Raised panel cutter for shaper

[Susumu Mori]

Hi all,

I have a shaper but for raised panels, I'm still using a router bit (3.5 inch). It runs and cuts fine with a 1/2 inch coupler and at 10,000 rpm. The shaper runs much quieter and smoother. So, I like it but it needs many passes (6-7 passes).

I guess my question is, do you think it's worth investing on a shaper cutter for raised panels? For a long run, I understand that Euro-style heads would be cheaper, but other than that, what has been your experience?

I'd appreciate your advices.

Thanks,

Susumu

[Martin Wasner]

A shaper will be an improvement. To do it really well it takes a heavy shaper with a ton of power, low enough spindle rpm, and a carbide insert head. The shaper I use for panel raising is a 9hp SAC TS125 spinning a four wing carbide insert head at 4500 rpm with a four wheel power feed. It does the best job panel raising I've ever seen come out of a shaper, I'd put it toe to toe with a, shape & sand.

[Susumu Mori]

Thanks Martin,

Mine is 4hp. No slouch, but not a 9hp monster.
How many passes do you do with your setting?

[Martin Wasner]

Single pass

[Mel Fulks]

I'm usually using 6000 rpm or 8000,depending on size of raise. Usually with 4 inch corg head. For years used only old style shaper collars. Prefer T1 or M2 steel. Big raise gets two passes. Very little sanding. Also like that corg. head panel cutter sold by Schmidt.

[Mark Wooden]

I've raised many panels with 3 hp and under shapers, one being a Walker Turner S1140 shaper with a 1hp motor, running at 7000 rpm. I would rough out the panels on the tablesaw first then make the hip cut on the shaper. Key is sharp tooling.
Like Mel, I prefer steel for solid wood (I have the heads that he describes) and use carbide for composites, although the better manufacturers use fine grain carbide that puts a nice finish on solids.

[lowell holmes]

My 1970's vintage Delta shaper is 1 1/2 hp (I think). It is pictured. It does just fine raising panels. It also does fine with various door cutters. I bought it in the 1970's.
I've made block paneling, residential exterior raised panel doors, Bank board room doors, and also kitchen cabinets.
I've posted photos of exterior doors that I've built.

A big elaborate machine would be nice if I were running a commercial shop, but I'm a garage shop amateur. I was a contractor at one time. That's when I bought the shaper.
I couldn't find a bigger shaper, although I did not look for one.

341265

[Jared Sankovich]

I went from raising panels on a porter cable 7518 to a 3hp delta hd to a 5hp grizzly. Cut quality increased each time, and one pass is so much nicer than multiples.

I would never go back to doing them with a router.

[Susumu Mori]

Thank you all,

So, if I hear you correctly, it doesn't make too much sense to do 7 passes with a router bit using a 4hp shaper.
I don't think I have guts to raise a panel with one pass but 2 passes seem reasonable.

A decent insert cutter is about $200 with steel blades and the blade replacements are about $70-90. If they are faster and better cuts, I guess I should give it a try.

[Jim Andrew]

I have a Grizzly3hp shaper, and bought one of their carbide tipped panel raising cutters. I run the panels through 2 passes. Also use a power feeder. The cutter goes on top, and your panels are much better than with a router cutter. Tried that, filled the cabinet with chips. The shaper cutter throws the chips up and the dust collector gets the chips. Power feeder makes all the difference.

[Wayne Lomman]

I have done panels on both shaper and overhead router. Shaper beats the overhead every time. I prefer either 3or 4 wing solid cutter's. Once again I don't get the popularity of hss but I guess it must be that you guys don't have the abrasive timbers like Australia. If I use hss planer blades I would be lucky to get 100 feet before they lost their edge. Cheers

[ed vitanovec]

I used a 3hp shaper for my Oak raised panel doors. The cutters are Freud and am very happy with them. I would do 2 passes on the raised panels since it is a lot of material being removed. Second pass was more of a cleaning pass to sneak up on final thichness. I also did a back cut so my panel fronts were flush with stiles and rails.

[Andrew Gibson]

I will preface this with that I work for Infinity Cutting Tools, but the shaper is the way to go if you have the machine.
We sell a carbide insert system (Insert Pro) that allows you to choose face up or face down by using right hand or left hand knives. We did this so you can take 2 heads and stack them with a rub collar and run panel for an interior or exterior door raised on both sides in a single pass. We have a 3 HP shaper here in the shop and I was able to run 1-3/4" thick oak panels in 1 pass without a power feed. Then again I run cabinet door panels at the router table in 2 passes, 3 tops.
So my question would be what router bit are you using that you need 7 passes?

