Buffing questions

[Aaron Craven]

I've had a few bowls recently that didn't have quite the sheen I wanted (primarily on oil finishes), so I've decided to pick up some buffing equipment. I'm not a big fan of wax for most items, so I'll probably skip the carnauba step (though I'm buying all three wheels in case I change my mind). I still need to pickup some compounds and a mount (I'm thinking of creating my own mount instead of buying one).

I'm sure everyone has their own take on this... what is your buffing recipe? do you skip any compounds (I've seen the warnings about white diamond in dark open-pore woods)? What happens if you buff without any kind of compound on a wheel (say with a clean wax wheel)? Other thoughts/tips?

[Roger Chandler]

Aaron, you can buy all three wheels and compounds, along with the MT-2 arbor in a kit from Beall. It will save you a good bit over getting them separately from different sources.

http://www.bealltool.com/products/buffing/buffer.php

[Aaron Craven]

Thanks, Roger. I looked at that before and didn't notice the 4" kit. Unfortunately, I already order the wheels through Craft Supply. Not that I really paid more for them. The three wheel set is the same price on both sides. But I could have gotten the compounds with them at the same time. *shrug* oh well... I can pick those up at my local tool store.

How well does the MT2 arbor work? I was concerned that without tailstock support it might slip out of the taper. I was thinking about drilling a hole for the arbor into the end of a spindle blank, gluing a nut in to match the threads on the arbor, and put either a tenon (for chucking) or tapping (1x8 for my lathe) on the other end. Obviously tapping would be challenging because I'll need to find a thick enough piece of stock to allow the threads to be cut into face grain (and also I don't know if I have a 1x8 tap at my disposal). Another thought was to do something similar with steel pipe to make something similar to the hold fast adapter. Or maybe just mount it in a Jacob's chuck (which of course would have the same issues as the MT2 taper)? Not sure what my options might be until I get the wheels...

[Bob Bouis]

You can do the buffing with a morse taper drill chuck and $3 generic "mushroom" buffs. Maybe the beall stuff is better, but it's not necessary. You just tap the chuck in with a mallet, and it's not going to come out. From time to time I have just shoved the chuck in (too lazy to remove the buff already in it) and when it gets loose it doesn't fly out dramatically. It just sort of falls onto the lathe ways.

Personally I rarely use the coarser ("tripoli") compound and will use the white diamond or silicone free automotive polish.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I did some hunting around trying to save some money, and wound up buying the Beall system anyways. What I learned is that all wheels and buffs are not the same. The different compounds, Tripoli/W.D./carnuba require different fabric. Some fabrics, if you buy generic wheels, say cotton, have different stiffness, some are hard and tightly woven others are not. Some wheels are loose and some are stitched, some are fully stitched. The tightly woven fabrics are mostly for metal polishing. You could research what fabrics go with which compound, and which application. Save yourself the frustration of tossing out the aforementioned fuly stitched wheel because it just does not work on wood. It's way too stiff. Not saying that the Beall system is the best, there are many others, but I'm happy with it and they already did all the research.

I do know folks who only use carnuba..... You need to do a LOT of sanding. Very fine grits. And your wood should be very hard and close grained. Looks awesome. A very different luster on the wood. Very warm to the touch. Something only a wood lover would see.

[Roger Chandler]

How well does the MT2 arbor work? I was concerned that without tailstock support it might slip out of the taper.. Aaron, I use a piece of all thread which is recommended by Beall to run through the headstock spindle and put a washer and wing nut on the hand wheel on the outer side of the headstock to keep ithe MT-2 snug in the spindle.It is called a draw bar, and will secure the MT-2 in the spindle.

[Edward Weingarden]

My Jacobs chuck on a morse taper came with the end drilled and tapped to accept a threaded rod. Cut a piece of wood (I use 1/4" ply) large enough to cover the end of the spindle coming off the left side of the headstock. Drill a hole for the threaded rod to go through; screw the rod into the morse tapper. Secure the Jacobs with a wing nut on the other end of the rod which will pull the morse tapper in when the nut is tightened against the piece of wood. The morse tapper will not slip out.

[Bob Bouis]

If you find yourself with a stiff, stitched wheel, you can just cut the stitches. Instant soft wheel.

As far as different buffing compounds "requiring" linen or linen-cotton -- that's clever advertising, but it seems to be something Beall invented to sell their wheels. Just my opinion of course, but I've never heard of anybody saying you had to have linen to buff anything else. There isn't even much of a difference between muslin and flannel. Usually it's just the thickness of the yarns that are used [plus flannel often has the nap raised], but the yarns on the outside of the wheel will be heavily abraded no matter what.

