring for the Tite-Mark.
5. Drilling: Stick with a cordless electric. I've had a hard time finding a decent eggbeater drill. A brace is cheap, but make sure you find a decent set of bits and a file to sharpen them with.
6. Router plane: Find a decent used one or get a Veritas or Lie Neilsen. I found a Millers Falls for $30 and it works fine.....although someone painted it with what looks like Navy surplus paint.
6. Sharpening: get a set of oil or water stones and learn how to use them. For the coarse stone, I'd get a diamond stone simply because a coarse waterstone wears so quickly...it is also handy to flatten waterstones. You'll soon be sharpening everything in the house. You really don't need a sharpening jig, but it is handy to use sometimes.
7. With the rest of the money, but wood and make stuff starting with a nice workbench. I made Will Meyer's Morovian bench. It isn't as heavy as the Roubo but it is plenty sturdy and heavy enough.

Don't go crazy and spend all the money at once. Used tools are bargains as long as you are willing to put in the time and effort to tune them up. Personally, I like doing that.

[Rich Riddle]

You received some good advice in here and Mark just offered some himself. I prefer decent quality tools and stick to Veritas or LN for planes. For saws I like Ron Bontz. Good luck on your decision to convert to the Neander methods.

[steven c newman]

The OP could wait around on the NEW plough plane that is coming out....I didn't.
341560
Of course, find one of these with all the cutters..
341561
could get a bit pricey, but it does the work of 7 different planes
341562
It will do a dado, of any width...
341563
As long as the spurs are sharp. Now, since the new and improved plough planes cut on the skew...
341564

Means you can't use over half of these cutters. Can't cut a bead with a skewed iron, or use one of these match plane cutters,
341565341566
Or the sash cutters. Stanley #45....

[Pat Barry]

I have a decent set of old restored chisels, I forgot to mention them.

So this is what I've ordered and I'm a little over my $1200 already, man that went fast.

1. a LN panel saw, both rip 8 and xcut 7
2. Bad Axe 12" carcass saw, hybrid 13tpi, got that going.
3. Veritas LA JP with just the low 25 deg. blade, of course they are out until 8/17 but at least its in the loop.
4. Veritas honing guide deluxe system
5. Veritas planning fence
6. Veritas router planner and the 1/4" blade, oh , with the fence
7. Wonder Dog

and that's about all she wrote, for now.\Those are nice tools of course but, I think you should exchange the router plane and the planing / jointing fence for a set of chisels, and I am ambivalent about the deluxe honing guide.