[lowell holmes]

You might try this site.

http://woodworker.com/shaker-raised-panel-15-deg-34-bore-mssu-150-027.asp?search=shaper%20cutters&searchmode=2

Or this site

http://www.infinitytools.com/shaping

[Jeff Duncan]

I use the Innovator heads made and sold by CG Schmidt. These are a great way to get some flexibility for your raised panels without breaking the bank. You can get standard profiles in either HSS or Carbide and they are very easy to set up and get running. With an industrial 4 hp machine you should be able to do most profiles in a single pass. Otherwise 2 passes with the second being mostly a light cleanup pass. And you'll definitely want to be using a feeder for this. The size of these heads means having a large opening in the fence....not good for hand feeding!

good luck,
JeffD

[Warren Lake]

HI Mel

how many cutters in the head, 2?
how thick is the steel 3/8"
degree of head or use more than one?
knife grind angle, secondary bevel on the tip?
how much cutting length on your medium or larger panels
do your cutters start cutting under the head itself, think so,
two passes how deep the second one one guy on the site says have to have a fairly deep cut to get clean cutting or so cutters last longer so wondered how much material on your second pass when you do, depends on the wood as well,
I dont get your speeds my corg heads are rated im pretty sure each brand for 5,500 RPM Max but should take a look forgotten now,


I have two cutters, lowest RPM about 3000 or 2,900, and feeder set on slowest speed and done one pass. Ran it faster but dont like to when the cutter overhang is not by the book. I think I tried taking off a second pass minimal say .020 - .030 and it was no cleaner on poplar either way. Have to try that again and with fresh cutters. I normally hone stuff first and think I prefer the ones that dont have the secondary bevel on the top

If its like the grocery store and isle one only so many I might have asked too many questions

[Mel Fulks]

Warren, as an employee I've refused to do anything I knew to be dangerous ; but of course , have not always had the stuff I thought best. Most set ups have been 3/8 or 5/16 steel. If they only bought low grade steel could usually get them to buy m2 or t1 and prove its superior finish. In this town there are a lot more 20 degree heads than the 12 degree even though, these days, most jobs are with hardwoods. Panel sizes as small as 3/4 inch installed exposure to probably 1 and 3/4. The the small get one pass ,the larger get two passes controlled by moving fence about 3/8 to 1/2, not height. In all my years of work I broke one knife. I get better finish and knife wear by feeding not too slowly. With the smallest raises on stained work I've been able to eliminate sanding on with the grain cuts and just 180 or 220 on end grain.

[Martin Wasner]

There's a formula we used to determine our rpm and feed rate. We went above and below in spindle speed and feed rate but kept coming back to what the formula gave us.

Running the rpm too high will nuke your edges faster. If your getting any burning or burnishing, you're spinning too fast and just abusing the knives. Or, they're already dull. The tough part about panel raising is the massive speed difference of the major diameter compared to the minor diameter. The inside edge of the knife is crawling, the tip is moving at ludicrous speed.

If you're getting dents, chances are your feed rate is too high and the knives aren't effectively evacuating the swarf.

Another thing that has really helped us as far as tear out at the edge goes, is using a continuous fence under the cutter instead of using a bearing. Think of it as a zero clearance insert when cutting melamine. The cut isn't 100% supported since the fence the panel rides on is 3/16" thick, but it is much more so than riding on a bearing. I haven't had a panel split right at the edge since making this change. It's also nice for feeding since there's no bumps coming off the split fence and onto the bearing. Properly aligned it's not a huge deal, but even set up perfectly you're bridging at least four inches with the head I use if you're running a bearing. It's a poo your pants moment when a tiny panel jams and starts twisting around under the feeder unexpectedly. I run 5/8" panels with no relief on the back. I'm not sure how a continuous gene would work with there back cutter.

I'll try to find that formula and post it

[Warren Lake]

HI Mel

thanks for my gaggle of questions. Its just me here and ive not been by the book I know at times. What about the RPM I wont get a chance till tonight to check the RPM on the heads but arent you over the spec on currugated heads? .

Thanks on how you do the fence you cut in part way to finished depth then a second the rest of the way as opposed to dropping and taking of another X amount. I have a small mickey mouse moulding machine I modified and tests either way made no difference, the slow speed thing is overcome by feed rate at least on my tests on these machines im at low RPM for knife safety as my overhang from the head is big so I offset that with the slow speed then slowest feed rate.

Know all too well about not always having what I need stuff, I look at Joes posts and all that gear and almost dont sleep at night, man would that be nice or geez thats a great set up or.