[Thomas Canfield]

I was lucky to buy buffing systems from Don Pencil when he had them, including both 8 and 12" shafts for 1 -1/4" thread and a 8" shaft for 1" thread. You can find the 8" but no one seems to be making the 12" now but it is really nice on large bowls/pieces for clearance. Direct mounting to lathe drive is the easiest and also gives variable speeds for different buffing conditions. The #2 MT drive can come loose when buffing and the 3 wheel on one shaft is marginal for small items like pens, but useless for larger items like bowls. The threaded shaft has a 3/8" thread for mounting wheels or buffs. The 8" wheels are good for larger pieces, and the "buffs" (2, 3, 4" etc) are good for interior, but I have made and like smaller wheels (3, 4, and 6") for smaller bowls and similar. The Beale Tripoli compound has worked well for me for initial buffing prior to oil coating, and after each coat of oil including final coat at about 1800 rpm. I usually skip the white diamond and then use Renaisance as final wax at about 1200 rpm. The heavier/coarser linen works best with Tripoli and the soft linen for the wax. Elevator bolts (large flat head from Fastenal) work better than carriage bolts with round head. Welcome to the buffing age.

[John K Jordan]

How well does the MT2 arbor work? I was concerned that without tailstock support it might slip out of the taper.

The beale MT2 arbors are drilled and tapped for a drawbar but I have never used one. I insert the arbor into the spindle taper and push while giving it a twist. This has always held fine, very quick, and comes out with another twist.

I did buy two extra arbors, one for each buffing wheel. This saves a huge amount of time when swapping wheels. You can also turn a wooden cylinder, install a threaded insert for a bolt to hold the buffing wheel, and mount the cylinder in a chuck. I have one Frank Penta made for me which is about 8" long, a nice extension for some pieces.

I do NOT like the system with three buffing wheels mounted on one long shaft. For me there is not enough clearance for some pieces.

As for the compound, I use what came with the Beale wheels - a reddish rouge, fine "white diamond", and wax. I apply compound or wax VERY sparingly to the wheels. I do not use the white diamond on dark wood that can hold and show the white particles in the pores.

JKJ

[robert baccus]

I've been making and using buffing wheels for many years. Buy a #2 spindle for each wheel. I use only red rouge if needed and go to liquid auto buffing coimpounds after that. They do not burn and come in various grits. Also liquid auto carnuba waxes are great and burn proof. There are even compound/carnuba mixes(liquid) that are time savers. Forget the 3 wheels on a shaft unless you turn pens ect. Also you can do all your compounding and waxing while the piece is still on the lathe-especially larger pieces. An extension for the spindle sure is handy for this.

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks, Roger. I looked at that before and didn't notice the 4" kit. Unfortunately, I already order the wheels through Craft Supply. Not that I really paid more for them. The three wheel set is the same price on both sides. But I could have gotten the compounds with them at the same time. *shrug* oh well... I can pick those up at my local tool store.

How well does the MT2 arbor work? I was concerned that without tailstock support it might slip out of the taper. I was thinking about drilling a hole for the arbor into the end of a spindle blank, gluing a nut in to match the threads on the arbor, and put either a tenon (for chucking) or tapping (1x8 for my lathe) on the other end. Obviously tapping would be challenging because I'll need to find a thick enough piece of stock to allow the threads to be cut into face grain (and also I don't know if I have a 1x8 tap at my disposal). Another thought was to do something similar with steel pipe to make something similar to the hold fast adapter. Or maybe just mount it in a Jacob's chuck (which of course would have the same issues as the MT2 taper)? Not sure what my options might be until I get the wheels...

If you got the 3-wheel set on the long mandrel, be sure it fits tightly in your spindle. Tailstock pressure is not enough, and the mandrel isn't really drilled for a drawbar. For whatever reason, it didn't perfectly fit my older Jet 1236, and scarred both the mandrel and the lathe spindle.:( I tried a second mandrel, same problem, and finally went to the individual 4" wheels on the screw-on-the-spindle adapter. Beall was great about helping me with the problems.

[Aaron Craven]

If you got the 3-wheel set on the long mandrel, be sure it fits tightly in your spindle. Tailstock pressure is not enough, and the mandrel isn't really drilled for a drawbar. For whatever reason, it didn't perfectly fit my older Jet 1236, and scarred both the mandrel and the lathe spindle.:( I tried a second mandrel, same problem, and finally went to the individual 4" wheels on the screw-on-the-spindle adapter. Beall was great about helping me with the problems.

I didn't. I primarily want to use it with bowls, so I got individual 4" round wheels. I thought about the bowl buffs, but the wheels were cheaper. I may one day go back and get the bowl buffs too.

[Bob Bouis]

Also liquid auto carnuba waxes are great and burn proof. There are even compound/carnuba mixes(liquid) that are time savers. Forget the 3 wheels on a shaft unless you turn pens ect. Also you can do all your compounding and waxing while the piece is still on the lathe-especially larger pieces. An extension for the spindle sure is handy for this.

All the auto carnuba waxes I looked at had silicone in them, which popular opinion holds to be a no-no. Are the ones you're using silicone free, and, if so, can you recommend some?

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I have polished my turnings for many years already, no Beall around then, I always have bought the buffing wheels that you can buy in automotive stores, and made some large ones myself.

The store bought ones you can change some by cutting the stitched threads so you get a softer wheel.

The ones I made I used different materials and combined it, like linen and cotton and flannel.

I also went for separate wheels that I can hold in a chuck, so all have arbors for that, especially for larger bowl there is not enough room on a lathe and so I added a drill chuck to an electric motor.

I use a still good chuck from a drill that was burned out, with a sleeve that fit the motor and the chuck, the buffing motor can be clamped on a bench or stored away easily.

With bowls still held on the lathe I use a drill and polish/buff right on the lathe, both the inside and outside can be done that way.

Two large fender washers and a bolt will make an arbor to clamp the buffing wheel that than can be held in either the drill or the buffing motor, works for me :)

I do use the polishing compound bars like Beall has, the more liquid stuff makes a mess.

With a good coating on the pieces that close the grain there is no problem using either the rouge or diamond compounds, as for the carnauba wax I don’y use it often and only sparingly on some pieces that are non-food use.

Here a couple pictures of my parts and pieces that I use and have accumulated over the years.

341178 341179 341180 341181 341182 341183

[Aaron Craven]

Thanks for the pictures, Leo. I had thought about the cheap buffing pads, but wasn't sure and figured the price wasn't too bad to get a start with proven materials. When the time comes to get replacements, I'll probably give them a shot.

I do hope you took the key out of the chuck on that first pic before turning it on :p

Purely out of curiosity, does buffing without any compound (just bare fabric) do anything useful?

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Sorry Aaron, I never tried that, but I would not expect anything from that.

Oh and as the picture said, the buffer was parked there out of the way, so no chance turning it on with the chuck key in it, I just kept the key with the buffer that way.

[Aaron Craven]

...Oh and as the picture said, the buffer was parked there out of the way, so no chance turning it on with the chuck key in it, I just kept the key with the buffer that way.

I figured as much... just wanted to rib ya. ;-)

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I figured as much... just wanted to rib ya. ;-)

I figured that :D

[Dick Strauss]

I run three 8" buffing wheels on a 36" long piece of all-thread (with the area between the buffing wheels covered by loose fitting pvc pipe to prevent the all-thread from ever coming into contact with the bowl rims, etc). One end of the all-thread is turned down to fit in my chuck jaws and one end is turned down to fit my live center. I can pop it in and out very quickly.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I run three 8" buffing wheels on a 36" long piece of all-thread (with the area between the buffing wheels covered by loose fitting pvc pipe to prevent the all-thread from ever coming into contact with the bowl rims, etc). One end of the all-thread is turned down to fit in my chuck jaws and one end is turned down to fit my live center. I can pop it in and out very quickly.

How do you buff the inside of a 4 or 5 inch deep bowl, as the OP was asking about doing that ??

[robert baccus]

Try buying compounds and waxes at auto paint supply stores. Best quality, variety and good advice--beats auto zone ect.

[robert baccus]

I always buy my compounds and waxes ect at Auto paint supply stores. Super quality(imagine screwing up a paint job on a Porshe) good variety and advice. Liquid compounds are almost burn proof unlike solid wax/compounds. Also they do not build up and gum up like the solids do. They do not carry oils or poly's however.

[Marvin Hasenak]

I take bolts and cut the heads off and hold the buffing wheel with 2 nuts and 2 washers. I use my collet chuck on the lathe told hold the bolt end of the wheel. I can also use a drill chuck with a drawbar or held in place with a live center. They easily store in ziplock bags along with the various compounds that I use.