My panel corrugated came with this last machine havent sharpened any of them yet and once through this reno stuff will be able to put time into it. Sounds like you are getting a very clean cut.

[Mel Fulks]

Warren, I've seen some heads that were not even stamped with rpm limit. But I think most of the moulders run about 7500 rpm and use a little larger diameter ,so I consider the 8000 speed safe on the 4 inch diameter shaper heads. And the design of those corg heads allows some cutting inside the head diameter at bottom of head. One place I worked used a bunch of college students to sand wood raised panels cut with low grade three wing carbide head. The boss did not believe I was going to eliminate all that ,but I did. I do understand that the good heads with insert carbide are a good product miles ahead of the stuff only suitable for mdf.

[Martin Wasner]

Here's that formula:

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/r90/13686532_10208519574858107_7987116671438160974_n.j pg?oh=af25f5a2cda970de083087c8a3c0b2a0&oe=5822BD9B


This is with the head installed. I thought it was 7" in diameter, it's 6". I bought this second hand from a cousin that had it custom made by Dimensions in Tooling, in Grainger Indiana. My cousin never got it to work correctly since he didn't have a shaper with a slow enough spindle speed, or enough power.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13782151_10208519574298093_4962759442211309392_n.j pg?oh=634977a03606ea813390016186681f55&oe=582F6920


Here you can see the continious fence that rides under the cutter itself. When I originally made it, I made it out of UHMW plastic. But i messed it up, and didn't have another scrap big enough to work. I need to replace that. The baltic birch one that is on there is also a little messed up, I had to throw a different cutter in there for a reason I can't remember and had to thin it out around the cutter. So right now it's only about 1/8" thick under the head. I wish I had that smaller throat plate, but so far it has not been an issue. I can't be too picky when I paid $1200 for this shaper. Sourcing a replacement would be tricky as well since the deck of the machine is ground with the plates in it. They might be all rusted in too, since this thing was pretty much a wreck when I got it.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13680919_10208519574178090_7452519591844599950_n.j pg?oh=a6907be2616e7b5f9e05e15f9aca75f6&oe=58168103


To be fair, these are brand new knives. I had this profile on my old LRH head, but not for the Dimension in Tooling head so I ordered a set of knives and backers. They just showed up last week so I ran a panel for a sample door for a customer. You could scrub it with a kitten and be good to go.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13615020_10208519574418096_6126497747932484797_n.j pg?oh=4e35fffdf3ec2ddce16004f7c1bbb66f&oe=582C073C


and the end grain of that same panel.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13620858_10208519574578100_3682845610506046880_n.j pg?oh=bb3cdcb387e80d5947b4b93eae90a3bc&oe=5817C922

[Jim Andrew]

Martin, thanks for posting that!

[Justin Ludwig]

I've been using the 3/16" fence for some time now. Martin articulated it's use very well with pics. It takes away the hesitation of running short end-grain panels and the "ohh sh*" moment of "is it gonna make it?" I use only have a 3 wheel feeder so it's very important how the 2 close wheels are positioned. I still run a backer sacrificial board behind a narrow panel that gives me a warm and fuzzy on those passes.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree that the 3/16 fence is a good idea. You can also use wide boards with sap edges or knots for a few narrow panels ;leaving them wide for end grain passes ,then ripping before with grain passes.

[Martin Wasner]

I've been using the 3/16" fence for some time now. Martin articulated it's use very well with pics. It takes away the hesitation of running short end-grain panels and the "ohh sh*" moment of "is it gonna make it?" I use only have a 3 wheel feeder so it's very important how the 2 close wheels are positioned. I still run a backer sacrificial board behind a narrow panel that gives me a warm and fuzzy on those passes.


I wasn't able to do it until I had a shaper that I could leave set up for panel raising. I always wanted to try setting it up this way, but the change over time would put me in a murderous rage if I had to remake a door for whatever reason.

The second shaper pic, in the upper right you can just see the end of my chaser board for short stuff.

Mel is spot on about using wider boards, running the end grain, then ripping it down. I don't really feel there's any danger, but when it's barely in contact with the feeder the part can lift a little and muck up the profile.

[Rod Sheridan]

I've been using the 3/16" fence for some time now. Martin articulated it's use very well with pics. It takes away the hesitation of running short end-grain panels and the "ohh sh*" moment of "is it gonna make it?" I use only have a 3 wheel feeder so it's very important how the 2 close wheels are positioned. I still run a backer sacrificial board behind a narrow panel that gives me a warm and fuzzy on those passes.

Hi, I added the safety finger kit to my shaper, it can be used on metal or wood fences. It has 4 aluminum fingers, 2 thick, 2 thin.