341327

I buy 90% of my buffing supplies from Caswel Plating. I think they have the best selection of any place to get quality wheels and compounds.

[Rich Aldrich]

I use renaissance wax instead of carnauba. If you do wax, you might want to try it. I like the finish better than carnauba.

[Justin Stephen]

I use renaissance wax instead of carnauba. If you do wax, you might want to try it. I like the finish better than carnauba.

Same. I use Tripoli and RenWax only.

[Doug Rasmussen]

Reading most of the posts in this thread, it's not entirely clear to me if you folks are buffing raw wood. Or, is this a process to apply wax finishes only? Or, is this to "shine" up finishes like lacquers, etc.?

[Justin Stephen]

Reading most of the posts in this thread, it's not entirely clear to me if you folks are buffing raw wood. Or, is this a process to apply wax finishes only? Or, is this to "shine" up finishes like lacquers, etc.?

I never buff raw wood, personally.

[Aaron Craven]

Reading most of the posts in this thread, it's not entirely clear to me if you folks are buffing raw wood. Or, is this a process to apply wax finishes only? Or, is this to "shine" up finishes like lacquers, etc.?

I've never buffed any wood! :D

That said, my intention is to use this primarily on cured oil finishes and maybe some film finishes (such as poly). I am curious what the result might be on bare wood, though.

[Dane Riley]

Oily woods can be buffed to a glossy shine bare, even without wax. I have never tried it on dry open pored woods.

[robert baccus]

Really hard woods-tropicals, closed grain woods ect. really look better just buffed with carnuba and a buffing compound of a like color. There is no change of color. Ren wax is great stuff over a finish however it does not seem to fill pores and grain like thicker carnuba. Mu fav. wax is a blend of 3 parts carnuba to one of bees wax thinned with a bit of pure gum turpentine to suit. It was the preferred finish in the Louise 14th furniture makers and has looks great today unlike the various film finishes used then. Some really hard oily woods look best just buffed with a small bit of carnuba at very high speed.

[Thomas Canfield]

I normally do buff raw wood with Tripoli prior to applying a Danish oil blend finish system. It seems to take a 400 grit sanding up to a much higher level, but does impart a little reddish tint from the wax to lighter woods. It was suggested by Elmer Adams, Big Island HI. Try it on some 400 sanded raw wood and see the difference.

[Doug Rasmussen]

I normally do buff raw wood with Tripoli prior to applying a Danish oil blend finish system. It seems to take a 400 grit sanding up to a much higher level, but does impart a little reddish tint from the wax to lighter woods. It was suggested by Elmer Adams, Big Island HI. Try it on some 400 sanded raw wood and see the difference.


That's interesting Thomas.

Googling on "Tripoli". "Brown Tripoli buffing compound is typically used for cutting and removing scratches from aluminum and stainless steel. This compound is also commonly used for bringing out a high luster on wood."

Are there finishing situations where the residue, the reddish tint, would be a problem?

[Marvin Hasenak]

I normally do buff raw wood with Tripoli prior to applying a Danish oil blend finish system. It seems to take a 400 grit sanding up to a much higher level, but does impart a little reddish tint from the wax to lighter woods. It was suggested by Elmer Adams, Big Island HI. Try it on some 400 sanded raw wood and see the difference.


You are sealing the wood before applying your finish. Your finish will lack durability, it is like apply a finish over wax. Buffing compounds are made of the abrasives and held together with grease binders.

[Dick Strauss]

How do you buff the inside of a 4 or 5 inch deep bowl, as the OP was asking about doing that ??

Leo,
Where does the OP ask about buffing the inside of 4 or 5" deep bowls prior to my previous post?

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo,
Where does the OP ask about buffing the inside of 4 or 5" deep bowls prior to my previous post?

Quote OP
I've had a few bowls recently that didn't have quite the sheen I wanted (primarily on oil finishes), so I've decided to pick up some buffing equipment. I'm not a big fan of wax for most items, so I'll probably skip the carnauba step (though I'm buying all three wheels in case I change my mind). I still need to pickup some compounds and a mount (I'm thinking of creating my own mount instead of buying one).

He does want to polish bowls, not pens or such things, a bowl is quickly 4 or more inches deep.

[Thomas Canfield]

You are sealing the wood before applying your finish. Your finish will lack durability, it is like apply a finish over wax. Buffing compounds are made of the abrasives and held together with grease binders.

Elmer told me in telcon 5-10-08 that the Danish Oil blend tended to melt any wax residue that remained after the Tripoli buff and did not change the final finish. I have been using the process since shortly after that, and the final finish (after about 4 to 6 coats of oil/buffing and final wax) does give a very hard finish that holds up. Biggest thing is to allow ample time to dry before next step.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

You are sealing the wood before applying your finish. Your finish will lack durability, it is like apply a finish over wax. Buffing compounds are made of the abrasives and held together with grease binders.

I do and have used tripoli (the red bar) and then use the diamond (the white bar) it does remove pretty well all of the tripoli, and then apply Polymerized Tung oil on the bowl, never had a problem with my finish, and have still several bowls here that we use that are some 20 or more years old.

Remember the finishing oil will take any left over polishing wax (if any) and mix that in with the finishing oil, as the polishing bar wax (very little really) does not make a hard finish and is readily absorbed in the finishing oil as I use it, that is my experience with that.

[Marvin Hasenak]

Elmer told me in telcon 5-10-08 that the Danish Oil blend tended to melt any wax residue that remained after the Tripoli buff and did not change the final finish. I have been using the process since shortly after that, and the final finish (after about 4 to 6 coats of oil/buffing and final wax) does give a very hard finish that holds up. Biggest thing is to allow ample time to dry before next step.
If the Danish oil melts the grease binders, the grease is then included with your Danish oil, that compromises your finish. The grease doesn't evaporate, in fact some of it will be stuck in the pores of some woods. The grease mixes with your Danish oil, so that you are now apply a grease Danish oil mix.

I make game calls, they are nor shelf sitters, I tried the buff of raw wood. The finish wear off a lot faster that finishing raw wood. Some of my duck calls will be out in the mud and water environment everyday during the season. On the test calls I did, I had to refinish all at least once during the season. some of them twice in one season.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

If the Danish oil melts the grease binders, the grease is then included with your Danish oil, that compromises your finish. The grease doesn't evaporate, in fact some of it will be stuck in the pores of some woods. The grease mixes with your Danish oil, so that you are now apply a grease Danish oil mix.

I make game calls, they are nor shelf sitters, I tried the buff of raw wood. The finish wear off a lot faster than finishing raw wood. Some of my duck calls will be out in the mud and water environment everyday during the season. On the test calls I did, I had to refinish all at least once during the season. some of them twice in one season.

I can hardly believe that there is a measurable difference of standing up to the environment with a good cured finish over “raw” wood against a polished wood with the same well cured finish.

The thing is that the Tripoli polish has just enough wax in it to keep the polish powder into a hard bar shape, using that to polish a piece there is not a thick layer of polish on the piece, actually there is probably hardly any polish left on the piece.

Then when using a oil finish that very small amount that is there will be mixed in with the finishing oil, let sit for a short while, and then basically everything gets wiped off of the piece, the oil and also whatever minuscule amount of wax there is in it, is wiped off as well, and like I said before, the pieces we use here every day for many years have never shown a finish problem at all.

Anyway I am not about to change my way of finishing my products, as the finish on them have stood op well and is looking good, it is protecting the wood from every day abuse in the kitchen :)

I have had only 2 pieces brought back to me, to ask if I would/could refinish them, one was a Black Walnut bowl that got sanitized in the dishwasher :eek:, but it did survive that treatment ;), the other one was an Oak bowl where the MIL of the client, placed a bouquet of flower that the client had brought home from a wedding party, in the bowl and filled it with water :eek:, found only a week or better later in a sad state, the bowl was fine the finish and look not so much :rolleyes:

[Doug Rasmussen]

Curiosity got me, I called Beall to ask about the buffing of raw wood with the various compounds. Mr Beall wasn't available so the lady told me what she knew of it. The impression I came away with was this is meant for "renewable" type finishes, oils and waxes, and not for more permanent finishes like lacquer. She spoke of how easy it is to redo the buffing if your finish becomes water spotted.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Curiosity got me, I called Beall to ask about the buffing of raw wood with the various compounds. Mr Beall wasn't available so the lady told me what she knew of it. The impression I came away with was this is meant for "renewable" type finishes, oils and waxes, and not for more permanent finishes like lacquer. She spoke of how easy it is to redo the buffing if your finish becomes water spotted.

Well I got curious as well and started looking, found this from the Beall tool co, should read it if interested.

But just in case heres a small part of it.

341709

http://www.bealltool.com/pdfs/woodbuff.pdf

[Russell Neyman]

I wrote a lengthily article on buffing systems that appeared in this newsletter that might be helpful.

http://www.opcaaw.com/newsletters/apr_16.pdf