Here's a photo of it on my shaper.

341587

regards, Rod.

[Jordan Lane]

Where might one locate a finger safety kit for the shaper? Google did not help much

[Warren Lake]

now that I logged in there are two posts Rods and one other about fingers that I dont see so not sure where this will go, maybe to mars.

You can also just add a 3/16 strip of metal to the bottom of a wood fence that works fine as well if you need to keep it simple. Drill holes countersink put fine flat head screws in and away you go. I have one with a wood strip on the bottom its not strong enough and I dont trust it.

Martin I was told you can do narrow stuff with a belt feeder, One came with a machine and I tested that statement and it worked perfect just passing it on didnt matter how narrow the panel was, I only did a few and was suspicious at first but it worked perfectly as it rode on the metal strip and had constant pressure,

[John Lankers]

Felder makes them, so does Aigner and several others, or you can build your own:
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/ShopBuilt_Adjustable_Shaper_Fence.html

[David Kumm]

341602341603 Here are the Aigner and Felder kits. The downside of the Aigner is the fingers are too thick to work with most Freeborn or Freud 6" cutters unless you use a short tongue. I like a little larger profile. Here are some for comparison341604341605 The left is Leitz and you can see the additional field compared to the Freeborn. The large one is just crazy but really cheap because so few can run it. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Dave,
You can remove the Aigner cassettes and make a wood fence with 20 degree cuts on the end to fit in. They are held securely and no need to clamp them. Works good for freeborn panel raisers. For 1.25 shafts smaller diameter spacers can be had that help for getting in close. We usually use the 30mm shaft with bushings for these because the spacer is smaller.


341612
341614
341615

[Joe Calhoon]

With 40 years in the business we have a collection of many panel raisers from HSS, braised carbide and tantung and now insert with the fine grained thin carbide. Those make the best cut and longest life of any but still require some sanding.
I have not tried the Inovator head Jeff mentions but have heard good things about it.

341616
341617
341618

[Warren Lake]

joe why do you cut from the bottom?

top down gives you an exact consistent tongue, I stroke sand the back of the panels first then run on a feed and leave a bit for sanding. I realize your machines are more accurate in terms of what comes out of your planer still you are making a consistent thickness tongue

I only have 35 years, but it seems like 50, shit where did 35 years go, there were many 80-90 hours weeks so does that count for more :)

[Warren Lake]

both your panel samples look really clean. I get decent results but the cutter I use needs to be reground and ive honed it a few times and used it that way but I was starting with a dull cutter. Im in reno mode now but when there is time will do some samples.

Martin how deep is your panel slot and how long is the tongue before the panel raise starts, you have x amount of clearance. I do doors the old way with mitered profile and one limitation at times is I cant make the panel slot deeper than the profile, that is not completely true as depending it will be buried in the haunch, it depends on the tennon thickness and if I center it or not. does that baltic not deflect under your fence. If it does at all try metal one shaper I bought had 3/16 in a crude much used fence and it works very well.

ive never tried that and Martin as far as speed and the math ive never looked at it I look at the cut. I found years ago on moldings that a blanket statement slower speed equalled cleaner cut at some point slower made no difference, not very scientific but on a mickey mouse Molder i have that has a speed control you slow it down and run one pass you can run birdseye maple through and it comes out clean.

[Joe Calhoon]

Warren,
We run from both top and bottom. Bottom gives better dust collection and cutter on top is better for small and narrow panels. We used to have a stroke sander and always ran cutter on top with that.

[Warren Lake]

thanks never thought about the dust aspect. are you climb cutting in one photo? I stroke the panels as that is all I have sure a good wide belt would be more accurate however ive got lots of time on stroke sanders

[Martin Wasner]

Martin how deep is your panel slot and how long is the tongue before the panel raise starts, you have x amount of clearance. I do doors the old way with mitered profile and one limitation at times is I cant make the panel slot longer deeper than the profile, it depends on the tennon thickness and if I center it or not. does that baltic not deflect under your fence. If it does at all try metal one shaper I bought had 3/16 in a crude much used fence and it works very well

The slot in the sticking is 1/2" deep. The flat in the profile I showed there is 7/16" deep. With a raised panel door, my panel is 1/4" less than the hole, so about a 1/16" of that flat area on the panel is exposed. The total width of the panel profile is 1-5/8".

If that strip of baltic birch deflects, I haven't noticed it. It's fairly wide, I'd have to measure to be sure, but I think it's about 3" in that area, and it's screwed to the split fence every 6" or so. I also don't run a ton of angle on the power feeder for this since you're not going to be bending a panel to get it to smash straight against the fence like you would with sticking. The edges should be fairly straight after being sized. I kicked around putting a strip of aluminum on there, I'm not sure I'd do steel. Something goes haywire, or you get a bad insert that shatters for no reason, things could get hairy quickly. I would like to go back to the UHMW plastic one. I just haven't had a scrap to do so.





Holy cows Joe, that is a big honking profile in that mahogany panel. I take it that is for interior doors?

With the cutter running face down, how do you handle really narrow panels? Like the little ones in a top drawer raised panel where you end up with only 7/8" of flat after the profile has been ran? Or is that specific setup for something that it wouldn't be an issue, like pass doors?

[Joe Calhoon]

[QUOTE=Martin Wasner;2588441)




Holy cows Joe, that is a big honking profile in that mahogany panel. I take it that is for interior doors?

With the cutter running face down, how do you handle really narrow panels? Like the little ones in a top drawer raised panel where you end up with only 7/8" of flat after the profile has been ran? Or is that specific setup for something that it wouldn't be an issue, like pass doors?[/QUOTE]

Martin, Normally we run on top gor for all the reasons you state. That big 220mm diameter panel cutter is for exterior doors. It can do several different profiles. In that picture we were running wide panels and dust collection is better with cutter on bottom.
Warren,
No climb cutting on panels or hardly anything in our shop. I have a lot of experence on stroke sanders. I hated to get rid of my Samco when we got a WBS. Just did not have the space.

[Warren Lake]

thanks to both of you.

Joe my stroke sander says Special on it and im pretty sure its Samco, there were two models mine is he lighter one the only difference I saw on the other were the sides were alot heavier. Ive seen that better model barely sell at auctions. I have an italian drum sander big old beast never impressed me but on a good day I can do lots with a stroke sander, you can also do some damage pretty fast. Love the power table and open end after having a Progress before. Its a good way for use to appreciate machines when we step up from one to one better.

Ive got to do some detail drawings of the panels and slots and tongues etc. of my dimensions an why. I had some door parts here from a carpenter where he made his slots 5/8" or more deep and the rails and styles actually closed in on maple overnight before he assembled them from the tension release of the slot.

[Mel Fulks]

Warren, we used to get orders for 2 and 1/4 inch thick fir doors. The panels were back to back full thickness and the panel groove 5/8 "
Even though the fir was a dependably good kiln dried product the panel grooves would all close up some so we had to let the parts settle in for at least a day before raising the panels and try the fit in a number of parts to find a fit that would work for all.

[Justin Ludwig]

I wasn't able to do it until I had a shaper that I could leave set up for panel raising. I always wanted to try setting it up this way, but the change over time would put me in a murderous rage if I had to remake a door for whatever reason.

The second shaper pic, in the upper right you can just see the end of my chaser board for short stuff.

Mel is spot on about using wider boards, running the end grain, then ripping it down. I don't really feel there's any danger, but when it's barely in contact with the feeder the part can lift a little and muck up the profile.

Since I only have a paltry 5hp Grizzly shaper for now, I have a fence for almost every cutter that's a different diameter. I hate hate hate Grizzly's fence system so I only use the dust cover, which I have several mods to improve DC. For every fence, I have an offset jig or board that I can position the needed distance referenced from the miter slot. It greatly reduces my change over time with consistent results. After my shop is built and the panel saw and wide belt are in, I'll be buying a few more shapers and will be selling the Griz.

I never thought of Mel's idea. I'm definitely gonna be using that method in the future.

[Mel Fulks]

Thank you, Justin. I'm complimented to see it called my idea...but like most things learned in a commercial shop it was given to me under the usual unsaid but always understood " do it like this ,or get out".

[Justin Ludwig]

Thank you, Justin. I'm complimented to see it called my idea...but like most things learned in a commercial shop it was given to me under the usual unsaid but always understood " do it like this ,or get out".

Well, I never worked in any formal cabinet shop. I actually ventured out on my own after just building 3 sets of cabinets (a fool's errand) which has turned into a baptism by fire. This site has saved me numerous times. I had no idea just how ignorant I was to the industry.

[Martin Wasner]

. I had no idea just how ignorant I was to the industry.

You'll keep rediscovering that tidbit too. Just when you think you've got an idea dialed in, you'll throw it all away for something better and wonder why you hadn't made the change more quickly. Last year quality shapers and tooling was my "ah ha moment". $20k later we're making kick ass doors quickly and efficiently with very fast change over times and I'm wondering why I didn't do it sooner. (usually cash on hand is the answer)

Or, you're a hell of a lot smarter than I am.

[Martin Wasner]

And, there's always room for improvement. Either quality, time, or yield